Harehunter

If you enjoyed A3 that much, you should really like A1 and A2. The game engine is very similar, with multilevel dungeons, Tower of Magi, boat rides, adventure and great storytelling if you take the time to talk to everyone. Personally I prefer the outdoor/town layout better than the two level world of A4-6. But that's just me.

Perdona me. Admittedly, three times through Exile 1 and 2, and twice through Exile 3 and Avernums 1 - 3 may seem casual to some. And I did play around the BoE circuit for a time, while I was analyzing the scenario files and writing my own version of the editor. I admit my style is unorthodox, but it is what worked best for me (1: QP-Q4). I have always found my strength in unorthodoxy. And the rules have changed drastically in Avernum 4-6. I have only truly played through A4 twice and 5-6 only once, before I went on an intensive mapping campaign, while struggling with the onset of Parkinson's Disease and still trying to perform my duties as a Database Administrator 50 hrs per week. It was only this year, when I changed neurologists, that I found a treatment that really works enough to become engaged again in these forums. I am probably confused as to where those 'freebie' points came from; I just know that during one play through A4, I had trained my priest/mage to level 18 priest, and the next time I checked his stats he was level 19. Where did the extra point in skill come from? Meanwhile, my mage/priest had also picked up an extra point in mage skill. Que pasa dude? I also noticed similar phenomena with other traits on my fighters. I have noted before that I rely heavily on equipping the best items I find in the game, and there is a plethora of items that give bonuses in a lot of skills. Somewhere my natural warrior got an extra couple of points in blademaster. Yes I had equipped a singing rapier for a time, but that was now in the hands of my priest+. Upon your suggestion to review the Strategy Central pages, I quickly found more confusion about untrained skill levels. Further down more confusion ensues. Interestingly, I found no explanation offered for these observations. Curious minds want to know. Shall we resurrect that thread?

Quote: If you do the math, you end up saving far more skill points by being a slith/nephil. I never bothered doing the math. I know it is out there to be referenced, but I always became frustrated every time I ran into a situation where one or more PC was useless or ineffective. Early weaponry and armor was not effective enough fighting 'pure' warriors no matter how high I concentrated on str and melee/pole. So I experimented with ranged weapons. It took a serious investment in dex and bows before I could overcome the weakness of early bows (Bleeping missed again!) and thrown weapons are not much better. Found that the priest spell smite did more damage with 99% hit chance and if you start with level 5, you don't have to buy the early spells, so I went with that. It was also convenient as the dickens having the extra healers in the group and the additional spell points to sling around. I don't understand the problem getting blademaster. Elite warrior gets you that off the bat and even at the lowest level it is a good multiplier to combat skills. Once a certain level is reached it increases and at some point you can begin to train it, even without training in both weapons styles. As for mage/priest skills complementing each other, I mean that as you rise through the levels you get freebie points in skills like spellcaster, magerery and m.efficiency. These freebie points are, I think, based on a combination of Int, mage or priest or both combined, and level. No skill points are required. I am not sure, but arcane lore is not affected as this skill is a 'shared' skill, like nature lore. Thusly I concocted my hedge wizard concept so that I am not reliant upon one or the other for a certain skill. I do take advantage of the freebie points you get for pure spirit and natural mage. Admittedly, much of my style evolved in playing the Exile where some of the really cool spells were, such as divine thud, null fields, field of blades, and one of my favorites, avatar. The first three Avernums were essentially re-covers of the Exile games, so my style did not change much. Av4-6 are significantly different, but since my style still worked, I never bothered adapting to the new features available. Old dogs can learn new tricks, if they aren't stubborn like terriers.

Quote: Tool Use is left at 9. Nimble Fingers will boost by 6, and somewhere there's equipment that'll boost it by 3 more, according to Harehunter. Look for Nimble Gloves (+2) and a Tinker's Bauble (+1) to augment tool use. Equip only when necessary.

I'm not truly racist, but I tend not to use slith or nephil. Sure they get bonus points in pole and bows respectively, but I always considered their XP penalty to be more of a liability later in the game. I like to keep that penalty as low as I can, no greater than 18%. For my style of play it works out best to gain as much XP per encounter as I can so I can raise levels faster to get Skill points to increase skills. Gaining a higher skill level boosts the effectiveness of all traits. As I rise through the levels, reaching for strength and melee above level 15 seems to be less important than reaching for a high skill level. That and the use of all the special arms and armor are what I find works for me. By the time I reach level 30 my fighter is pretty much an armored tank. My #2 fighter/thief is strong enough with pole weapons to render as much damage as my tank. Adding priest skills to my mage will increase his spell points as much as mage skills, and also affects the freebie points in spellcaster, magery and magical efficiency the same way. The same goes for adding mage skill to my priest. Now I have two artillery batteries instead of a mortar platoon and one battery. Of course the higher skilled spells go only to the PC specializing in that class. Raising a mage to above level 15 priest is too expensive, and vice versa for the priest. But by the time I've reached this level they are both 20 Int and 15 spellcaster. I forget about magery and m.efficiency as I have items equipped to modify those characteristics. I also use items to boost priest and mage skills so I don't really have to train as many levels in the alternate skill. I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one. I have tried to play 'pure' skill sets and I have always found them wanting. I guess it is pretty much a matter of style.

Quote: I've dumped all knowledge elixirs to my dual wielder since he's gimped from the tool use points. That is what I usually end up doing. You need one PC with at least 12 tool use toward the end, but it gets more and more expensive as you go along. And you definitely can't neglect your fighting skills or else you end up with a PC who is useless in combat. Knowledge brews are the only way to do both.

Verrry eenterresting. This sounds like it would be worth trying in many such instances.

There are a few reasons I """dilute""" my fighters with priest spells. 1) At some point in time they need ranged weapons. When you are stuck on an elevator getting bombed by giants, all the strength and melee and blademaster do you no good. Either train in bows, or train in priest. With the investment required to have any effect, bows is just as expensive as 5 priest, 5int which is not as strong as your priest will give, but it's better than sitting on your arse waiting to get a chance to use that fancy blademaster. Why priest as opposed to bows? Which course gives you the greater range of abilities? Ranged physical damage, or ranged cold damage + heal + bless + disruption damage: your choice. 2) Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems that Jeff's AI machine targets my priest above even my mage. Having only one PC able to heal has always been a liability in every game I have played. With multiple PC's able to cast heal I avoid that problem. It's either that or lug around a bunch of potions, which I prefer to use as cash. It also serves to distract your opponent to shift its attack from your low armored, low HP priest to your highly armored High HP fighter that is casting (granted a low powered) smite spell. "Hey, leave that guy alone! I'm the one you want!" 3) When assaulting a fort that has a gauntlet to run before you get to the entrance, I prefer to snipe at the archers one by one as I pass. I'm going to have to face them sooner or later, it may as well be sooner while I only have to face them one by one, instead of as a group with other fighters backing them up. 4) I like to approach each battle with a simple analysis: what is their greatest strength and how do I defend against it, and what is their greatest weakness and how do I exploit it. In many of Jeff's situations you will find that a monster has only one particular weakness, say a lich or vampire, which is, in a highly specialized party as you suggest, vulnerable to only one PC's ability. The other members of your party are not equipped to contribute significantly in the offense. In Av5 there is one pylon that presents four distinctly vulnerable entities. With a specialized party this challenge kicks my butt, but with a party with specialized skills along with some cross-training I survive pretty handily. I train my team more like a special forces team. Every member has a specialty, but there is at least one other member who can fill in should the one member be wounded or killed. Everyone knows first aid, Everyone knows hand to hand. There will be more than one weapons expert, and more than one demolitions expert. Find your enemies weakness and exploit it. A mine field will not stop your enemy, but it will slow them down enough so you can kill them. A weak attack will do more damage than no attack, and it will make a difference in the end. Essayon.

Sounds like you have got a working plan. Not quite my style, but it could be very effective. You'll need to carry potions to compensate for having only one healer in your group. I don't usually add First Aid to my party, but in Av5 and 6 it seems to work better than in previous games. Only a few points need to be added. Good luck and happy hunting!

I usually run with 2 fighter/priests (1 natural warrior, one heavy tool use), one priest/mage (pure spirit) and one mage/priest (natural mage). Preparing for combat is started with fighter 1 bless, fighter 2 protect, priest/mage haste himself, mage/priest haste himself, then bless again, protect again, haste fighter 1 and 2, leaving my mage/priest two spells to caste. Should someone need healing, any one can do it. It depends on the particular battle on who I pick for the task; what is the major vulnerability of the monster I am fighting. If it is physical damage, then the fighters concentrate on that, while the priest/mage does the healing. If the monster is resistant to physical, but vulnerable to fire, the fighters act as blockers, healing themselves, while my two spell casters flame its butt. As for the compounding of haste and slow, I find that whenever fighting an enemy mage, if I have only one haste spell cast on myself, one slow spell will cause me to be slowed, but if I cast two haste spells, it takes two slow spells cast on me to take effect. It also seems to work the other way when I cast multiple slow spells on mages. They cast haste on themselves, and they only become unslowed, but not hasted. More than two slows on an enemy does not make any difference. As you point out, it does not make them any slower, but it does reinforce the spell with regards to being able to undo the spell. The thing I like about Acid Spray is that it lasts for many rounds. I hit them once or twice, then hit them with something else, while the acid continues to work. Most enemies are vulnerable to acid even though they be resistant to other damage and serves as an extra attack per round. The amount of damage may not be that great in your opinion, but IMHO anything that add to the amount of damage in one round is worth doing. I am a strong adherent to the combined arms philosophy. If I could deploy air strikes in Avernum I would. As it is, I settle for Armored Infantry, light infantry, combat support with light artillery, and heavy artillery. If an opponent is only vulnerable to physical damage, then even the cooks and medics will become infantry, if that is what it takes to win.

Spray Acid cast multiple times in a single round can be very powerful. Two slows on a monster can really give an advantage to your fighters to get extra rounds to kill it. Haste only affects one PC at a time. Two spell casters can get all members of your party hastened more quickly. Lightning Spray is quite powerful for your mid-level mage. Two castings of it in one round can be very effective. There is a parallel discussion on this topic on the Avernum 5 board. I won't replicate it here.

Quote: Jeff in his last few games emphasized boss fights where one damage type would be better than all the others. Some fights were primarily physical damage and others were a certain spell damage either fire, cold, or magical (energy). And that is why I cross train my party. Having all four PC's being able to contribute at least to some degree shortens the battles against these single-vulnerability monsters. For example: Sure the Smite attacks of my fighters may be weak, but if that is the only way to affect damage against a particular monster then it is way better than just standing around flailing uselessly at its complete resistance to physical damage.

This is about the point I find that having your priest learn some of the more powerful attack spells that the mage can wield comes in very handy. You don't have to advance him very high, just enough so he can lend a hand with your ranged attacks. I also find that having your mage learn priest spells improves your chances of surviving. At some point in time you will need more than one PC who can Unshackle Mind or cast the Major healing spells. Let your fighters bless themselves. Two or three Blessings can stack up and really improve your combat effectiveness, and letting your fighters do that frees up your priest, who now should also be able to Haste your party as well. It doesn't hurt to have your fighters be able to heal themselves as well. You don't have to invest heavily in Int and Priest. Level 5 in both should be sufficient. It's either that or you'll have to start lugging around a bunch of potions. I prefer to sell those for $$.

Quote: a weak attack, that does less than cheap single target spells like Smite. Like I said, use weak attacks only when feasible, say when some underling out flanks your fighters. Again, this tactic is only meant to conserve spell points, and energy potions, on long missions. I don't use archery much because it takes so many skill points to make it effective, vs using melee weapons (at least in my experience). And I don't seriously consider this training until I have maxed out my mage/priests in their primary skill, and have gotten to the point that it takes two or three levels to acquire enough skill points to add more Int, Spellcraft, etc. It takes that long to acquire the really good weapons for your fighters so you have a good hand-me-down to pass on. Keep on the lookout for light armor with good defensive capability. You'll need those regardless of how you play. As for priest skills with my fighters, I start with the level I need for smite, then concentrate my early skill points in their combat skills. Smite and repel spirit are useful until you get really strong and you get access to weapons that aren't more of a liability than knives or cheap shortswords. Don't increase priest skill or Int until it starts getting expensive skill point wise for all the other combat skills. I use magic a lot, and having a few spell points available for blessing and healing from my fighters comes in handy. Since my lead fighter starts out with Natural Warrior, he gets 2 Parry and 2 Blademaster to start out with. Adding strength and melee makes this level strong enough to be effective enough. The skill points you would spend on poles can be used more effectively on other skills. Tool use goes to my second fighter (poles). Start out with nimble fingers for a couple of points to start with, and keep any items that augment it for when you need up to 3 more levels. I am not fond of pole weapons, but some of the best weapons in the game are poles. Meh, make me an offer I can't refuse. Brocktree is correct that in order to achieve the highest access to special skills you have to specialize. However, I think I can plow through a tough encounter more quickly with a party that has a fair amount of cross-training. I specialize to a degree, but not to exclusion.

Quote: Maybe I'm missing something, but why would I want to buy weapon skills for my spellcasters? Apart from a few in bows/thrown perhaps. I have found that at some point in the game you will have acquired more magic weapons than your warrior can wield. Rather than selling the really useful ones, give them to your spell casters. Train in melee to level 3 or 4, along with a few levels of strength and dexterity. The magical ability of the weapon compensates for the otherwise weak fighting skills. Having a mage/priest use melee when feasible conserves spell points for those times you really need them. As for having combined mage/priests (also known as hedge wizards) I like having two of them on my team; one with true spirit specializes in the priest spells, but knows many of the mage ones, while the other is a natural mage, who knows many of the priest spells. Training in both disciplines will add to your spell point total as well as any of the other special skills such as magery and spellcraft. And there is no need to concentrate arcane lore or nature lore in any one person. Spread it around; what matters is the total level of lore knowledge in your party. Tool use must be concentrated in one PC; keep all items that add to the skill and equip them only when needed. I am also fond of adding a few levels of priest skill to my fighters. At lower skill levels I find smite more useful than archery and repel spirit is very effective. At higher skill levels, fighting skills cost increasingly more skill points to invest in, but priest skills are cheap. I let my fighters bless, heal and cure themselves if needed, thus freeing up my two priest/mages to concentrate their attacks on the the enemy magic users. I usually end up training my front rank to use divine fire. This is a bit of overkill, but 4x divine fire can really light up the landscape.

It is still good to know that I am in good company. Some nimrods deserve a good thrashing, and you guys are the best. Speaking about thrashing, did you happen to catch the one about the woman in Alvin Tx trying to stop a bunch of thieves.

Oh no! It must be an attack by a Comma-Chameleon. Look out Boy George. But seriously, folks, if I parse his paragraph correctly, the point is this: The Exile trilogy is a game well worth the money for purchasing the license. I have noticed a few requests in the past from would-be pirates for a licensed copy of Exile, but in every case he/she was soundly thrashed verbally for even thinking of pirating the game. It is a good sign that the SW community is a group of people with such good ethics.

Just to add weight to this discussion, or to add fuel to the fire as the case may be, check out this discussion with respect to the definitions. Depending on one's perspective it may shed some light on the meaning of these terms, or it may bring forth a deluge of discussion.

I also have a .hlp file in my Visual Basic BoE Scenario Editor. This is the one that came with the original game. I guess I need to update it to conform to my layout, but the information on how to use the special nodes is still accurate. If you have a Windows virtual environment, you might take a look at it. I have taken a major departure from the layout that Jeff took, but IMHO I think the interface is a bit more intuitive, and the ability to describe your Stuff Done Flags and see those descriptions in your node editor makes it easier to use the program.

Quote: When dragging scrollbars (such as the scrollbar for the list of monsters), I would like the position of the list to change on-the-fly, instead of going to the specified spot on the list only after I release the scrollbar. I tried what I think you are talking about, and my lists scroll nicely. I am using Windows XP. Are you on a Mac?

This is what I call my Mad Monk Squad: 1) Fighter/Priest (Armored Infantry); elite warrior: This character is my tank. Give this guy all the heavy armor, strength, endurance, melee with at least level 3 priest. 2) Fighter/Priest (Combat Engineer); nimble fingers, strong will: This character gets a bit less in the combat skills, but get high skill in unlocking traps. Also starts with at least level 3 priest. If you like, give this one pole skill instead of swords. 3) Priest/Mage (Combat Support); Pure spirit: Give this guy level 4 priest, level 4 mage. Intelligence and other such skills are his strength. Don't forget to add to his endurance or his hit points will stay low. I also like to train a little in melee (which needs a bit of strength and dexterity). If the guy can swing a sword, it can save a few spell points. 4) Mage/Priest (Artillery); Natural mage: Again start out with level 4 in priest and mage. High intelligence and other such skills. Again, I like to train a little bit in combat skills. While building up on their combat skills in my two fighters is priority, I like to increase the priest skill to the level required for Divine Fire. (Armored Infantry does get too use mortars.) It also doesn't hurt for them to be able to bless, heal and cure. The Priest/Mage gets bonus ability with priest spells, but don't forget to keep his mage skills up. Fireblast is too a spell to have only one PC capable of using it. As for the Mage/Priest, he also gets bonus ability in mage spells, but having the ability to cast strong healing spells is very handy. This party is about as multidimensional as you can get. Needless to say, it is a very expensive team to build. Take every opportunity to gain experience points, and gain levels. My team has a strong addiction to Knowlege Brew and other such items. As for archery, thrown weapons and the like, I tend not use them. With a level 3 or 4 skill, all my characters can cast smite, which has a higher damage potential than archery. Granted, archery can be used effectively, but it takes a lot in skill levels to be useful. Priest levels are expensive too, but you get the added benefit of the healing spells. No need to lug around a bunch of potions.

Jeff is very good about remembering who is licensed. This applies to discounts you can get on some games based on which games you've already paid for.

!Headline News! Avernum has been invaded by the Jabberwocky. The Great Portal is overrun as disaster looms.

Sounds like you might startle the heck out them. When I was growing up, I always had assigned chores. I did them without being told to. Yes, I got an allowance as well, but I would have done those chores anyway, out of love for my family. I learned that taking responsibility will earn you respect. With the respect you earn more freedom of access and the opportunity to take on more responsibility. By reaching for that additional responsibility, the respect grows, and the opportunity to advance grows. That is how I got the dream job I have now. I absolutely love what I do, and I am being paid well to do it. People who succeed in life do so by working for it. And with success comes pride in a job well done. And what works in building a career works better with personal relationships. I have been married for 27 years. I treasure the relationship I have with my wife. How do I keep her around? I take every opportunity to help her out. She asks why, and I simply say "I love you". I never take her for granted. One Christmas many years ago I gave her a carpet cleaning machine. But that was not the gift. The gift is that it clean the carpets, but she does not have to use it. Every time I take it out of the closet and clean the carpets, I tell my wife "Happy Christmas". It's the gift that keeps on giving.

You mean they all went Puff?