Genernumlover

Basically you can have enemies, melee or ranged, get their attacks or splash damage lined up for them by the terrify effect ending. They can make a panicked run to positions that are more advantageous for hitting your damaged creations or for blocking your Guardian from reaching a critical target. 

The Purifying Blade is extremely powerful once you've leveled it up. As it starts, Bunk's Blade or the Guardian Claymore have better perks, but slowly get outclassed in one hit damage. As you indicated, it amounts to perks versus damage.

Two thoughts on Weapon Shaping:

Guardian Push would function better if it were a push or pull technique that let your character move the target three spaces in any direction. It'd be a form of crowd control and a gap closer that would let the Guardian have more control over early game battles.

A potential fix for Guardian's Roar could be one that weakens and strengthens it at the same time: make it an aimed cone attack that terrifies enemies in the cone and puts a long lasting secondary effect on enemies in a circle around the Guardian. The cone would somewhat mimic how sound works in real life. If I'm yelling in one direction and you can still hear me from another it wouldn't be as loud. Plus, the directed nature of the attack would give the Guardian more control over who goes running in circles. Meanwhile, the secondary effect would increase the survivability of the Guardian and his creations in the event the terrified enemy minions charge into the Guardian or his squad.

For the secondary effect I'm thinking of something more basic as opposed to a Wrack or Wrackwave. A slow or curse effect alone would suffice, but the secondary effect shouldn't be Wrack using slightly different mechanics.

48 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Trying to balance the game so everything is equal is almost impossible. A min/max character will always do better that other characters. So it's hard to balance out everything.

This isn't about reaching a perfect balance. For me, this is about each class being powerful in their own right and distinctive. One class being able to use the abilities of the other classes nearly as well, or as well, as they can and having its own unique gameplay is not fun.

I don't think there is a reset cheat like that. I made a mistake with a quest, with that wandering Shaper, and I had to reload from an earlier save.

Except that viable is the standard that most players use for investing in Shaping skills and creations. I'm not going to put a bunch of points in Stalkthorn, but focus on a Rotghroth instead. That's why the creation analysis thread you wrote is so important to players. It helps us measure the viability of Shaping skills and creation choices.

The main issue is the question raised by the thread: can an Agent match or nearly match the other classes in their specializations while still being the best in her own at the same time? For a hypothetical example, if she is functioning like she has one strong and two medium skillsets due to current gameplay, even if the character screen says one skillset is supposed to be weak, that'd mean the Agent is too strong and needs some adjustment.

Beta testing doesn't catch everything. I also said "If that is true." That's why I said Vogel should be alerted to the issue, so that he can look into it and determine it based on his viewpoint as someone who tinkers directly with the game. I'm not suggesting drastically altering the game right here and now with no examination. What I am suggesting is alerting someone who can look into the game's inner workings and tell us if there is a balance issue that has been overlooked.

7 hours ago, Displayed Name said:

She is numerically superior to other classes, matching and often overtaking them in their supposedly strong suite.

If that is true you should email Spiderweb Software directly. That's a major game balance issue you've uncovered. Overpowering one class to be able to match either of the others in their specializations while still having her own specialization means that the Agent is currently overpowered. It sounds like Vogel overcompensated for the earlier difficulty playing Agents. He should either nerf the Agent or increase the stats of the other classes so that they are more equal. I'm in favor of buffing the other classes. Agents should be powerful, but that doesn't mean the other classes should be weaker by comparison.

A Guardian with splash damage creations can annihilate whole squads of weaker enemies with a well placed Chain Lightning, while Essence Lash is good for bosses. I put Guarded Lunge and Lifedrain in the top spots not because of their sheer power, but because of how much they get used and how reliable they are. Odds are, a Guardian is going to be using one or the other for every boss battle in the game.

18 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Guardian Push is a good early game attack to stun and slow opponents especially thands which have the health to last for several rounds. It becomes less useful in mid game as more creations can resist its best effects.

True, you really don't use Guardian Pash past the early game. It gets left behind as your character levels up.

8 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

I think it comes across as underwhelming because it's the highest level weapon shaping skill. Even if it fills a specific niche, it can be disappointing if you were hoping for something more powerful for the most expensive skill.

Exactly, it is expensive and it is supposed to be quite powerful. However, for its position in the game, it is arguably the least useful of the mass crowd control spells due to its drawbacks.

Overall, I think most Weapon Shaping skills are good, but Guardian's Roar, in particular, needs some work to make it more useful.

This is Weapon Shaping in order of usefulness, with credit to Slawbug's post on creation analysis for inspiring me to use the color palette for emphasis.

Thanks to everyone who advised me on how to build my Guardian, on who I tested this gameplay.

Essential: Guarded Lunge and Lifedrain.

Both of the above are critical to a Guardian's gameplay and they remain useful through the entire game. Guarded Lunge shields you, lets your creations hit bosses, and makes your characters do more damage to the target. Lifedrain pairs nicely with Regeneration to keep your character alive. Guarded Lunge and Lifedrain are the bread and butter of a Guardian's gameplay. Combine them with War Infusion, Blessing Magic, and a couple of creations, and you are good to go.

Good: War Infusion, Chain Lightning, Searing Spray, and Essence Lash.

These can be useful in a variety of situations. War Infusion is an early game substitute for Blessing Magic, and it remains useful for keeping blessings on your character in the middle of fight. Chain Lightning lets characters damage swarms of enemies while Searing Spray gives the damage over time that the Guardian kit used to lack. Essence Lash is more situational, but it is a good ability that can slow the enemy and harass them with shock damage.

Mediocre: Guardian Push.

In theory, this is a good ability. The ability to knock back, slow and stun an enemy is good. However, a Guardian is mainly using this to try and keep an enemy away from part of his squad. To do that, the Guardian has to knock them in a different direction. That usually requires precise repositioning for a ranged attack, or running down the target for a melee strike. In most situations, it is more effective to body block the enemy or let creations blast the target down.

This ability can be useful in narrow areas or for ranged characters to keep an enemy back to wear them down with baton attacks.

Underwhelming: Guardian's Roar.

This ability isn't as good as it seems. Scattering enemies is a useful power, but they tend to scatter in all directions. There is also a high risk of panicked enemies running straight into the Guardian's creations or making the situation worse overall. If they do not do that, you may still have to hunt them down if they charge out of the room. And, since many of the endgame bosses have a high enough mental resistance to shrug off mental effects, this technique is only useful to erratically scatter groups of weaker enemies.

On 4/14/2024 at 8:53 AM, Slarzahl said:

The enchanted anvils, just like with the other artifacts.

That makes sense. Thanks for the information. I was looking around for an orange essence pool to charge them, like in Mutagen. Well, a different installment in the series has slightly different mechanics to play by.

Thanks for the advice!

I was wondering if I had made a mistake in not getting Blessing and Mental Magic. It sounds like I did. I made it a point to get Blessing Magic, at the very least, in previous installments, but I was hoping that Weapon Shaping would replace it. It seems like Weapon Shaping is meant more to keep the Guardian going once he is in the battle, but you need Blessing Magic to make the Guardian strong before the battle begins.

I was hoping that Evasion would stack and give me a 28% chance of dodging all incoming attacks and therefore I'd drastically increase my survivability. It doesn't seem to work that way though.

I didn't know about the Retrain cheat. That'll be handy. 

I put some points in Essence Mastery early on in my Shaper game, in order to get more Iron Clawbugs onto the field. I'm glad that I got this information before I wasted anymore points in that.

I am planning on mixing Battle and Magic Shaping for a team of Rotghroths backed up by Vlish for ranged support and buffs. I want a wall between my Shaper and whatever is attacking.

What is the best overall shaping specialization? I was initially thinking of Fire Shaping, as you can get Fyoras and Roamers to a fairly highly level in the earlier game. Vlish seems like they'd be the best support option though. I'm wondering about which type of shaping is best in general and which is best for a class who isn't mainlining shaping.

For reference, my level 17 solo Guardian has: 8 Strength, 7 Agility, 4 Intellect, 5 Essence Mastery, 7 Endurance, 8 Melee, 5 Missile Weapons, 7 Evasion, 8 Quick Action, 4. Healing Craft, and 8 in Leadership and Mechanics. He can handle most mobs with a hit or two, but spellcasters and bosses nuke him. They stun, slow, and acid him to death, even with equipment that is supposed him to help resist that. It sounds like a fixable problem is that I don't have enough Blessing Magic to buff my character before battles.

I got the Intellect and Essence Mastery for boss battles, so that he could cast more. That didn't help as much as I hoped it would.

Would a point or two in Mental Magic be useful? Daze was a powerhouse in my Shaper's early game, but I'm wondering how good of an investment it would be in the long term.

Also, should I specialize my Guardian's weapon skills more? I added a few levels of Missile Weapons, but it sounds like I could've put those points to better use.

I don't use many canisters either, so that avenue of power is limited for my Guardian.

I've tried repeatedly tried playing with a Guardian, my favorite class through the original Geneforge series, and it is hard. A solo Guardian gets nuked into oblivion by enemy casters and bosses. Meanwhile, If you play as the tip of the spear for creations, you have to tank all the stuns, acid, and poison, yourself. A lot of the time, the melee Guardian is just trying to stay alive instead of hitting back, even with Lifedrain. In contrast, a ranged Guardian doesn't have the spells to buff and support melee creations, leaving him reliant on spores. Plus, if you make a field of creations, you don't have much essence to use Weapon Shaping, and you have to return to town constantly to recharge.

Serviles characters in the future Geneforge 4 remake will be pretty strong, due to having Weapon Shaping and better spells, but the Guardian is in an awkward spot right now.

Where do you charge the Feisty Slap gloves and the Helix Ring? I've defeated a special character while I have the ring, and gotten a notice that it is charging, but the stats are the same as when I got it.

True, that's quite a bit of work, both remaking Geneforge 2 and fixing the issues with the older games. So far, I haven't had any real issues with Avernum 1, 3, or Avadon 1 or 2, so it seems to be unique to Avernum 2 and Avadon 3. Although, if he reused the same codes like you said then that means that problems will creep up as newer operating systems and computers come out.

I'll send Spiderweb Tech Support an email and hope for the best results sometime down the road. It probably won't be soon, but hopefully Jeff will be able to fix the games after the remake of Geneforge 2 is out.

So that means that both Avadon 3 and Avernum 2 need fixes. Is Jeff aware of these issues?

I'm using a MacBook Pro, so that's probably it. Is there a fix?

Avadon 3 won't even allow me to access the main menu as it says that there are no allowed resolutions. It sounds like a similar problem to the one some folks were having with Geneforge Mutagen.

Any ideas on how to fix this?

It also depends on what he was controlling. If the majority were creations that didn't have much capacity for thought, worms, crawlers, or turrets, with a couple of advanced creations as the muscle, it'd be theoretically possible for him to control a lot of them. The wimp of Harmony Isle was able to control quite a few creatures in spite of him being inept. Also, the player character can control a squad of Eyebeasts or Drakons in later games, so controlling a bunch of nearly mindless creatures should be possible.

Like JDubkins, I also noticed that the option to maneuver and subdivide your party was gone. That was irritating, especially if you had a party of mixed creations. I'd like that ability to return. And the ability to once again change our character's sprite color would be nice, as he requested.

Looks like it might hit the 60k new story, but I doubt it will reach the 80k or 100k.

Thank you!

How do I get this fight to start? When I challenge Candlesmoke she runs. Do I have to solve that Erudico puzzle? If so, how?

The Shapers and Awakened were kind of the default sane factions in Geneforge 2. Barzites were the extreme version of Shapers and Takers were the extreme version of Awakened. Because of that dynamic, there was a bit of the "good guys get less rewards" trope going on if you joined the Shapers or Awakened.

The thing with Zakary is that all of his attempts at stopping the rogue factions hinge on the player helping him. He has, arguably, the most stable and reliable band of Shapers in the mountains. He should be able to do something more than he did.

The Awakened ending needs some work too. In light of the later Geneforge games, Drakons go rogue so easily that the Awakened ending is more a prelude to disaster rather than the founding of a sanctuary.

Huh, I didn't know any of that. I mainly view Pyroroamers as Jeff's prototype for charged creations. I'm still probably not going to use them much though. I dislike having to constantly replace my team.

Roamers weren't that good in the originals, although they've gotten a bit better in the remake. Pyroroamers, on the other hand, have always been on my default "do not make" list.