Genernumlover

3 hours ago, Slariton said:

It's not potential, it's already happened.

 

Battle Alphas are probably the best battle creation now, overall, yeah.  They have some ability to try and use statuses to control things, they have a leap, which makes wasted early turns less likely, and they are adequately sturdy.  Less sturdy than rots, but also cheaper than rots.  If you really wanted to go battle shaping, you might still run 1 or 2 rots for the DoT and to have slightly sturdier frontliners.  But I'd lean most on alphas.  (But I also wouldn't go battle shaping in the first place, not anymore.)

I've been playing offline for a bit, and so I haven't seen any recent updates. So I have this to look forward to the next time I go online, and just when I was building a character that was going to go heavy on Battle Shaping.

Battle Alphas as the best Battle Creation is rather odd. They aren't a bad creation so much as they are a bit of a boring one, in my opinion.

With the changes to Fire Creations, did Vogel just make the strong creations in that category stronger? And with these changes to Rotghroths, doesn't that put Battle Shaping back at the bottom of the Shaping list?

That's an alarming change. So, Battle Alphas are now the best Battle Creation?

Is this a potential Steam update we are discussing here?

13 minutes ago, earanhart said:

Based in where Spiderweb Software is legally registered, the three big rules for nodding are

1) you cannot make money off of the mod

2) you mod cannot risk allowing unpaid access to game content (don't steal from Jeff Vogel)

And 3) your mod must require access to a legally obtained copy of the base program

 

Keep inside those, and any disagreements will be VERY in the weeds. Some major companies will send C&Ds and harass modmakers with lawyers based on particular phrasing in the EULAs, but assuming you stop after that C&D you aren't in trouble for anything if you followed the first 3 rules.

 

Now, that's the LEGAL, side, and this is not legal advice. The moral and ethical side of this debate, as well as staying in Jeff's good graces, are an entirely different matter and a whole different set of arguments.

That's good to know. I think I'll still send an email and get his permission should I decide to give modding a try. Even if it is acceptable to mod the game right now, I don't want to annoy Vogel, and getting his permission would completely end any remaining issues with copyright.

7 minutes ago, Slariton said:

 

 

Setting a status effect at range is not the same thing as meaningful "ranged damage."  And endgame enemies are also more likely to have high resistances that make status effects not so handy.

True, but poison and acid can somewhat weaken an enemy before your creations get to melee range. And, in the early game at least, enemies have little resistance to them. Acid is particularly effective given how early you can get Iron Clawbugs.

Endgame bosses are annoying with how much they can tank or resist. Can endgame bosses resist the Drakon's flame effect? I haven't tested that on them yet.

Just now, alhoon said:

Does the new update with the increased chance for haste significantly alter the balance of creations? 

There's an update?

AoE anything with a status effect is good for me. Endgame enemies tend to have healing or high health that makes a status effect very handy.

I haven't invested much in Stealth. Does that work on your whole party or just your character?

Thanks everybody. Without Vogel's okay I don't think I will do any modding. I may email him and ask for it, should I decide that I really want to create a Geneforge mod. But I won't do any modding without the owner giving permission. I don't want to get risk irritating the guy who makes the games I like, and I don't want to risk getting into any copyright trouble by modding his game without his approval.

Thank you for the information!

It sounds like I missed an opportunity with War Tralls there. It might be worth dusting off Geneforge 5 for a try.

I was wondering about the issue of range with Battle Creations. It sounds like you'd need to stick to something like Iron Clawbugs to have some ranged damage with them.

Ack, I edited that post to be more concise while you were replying. That's my bad.

Really? Tralls were good in Geneforge 5? I didn't tend to use Battle Shaping in the originals because I found the others more interesting.

What about in the remakes? How would you rate Battle Shaping here?

That's what I said: the higher base for Magic Creations makes them more expensive overall.

I haven't tried using the Gazer AoE, so I can't speak to that.

For the remakes I usually like to build smaller groups of high quality creations, or one or two, as opposed to building a full group of weaker creations. It gets exasperating seeing them shoot at bosses and miss all the time. For a Guardian, it is generally better to invest that way.

Speaking of which, have you tried a Battle Shaping Guardian? It is both interesting and somewhat difficult. I mean, he can do it but his ranged abilities are quite limited. Though, it is amusing to march into battle with a squad and just fight your way out of the battle.

For my servile games, I used Cryoras until the middle of the game. They were basically all I could afford.

Wingbolts were one of your mains? What, if anything, did you build with them?

Every non-Sholai sect in Drypeak lives there and is fighting against the other powers that live in that area. It is essentially a local cold war turning hot. The Sholai aren't fighting like that, and they are going to leave. The Sholai are also trying to take and copy Shaper knowledge and return it to their homeland. They know that the knowledge is dangerous and controlled tightly by the Shapers, and that essence can be used to create creatures for battle. They also know that the Shapers would certainly consider it theft and destroy their expedition. The Sholai are trying to take advantage of the conflict in the Drypeak Mountains to take away what they want.

If this was a discussion of nations in the real world, virtually any nation would consider it theft if an unallied foreign power was taking their knowledge and technology without their consent. That is especially true if it is knowledge and technology that has a global impact, like Shaping has in Geneforge.

I'm not saying the Sholai are evil, but they are an opportunistic neutral faction that is willing to steal when it benefits them.

Thank you. Just to clarify a couple of things:

Vogel is fine with this? Some companies get upset about unauthorized mods. I don't want to break his trademark or license.

Can you create new zones and characters?

How do you make mods for Geneforge? I've seen a lot of quality mods, but I don't know much about how to do it myself.

How do you make mods for the new Geneforge? I've seen people making mods since the original games but I don't know how to do it myself.

9 hours ago, Aoslare said:

Alternate possibility: the Sholai are, in fact, relatively benevolent, as they present themselves.

 

You meet Trajkov after he'd used piles of canisters, and at that point he was not clearly not representative of the Sholai culture in general.  (And even at that point, he doesn't seem particularly terrible for this game world.  He's shown be to quite loyal and open-minded in the ending, despite being power-hungry.)  The non-canister Sholai you meet  in OG are rather different, both in G1 and then late in the series when they show up again in G5.

I don't blame the Sholai as a whole for what Trajkov's expedition did. Especially not when some of them tried to help you stop him. It is particularly from the remake of Geneforge 2 that I got the strong impression that the Sholai are opportunistic survivalists instead of benevolent explorers.

The remake of Geneforge 2 shows that the Sholai are willing to play nice while trying to steal someone else's knowledge or technology. That's a way to use another faction to get what you want, not to make a foreign power your trading partner. If that is a normal tactic for the Sholai, that means they are an opportunistic but sometimes helpful neutral party that is more concerned with their own continued existence and prosperity before anything else.

True, but most Magic Creations have a higher base cost, making the majority of them slightly more expensive to upgrade. That is somewhat compensated for by their versatility though. The support abilities they have can make them quite useful.

That being said, I was surprised by how expensive a Searing Artila is. Compare them to the relatively inexpensive Iron Clawbug, an improved tier 2 creation, and the Artila has much better AoE spam but worse cost efficiency. If an acid effect AoE, and not acid AoE spam, is all you are going for, the Iron Clawbug is a better value. The cooldown on the ability is short enough so that you can just repeat the AoE every couple of turns to keep the damage effect going, and the Iron Clawbug tanks attacks from enemies hit by the spread much better than the Artila.

I used Cryoras or Vlish, depending on what Shaping I was using, through most of the original Geneforge series. If I was playing a class with weaker Shaping in Geneforge 5, I usually went for Fire Shaping, due to how quickly you could get Cryoras. Vlish I used primarily as a stopgap on my way to better Magic Creations. They were still usable, but you couldn't really rely on them being your main creations for most of the game like you could in Geneforge 1, 2, and 3.

Most of the improved versions of creations are not worth the investment or they are outclassed by the base creation. That's odd.

The improved Magic Creations are very expensive to upgrade. For example, a fully upgraded Searing Artila costs 48 essence. 4 essence per upgrade is a lot to spend on one creation.

A lot of the staple creations from previous games, like Cryoras and Vlish, are fairly weak. That's probably to encourage more variety in creation use, but I hope they get some adjustments in the next game.

2 hours ago, oceanes said:

I find it interesting that, when you talk to them and ask that question, they admit that they do not know, except to attempt to learn some form of Shaping, so as not to be on the bad end of a power imbalance. I think one of them also implies that the decision on what to do with the essence once they have it will be up to the homeland leadership, not them. The Sholai as a culture seem to have been made aware that they are playing catch-up to the Shapers, and are trying to find ways to get on an even footing as quickly as possible. Combining this with their geas magic, and what seems to be a longstanding policy of keeping their homeland secret, seems to indicate a reactive, defensive mindset that simultaneously seeks to avoid wars through trade while also never presenting a vulnerability for foreigners to exploit. Of course, they could be soft-selling themselves by claiming to want diplomacy and trade, but none of the unaugmented Sholai we meet act like people from an expansionist empire. They are oddly skittish, though. They fear things, but rather than fighting or hiding, seek to know everything about everything in order to outwit or work around it. It really makes me want to know the set of conditions and diplomatic neighborhood that created this mindset. Who are the Sholai used to dealing with, that this is their approach?

The Sholai seem to be taking a cloak and dagger approach to things while approaching with a seemingly open hand. That means that they are used to being outsiders, possibly from visiting other lands, and their mindset is likely built on a survivalist mindset from living in their frozen homeland. To Sholai culture as a whole, the survival of the Sholai people likely comes before everything else. Being a seemingly benevolent nation of merchant explorers  with a nearly unassailable homeland is a good way to survive. That way, trade becomes a way to examine other nation's goods and weapons, while exchanging knowledge and spying is a way to get new magic and skills while revealing little of the Sholai themselves. You might think of the Sholai as a more secretive and weaker version of Haven. Except, instead of expanding the empire or reclaiming lost territory, it is the continued survival and growth of their homeland that is the key to the Sholai's motivations.

16 hours ago, Aoslare said:

It doesn't, though.  Ellhrah canonically makes it to Drypeak.  And Rydell appears to have as well, given that he has a grave marker in Ellhrah's tomb.  Gnorrel, meanwhile, was "killed when you Shapers came," and these shapers who killed her "take Kazg. Gnorrel. Food. Everything" -- which sounds more like a dedicated cleansing team and less like the PC.

True, I had forgotten that two servile leaders made it off of Sucia alive. That means that the hero just left after killing Trajkov. That Shaper took out the main threat and left the Shapers to decide the fate of the serviles.

So, Vogel added characters and writing that broke the lore of the game for no reason. The Geneforge sample quest from the Sholai merchant was enough to add to the groundwork for the second game. There were easier ways to get another ending. Just about anybody loyal to the Shapers could've offered the "destroy all the leaders" quest if they had landed on the island. And the fact that the Shaper trio won't help the protagonist with training and that they just bunkered down when the world was at stake was ridiculous.

12 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

This Rebel tells you: Only if you play "powerhungry that should never have been a Shaper anyway". Most of the time, the Rebels promise you power. Not freedom for the Serviles. The Rebels are MUCH closer to the Takers than the Awakened for 80% of the game. 
The way the Rebels are portrayed in the GF3, it is puzzling that Greta joins the Rebellion. It was also her friends that got slaughtered and she is O_O on the spawned Litalia leaves in the first island for the laughs and giggles. 

That would make the character a mirror image of Litalia. After all, she started out believing that she was going to be fighting for a just cause, the 20%, and turned into a merciless canister addict later on. It sounds like Litalia wanted to turn a Shaper as Ghaldring turned her to the Rebels, and she succeeded. Fingers crossed that there is a better ending added to the game for the remake.

Greta always blamed the protagonist or the Shapers at large for what the Rebels did. If you take her to that spawner, she turns and the dialogue says she almost blames you for it. She essentially blames you, as a representative of the Shapers, instead of the Rebels who made it. She kept that attitude of "The Shapers are at fault for what the Rebels are doing" through the game. With her deciding that the Shapers are corrupt, which is true, and putting the responsibility for Rebel actions on the Shapers, joining the Rebels who are supposedly fighting for a new system would be a natural choice for her.

I meant more in the idea that they bring about a different ending. The Shaper trio had some big problems, but the "kill all the leaders and leave" quest was what the lore indicates the hero did.

And I'm not saying they should. I'm saying that this is the last Weapon Shaping skill and the only real crowd control skill in the list. For holding both of those positions, it isn't strong enough.

1 hour ago, Aoslare said:

My money still says the Sholai will be a tiny third faction in G3C, like the Trakovites were in G4.

That would be nice. I hope that they function like the Shaper trio did in Geneforge Mutagen and fill in some missing information.

I was always puzzled by the motivations of the protagonist of Geneforge 3. The character apparently helped the Rebels, I the reasons for doing so were shaky. The Rebels killed the Shaper's fellow students and the teachers of the school. Further, they unleashed havoc across the islands, callously manipulating the populace in several cases. Plus the Shaper saw that prolonged canister use can make an individual go insane or fall apart like Hoge.

With all of that in mind, what was the reason for that Shaper to join the Rebels? Justice? He or she saw as much cruelty and injustice from the Rebels as from the Shapers. It seems like that the hero of Geneforge 3 has very little reason to leave the Shapers for the Rebels.

A Sholai ending could answer the above. It could be a "keep the war going until we can get rid of Shaping" ending like the Trakovite ending of Geneforge 4. That would fit the motivations of a protagonist who saw firsthand the horrors of Shaping used in warfare. It would also explain why both Alwan and Greta are reluctant to speak of that Shaper.

56 minutes ago, Aoslare said:

For shapers and agents with access to stuff like Airshock - most of the time, absolutely!

 

For guardians who are avoiding investment in magic, and aren't using magic shaping, what exactly is their alternative?  (And given the weapon skill required to use it, this is mainly gonna be a guardian thing anyway.)

 

And for any PC, the fact that it's a radius ability and therefore won't hit friendly targets does give it potential utility in crowded locations.

That's the point: Guardian's Roar is supposed to be the Guardian's crowd control skill, and it is underwhelming. The reason Guardian players are looking for an alternative is because the ability that is supposed to fill the crowd control spot isn't cutting it.

Neither of the options for Guardians are very good. You either cast Guardian's Roar and hope for the best or put some points in Mental Magic for Daze and hope that you get lucky. Like I said, the options are not that great.

In a lot of fights, Guardians end up relying more on AoE creations for crowd control, and that draws enemy fire to them and gets them killed. Guardians basically end up trying to outfight the enemy in a manner that doesn't require crowd control.

6 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Jeff mentioned in beta testing that he upgraded its duration to make it the most powerful version of terror in the game. 

 

I still don't like using it and too many boss creations in the Taker Lands have high mental resistances when you would want to use it. Otherwise they don't have the health to withstand other attacks.

I find this to be the best solution so far, just having my Guardian tank fire and trying to kill the enemy before they can destroy my Guardian's team.

5 minutes ago, alhoon said:

 

Sholai showing up to Lord Rhaul to beg for Shaper help to deal with catastrophic accidents they caused, would be my guess. And either joining the Rebels or the Shapers looking for help. 

That'd be a good twist on things. Shaping is supposed to be extremely dangerous. For a bunch of novices who think they can steal it and control it straight away, that'd be a recipe for a Shaping disaster. The Sholai coming for help with their disaster only to see that things are even worse in the Ashen Isles would cause them to rethink their actions. That could be the founding of the Trakovites.

Yes, it does.  An untargetable terrify is too random to be of much use in harder fights. It is outclassed by the alternatives because of that. I regard enemy terrify as an annoyance, but stun is generally more deadly.

The chances of the enemy benefiting from terrify are higher than they appear. For some reason, random effects that have a low chance of benefitting the enemy usually do end up benefitting them quite a bit.

Basically, Guardian's Roar is underwhelming as it currently is. That's also why I am suggesting changes that could make the ability more useful in the future. Vogel is going to be modifying and experimenting with different skills as the remake series progresses. Because of that, bringing to light that this ability is supposed to be powerful but is actually less useful than it seems is a useful debate to have. It lets players discuss their experiences with it and offer suggestions on how to change it for the better.

The short answer would seem to be that the Sholai are greedy.

A more hopeful answer is that the Sholai are hoping to terraform their homeland to make it more inhabitable. Wasn't their homeland supposed to be a frozen realm?

Regardless, the Sholai are trying too hard. There is taking advantage of a situation, and there is trying to steal powers that have catastrophic consequences when they are misused. It sounds like the Sholai expedition either fails, or that they are going to cause a horrendous accident in their homeland. That could be a new leading element of the story for the Trakovite faction.

If they come back in the Geneforge 3 remake having mastered Shaping easily, that'd be poor writing on Vogel's part.