Blurb

How do you check your reputation status while playing?

Originally Posted By: Also Sprach Alorael Alorael, who doesn't think that excuses the reviewer being a cad, buffoon, and pantywaist. Also possibly sub-literate. Insulting someone who isn't present is fun and rewarding! It isn't right to make fun of someone behind their back. However, because of the literacy question, I think it'll work. If the person can't understand what is being said about them, then it was never really said, right? (what?)

Also try and save up reputation questions for later when you may need a correction, e.g., Agent Alurha in IS, the captain in Minallah, Lel in Mera. If you turned in the servile in IS, then let the thahds in the workshop go, tell Agent Michelline about the Shadow Road but lie about the Trakovite Haven, etc. There is a more *scientific* approach via a formula floating around here somewhere. I don't understand script lingo so I can't be helpful in that regard, but there is a way to check your rep and maybe keep it balanced. Maybe someone will post about this. I misstepped trying to power game, too. I think I shouldn't have killed those serviles for their tunic. (And I talk about Astoria's morals being questionable! )

I wonder if that indie game Web site will be reviewing the game? Does anybody know the one I mean? Dang. They have reviewed other Geneforge games, and pretty favorably if I remember correctly. I used to like to swing by there occasionally and check out their reviews and try out their recommended games, but it's been a while. (I feel like such a dork that I can't remember the site now.) I know that Chris Holt did not *completely* ignore that this is an indie and therefore not out of one of the big houses, but I don't really think he gave that enough attention. There is a good side and bad side to independents. The lack of backing from a major game house is the obvious downside and accounts for lack of funds for fancy graphics and all the bells and whistles that come with it. The upside, as in indie films, is the freedom to create stories that aren't the standard commercial fare with the formulaic black/white, good guy/bad guy theme and that satisfying (if all too expected) good-guys-prevail ending. It's the thematic aspect that I wish had been more fully addressed. I guess that actually requires some sophistication, though. He does make some observations that I think new players might make when playing the game, so I think his review makes some good points. It can be really a tough game to play. However, I'm thoroughly perplexed by his inability to follow the storyline. Is it that hard to follow? Is it because I'm a Geneforge fan that I didn't have a minute's trouble with the plots and subplots? Or.. is it that you really need to be a reader to play these games?

I think there is evidence the reviewer did not finish the game. Most of the specific commentary has to do with the first section, like the odd comment about amnesia. Had I played the whole game, I doubt I'd even focus on the "guide" in the beginning and the dialogue early on. Also, as noted upthread, no mention of innovative creations like vlish or wingbolts. Jls, the inaccuracies in his review certainly do diminish his credibility. That said, I commend you for successfully finishing the game with a weak Shaping character. It became so tough for me that I could not do it myself. I tried an Agent, a Servile, a Warrior, and a Sorceress. It became painful to play with each and every one ... except the Sorceress was a bit easier thanks to some strategy help from a forum member here. I'll add my voice to your I'm-not-a-great-player chorus, but maybe I belong in the I'm-a-wimpy-player-but-I-like-to-play-anyway camp. Slarty, why play a Lifecrafter or a Shaper when you can play a Shock Trooper? Better health, more strength, and you get a boost in magic through items anyway. Okay, it's a female personna, so if that troubles, just use your cleverness and change the graphics.

Inaccuracies aside, I thought it was a fair review. A review offers opinions, so his take on the complexity of the storyline is just his outlook. That's what a reviewer does. Another reviewer might love that aspect. *shrug* I like that about all the Geneforge games. The gaming world has all varieties to offer. Those who just want hack-and-slash can surely find it out there. When the reviewer says you must choose a strong Shaper character, that's really not a duh moment on his part. He probably tried one of the characters with poor Shaping skills and fell flat on his behind like many here have. So, to me, his observation is dead on and he is giving sound advice. It took me multiple attempts at different characters to even understand how to play this game and to find a character I could win the game with. And it's a strong Shaper character. I have all the games in the series (although I only got halfway through G4), and I found myself sinking fast with some builds that would have worked in other GF games. I think Jeff made this game tough, which plays to the hard-core players among his fan base and possibly some new players who like a high difficulty level. It is supposed to be designed as playable by those new to Geneforge, but maybe it really isn't for a lot of people. I am fond enough of the games to really give it a shot. I respect the advice on this forum and am willing to take the time to absorb it. Honestly, I would have failed miserably without it. I'm not sure everybody would do what I did and go that extra step. As folks have already pointed out, there were some inaccuracies in the review. The encumbrance comment about the items in the pack stumped me. He must have had a real problem throughout the game with this misunderstanding. His comment about amnesia was confusing and also about his guide not talking in complete sentences and recovering from control by Shapers. What?? Does he refer to Mehken, who very quickly does begin to talk in complete sentences and who was not recovering from anything that I know of? Not to mention that the dialogue was perfectly understandable anyway, complete sentences or not. Nothing in the early game was difficult to comprehend. Also, his assumption about maxing creation stats may not be the best route to take (lots of essence involved, obviously), although I'm not sure how a new player would know this. I've enjoyed playing the game, but I have to say that I don't find it the most playable game and think it should be more balanced character-wise. You should be able to win with any character and I'm thinking maybe the average player would not be able to do this. I think if this game is further reviewed, it might encounter some other negative observations just based on this aspect. Again, I like it, but I can understand the negatives, too.

If you go to the Secret Laboratory from the Middle Shadow Road and explore, you will eventually be attacked by one of these nasty bugs. If you take down the lab, you'll find another three of them. They were created by the drakons to be released and multiply and eat anything and everything in their path.

G1 was the most heart-rending and compelling of the stories because of the abandonment theme. It was a great story! I'd like to see a prequel. Not my idea, as I've seen it mentioned here a couple of times. I think it would be awesome to have a what-led-to-the-abandonment story. It would be a return to simpler creations. No wingies, no rots. Maybe your first creation would be a fighting rat or an ornk.

Originally Posted By: Slarty The real explanation may be that Jeff wrote the endings, and Linda wrote some of the character dialogue in-game, or vice versa or some other permutation. Honestly, there really is a disconnect in many facets of the script versus what the endings show. The added bit in the Alwan ending about the Council not wanting to admit Astoria was right in some respects is also very strange. Does this tell the player they backed the wrong horse? I guess for the sake of the game and fairness to the player, I kind of feel like that statement really doesn't belong in a Shaper ending. The player has invested a lot of time in the game and deserves a strong ending for whatever sect they choose. The Alwan ending is still quite strong, but that statement in there just left me puzzled. I think G5 is a good game. It's not the most playable game in the series, as evidenced by the fact that so many people have had to restart the game after learning that certain characters just don't work like they used to. I would venture to say that some characters are so weak (due to massive nerfing in multiple areas) that only the very experienced and expert player can do them. But I digress... If I were to pinpoint a single problem in the storyline, it would be hands down the character of Astoria. I would rewrite her in a heartbeat. Okay, keep the Secret Access Road, as hard as it is to swallow. Surely, there are compelling reasons for committing such an act, but they are not revealed in the game. You can speculate why it needed to be done and justify or argue for or against it, but the script itself is not really enlightening, in my opinion. Her speech to the Council before they order the assault on Gazuki-Uss is so lame that I can't even buy that she has more influence with the Council, as it is stated that she does. I have been an Awakened groupie from day 1. But not in G5. The drakons taint the whole picture and Astoria disappoints. And another thing: why should Alwan be the only one who really treats the PC with respect? He's willing to be open-minded and not judge appearances from the moment you meet him. He's the strongest faction leader in the game. Astoria deserves to be just as strong. Okay, please don't be offended by what I'm saying here. I love the games. I think Jeff does a fabulous job. It's amazing the way he supports the player all through the game. Whenever you gain access to more advanced spells, along comes an item that will help you cast them. If you aren't able to get an ingredient in one place, he provides another outlet somewhere else. There are advantages item-wise to joining certain factions, but it balances out for the most part. Astoria's faction seems to be the most favorable for the more popular items due to the crystalline fibers, but that just means a slightly weaker shaping belt. What I'm saying is that there are things about the storyline that don't always match up and I don't remember feeling that way about the other stories.

Ha! I can imagine: "The doctor is busy at the moment, sir. A rotgroth will take your blood pressure after which drayk will be conducting your physical exam today." Very true, Thuryl. It really is about the power. After all, we're continually told that a good Shaper is an army unto him/herself. Telling folks with that kind of power that they won't be in charge is probably completely unrealistic.

Ghaldring's aims and values taint the Rebel movement. I don't blame the serviles in the movement for taking advantage of the protection he offers, but his presence is a hindrance. He's a blood-thirsty monster seeking only power and dominion over the "lesser" creations and humans. Maybe what I really believe would be somewhere in the middle of the Shaper/Rebel sides. I don't think Shaping is bad or should be abolished, so that leaves out the Traks for me. Taygen is mad. Ghaldring is not really a Rebel but a madman power-monger. There are definitely excellent arguments on both sides about whether Shaping should exist at all and whether it's a morally proper practice to Shape creations to serve. If it does exist, control is essential. Otherwise, what happens is what we see: regions filled with nasty rogues threatening the populace. I think Shaping is a highly specialized art and should be tightly controlled. So references to Shapers "hoarding all the magic" leave me a bit cold from that perspective. Assuming that Shaping will continue to exist ... there aren't any real shortcuts to becoming a Shaper. Gobbling canisters doesn't really work as it warps you to the point of being erratic, unpredictable, and homicidal. In the game, we meet several mages who either were rejected for Shaper training because of temperament or just couldn't cut it during training. It's probably a very good idea to ensure that those who do wind up as Shapers are the best of the best. But then we have the arrogance of the elite that comes into play toward "outsiders." Even the use of the word "outsiders" rankles. The PC keeps running into the "you're not a Shaper so you're a nobody" response just like everybody else does. The arrogance is where all the trouble started in the first place. If Shapers could simply have a role in society and not be the automatic rulers of the society, it would be ideal. You would still have the tight standards and they would be an elite sort of group, maybe similar to doctors (not a great analogy, but the best I would come up with), but not the governors of society. Slarty, you make some excellent points, as usual. The problem for me is that the endings don't really jibe with what goes on during the game. Astoria is never even taken to task for being a traitor during wartime, not in any scenario. Alwan deciding to allow serviles their own island is another unexpected twist. Where did that come from? It certainly isn't expected from anything he said. It makes him less of a hardliner than he appears. The endings are strange to me and really don't match the stories.

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon She really is more a rebel than she is a Shaper in the traditional sense. The only difference is that she is able to operate through more official channels, being a council member. Her methods are still disapproved of by the rest of the council, and she can only convince them to follow her by undermining them first. She really is a rebel in every other sense of the word. That plus the fact that I was forced to do terrible things for the rebellion simply to keep my reputation up with her faction. Probably my last favorite part of the new game. What would happen IRL if an event like the Secret Access Road was plotted by a member of a sitting government? Astoria is basically using insider information she has gleaned from both sides of the war to undermine her own people and effect an outcome to her liking. In fact, she causes the slaughter of her own people to justify that less people will die later if she gets her way and establishes the kind of peace she wants. When I saw Fort Rockfall, it made my stomach queasy. Who would want to follow someone like this? I would not. If Astoria had done the right thing and resigned her post, since she could no longer support the Shapers whom she was helping to govern, she would have a chance of being the *good guy*. That would be a faction I could join. An honest woman standing up for what she believes in and willing to forgo her position of power to do what she believes is right. As it stands, she retains her lofty position on the Council while lying, backstabbing, and causing casualties among her own people. She sits in her little fortress hiding from Shaper assassins supposedly totally unaware that drakons who hate her are ferrying wretched rogues in and out of her territory. These rogues are killing HER people. Is there an excuse for a governing official being so out of touch with her own region? And why do the drakons hate her? Well, try weakness. Remember what was said by drayks and drakons about Astoria? Weak. The drayk in Helft Ruins even disrespects her for not going after rogues on her own lands, even though that permits him to encroach and live in a destroyed Shaper building. Even these oddballs, loners, and villains don't respect her no matter what side she is on. Remember Alwan's quest for talks with Ghaldring? If you gave a weak answer to the attacking drakon, Ghaldring wouldn't give you the time of day. So Astoria is ineffective as a leader on either side. I know that life is not black and white and I don't believe the game should be, either. Where were the choices in G5 as far as factions go? I tend to be mostly Rebel leaning in these games, but there is a disservice to the Rebel side in this game because there is no *good guy* on their side. Alwan is clearly a *good guy* on his side. He would be someone I would respect whether I agreed or disagreed with his views. In G5, I only really respected the please-go-soon Takers, who really are just asking to live and be free. Give me a Takers faction here, and I'm a Rebel. As it is, I'm a combination of Shaper and Rebel in this game, depending on the circumstances, and wind up leaning Shaper because of the man who says what he means and does what he feels is right ... honorably.

I guess I was thinking it was the same thing, but I guess it isn't, eh? My vlish with zero intelligence wound up killing the errant roamer, which was charmed by one of those Beta bosses in the Okanava. I was surprised, actually. I never thought of Betas as *charmers*. (That game was never finished. Trying to play weak Agent with weak creations was too much por moi.)

I've had two creations go rogue and try to kill the rest of my party, but when I try to attack them, it's disallowed. I get a message along the lines of "you can't kill a charmed creation." What do you do to actually kill it? I thought it wasn't possible because it didn't work for me.

When I played, the door opened from the PF side when the Presence was in the eastern part of the core, but not before then. I tried it when the Presence was in the west and it didn't work.

DV, I'm sorry! I knew you were a boy. When I make vlishes, I tend to make them girls. Ack... misprint!

I'm playing my second time through after a couple of false starts. My first full time through (Lifecrafter), I had 22 intelligence and was still wanting. However, I did fine on the last battle because I had three green rots and two war trolls. He's a weak character without powerful creations. I tried a Sorceress character as a Shaper-type and it worked because I did put skill points into Shaping and massive amounts into intelligence. I did not finish that game. I have it saved. I got to the Dera Reaches with it and may revisit it later. It was a harder game for me to play. In each game I have also upgraded to higher tier creations as soon as I had the chance. The higher level creations make ALL the difference to survival. It was hard to do because I got sentimental about the clawbugs and the vlish from the first two regions. Currently, I'm playing as a Shock Trooper. I'm level 48 and have 26 intelligence (with items). I have three green rots (level 59), a war troll (level 54), a cryodrayk (L44), a wingbolt (L43), and a gazer(L47). I'm ready to go into the last battle. I think it will go fine because of the army she has. I know that sounds like an insane amount of intelligence, but the game has also been insanely easy to play compared to my other attempts. I had many false starts in this game because I didn't play correctly. It's harder than the other GF games, to me anyway. I based my builds in large part on the advice given by Delicious Vlish. I departed from his advice a bit when I tried different creations and decided to also go with Kryshakks (for a good long while) and a Wingbolt. I personally like all of the higher level creations, but my favorites are the green rots and the Wingbolts. Please take the time to read his most excellent threads and to read all the advice here by the veterans. There is also a very nice write up on the strategy thread for warriors and serviles, although I suspect I might find them too difficult to play. I'm not a super player like some here, but I have gotten one heck of a lot better just by spending skill points wisely and upgrading creations. My favorite character of those I've played is the Shock Trooper. Although magic is her weakest area, I don't see an appreciable difference in her spell-casting ability when compared to the Lifecrafter, especially with all the items available to boost stats. It's my personal recommendation for newbies and not-so-hot players like myself. The extra point you get to strength in the beginning makes the game go smoother. She's a little better at melee and missile, which also helps in the early game. (Sorry this is so long.)

Thanks for the info! I learned that destroying the Purity Agent makes the whole area hostile, but it doesn't matter at that point. I thought if they didn't see you at Kayar's Spire, they would stay friendly, but that's not the case, I guess.

Uh, it seems I was getting the two areas mixed up. Duh. Purity Workshop is where I killed whatshisname for Rawal. Killing Planton (sp?) did not make Zephyr O hostile, but would leveling the place do this? I'd really like those fibers, but I killed him before I got them.

I had to completely change this post because I was getting Purity Workshop mixed up with Kayar's Spire. Can anyone help me find where the Crystalline fibers are? Thanks.

Yeah, he gives the very nice Guardian Cloak. It may have been for the Gazuki-Uss quest.

Randomizer, is the Guardian Claymore accessible only to rebel sympathizers? I looked for it in the White Wastes, but I'm thinking maybe it's dropped by a Shaper soldier? Also, Tek's Spectral Dirk?

I am completely baffled how you could be at this point in the game and as low a level as you are. For experience, I think you might want to try to identify those areas you skipped. The walkthrough posted on the forum recently is a good start for you to have a good look at the various areas and determine what you might have missed.

I just replied to you, Thuryl and my response disappeared for some reason. If you play as loyalist, you can kill the serviles hiding in the northwest in Below Noyde's Pass. The lead guy drops the Thahdskin Tunic. They are the subject of a rebel quest, I believe. Do not offer to help them and then kill them. I found out the hard way that the swamp herbs folks in the south will go hostile if you do this. Just do the attack option and all is well. Randomizer, I really love the Quicksilver Bulwark but can't wear it with a weak Shaper character until the Talisman of Might comes along.

I agree, Thuryl. I was able to use it for a long time because of the Thahdskin Tunic with 2+ strength (playing as loyalist) and my current build is a Shock Trooper with that additional point in strength when compared to the Lifecrafter. I kept the Agent's Shelter around mostly because magic is weakest for the Shock Trooper and every magic point counts. However, the heavy crafted items had already necessitated a switch to the Clawbug Carapace (or whatever light shield you might want), but even with that, I couldn't wear the Mercuric Boots. The Puresteel Shield is well worth it for the 500 gold. Then, later, when you get the necklace with the 4+ strength, you can switch things up and sell the Puresteel Shield for a nice profit.