Emperor Tullegolar

Quote: Kyrek: Casting kill isn't exactly creating life, is it? It's not controling either. Also, it isn't shaping something. It's destroying it. There are plenty of spell that are controlling. Plenty of spells designed to cloud the minds of enemies, a whole catagory, in fact. Blessing spells use essence to alter people for short amounts of time, whether or not that counts as shaping is in the eye of the beholder. Then these are the battle spells. Why would the Trakovites oppose the destructive qualities of shaping (which are already outweighed by it's beneficial ones) and not oppose the highly destructive powers of magic?

Yeah, you pretty much described how I made it. Now, if only someone could tell me what goes wrong between my copying it from my script and it being turned into a post. Something must change or go wrong somewhere in between those two steps for it to work for me but not other people. Strange that it works for some, but not for others. For the record, when I take what appears in the post and copy it into my script, it doesn't work for me either. So it's UBB's fault, not mine.

I think magic is more of a tool used to make shaping possible. If they didn't have magic, they would have to use whatever genetic engineers use today... or dilithium crystals... or something. Since they don't have those things, magic is the tool of choice for essence manipulation , thus some basic understanding of magic must be a prerequisite for any apprentice shaper.

Southwest corner I believe. Enter the building in the middle of the bottom of the map, work your way West. Should be in one of those rooms in a chest.

I think I remember reading a description that said augmentation covers you in a shield of pure essence. That wouldn't really be altering your own body, but again, I don't know where Trakovites draw the line as far as essence manipulation goes.

Why try to deny the obvious link between healing and magic? Healing is a skill that Shapers excel in. Agents, masters of magic, suck at healing. But Tullegolar, Jeff probably just put healing under shaping skills to balance the classes. Great, and so our analysis must be built around this decision. Healing is a Shaper art, thus it must have some kind of connection to shaping that spells do not. Furthermore, firebolt is a spell that uses spell points but no essence, so it is possible for magic to exist without any form of essence or shaping whatsoever. But there are no healing spells that require no essence, thus another piece of evidence in support of this theory.

Quote: do not fail to notice a blade in backs Priceless. It's like being insulted by Hugo Chavez, only he's trying to use English instead of his native language.

Maybe that's because shaping-healing is far superior. Why abandon powerful healing methods in favor of lesser ones? Come on, even the Anama philosophy is more solid than Trakovite dribble.

No, healing and shaping are definitely more closely related than magic and shaping. They must be related on some fundamental level to be linked in that you can be strong in healing and shaping but not in magic, and vice versa. So, do the Trakovites only oppose the creation of new life, and that's it? Seems kind of stupid. The point of shaping is creation, while the point of magic is destruction. Why oppose the one and not the other? These people are backwards. In Trakovite Terrestia, shaping opposes you!

You have to keep in mind that the Avernum world and the Geneforge world are different, and they follow totally different 'laws of magic' as well. Perhaps healing is a highly essence intensive skill that has little to do with magic at all, which would be why those who are strong in magic but weak at shaping are not so good at it. Either way, magical spells use essence as well, so it is difficult to draw the line between magic and shaping. This is just another of the many reasons why Trakovite philosophy is flawed madness.

You're being cynical. I don't think that Jeff was being careless here, I think he just assumed we could figure some things out on our own. It's not like this involves contradicting dates or something like that. Why can serviles use canister now? New technology. I'll take the 'a wizard did it' explanation over the 'writer screwed it up' explanation any day.

I agree, there really is no problem here. Was there something wrong with my explaination?

Randomizer: That's why I'm not a Shaper. I wish there was a sect that supported shaping yourself without supporting creation rights. I miss Barzahl. I don't understand what Grimm's reasoning is for someone who shapes themselves owing obedience to the Shapers. He call them creations, but they are not. They were not created, so they do not owe anyone their life. Do they owe the creator of the geneforge itself? Maybe... If anything, someone who has shaped new abilities into themselves is a more pure shaper than one who has learned to use shaping as a tool. The only analogy I can think of right now is a Shaper being someone with a hammer hammering nails into a peice of wood, and someone who used the geneforge as someone who can drive the nails in with their bare hands. Who is superior? It is the Shapers who should be bowing to the shaped, not the other way around.

Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: Try attacking one as a beginning character and see what type of damage they can do. Hmm, if only more people had shaping powers, fighting ornks wouldn't even be nessesary. You could just ask them to roll over and die. Was anyone else extremely pleased at the new variety of smart/loyal serviles that were created? Definitely the best thing to come out of the war so far.

Serviles shaped by the geneforge can do lots of things they otherwise could not. Use magic, shape, and, apparently, use canisters.

Quote: Originally written by Skippy: Frankly, you can think of Shaping like nuclear weapons, or biological weapons, or any of the other things that are generally considered to be too heinous to use in the real world. It's narrow-minded people like you who give shaping a bad name. You do realize that shaping can be used for things other than killing, don't you? Do you think that ornks are a danger to the world? No, they are delicious and nutritious. I shudder to think of what people would eat if it were not for them. Slarty, I kind of agree with you. However, I think Jeff started ditching the whole power vs. moderation angle on pupose to show the desperate measures taken in times of total war. With all that power floating around, the Trakovite ideology seems very, very unrealistic, and only a walking deus ex machina like the PC would even be able to think about being able to follow it and accomplish something in its name. Orange bring up an important point. Once shaping is banned, it will only be a matter of time before they attack magic as a whole. Next thing you know, another domino will fall and they will try to murder anything at all infused with essence. Healing craft counts as shaping, yes? Trakovites are against healing magic?

Those glorious technologies wouldn't exist were it not for shaping. Why would anyone want to prevent any future advancements that would make life easier for people? I wonder if the Trakovites consider healing spells as a form of shaping as well. Either way, that still leaves the questions of order and/or forcing humans to fight in battle. Sure, people complain that the rebellion is ravaging their cities, but at least the Shapers aren't conscripting them into their army to help fight them off. Quote: Originally written by Randomizer: ET thinks as long as he is in control whatever force he rules is right. So does everyone else. That is, unless you steer the force you control in the opposite direction of what you think is right.

Is anyone here a Trakovite? Does anyone actually agree with their ideas? Would the world of Geneforge really be better without shaping? Come on, how could all the benefits of such a glorious technology be denied? It gives us food, servants, and protection. It makes life easier for all, giving humanity time to take on more scholarly pursuits. Only under a banner of peace and order can civilization prosper. Without shaping, where would the world be? First of all, order would collapse due to the lack of a powerful ruling force. Without Shapers in control, just anyone can come to power. They wouldn’t have to be strong or intelligent, it would be total chaos. Inhospitable areas would be uninhabitable due to lack of shaper made plants. We’d have to build inefficient doors, use crude weapons like bows and arrows, and pick locks with strange tools that don’t do the work for you. Even worse, humans would be doing the jobs serviles do now, imagine, humans scrubbing floors and sweeping! Worst of all, we would have to send our own sons and daughters to die in battles when creations could have gone in their places. Is that a world you would prefer? Are we barbarians? Next thing you know they'll want to ban magic. Madness.

Hey. Stop trying to turn the "compliment Geneforge 4" thread into a "complain about Nethergate" thread! I know it is difficult for you guys to go for more than five or six posts without complaining about something but really, this game deserves better. I was playing the game again for a different ending and I noticed more of the little things, like that there is a different image for every kind of pod and spores. I also like the variety of different types of mines as well. Still not sure that the green orbs do, however, as I've never allowed one to set off.

Quote: Originally written by -X-: -X- prefers to use custom-made charms to increase stats beyond possible limits. You call that cheating? Charms take up inventory space! I can't understand why you would ever need stats above 30 anyway.

Random.org has pretty much everything you could ever want to know on the subject and more. Plus t-shirts!

Shaper Fiber Cloak... or is it Shaped Fiber Cloak? One of those.

It sure does make you uber! Just wait until you get to Northforge, you'll get a chance to use the Geneforge again. Do it!

Great. And that was the one time I was actually being serious.

I hate the fact that you can't make all eight of the artifacts. So, really, you don't even need to keep all the artifact ingredients either. It would be one thing if you had to choose between two cloaks or two belts, but you have to choose between boots or belts! How am I supposed to choose between going barefoot or having my leggings of the tyrant fall down?