Emperor Tullegolar

Waylander: I would make the argument that the American founding fathers were not, in fact, fighting against their own government. The colonies had no representatives in parliament, and thus they were the equivalent of being ruled by a foreign government. As for your black and white scenario. Of course I would be willing to kill whitey in that situation. But now your just altering your original scenario to fit your argument. In the original scenario, my positions remain the same. As for option 4 attacking only targets of ‘strategic value’, just one question: how am I supposed to ‘strategically’ encourage prostitution? Control Group: Non-shaper humans make up the biggest fraction of the population. Creations are practically defaulted to be rebels if they can think freely. And shapers are far too unpredictable to be any sort of reference. Plus, the non-shapers humans are as close as you get to humans in the real world, and since our debate consists of issues from both worlds, they are the logical choice. Quote: Drakons are insane? I'd disagree. They just seem like reptilian forms of Barzhal. Uh, Barzahl was insane. But Tullegolar, insane is a relative term. No, Barzahl was quite insane. Quote: the drakons don't oppress diddly squat, and they most likely never will, as the Rebellion consists of far more than just the Drakons Everything in the game suggests otherwise. It is made clear in Geneforge 2 through 4 that drakons run everything and treat serviles and drayks like crap. As for consistency, sure there are all kinds of rebels, but all but the drakons get crushed by shapers, and the drakons don’t even try to help them. At least the Shapers make an effort to protect towns with civilians in them. As for help from Nazi Germany. This is another case where it makes a huge difference whether or not your oppressors are foreign. It's one thing to use a foreign nation like Germany to throw of a foreign invasion of another; Japan. However, I would not ask Germany to intervene in a civil war against my own government. Huge difference. That would only be asking for trouble. If Germany is fighting Japan, that will give you a chance to get back on your feet as your own nation. If you ask them to play a part in a civil war, however, they might not want that part to end when the war does. Do you understand the difference yet? Quote: deprivation of basic human rights, the suppression of all free and independent thought, and the practicing of cruel and inhumane experiments I object to this description of the Shaper regime. People are allowed to live freely, trade freely, and even practice magic freely. No experiments are practiced on the human population. The Shapers keep the world safe from what would otherwise be a horrifying wasteland if shaping were out of control. All they ask in return is total control over the shaping aspect of the world, nothing more. I fail to see the oppression people always speak of. Saying the Shapers are responsible for the rebellion is a stretch. Saying that many shapers allied with Barzahl is just incorrect. You keep saying that the Shaper regime has failed, but look at the games again: they are winning the war against the rebellion! Why? The drakons are too busy fighting amongst themselves and the human are to disordered to put up real resistance to them. The PC aside, the Shaper regime is better than the rebellion in every way, the only thing the rebellion had going for them was the element of surprise, and that is gone now. Saying that they have failed and so the rebellion must be superior is just crap. Quote: I can just imagine the WWII French denying the assistance of the Allies as they were being led to the gas chambers. "Nope, sorry, but we don't want your help. We'll take the evil we know over the evil we don't." They knew the Germans better than the English? The allies were evil? This is a terrible example... it makes no sense whatsoever.

Tarrasque, you missed an error in the edited quote.

I've suspected that for a while now. Some of his crap is just too good to be true.

There is a huge difference between when the oppressors are outsiders and when they are your own government. I suppose your right in that, if the American government itself was being oppressive like the Japanese one your describing, I would probably still revolt. The difference is, since I'm revolting against my own people, I would not pull out all stops. I would not want to hurt civilians and such because that would only lessen support for the rebellion itself. I would be much more tactful in my choice of targets when revolting against my own government, because it is a much more delicate situation than throwing off a foreign invasion. Do not say there is no difference, people would much sooner support an indigenous psycho dictator than a foreign anything. In the Geneforge war, I assume I'm a non-shaper human, because that is as close as it gets to a control group. Weighing the options, oppression under insane chaotic drakons or oppression under strict orderly Shapers, I'll always take the latter. The Shapers did not create the rebellion, why would you say that? Even if they did, how does that make the rebellion a better choice? I’ll take the evil I know over the evil I don’t know. Most people will.

The word of the day is plurality: the most votes but still less than 50%. In your analogy, are the Shapers represented by Japan? This makes the Shapers looks far worse than they really are. For one, the Shapers aren't a foriegn government like the Japanese would be in America. Also, I don't think the Shapers treat the people nearly as bad as the Japanese in your description. I know I'm nitpicking, but that explains the contradiction in my coices. I would go with the Shapers in the Geneforge war, but I would go with the nation not invading me in the hypothetical real world war. According to your analogy, those are two different sides.

Quote: Originally written by Good Canisters: ET, how would rebel shapers become drakon slaves? I base this assumption on the fact that in Geneforge 4, the human side of the rebellion (even with their geneforge) was crushed, while the drakon side fought on. The drakons are more powerful than the rebel humans in some way, be it physically or strategically. And, when the Shapers came to finish off Southforge, the drakons were nowhere to be found. They let the humans die because they thought they were weak and insignificant, and maybe they were. The rebellion relies too much on the drakons to ever be hospitable to a human like myself. Quote: Originally written by The Mystic: I'd eat you alive. No you wouldn't. You don't fight outside of computer games, remember? You can hide if you want, you may even succeed. But I reserve the right to call you a coward for sitting by and doing nothing while the innocent suffer and world falls apart around you.

Quote: He's saying that people in general are cowardly. Quote: Fear is effective and people have a tendency to keep their heads down during a storm. Yeah, try telling this nonsense to the people of Vietnam. Or Algeria. Or anywhere that was forced to undergo a long occupation. The example occupations I used weren't even as brutal as this hypothetical one sounds. I think you all underestimate the resolve of humans. Lets take me as an example. I am not a fighter. Despite the things I say, I would piss my pants in a real war. I would never fight willingly in places like Iraq, Vietnam, or even in wars worth fighting, like World War II. However, everything changes when your way of life is under attack. If I can't live the way I want to, suddenly pissing my pants doesn't seem like such a bad option. I can safely say I would be willing to fight and die to preserve the way I live right now. Living under the will of a foreign nation is as good as living as living as a slave, and I will not be a slave.

I would have no problem 'corrupting the minds of children.' How would it be corrupting them anyway if all your doing is telling them how evil the people that are invading your country are? I see no issues with that. Upon further consideration, I'm not sure I understand the "sell drugs' and 'encourage prostitution' parts. How does it help the resistance to screw up your own society? That part doesn't seem to make much sense. Quote: Originally written by Cryptozoology: I don't believe for a second that 11 out of 12 people here would really risk their lives in an attempt to fight off an occupation. Are you saying that American society as a whole is generally cowardly (something I don't beleive) or that the people on these boards are generally cowardly (something that may very well be true)?

Do all you suckers who say you're going with the rebels realize that you're going to be drakon slaves? Not only will you be at their every command during the war, but odds are should they win, you'll be reduced to slavery. They even prefer serviles to humans! You're screwed if you join them. At least you can hope for a somewhat normal life if you join the Shapers. Hell, if you serve them half decently, they may even let you join their ranks as a full shaper! The Mystic, and people like him, they're just cowards. No matter who wins, they lose, because you will be found eventually, no matter how hard you try to hide. The winners will find you, and they will most likely kill you for not supporting them during the war. Or, if they find you while the war is still going on, they will probably not give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you are a spy, and kill you. Thus die all cowards.

As long as you choose that last option, the occupation will be doomed to failure... just like all occupations. Besides, why should we afford them any less than the most extreme resistance, Drakey? It would not weigh on my conscience in the least to do those things to someone invading like that. Sure I'd seek assistance from Nazi Germany, why not? It's not like I can fight them while under Japan's heel.

Assuming Tullegolite wasn't an option? Hmm, do I hate creations more than I crave power? I think so. I'd have to go with Shapers. I would be willing to give up canisters if it mean not having to bow to drakon scum.

Dikiyoba: Exactly, I would raid the rebels for canisters, and I would also raid the Shapers for puresteel. Canister would be more short term, securing much puresteel and even puresteel production would be the primary objective. Retlaw: Monarch decided to begin his conquest with an entire city. I would be much more covert than that in the begining. The Shapers would probably assume we were just more rebels, the rebels would assume we were more Shapers. By the time they figured out there was a whole new faction, it would be too late. I can't imagine them allying to defeat us, since there is no reason for them to hate us more than each other.

Quote: Originally written by Retlaw May: I think the problem with your ambitions is that you assume you are already in a position of power with followers and resources when you start. You're right, I do this. This is a political philosophy discussion, not an RP. I'm discussing the ideal government, and as I said, any description of how I would take power would just be pointless storytelling. But if I must... here is how I would start the empire. Step one, gather a bunch of people who have been ravaged by the rebels and thus have great hatred for them. Then convince them that the Shapers are losing because they do not allow self-shaping. Attack both sides, who will be too busy concentrating on each other to notice us (each side would probably just think we were members of the opposite side). With the resources gained after a few years of banditry, we will hopefully gain access to things like puresteel and canister makers. Then, our power will increase exponentially as time goes on, until eventually we are on the level with the other factions. Far fetched? Maybe. But I like to think that anything is possible in such a world where excessive death and destruction is matched only by excessive life and creation.

Sorry, but I couldn't tell you. You see, I put everything to 30, which leads to the enemy missing you just about always, and makes the character destroy just about everything in one hit. Someone with more patience should make use of my editor and try only giving themselves 30 luck.

Simple really. Canister makes (using Jared as my example) tend to love their work, and have a passion for canisters themselves. However, a canister maker would never survive on their own. They would not be able to find the puresteel they need in large quantities, only something as powerful as a faction could provide this. Canister makers would come to me for these resources. Those that support rebel ideals will go to the rebels, but I am sure there is no shortage of individuals that both crave the power of canisters and hate creations at the same time; they will be the ones that come to me. They will stay loyal to me because without my empire employing them, they will not have the resources (workshop, puresteel) to continue their craft. Jared showed an unmatched love of his job, and almost no ambition to gain political power. With a dozen or so of his type in my employ, my canister needs would be solved.

Is it possible that luck caps out or goes back to zero somewhere before 30? I cheated and played the game through with 30 luck, and other than maybe one fyora cape I didn't get anything special. No thahd tunics, no roamer rings, nothing.

Canisters are to be coveted, never given freely. Ideally, there would be as few people with access to canisters as possible. Peasants and such, (assuming the Geneforge world is like earth, this is the vast majority of the population) would never get to enjoy the pleasures of canisters. Most common soldiers would not either, though they would be under the impression that, should they be at all successful, they will be rewarded greatly. I would probably only give out just enough canisters to keep the peasants in check, and, of course, to fight the war. I envision each small town lorded over by a single Tullegolite viceroy who keeps order in the town and pays tribute to the empire in exchange for small but constant supply of canisters. The justice these viceroys would deal will be harsh, but I'm not worried about them wiping out their own towns, as that would not only lead to them not having a town to rule, but also merit them an imperial price on their heads. So the answer is yes. The unblessed would be allowed to live in peace under the Tullegolite empire in exchange for their loyalty and some rather high wartime taxes (but everyone no doubt has those). Unlike the Shapers, we will allow magic and shaping to be public knowledge, so our peasants would have far greater opportunities available to them. They need only the ambition to take them.

Thuryl: You might be right about the puresteel. I see this as an advantage. Only someone with mighty resources, such as, say, an empire, would be able to obtain and refine the puresteel. This makes the chances of rogue canister makers far less likely. Garrison: I do not like the puppet general idea. Barzahl and Ghaldring have shown that the best way to keep a large force of canister users in check is with a very powerful and authoritative figure on the top. Constantly shifting leaders would make us look weak. I would have to be on top, and I would have to seem invincible. Of course, no one is invincible, so this would involve a lot of hiding in my fortress and being very careful of who I deal with on a day to day basis. If I die, so be it, succession will be clear. The one who kills me is the new emperor. But Tullegolar, what if that new emperor is not a Tullegolite, and he tries to dismantle the empire as would be his right to do? Well, then he won’t be emperor very long, will he? There will always be someone out there to take up the mantle of emperor, the empire will live on. Doomed to Failure: I don't think the empire would ever fall. It may go through many emperor in short amounts of time, but it is designed to do so. It is designed to keep operating in a world that is constantly changing. It might fall if the war ever ended, but let me ask you this: do you see the war in Geneforge ending any time soon?

Too bad most of Avernum takes place in caves, thus forcing you to check every wall. Then there are the places that look like they'll have a secret but done. Was it Angel's Rest that had that annoying "pillar of rock" in the middle of it? I checked for secrets on that thing, like, five times.

Ahaha, stupid Trakovites. I'm only sorry that Trajkov has to have his name forever linked to these losers. He was a great man.

Dikiyoba: My purpose here is really just to explain the type of government I think would work best in the Geneforge world. Any explanation of how I would achieve the power to form such a government would be pointless speculation. Though in a time of total war and chaos, I don't think it would be that hard. It is times like these that men of great ambition are allowed to blossom. Slarty: The point is not that Barzahl won anything, he didn't. The point I was making there was that he managed to keep a canister oriented society from turning into the total chaos everyone is claiming would happen. Thuryl: I thought Geneforge 4 implied that canister makers were few and far between. How many did you see in the game? Two? Jared, whom I got the impression was particularly skilled and really a rare asset. And that one drakon, who was extremely powerful to begin with. No, I don't think canisters are easy to make at all. Otherwise people like Monarch would just make their own. Puresteel: Like with any kind of war, victory begins with securing resources. War in the Geneforge world is no exception. Finding puresteel is apparently tough, but again, the other factions manage, why couldn't I? Times of Peace: Here is where my plans might actually be undeniably flawed. The Tullegolite Empire is designed to exist in a time of total war. You take away the war, you take away an enemy for my crazy followers to focus their energy on, and I can no longer guarantee stability. Hmm, I suppose it would be in my best interest, then, to drag out the war as long as possible. Shouldn't be hard at all.

Yeah, well we can't rule out that he's Garzahd, either. It does't make sense for Monarch to be any returning character other than the PC. People like to see returning characters, especially ones as interesting as Goettsch. Jeff would not take a character like that and give him a new identity without giving us a single clue as to who it was. That would defeat the purpose of him returning entirely.

The Trakovites are not named after Trajkov, right? I didn't see a single reference to the guy in Geneforge 4. Plus the fact that the two have nothing in common whatsoever. I wonder why Jeff decided to make them sound so similar.

I play music with games that don't require much concentration, like World of Warcraft. Spiderweb games, however, have a lot of dialogue and story that you need to pay attention to, and I don't like to listen to music when reading for some reason.

I don't understand why this is so hard to imagine. If my explanation for why it would work isn't good enough, just look at the games. It worked for Barzahl, didn't it? And he gave canisters to people who were totally unprepared for the power. I would only be giving them to worthy candidates. It worked for Trajkov. In his ending, he had no trouble ruling over an empire of canister maddened foreigners. I wouldn’t be conquering people like he did, I would be bringing order to lands that are already in total chaos. Finally, it worked for Ghaldring, despite the fact that drakons are unstable to begin with. My empire would take the whole mad creation factor out of the deal entirely. It's not like my idea for a Geneforge government is even original, it's been done before. If anything, mine is only correcting the shortcomings of ones that came before it. To say it wouldn’t work is simply ignoring everything that has happened in the games so far.