Genernumlover

I mean that Weapon Shaping is different from the other forms of magic in that it is accessed differently. Because it is accessed via weapon skill and its modifiers are increased by a stat that is usually more associated with the magic skill lines as opposed to weaponry or essence, what Guardians mainly use, it seemingly has its own rules even though the system itself is basically the system for magic.

1 minute ago, ex post slarto said:

The base damage range is determined by the ability itself.  In the case of Chain Lightning this does not care about any equipped weapons, it's a separate ability.

 

Jeff asked me for a few suggested tooltip fixes.  I sent a short list.  He used several verbatim in v1.0.2 (notably for Mental Magic and Blessing Magic), but did not use the ones for Str/Dex/Int, so I assume he prefers the current versions.

In that case, Weapon Shaping has its own rules. The ability to use Weapon Shaping is determined by skill in weapons, the modifiers are determined by Intellect, and the base damage is determined by the ability. It seems like it would be easier for Vogel to make the ability to use them and have their modifiers be determined by weapons skills alone. Either that or weapons skills and Essence Mastery, as essence is supposedly the key component of Weapon Shaping.

I'm thinking aloud here, but could an Agent theoretically make better use of Weapon Shaping than a Guardian under the current rules? It seems like her modifiers would be higher on virtually all of the abilities due to her need for Intellect to power her spells. I haven't tried a Weapon Shaping Agent yet, mostly because I like melee Guardians so much. But a Baton Agent sounds like she'd be very powerful.

Well, it is good to hear that he is asking you for improvements. Hopefully he takes the ones he didn't use this time and uploads them in the next patch.

1 minute ago, alhoon said:

That is completely true. I didn't say Tuldaric is innocent. 

That's a good point.

Tuldaric seems like he was a good man, but he is an example of the slippery slope argument. He used canisters to get power and now seems to be slowly slipping further into experiments that are forbidden.

The Barzites are the ones obsessed with using infernals, and I wonder if they had some influence on him. The ghost near the Rotting Avatar says that they tried binding the thing, and they are responsible for the Bound One being in that golem.

5 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

 

Guarded Lunge's % bonus does not increase with Intellect.

 

Chain Lightning's will, because it's an energy attack.  This is the same reason the Gazer's "melee" attack gets a bonus from Magical Skill rather than Strength -- it does energy damage.

 

Intellect has no special relevance to weapon shaping.

That makes sense. So the magical effect modifiers are increased by Intellect for the abilities that have them, but the overall base damage is determined by the weapon itself.

5 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

(This is, btw, why I wish the tooltips for Str/Dex/Int read "physical melee damage" and "physical ranged damage" and "magical/elemental damage" rather than what they currently say.  But ah well.)

That would clear things up a lot. Hopefully that is implemented in a future patch or the remake of Geneforge 3.

12 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

 

Ah, so many things to unpack and exchange opinions on here... so little time.

 

1. I went through Phariton's Hall of Creation Abusing without being seen by Serviles. Then I attacked and Killed Phariton for his crimes. Then I walked out and the Servile suicide bombers were fine. I told them Phariton is dead and they were sad. 

Phariton, in short, Out-barzhes the Barzhites. He simply ties up creations and beats them up. He doesn't care if they go rogue or that they will spend their entire lives chained to a post, as long as they are there to kill intruders. 

 

2. Tuldaric has gone off the deep end ... till you meet Barzhal and Phariton. Phariton was probably always reckless with creations (shaper-tier, not Phariton-tier reckless) while Barzhal was more mild till he got mad. There are discussions with Serviles that Barzhal was more moderate in his views till he not-so-slowly decided that nah, creations should not have rights. 

 

3. We do not know for sure if Tuldaric summoned the Infernal. That the infernal, a by nature evil and treacherous creature says so, by no means makes it true. I have not finished the Emissary's quests but I doubt she is as happy-go-lucky and friendly as she pretends to be while you do her job for her / promote her agenda. The reasons Shapers forbid consorting with these is that they are treacherous and deadly.  

Back to the Infernal Tuldaric bound, it is a creature that wants you to kill Tuldaric. It would say anything. There are in fact reasons to think that Tuldaric was not the one to summon that one. There are many infernals drawn in Drypeaks after all that nobody summoned. Well, except the Infernal the Barzhites summoned. 

 

 

Good, Phariton deserves to die. Barzahl does as well, but Phariton takes it to a new level of horrible. He made Pyroserviles for crying out loud!

True, but the thing is, Tuldaric didn't destroy the infernal, instead he captured it and held it close enough to inflict mental distress on individuals and creations around it. It seems like he is using it for something, even if it is lying about everything, which is probable given its nature. Ultimately, Tuldaric is still toying around with evil instead of eradicating it. It is also a commentary on how far gone he is that players are willing to entertain the idea that he summoned the infernal.

That, and Phariton remarks that he learned from Tuldaric.

5 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

Intellect increases the % bonus for weapon shaping status duration, because Intellect is the stat that increases the % bonus for all status durations, regardless of what ability they're on.  (I believe this is actually a change in v1.0.2 -- I could have sworn Quick Action did this for weapon shaping previously -- but I might be wrong on that.)

 

Bonus damage from weapon shaping skills like Guarded Lunge is a function of your regular attack damage -- Intellect has nothing to do with that.

I just checked that. That's not quite true. I leveled up and put points in Intellect and the + damage was increasing. The damage modifier is determined by Intellect.

Yes, but Guardians don't use Intellect much. It is the least vital magical skill for them due to how quickly magic recharges. It seems like Guardians have a choice between Weapon Shaping and Shaping. You have to choose one to invest in, as there are only so many skill points to use. Canisters, charms, and items can somewhat help with this though.

I wonder if a Guardian using cheaper creations, Fyoras, Roamers, or Iron Clawbugs, would have enough essence to build a decent team and have enough points left to increase Weapon Shaping.

On 5/14/2024 at 7:33 PM, alhoon said:

Side question: Is there a way to not kill Phariton's poor servile-mine hybrids AND kill Phariton?  

Yes, get through the whole complex and meet Phariton in a friendly way. Challenge him in his lab and kill him without drawing the serviles into the battle. You may need to play around with the machines in his lab to start the fight or you might be able to just attack him outright, but it is doable.

As for Tuldaric, he's my reservation about the Awakened. I wish there was a way to have the protagonist essentially replace him as the main research Shaper for the Awakened, as Tuldaric has gone off the deep end into ruthless behavior and summoning evil forces.

Melee Weapons and Missile Weapons are the keys to unlocking Weapon Shaping skills. They actually do more for weapon attacks than Strength and Agility.

Strangely, the + stat on Weapon Shaping abilities is increased by Intellect, a skill that Guardians usually invest in the least due to not needing it nearly as much as Essence Mastery and Endurance.

On 5/18/2024 at 1:37 AM, Hyperion703 said:

You might be referring to me. Was the post "Agent Woes"? If so, did you go on to read the entire thread? I did a lot of personal growth in that thread. Today, I'm a reformed man. No longer do I believe in the woes of (higher level) agents. 

 

It's true: solo agents relatively struggle early on, until Essence Shield is available. Once an agent gets ES, the game becomes many degrees easier and there is little that will really threaten. I wouldn't say the easiness is comparable to a shaper, however. At least, not yet. IMO, agents don't get comparable to shapers in terms of raw power until levels 17-19. By then, you will only need three spells: Essence Shield Mass Energize, and either Airshock or Essence Purge. You won't need anything else. 

 

And you will wreck face. From a considerable distance, too. No, agents need neither boost nor buff to thrive.

The poster I was referring to was talking about how Agents were too powerful once they were built correctly, and it sounds like you were saying Agents were weak in the early game and powerful later on. What I'm wondering is if the power spike is due to Battle Magic needing very little investment to become powerful compared to things like Weapon Shaping or Shaping. I was playing this morning and my Shaper, who specialized in creations, was able to do a lot of damage to enemy mobs in Inner Gazak-Uss with three levels of Battle Magic. 

30 minutes ago, alhoon said:

You also don't have to rush fire Shaping... 

I meant joining the Shapers and rushing to buy Drayks right after you complete the demo areas. Joining the Shapers, at least temporarily, in order to get a high level creation at that stage is a rush for that particular creation type.

16 hours ago, ex post slarto said:

Yeah, this does not really seem like a scenario that speaks in favor of Battle Alphas, since other creation types can deal with it better.  If anything this is a scenario where needing to leap rather than breathe is a disadvantage, since often turrets or spinecores (especially spinecores) are spread out over a wide area, and leaping means you will be attacked that round by other spinecores further away, where your ranged attackers would not be in their range yet.

True, the targets can be behind things or have obstructions in the way.

Since Bull Rush is a quick action, a group of Battle Alphas can stun and swiftly destroy all of the buds in one turn while tanking enemy fire. After that, the spinecore itself is easy. Ranged or AoE could be better, but I found this tactic to be a lot of fun to use, especially since I hadn't used Battle Alphas very much before this playthrough.

14 hours ago, ex post slarto said:

I have to echo the "who thinks this?" question, because this isn't the first time you've made a leap from 1 or 2 people saying "X seems really strong" to making superlative statements about game balance.

 

The fact is that these games are balanced primarily for Normal... but they are also not intended to be particularly challenging on Normal.  Every class is designed to be capable of becoming incredibly powerful with good investments, and every class certainly can be played in a way where you slice through enemy encounters like butter.  So having that experience doesn't really speak to one class or skill or whatever being too powerful.

 

The player who pointed out Agent problems and me. One to two people pointing out balance issues is how a lot of balance issues come to light in games. Somebody has to find an issue and draw attention to it. For example, you pointed out that Rotghroths were altered, to likely be weaker, in the latest balance patch and let us find out for ourselves by testing if what you said was correct. Applying your logic, shall I say that Rotghroths cannot truly be verified to be weaker and that your statement was an overgeneralization and not a potential issue? Or should I do what you did in your Shaping Analysis post and what I am doing here with this discussion on Battle Magic: open the subject up for debate and testing by the community.

For me, this isn't about a class per se, this is about a skill line. I keep using Agents as an example because magic is their trademark skill and investing in it is a natural course of action in their gameplay. What I'm thinking is that the issue raised by the other user, about Agents, is potentially a problem with Battle Magic. Basically, if the return on investment for that skill stays very high at a low level of skill, that's an issue. After the early game, Battle Magic spells may gain power too readily for what is put into the Battle Magic skill. Hence my example about my Shaper character and his small amount of skill in Battle Magic being powerful in the endgame. If the skill line needs little investment compared to the alternatives, like melee, missile, or Shaping skills, that means that the skill and its spells are likely in need of tweaking.

I'm essentially pointing out there may be a balance issue with a skill and that there are remarks by another user that could indicate that as well. Therefore, I'm bringing the issue up to the community for their examination. By switching the focus from a discussion about a class to a discussion about a skill, I'm hoping that I'm narrowing the issue down to a quantifiable and testable issue that can be resolved should it be examined and be found to be problematic.

Spiderweb Software is an excellent gaming company with a comparatively small but loyal fanbase. Vogel relies on us to spot issues in his games.

I don't mean any of this to be combative, by the way. I welcome your making me defend my assertions.

20 hours ago, alhoon said:

I respectfully disagree. 

Fyoras are awesome and very cheap for early game. Drayks show up in mid-game and they are good even in end game. Extremely good. 3 drayks are as good as 2 drakons. 

 

 

In fact, I am stunned that the game allows you so powerful creations so early in the game. If you join Lying Zackary the Deceiver, which you could do right out of the demo, a complete noob, you can get drayks. And you could use those drayks aaaaaaaall the way to the endgame without being too handicapped. Perhaps it is that I have got a bunch of robes and +magic damage equipment early-ish, but I don't think I would have any trouble at all steamrolling everything with just drayks, without drakons. My Drakons are 1-2 level higher than the Drayks and do significantly more damage but they have "cost" me 2-3 points of essence mastery. 

True, Fyoras are good for a Shaper. Guardians have decent Fyoras but they can be somewhat tough to keep alive against groups of enemies with AoE. I have never joined Zakary in the early game to rush Drayks, so I can't speak to that.

My issue is the return on investment for skills. You were talking about rushing skills. These Battle Magic skills you don't need to rush and seemingly don't need to invest very much in compared to the other combat styles. You have to invest a lot in Shaping and weapon skills to be good in the endgame. It seems like very little Battle Magic is needed to be quite powerful.

11 hours ago, Randomizer said:

The Everfrost Mine canister is only accessible if you do the Sholai Mission quest and while you are there the that time. The bunker is closed if you don't use it and return later.

Thank you for the information! That's interesting, and good to know. If I helped the Sholai and decided I wanted the canister later, it'd be unavailable.

True, but Battle Magic can inflict DoT status effects too. Those and stuns are what I usually go for. If you can essentially blast entire groups of endgame enemies to smithereens with one character, with little effort, I'd argue that that means the abilities are overpowered on Normal difficulty. My glass Shaper was able to solo most enemies while his creations were busy, and that was with little Battle Magic skill.

That is probably why people on Normal were getting the impression that Agents were too powerful even though she gets the same number of skill points as Shapers and Guardians. If she only needs five levels in Battle Magic and enough Blessing Magic to get Essence Shield, she has a lot of points to play with in other skills. Compare that to the Shaper who needs around nine levels in his Shaping field to fight well in the endgame, and then some levels of Blessing Magic. Or compare it to a Guardian who needs eight or nine levels in melee weapons and some Blessing Magic. Nine levels in key skills versus thirteen or fourteen. That's a big difference in investment versus payoff.

Three Ur-Drakons would be very expensive, and you'd have to wait until the nearly the endgame to have enough Shaping skill and essence to field them. A character with Battle Magic, Shaper or Agent, can start getting this kind of power a lot faster and maintain that level of power through the game. It seems to be a simpler and easier route to a lot of power for less investment of effort and skill points.

5 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

 

I am 95% sure you can go to the Mine (I guess - not there yet) without ever talking to the Sholai. You walk there. 

Take it from me though NEVER trust Lying Zackary the Deceiver! He tells you one thing, and means something opposite. The Sholai showed up because of Zakary, BTW. Barzhal is in favor because he's a madman. An oppressive madman. It is quite telling that all his "poweeeerzzz for eeeeveryyyyoneeee!!!!" does not include sharing the secrets of Drakons till it is time to use them as some disgruntled Barzhite tells you. 

 

Now, on your other part of the question: It is suboptimal to go for both magic / battle creations. It has been proven that it is better to have one category at 12 than two categories at 9/9. Also, Battle-Betas and Ur-Glaahks are considered by those that do the number-crunching too expensive for their worth.  

I think the canister is only accessible during that quest though. The bunkers are closed until you bring the Sholai with you.

I don't trust Zakary. The man wants you to fix his mistakes and he sat on his hands while supposedly hoping that Shanti, who he basically imprisoned, was going to join him. He was probably hoping that she'd see the extent of the damage he unleashed and that way she'd help him before returning to the Shapers. When she died, he switched his attention over to her apprentice. Pinner is a good leader though.

Barzahl's idea is the democratization of power and eternal youth at the cost of sanity and morals. That's a nightmare scenario.

I should clarify that I was speaking of an either or situation, not mixing creation types. I would like a team of either Battle Betas or Ur-Glaahks with different characters. My current team of Battle Alphas is pretty good, but my issue is that there doesn't seem to be enough Essence Mastery to build a completely upgraded team of standard tier three Shaper creation types, let alone their upgraded forms.

To answer the questions raised:

I mean a full team as in seven creations. I usually like to aim for things like Drayks, Battle Alphas, or Glaahks, and upgrade them. Ideally I'd like to get a full team of Battle Betas or Ur-Glaahks and upgrade them to see how they fare.

I generally play as an Awakened or Servant.

I refused to take the Sholai to Everfrost Mine. Can you complete the quest and then eradicate them? I agree with Pinner and Zakary that spreading Shaping to the Sholai lands would be a horrible idea. That Barzahl is in favor of it is rather telling.

47 minutes ago, Slariton said:

What difficulty is this on?

 

(Before somebody sends an angry reply, every difficulty is a valid and good way to play.  I'm asking because some tactics work better on easier or harder difficulties, so it's good context to have when hearing that something feels overpowered.)

This is normal difficulty. I usually play at that difficulty, and I figure that most players will play it at least once. Particularly when they are trying a new build.

29 minutes ago, Slariton said:

You can access every creation sooner than the Loyalist Encampment.  That's only a perk if you are playing Taker, Barzite, or Non-Aligned and you refuse to temporarily join Zakary or the Awakened.

 

I would like to emphasize, again, that the analysis in the OP is a relative comparison.  Any creation of high enough level (okay, not ornks) can shred turrets and spinecores (which have practically no defenses anyway).  Any creation, with high enough shaping skill, can be strong.  But some will still be stronger than others.

That's true. I like to play as a neutral character until the endgame. That way, I can do most of the neutral or reputation building missions and access a number of merchants to sell my junk to.

The thing I like about Battle Alphas is that they can completely freeze a line of turrets, shrubs, or spinecores, by hitting them with a charge that stuns them. Just one move on their part and they can reach and stop enemy acid or AoE emplacements from attacking. It also gets them closer to the spinecore itself and makes those battles quicker and easier.

I was playing as an endgame Shaper attacking the Takers, with three levels of Battle Magic and three levels of Firebolt, and my character was able to take out Drayks and Battle Alphas, or Battle Betas, in two hits. With the Gloves of Spell Mastery, Haste, and Searer or Essence Lances, he was able to annihilate mobs of enemies and inflict a lot of damage on enemy bosses.

Basically he was an artillery piece with only a few levels of Battle Magic, one of which was provided by a trinket. Imagine how strong would a character with eight levels would be. I'm thinking that Battle Magic could use some tweaking, as it seems to have quite a power jump around the middle of the game and it stays very powerful in the endgame. Again, this was powerful against mobs and against bosses with high resistances. A bit back there was a discussion as to if Agents are overpowered. I don't think so anymore. I'm wondering if this is what players were hitting on with that idea.

My current issue with Essence Mastery is that it requires the protagonist to make deals with infernals in order to get enough Essence to upgrade endgame creations.

My Shaper used the Essence Mastery canister in the Geneforge and is level 21, with only Gazak-Uss to go, but he still don't have enough essence to fully upgrade his team of Battle Alphas, or to replace them with Battle Betas.

I've been playing a Battle Shaping character and using Battle Alphas:

They are not flashy, but they are reliable and strong. What they excel at is storming fortified emplacements. Turrets and Spinecores get shredded by them.

Their reliance on health over resistance makes their Enrage ability a poor choice for endgame battles. Virtually everything has AoE magic or single target burst damage that can incinerate them. You may need to use Essence Shield and Regenerate on them for fights against bosses.

Riposte isn't reliable enough to take. Most endgame enemies will use magic or ranged attacks.

Their knockback mechanics can be difficult to use until you've had some practice. Battle Alphas can move enemies away that they meant to stun or daze. However, against stun and daze resistant enemies this can be useful and fun to use. Bosses can be maneuvered around the battlefield. I managed to knockback the Bound One and keep it from fleeing. After that, I surrounded it and crushed it.

A perk of Battle Alphas is that you can learn them as soon as you reach the Loyalist Camp, and in Rising and the Radiant College you can get a canister and upgrade to increase your skill with Battle Alphas to level four. Endgame you can get that stat to level five. So they can keep up with enemies even if you have to spend a skill point on something besides Battle Shaping.

Overall, Battle Alphas are a strong creation. I think they'd be a little stronger if Riposte was replaced with Hardiness, to make them a little tougher against the enemies that do use melee weapons. But they were fun to play once I knew how to use them, and in most situations, they were able to handle what the enemy threw at them long enough for my Shaper to intervene with buffs or healing.

7 hours ago, Lorn said:

So, I’ve played and finished G2. I’m happy that I’ve played it, but I fear I won’t be buying G3 because as much as I liked G2, I feel like it has far too many issues for me. In fact, the bad outweighs the good and does so really exponentially.

1) My first gripe is that nothing you did in G1 truly matters. I guess that having consequences based on what how you decided to behave in the first game would be a huge spending in time, effort and money.

It’s not like the consequences of what happened in g1 should be instant – but I would say that having references to a powerhungry shaper that came from Sucia and people like Barzahl coming from there with stuff would make a nice reference. That is, if the player has decided to use the Geneforge in the end. The same can be said for Sholai ending and so on. I guess that I would have loved some references, rather than the story being already decided (it seems to me the ending chosen for G1 is player has decided to join obeyers, destroyed the geneforge and came back as a loyalist; or so I guess).

2) In the first game I felt like the protagonist. Truly, I get in and I’m kinda the center of the world because everyone is actually searching for a shaper and I can make a (true) difference for all the parties.. And I’m actually necessary, no matter what. They are not waiting for another shaper to come, because it is unlikely to happen.

In G2 I feel like mostly a guy that does errands for other people, unimportant to the best, with no respect being given because I’m just another gear for the many people that are already there. No one cares about me, but I’m supposed to care about the others. I couldn’t care less.

I will say that in G1, I wanted to discover Sucia Island not because I was told so, but because I wasn’t even sure that I could reach a boat. It was a matter of life and death.
If the path for a boat was clearer and easier (meaning that I didn’t have to get the nutrients required) I would have left before because I couldn’t care less about Sucia. The island is barred and I shouldn’t be here. And I’m hunted everywhere I go and I’m also a weak shaper.

Not even in the taker ending the geneforge can be used. You get augmented by the Drakon Rhakkas or what's his name and all it did in my game was open a new shop. Nice.

 

What is there for the protagonist? I guess that someone can be satisfied by being described as a God in the ending scenes. I couldn’t care less. I want to see a difference in game, wish to see these amazing powers everyone talks about.

As for now, my power is reaching level 20 (after many deaths) and being content having two augmented drayks and an incomplete (meaning that I can’t select all the stuff I want when making it) drayk, for a total of three drayks. Against 1500-2200 hp "bosses"/important mobs. Right.

 

3) I do not feel like that in this game the protagonist gets that stronger. I think part of the issue stems from the xp system in place, but in general, while playing, I felt like I was obscenely worse there than in G1.

The problem with open ended games is the sequels. The manufacturer has to pick an ending and stick with it. That means that player choice from one game to the other can be partially disregarded in order to keep the plot of the series going. I mean, if the Shaper of Geneforge 2 was an Awakened character the series would have been completely different. This sort of plot necessity showed up in Avadon as well. For an outside example of this, that was very egregious, Baldur's Gate. People were agog over the M-rated BGIII, but they obliterated most of what the player did in Baldur's Gate I and II in order to remake a lot of the same plot with a modern gaming engine.

Have you tried Avernum? That may be more to your taste. The games propelled you towards one major ending, with numerous smaller plot choices that defined your characters.

The stats and powers of Geneforge 2: Infestation are tighter than they were in the previous games. If you don't do the right builds, you can feel like you are constantly playing catch up. What sort of build did you go for?

2 hours ago, Hyperion703 said:

@Magenta I could have written this post myself- I'm dealing with the exact same issue. My first run, and probably my favorite so far, was a solo agent. It's hard to understate the fun of not having to micromanage a bunch of creatures. Solo agent was quick, simple, just take care of myself.

 

And yes, ES was the single most important spell for my agent. It allowed me to wear relatively flimsy (but bonus-laden) robes without being too vulnerable. In fact, many of my high-level battles involved recasting ES once each turn and using AS or EP to strike back. Few enemies hit hard enough to break through my 350+ ES.

 

Watch out for stun! That's the only thing that can really bring an ES agent down, as you cannot re-up on your ES each turn.

 

I played a Barzite Shaper next. Super powerful but kinda boring with lots of micromanagement.

 

Now I'm playing a guardian. Only about nine levels in. He specializes in magic creations. Right now he's getting his ass kicked hard. The positioning needed to make melee work can be challenging. And I'm struggling with making my essence last. It's cool to value items I've always passed up. But there is even more micromanaging than even shapers imo. I'm finding it tedious.

 

I might just walk away from this playthrough and do another solo agent.

Magic Shaping Guardians are harder to play due to the Guardian's lower essence and him not starting with any Magic Shaping. That bites him when he is trying to make his creations for his primary ranged support due to lower level creations and the lack of essence to spend on upgrades. What sort of creations are you using right now?

44 minutes ago, alhoon said:

For me, it is more than just "they can't finish the job". You can finish the game without Creations at all, so obviously you can finish with Alphas. BUT... 
Alphas are ... boring. 

True, they can do the job, for the most part, but they lack the flair of the other creations. Some variance in the abilities between Battle Alphas and Battle Betas may help that, I think.