Mea Tulpa

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish ...betas are the big sleeper hit... higher hit points than your standard rot... More physical damage than a rot gets in a single strike... Are we even playing the same game here? Let's compare the stats from the definition file: Code: BETA ROT STATISTIC---- --- --------- 26 28 Base Level 100 250 Bonus HP 1 4 Strength Bonus 0 4 Dexterity Bonus 0 6 Quick Action Bonus 0 3 Parry Bonus 7 14 Base Attack Level 1-5 1-5 Damage per level of attackPhys Phys Damage type for attackNone Acid Status effect bestowed by attack Unless you are going to tell me that the defs file is lying, and it hasn't about anything else yet, you are simply wrong. I think it's pretty clear what happened here. You made a beta early, kept it around for a long time so it gained 10 or 20 levels, pumped up all its stats, and THEN made some fresh creations to which you compared it (creations which probably could have been made earlier -- definitely in the case of the plated bug). At that point obviously it will outshine a rot or a plated bug.

With all due respect -- and I do hold quite a bit of it for you -- this is all bunk. Depending on how you play the game, it is entirely possible that you end up having a glorious experience with any number of creations. You are concluding too much, from one glorious experience. Experience is valuable, and so are numbers. When they AGREE, we know we are on to something: thus Khoth's Wingbolt experience and the numbers agree. Your Beta experience does not match up in the same way, in fact it's quite a disjunction. I don't question the integrity of your experience, but I question its objective relevance. If somebody else testifies to the same experience, I will be less suspicious. If betas are "highly useful" then so are most of the creations available. If they are "powerful" then almost every creation is powerful.

Once again: most creations are good if you focus on them. I guess you're right, alphas don't suck; they just suck in comparison to other creations. The main problem is not comparing them to glaahks as I did before. It's comparing them to Plated Clawbugs, which are available earlier, are cheaper in essence, only start 4 levels below alphas, but get bonus AP. If you pump stats, pump your shaping skill, and/or level up your creations, the difference becomes all too clear, and the plated bugs make the alphas grossly irrelevant. Betas start 6 levels above alphas, cost 60 instead of 40, and have NO other differences from alphas. At all. So a fresh beta will have a bit more HP than a fresh alpha, and it will do more damage. Specifically, it will do about 9 more damage per hit. That's it, that's the only upgrade, is 9 damage per hit! (Oh -- 9 damage before armor, which means 6 damage against most enemies.)

The problem with a wingbolt/war trall mix is that you can't invest heavily in both shaping skills, which is very powerful again in G5. The only thing wingbolts do better against than war tralls is pylons, really. Just about anything that they resist, resists their attack as well. I went and cheated to look at all the shop lists, too. Randomizer's list has a Wingbolt canister in zone 59 and a War Trall one in zone 60, but that one requires doing a Ghaldring quest first. Wingbolt and War Trall lessons are both sold by: Quothe (Haria-Kel -- must ally with Astoria and do the Rawal quest) Marzan (Stormhold Plains -- must do a bunch of quests and possibly ally with Alwan) Kulish (Taygen Oasis -- must ally with Taygen or Alwan) Ellek'Sss (Dera Shores -- must ally with Astoria or Ghaldring, OR have Leadership of 8 or higher) Wingbolts, but not War Tralls, are sold by: Saakash (Gazaki-Uss -- must ally with Ghaldring) All of these places except for Haria-Kel are pretty far down the map. One of the quests you need to ally with Astoria requires going to the Stormhold Plains. However, joining Astoria still seems to be the fastest route to Wingbolt or War Trall knowledge. (Alternately, it might be faster, if less elegant, to just run for the Wingbolt canister in zone 59.) That doesn't leave as much levelling up for the Wingbolts/Tralls as I'd hope. So what good creations are available earlier? Cryoa and Artila to start, Vlish and Plated Bugs very soon, Battle Alphas (which still suck and Glaahks (by canister) after that, then Kyshaaks in Stormhold Plains, and then finally the Wingbolts and Tralls after doing the required quests or travelling. But the base level differences are bigger now and even accounting for levelups lost, I think the W/Ts will still be stronger.

I went and edited scripts to test a few things. I have a full list of creations and I found some limits. The experience cap for your PC is 60,000, which means level 61 is the hardcoded limit. This limit does exist for creations when they gain experience, but it definitely does not exist for them when you shape them: You can shape a level 71 Eyebeast if you really want to. In practice this does mean there may be a practical limit to how high your shaping stats are useful at, depending on what point in the game you are shaping at, since creation level may max out on its own. Format: Base essence cost - Creation Name (Base level) Full list of creations 10 - Fyora (2) 25 - Cryoa (7) 28 - Roamer (10) 15 - Pyroroamer (4) 60 - Drayk (24) 90 - Cryodrayk (28) 125 - Kyshakk (25) 160 - Burning Kyshakk (28) 150 - Drakon (32) 220 - Ur-Drakon (35) 8 - Thahd (4) 15 - Corrupted Thahd (12) 20 - Clawbug (10) 30 - Plated Clawbug (16) 40 - Battle Alpha (20) 60 - Battle Beta (26) 110 - Rotghroth (28) 160 - Rotdhizon (34) 125 - War Trall (32) 180 - Shock Trall (33) 12 - Artila (4) 40 - Plated Artila (12) 25 - Vlish (12) 75 - Charged Vlish (12) 60 - Glaahk (20) 80 - Ur-Glaahk (30) 140 - Wingbolt (24) 160 - Unstable Firebolt (24) 180 - Gazer (32) 240 - Eyebeast (38) Addendum: The damage taken by unstable creations is exactly 10% of their current HP, plus 1. They die when reduced to about 10 HP. However, this damage is taken only every *two* rounds of battle. Regeneration shield heals about 30 HP *every* round of battle, which means that while in battle mode, it will keep creations at about 600 HP, barring any damage they might take. Outside of battle, however, you get 1 regeneration for every 1 unstable HP loss, so it will only work up to about 300 HP. The bottom line: unstable creations are extremely usable as one-shot allies in battle. (The Shock Trall will do more damage than anything else in the game, AND it stuns, which is probably the best status effect in G5.) They are a bit of a hassle to keep around outside of battle mode, though.

I just looked in the defs again. Something about Shock Tralls escaped me before. Their ranged attack is just like a War Trall's, EXCEPT IT STUNS!!!! *dances*

WHOA WHOA WHOA Randomizer gave me a partial list of essence costs. Unless someone else with a finished game wants to help so much for knowing the alternate creation types. However, he gives us: Fyora - 10 Cryoa -25 Roamer - 28 Drayk - 60 Kyshakk - 125 Drakon - 150 Thahd - 8 Clawbug - 20 Plated Clawbug - 30 Battle Alpha - 40 Rotghroth - 110 War Trall - 125 Artila - 12 Vlish - 25 Glaahk - 60 Wingbolt - 140 Gazer - 180 I filled in a few as well. Do you know what changed in this list? FIFTH TIER CREATIONS GOT LOADS CHEAPER. Drakons are 150 instead of 183, and War Tralls are 125 instead of 175. Combined with the increase in available levels, this makes it ABSURDLY easy to have SEVEN FIFTH TIER CREATIONS following you around. You can do it by level 30 with a lifecrafter; or you can leave Int mostly unpumped and boost your other stats more than shapers have ever been able to (like shaping skills a good fit with this build). 125 for War Tralls!!! That's cheaper than Wingbolts (who are up to 140) and it has a better damage rate. Physical damage is probably less useful than magical, but it is the one other damage type that is never shut out entirely. Against typical 30% armor enemies their damage should about equal wingbolts. Plus the War Tralls have more HP and better defenses against all but pure magic (which they still resist at 40%). War Tralls are officially my new favourite creation. Too bad they are so ugly. 150 for Drakons is good, too -- although Wingbolts and War Tralls are both probably better. Still, they are another option for Cryoa/Kyshakk/Drakon teams.

It isn't really such a small number anymore. Not as many as BoE, but a larger proportion of BoA scenarios are decent quality -- the kind of people who would make a Prazac's Quest or whatever are not going to find the BoA editor very usable.

Shock Tralls do exist in the G5 defs at least, and they look quite good there: with the War Trall's ranged attack (one of the better attacks in the game, and the best physical attack) and the bonus AP, they can potentially outdamage any other fresh creation.

I encountered a similar issue on my MacBook (also late 2006, 10.5.5). It has only come up for me the first time I opened the application, when I left it sitting on the class select dialog for a long time. After a couple minutes the audio loop went to the left channel only, but sound effects were on both. Later when I started the game, the audio loop went to the right channel only. My other uses of the application have been fine.

Some questions are subjective. Other questions are not. People may have different opinions on both kinds of questions, but for the second kind, some of those people are simply wrong.

Wait, he got rid of ALL the charged creations? Is this true? Christ, will somebody with a completed game PLEASE post the list of creations and base essence costs already? Too many of them have changed. Randomizer, DV, I'm looking at you.

Why the Shock Trooper in G4 would ever rate above the Servile is beyond me. G5 is a different story, but in G4 the Shock Trooper really was an inferior class.

It certainly seems unintentional. Jeff is usually careful about making sure you don't lose credit for a quest by completing it before talking to the people involved.

Spiderweb Software brings you Geneforge 5: Overthrow, the final chapter in their fantasy epic. Return to the world of the Shapers one final time. Explore a vast, war-torn world, create and mold your own army of strange, powerful monsters, and choose a side to help lead to final victory. The Shapers have the ability to create life in any form they choose. They can make living tools that obey their commands, plants that can flourish in the harshest wasteland, and powerful monsters that can crush all who oppose them. The Shapers ruled the known lands, and any who tried to rebel or learn their magical secrets were destroyed. But then their creations rebelled. Working with humans jealous of their masters, they stole the secrets of the Shapers and created their own armies. They created and unleashed new, even more powerful creations and matched the Shapers in savagery. And now, years into the rebellion, the war has settled into a gruesome stalemate. The lands are scorched, and city after city falls. The two sides are so delicately balanced that one brave warrior can turn the tide. Will you help the rebels overthrow the Shapers? Will you help the Shapers regain their power, tempted by the incredible rewards they offer? You might be able to end this war. Which side will you choose? System requirements: * PC Running Windows 2000 or later or Macintosh running System 10.3.9 or later. * 50 MB free RAM. * 200 MB hard disk space. * 1024x768 screen resolution with 16 bit color (Windows) or 32 bit color (Macintosh). * Geneforge 5 will run natively on Intel Macintoshes. Go to the Geneforge 5 homepage to download the demo!

Daze was an example. The point is that poison and acid are not required.

I just don't think they're "vital". I could just as easily say a good Daze is "vital" to dealing with the glaahks, but as your example shows, it isn't the only solution. etc, etc

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish It is now of vital importance to make sure you have a means of acid or poison application. Isn't this a bit overdramatic? Acid and poison can be useful, but in the end they are just another way of doing damage. If a searing artila attacks a creature every turn, and a wingbolt attacks it every turn as well, the wingbolt will do more damage than the artila will, COUNTING the acid drip damage as part of the artila's damage. The fact that part of the artila's damage happens over time is certainly not an advantage when facing regeneration! The faster you do damage and kill something, the fewer turns it has to regenerate.

Armor's damage reduction also wasn't multiplicative in the original Nethergate, or in any games that preceeded the Geneforge engine. Before Geneforge, it was adding integers instead of multiplying percents.

The clawbug gets 60 bonus HP while the artila gets 10 bonus HP. The clawbug has 40% armor while the artila has 50% magic resistance. The HP difference is significant at low levels but not with the superbuff creations we're discussing. So really it's just armor vs magic resistance. Well, and the clawbug also does slightly more damage, and costs more essence. Are you sure poison/acid status stops regen? Or do you just mean it does damage to make up for it?

When I said "vs wingbolts" I meant "compared to using wingbolts", not "when attacking wingbolts". A fully pumped Vlish will do about half the damage of a typical Wingbolt, against *anything*. (They are both magic damage.) Creations go up to +8. Battle shaping only has poison and acid for ancillary effects. They are pure damage ancillary effects, and they are on creations which, like the artila and searing artila, do a lot less damage in the first place, so I'm not sure how helpful they are.

There have been 7-unzip applications on the mac for ages.

*nod* The one thing is that with so many chances to boost Strength (level ups, shaping skill, item bonuses, pumping creation stats directly) the attack multiplier becomes a lot more important. So an unstatpumped Wingbolt is gonna dish out a lot more than a +8 strength Vlish. On the other hand, a Cryoa may be preferable to a Cryodrayk because of direct pumping. Basically the best offensive creations end up being: Drayk & Drakon (Fire), Cryoa & Cryodrayk (Ice) War Trall (Phys) Wingbolt & Gazer (Magical) Magic shaping also has ancillary creations: Vlish for weaken, Artila and Searing Artila for poison and acid, Glaahk for stun. All of those involve significant loss of flat out damage vs wingbolts, so I'm not sure they are worth it.

So I did some tests and I found that the experience creations gain is still a constant percentage of the experience your PC gains, based on the level gap. I have only seen percentages in the 50% to 100% range, and unless your creation is more than 10 levels above or below it stays between 60% and 80%. I also found that shaping skills no longer have a 10-cap. Combined, this means that every point you buy in a shaping is worth between 1 level (for a freshly shaped, or disposable creation) and 1/2 level (for a creation you keep with you a very long time). It starts and 1 and will gradually diminish so long as your creation is a higher level than you, but it will never go below 0.5 in value. In practice, since even without shaping skill bonuses the creation probably wouldn't earn the full 100%, and you are not usually going to create a strong enough creation to only earn 50%, the value you get out of it is more likely to float between about 1 and 0.7. Level is hugely important for creations. All creations get +1 to all four stats for every 2 levels, and their HP and Energy increase independently of End and Int for every 1 level -- this means that HP and Energy go up pseudo-exponentially. THE POINT: This makes raising shaping skill the fastest way to ramp up damage, since you are permanently raising Strength for up to 7 creations for every 1-4 points you put in it (depending on the math above). Plus, you raise your creations' survivability tremendously at the same time. The large number of levels available to gain in G5, for your PC, means that (1) you have plenty of skill points available to pump both Int and a shaping skill, and (2) less Int is required to start making the creation type you want. The two free bonuses to Int you can get in the demo don't hurt, either. If you pump Fire Shaping and make a Cryoa, it can easily be level 50 by the end of the game. If you pump Battle Shaping and make a Plated Clawbug when you get to Mera-Tev, it will start around level 35 and can easily be level 55 by the end of the game. Dash for the Glaahk canister and it should go from 40 to 60. But the real charm of this strategy, I suspect, is in making pumped up higher tier creations when you are around level 25 or 30. They will start high and will begin to max out along with you by the end of the game. This is *not* the game for disposable creations!

No.