Genernumlover

Most of the improved versions of creations are not worth the investment or they are outclassed by the base creation. That's odd. The improved Magic Creations are very expensive to upgrade. For example, a fully upgraded Searing Artila costs 48 essence. 4 essence per upgrade is a lot to spend on one creation. A lot of the staple creations from previous games, like Cryoras and Vlish, are fairly weak. That's probably to encourage more variety in creation use, but I hope they get some adjustments in the next game.

The Sholai seem to be taking a cloak and dagger approach to things while approaching with a seemingly open hand. That means that they are used to being outsiders, possibly from visiting other lands, and their mindset is likely built on a survivalist mindset from living in their frozen homeland. To Sholai culture as a whole, the survival of the Sholai people likely comes before everything else. Being a seemingly benevolent nation of merchant explorers with a nearly unassailable homeland is a good way to survive. That way, trade becomes a way to examine other nation's goods and weapons, while exchanging knowledge and spying is a way to get new magic and skills while revealing little of the Sholai themselves. You might think of the Sholai as a more secretive and weaker version of Haven. Except, instead of expanding the empire or reclaiming lost territory, it is the continued survival and growth of their homeland that is the key to the Sholai's motivations.

True, I had forgotten that two servile leaders made it off of Sucia alive. That means that the hero just left after killing Trajkov. That Shaper took out the main threat and left the Shapers to decide the fate of the serviles. So, Vogel added characters and writing that broke the lore of the game for no reason. The Geneforge sample quest from the Sholai merchant was enough to add to the groundwork for the second game. There were easier ways to get another ending. Just about anybody loyal to the Shapers could've offered the "destroy all the leaders" quest if they had landed on the island. And the fact that the Shaper trio won't help the protagonist with training and that they just bunkered down when the world was at stake was ridiculous. That would make the character a mirror image of Litalia. After all, she started out believing that she was going to be fighting for a just cause, the 20%, and turned into a merciless canister addict later on. It sounds like Litalia wanted to turn a Shaper as Ghaldring turned her to the Rebels, and she succeeded. Fingers crossed that there is a better ending added to the game for the remake. Greta always blamed the protagonist or the Shapers at large for what the Rebels did. If you take her to that spawner, she turns and the dialogue says she almost blames you for it. She essentially blames you, as a representative of the Shapers, instead of the Rebels who made it. She kept that attitude of "The Shapers are at fault for what the Rebels are doing" through the game. With her deciding that the Shapers are corrupt, which is true, and putting the responsibility for Rebel actions on the Shapers, joining the Rebels who are supposedly fighting for a new system would be a natural choice for her.

I meant more in the idea that they bring about a different ending. The Shaper trio had some big problems, but the "kill all the leaders and leave" quest was what the lore indicates the hero did.

And I'm not saying they should. I'm saying that this is the last Weapon Shaping skill and the only real crowd control skill in the list. For holding both of those positions, it isn't strong enough.

That would be nice. I hope that they function like the Shaper trio did in Geneforge Mutagen and fill in some missing information. I was always puzzled by the motivations of the protagonist of Geneforge 3. The character apparently helped the Rebels, I the reasons for doing so were shaky. The Rebels killed the Shaper's fellow students and the teachers of the school. Further, they unleashed havoc across the islands, callously manipulating the populace in several cases. Plus the Shaper saw that prolonged canister use can make an individual go insane or fall apart like Hoge. With all of that in mind, what was the reason for that Shaper to join the Rebels? Justice? He or she saw as much cruelty and injustice from the Rebels as from the Shapers. It seems like that the hero of Geneforge 3 has very little reason to leave the Shapers for the Rebels. A Sholai ending could answer the above. It could be a "keep the war going until we can get rid of Shaping" ending like the Trakovite ending of Geneforge 4. That would fit the motivations of a protagonist who saw firsthand the horrors of Shaping used in warfare. It would also explain why both Alwan and Greta are reluctant to speak of that Shaper.

That's the point: Guardian's Roar is supposed to be the Guardian's crowd control skill, and it is underwhelming. The reason Guardian players are looking for an alternative is because the ability that is supposed to fill the crowd control spot isn't cutting it. Neither of the options for Guardians are very good. You either cast Guardian's Roar and hope for the best or put some points in Mental Magic for Daze and hope that you get lucky. Like I said, the options are not that great. In a lot of fights, Guardians end up relying more on AoE creations for crowd control, and that draws enemy fire to them and gets them killed. Guardians basically end up trying to outfight the enemy in a manner that doesn't require crowd control. I find this to be the best solution so far, just having my Guardian tank fire and trying to kill the enemy before they can destroy my Guardian's team.

That'd be a good twist on things. Shaping is supposed to be extremely dangerous. For a bunch of novices who think they can steal it and control it straight away, that'd be a recipe for a Shaping disaster. The Sholai coming for help with their disaster only to see that things are even worse in the Ashen Isles would cause them to rethink their actions. That could be the founding of the Trakovites.

Yes, it does. An untargetable terrify is too random to be of much use in harder fights. It is outclassed by the alternatives because of that. I regard enemy terrify as an annoyance, but stun is generally more deadly. The chances of the enemy benefiting from terrify are higher than they appear. For some reason, random effects that have a low chance of benefitting the enemy usually do end up benefitting them quite a bit. Basically, Guardian's Roar is underwhelming as it currently is. That's also why I am suggesting changes that could make the ability more useful in the future. Vogel is going to be modifying and experimenting with different skills as the remake series progresses. Because of that, bringing to light that this ability is supposed to be powerful but is actually less useful than it seems is a useful debate to have. It lets players discuss their experiences with it and offer suggestions on how to change it for the better.

The short answer would seem to be that the Sholai are greedy. A more hopeful answer is that the Sholai are hoping to terraform their homeland to make it more inhabitable. Wasn't their homeland supposed to be a frozen realm? Regardless, the Sholai are trying too hard. There is taking advantage of a situation, and there is trying to steal powers that have catastrophic consequences when they are misused. It sounds like the Sholai expedition either fails, or that they are going to cause a horrendous accident in their homeland. That could be a new leading element of the story for the Trakovite faction. If they come back in the Geneforge 3 remake having mastered Shaping easily, that'd be poor writing on Vogel's part.

Basically you can have enemies, melee or ranged, get their attacks or splash damage lined up for them by the terrify effect ending. They can make a panicked run to positions that are more advantageous for hitting your damaged creations or for blocking your Guardian from reaching a critical target.

The Purifying Blade is extremely powerful once you've leveled it up. As it starts, Bunk's Blade or the Guardian Claymore have better perks, but slowly get outclassed in one hit damage. As you indicated, it amounts to perks versus damage. Two thoughts on Weapon Shaping: Guardian Push would function better if it were a push or pull technique that let your character move the target three spaces in any direction. It'd be a form of crowd control and a gap closer that would let the Guardian have more control over early game battles. A potential fix for Guardian's Roar could be one that weakens and strengthens it at the same time: make it an aimed cone attack that terrifies enemies in the cone and puts a long lasting secondary effect on enemies in a circle around the Guardian. The cone would somewhat mimic how sound works in real life. If I'm yelling in one direction and you can still hear me from another it wouldn't be as loud. Plus, the directed nature of the attack would give the Guardian more control over who goes running in circles. Meanwhile, the secondary effect would increase the survivability of the Guardian and his creations in the event the terrified enemy minions charge into the Guardian or his squad. For the secondary effect I'm thinking of something more basic as opposed to a Wrack or Wrackwave. A slow or curse effect alone would suffice, but the secondary effect shouldn't be Wrack using slightly different mechanics.

This isn't about reaching a perfect balance. For me, this is about each class being powerful in their own right and distinctive. One class being able to use the abilities of the other classes nearly as well, or as well, as they can and having its own unique gameplay is not fun.

I don't think there is a reset cheat like that. I made a mistake with a quest, with that wandering Shaper, and I had to reload from an earlier save.

Except that viable is the standard that most players use for investing in Shaping skills and creations. I'm not going to put a bunch of points in Stalkthorn, but focus on a Rotghroth instead. That's why the creation analysis thread you wrote is so important to players. It helps us measure the viability of Shaping skills and creation choices. The main issue is the question raised by the thread: can an Agent match or nearly match the other classes in their specializations while still being the best in her own at the same time? For a hypothetical example, if she is functioning like she has one strong and two medium skillsets due to current gameplay, even if the character screen says one skillset is supposed to be weak, that'd mean the Agent is too strong and needs some adjustment. Beta testing doesn't catch everything. I also said "If that is true." That's why I said Vogel should be alerted to the issue, so that he can look into it and determine it based on his viewpoint as someone who tinkers directly with the game. I'm not suggesting drastically altering the game right here and now with no examination. What I am suggesting is alerting someone who can look into the game's inner workings and tell us if there is a balance issue that has been overlooked.

If that is true you should email Spiderweb Software directly. That's a major game balance issue you've uncovered. Overpowering one class to be able to match either of the others in their specializations while still having her own specialization means that the Agent is currently overpowered. It sounds like Vogel overcompensated for the earlier difficulty playing Agents. He should either nerf the Agent or increase the stats of the other classes so that they are more equal. I'm in favor of buffing the other classes. Agents should be powerful, but that doesn't mean the other classes should be weaker by comparison.

A Guardian with splash damage creations can annihilate whole squads of weaker enemies with a well placed Chain Lightning, while Essence Lash is good for bosses. I put Guarded Lunge and Lifedrain in the top spots not because of their sheer power, but because of how much they get used and how reliable they are. Odds are, a Guardian is going to be using one or the other for every boss battle in the game. True, you really don't use Guardian Pash past the early game. It gets left behind as your character levels up. Exactly, it is expensive and it is supposed to be quite powerful. However, for its position in the game, it is arguably the least useful of the mass crowd control spells due to its drawbacks. Overall, I think most Weapon Shaping skills are good, but Guardian's Roar, in particular, needs some work to make it more useful.

This is Weapon Shaping in order of usefulness, with credit to Slawbug's post on creation analysis for inspiring me to use the color palette for emphasis. Thanks to everyone who advised me on how to build my Guardian, on who I tested this gameplay. Essential: Guarded Lunge and Lifedrain. Both of the above are critical to a Guardian's gameplay and they remain useful through the entire game. Guarded Lunge shields you, lets your creations hit bosses, and makes your characters do more damage to the target. Lifedrain pairs nicely with Regeneration to keep your character alive. Guarded Lunge and Lifedrain are the bread and butter of a Guardian's gameplay. Combine them with War Infusion, Blessing Magic, and a couple of creations, and you are good to go. Good: War Infusion, Chain Lightning, Searing Spray, and Essence Lash. These can be useful in a variety of situations. War Infusion is an early game substitute for Blessing Magic, and it remains useful for keeping blessings on your character in the middle of fight. Chain Lightning lets characters damage swarms of enemies while Searing Spray gives the damage over time that the Guardian kit used to lack. Essence Lash is more situational, but it is a good ability that can slow the enemy and harass them with shock damage. Mediocre: Guardian Push. In theory, this is a good ability. The ability to knock back, slow and stun an enemy is good. However, a Guardian is mainly using this to try and keep an enemy away from part of his squad. To do that, the Guardian has to knock them in a different direction. That usually requires precise repositioning for a ranged attack, or running down the target for a melee strike. In most situations, it is more effective to body block the enemy or let creations blast the target down. This ability can be useful in narrow areas or for ranged characters to keep an enemy back to wear them down with baton attacks. Underwhelming: Guardian's Roar. This ability isn't as good as it seems. Scattering enemies is a useful power, but they tend to scatter in all directions. There is also a high risk of panicked enemies running straight into the Guardian's creations or making the situation worse overall. If they do not do that, you may still have to hunt them down if they charge out of the room. And, since many of the endgame bosses have a high enough mental resistance to shrug off mental effects, this technique is only useful to erratically scatter groups of weaker enemies.

That makes sense. Thanks for the information. I was looking around for an orange essence pool to charge them, like in Mutagen. Well, a different installment in the series has slightly different mechanics to play by.

Thanks for the advice! I was wondering if I had made a mistake in not getting Blessing and Mental Magic. It sounds like I did. I made it a point to get Blessing Magic, at the very least, in previous installments, but I was hoping that Weapon Shaping would replace it. It seems like Weapon Shaping is meant more to keep the Guardian going once he is in the battle, but you need Blessing Magic to make the Guardian strong before the battle begins. I was hoping that Evasion would stack and give me a 28% chance of dodging all incoming attacks and therefore I'd drastically increase my survivability. It doesn't seem to work that way though. I didn't know about the Retrain cheat. That'll be handy.

I put some points in Essence Mastery early on in my Shaper game, in order to get more Iron Clawbugs onto the field. I'm glad that I got this information before I wasted anymore points in that. I am planning on mixing Battle and Magic Shaping for a team of Rotghroths backed up by Vlish for ranged support and buffs. I want a wall between my Shaper and whatever is attacking. What is the best overall shaping specialization? I was initially thinking of Fire Shaping, as you can get Fyoras and Roamers to a fairly highly level in the earlier game. Vlish seems like they'd be the best support option though. I'm wondering about which type of shaping is best in general and which is best for a class who isn't mainlining shaping.

For reference, my level 17 solo Guardian has: 8 Strength, 7 Agility, 4 Intellect, 5 Essence Mastery, 7 Endurance, 8 Melee, 5 Missile Weapons, 7 Evasion, 8 Quick Action, 4. Healing Craft, and 8 in Leadership and Mechanics. He can handle most mobs with a hit or two, but spellcasters and bosses nuke him. They stun, slow, and acid him to death, even with equipment that is supposed him to help resist that. It sounds like a fixable problem is that I don't have enough Blessing Magic to buff my character before battles. I got the Intellect and Essence Mastery for boss battles, so that he could cast more. That didn't help as much as I hoped it would. Would a point or two in Mental Magic be useful? Daze was a powerhouse in my Shaper's early game, but I'm wondering how good of an investment it would be in the long term. Also, should I specialize my Guardian's weapon skills more? I added a few levels of Missile Weapons, but it sounds like I could've put those points to better use. I don't use many canisters either, so that avenue of power is limited for my Guardian.

I've tried repeatedly tried playing with a Guardian, my favorite class through the original Geneforge series, and it is hard. A solo Guardian gets nuked into oblivion by enemy casters and bosses. Meanwhile, If you play as the tip of the spear for creations, you have to tank all the stuns, acid, and poison, yourself. A lot of the time, the melee Guardian is just trying to stay alive instead of hitting back, even with Lifedrain. In contrast, a ranged Guardian doesn't have the spells to buff and support melee creations, leaving him reliant on spores. Plus, if you make a field of creations, you don't have much essence to use Weapon Shaping, and you have to return to town constantly to recharge. Serviles characters in the future Geneforge 4 remake will be pretty strong, due to having Weapon Shaping and better spells, but the Guardian is in an awkward spot right now.

Where do you charge the Feisty Slap gloves and the Helix Ring? I've defeated a special character while I have the ring, and gotten a notice that it is charging, but the stats are the same as when I got it.

True, that's quite a bit of work, both remaking Geneforge 2 and fixing the issues with the older games. So far, I haven't had any real issues with Avernum 1, 3, or Avadon 1 or 2, so it seems to be unique to Avernum 2 and Avadon 3. Although, if he reused the same codes like you said then that means that problems will creep up as newer operating systems and computers come out. I'll send Spiderweb Tech Support an email and hope for the best results sometime down the road. It probably won't be soon, but hopefully Jeff will be able to fix the games after the remake of Geneforge 2 is out.