Genernumlover

It sounds like I missed an opportunity with War Tralls there. It might be worth dusting off Geneforge 5 for a try. I was wondering about the issue of range with Battle Creations. It sounds like you'd need to stick to something like Iron Clawbugs to have some ranged damage with them.

Ack, I edited that post to be more concise while you were replying. That's my bad. Really? Tralls were good in Geneforge 5? I didn't tend to use Battle Shaping in the originals because I found the others more interesting. What about in the remakes? How would you rate Battle Shaping here?

That's what I said: the higher base for Magic Creations makes them more expensive overall. I haven't tried using the Gazer AoE, so I can't speak to that. For the remakes I usually like to build smaller groups of high quality creations, or one or two, as opposed to building a full group of weaker creations. It gets exasperating seeing them shoot at bosses and miss all the time. For a Guardian, it is generally better to invest that way. Speaking of which, have you tried a Battle Shaping Guardian? It is both interesting and somewhat difficult. I mean, he can do it but his ranged abilities are quite limited. Though, it is amusing to march into battle with a squad and just fight your way out of the battle. For my servile games, I used Cryoras until the middle of the game. They were basically all I could afford. Wingbolts were one of your mains? What, if anything, did you build with them?

Every non-Sholai sect in Drypeak lives there and is fighting against the other powers that live in that area. It is essentially a local cold war turning hot. The Sholai aren't fighting like that, and they are going to leave. The Sholai are also trying to take and copy Shaper knowledge and return it to their homeland. They know that the knowledge is dangerous and controlled tightly by the Shapers, and that essence can be used to create creatures for battle. They also know that the Shapers would certainly consider it theft and destroy their expedition. The Sholai are trying to take advantage of the conflict in the Drypeak Mountains to take away what they want. If this was a discussion of nations in the real world, virtually any nation would consider it theft if an unallied foreign power was taking their knowledge and technology without their consent. That is especially true if it is knowledge and technology that has a global impact, like Shaping has in Geneforge. I'm not saying the Sholai are evil, but they are an opportunistic neutral faction that is willing to steal when it benefits them.

Thank you. Just to clarify a couple of things: Vogel is fine with this? Some companies get upset about unauthorized mods. I don't want to break his trademark or license. Can you create new zones and characters?

How do you make mods for Geneforge? I've seen a lot of quality mods, but I don't know much about how to do it myself.

How do you make mods for the new Geneforge? I've seen people making mods since the original games but I don't know how to do it myself.

I don't blame the Sholai as a whole for what Trajkov's expedition did. Especially not when some of them tried to help you stop him. It is particularly from the remake of Geneforge 2 that I got the strong impression that the Sholai are opportunistic survivalists instead of benevolent explorers. The remake of Geneforge 2 shows that the Sholai are willing to play nice while trying to steal someone else's knowledge or technology. That's a way to use another faction to get what you want, not to make a foreign power your trading partner. If that is a normal tactic for the Sholai, that means they are an opportunistic but sometimes helpful neutral party that is more concerned with their own continued existence and prosperity before anything else.

True, but most Magic Creations have a higher base cost, making the majority of them slightly more expensive to upgrade. That is somewhat compensated for by their versatility though. The support abilities they have can make them quite useful. That being said, I was surprised by how expensive a Searing Artila is. Compare them to the relatively inexpensive Iron Clawbug, an improved tier 2 creation, and the Artila has much better AoE spam but worse cost efficiency. If an acid effect AoE, and not acid AoE spam, is all you are going for, the Iron Clawbug is a better value. The cooldown on the ability is short enough so that you can just repeat the AoE every couple of turns to keep the damage effect going, and the Iron Clawbug tanks attacks from enemies hit by the spread much better than the Artila. I used Cryoras or Vlish, depending on what Shaping I was using, through most of the original Geneforge series. If I was playing a class with weaker Shaping in Geneforge 5, I usually went for Fire Shaping, due to how quickly you could get Cryoras. Vlish I used primarily as a stopgap on my way to better Magic Creations. They were still usable, but you couldn't really rely on them being your main creations for most of the game like you could in Geneforge 1, 2, and 3.

Most of the improved versions of creations are not worth the investment or they are outclassed by the base creation. That's odd. The improved Magic Creations are very expensive to upgrade. For example, a fully upgraded Searing Artila costs 48 essence. 4 essence per upgrade is a lot to spend on one creation. A lot of the staple creations from previous games, like Cryoras and Vlish, are fairly weak. That's probably to encourage more variety in creation use, but I hope they get some adjustments in the next game.

The Sholai seem to be taking a cloak and dagger approach to things while approaching with a seemingly open hand. That means that they are used to being outsiders, possibly from visiting other lands, and their mindset is likely built on a survivalist mindset from living in their frozen homeland. To Sholai culture as a whole, the survival of the Sholai people likely comes before everything else. Being a seemingly benevolent nation of merchant explorers with a nearly unassailable homeland is a good way to survive. That way, trade becomes a way to examine other nation's goods and weapons, while exchanging knowledge and spying is a way to get new magic and skills while revealing little of the Sholai themselves. You might think of the Sholai as a more secretive and weaker version of Haven. Except, instead of expanding the empire or reclaiming lost territory, it is the continued survival and growth of their homeland that is the key to the Sholai's motivations.

True, I had forgotten that two servile leaders made it off of Sucia alive. That means that the hero just left after killing Trajkov. That Shaper took out the main threat and left the Shapers to decide the fate of the serviles. So, Vogel added characters and writing that broke the lore of the game for no reason. The Geneforge sample quest from the Sholai merchant was enough to add to the groundwork for the second game. There were easier ways to get another ending. Just about anybody loyal to the Shapers could've offered the "destroy all the leaders" quest if they had landed on the island. And the fact that the Shaper trio won't help the protagonist with training and that they just bunkered down when the world was at stake was ridiculous. That would make the character a mirror image of Litalia. After all, she started out believing that she was going to be fighting for a just cause, the 20%, and turned into a merciless canister addict later on. It sounds like Litalia wanted to turn a Shaper as Ghaldring turned her to the Rebels, and she succeeded. Fingers crossed that there is a better ending added to the game for the remake. Greta always blamed the protagonist or the Shapers at large for what the Rebels did. If you take her to that spawner, she turns and the dialogue says she almost blames you for it. She essentially blames you, as a representative of the Shapers, instead of the Rebels who made it. She kept that attitude of "The Shapers are at fault for what the Rebels are doing" through the game. With her deciding that the Shapers are corrupt, which is true, and putting the responsibility for Rebel actions on the Shapers, joining the Rebels who are supposedly fighting for a new system would be a natural choice for her.

I meant more in the idea that they bring about a different ending. The Shaper trio had some big problems, but the "kill all the leaders and leave" quest was what the lore indicates the hero did.

And I'm not saying they should. I'm saying that this is the last Weapon Shaping skill and the only real crowd control skill in the list. For holding both of those positions, it isn't strong enough.

That would be nice. I hope that they function like the Shaper trio did in Geneforge Mutagen and fill in some missing information. I was always puzzled by the motivations of the protagonist of Geneforge 3. The character apparently helped the Rebels, I the reasons for doing so were shaky. The Rebels killed the Shaper's fellow students and the teachers of the school. Further, they unleashed havoc across the islands, callously manipulating the populace in several cases. Plus the Shaper saw that prolonged canister use can make an individual go insane or fall apart like Hoge. With all of that in mind, what was the reason for that Shaper to join the Rebels? Justice? He or she saw as much cruelty and injustice from the Rebels as from the Shapers. It seems like that the hero of Geneforge 3 has very little reason to leave the Shapers for the Rebels. A Sholai ending could answer the above. It could be a "keep the war going until we can get rid of Shaping" ending like the Trakovite ending of Geneforge 4. That would fit the motivations of a protagonist who saw firsthand the horrors of Shaping used in warfare. It would also explain why both Alwan and Greta are reluctant to speak of that Shaper.

That's the point: Guardian's Roar is supposed to be the Guardian's crowd control skill, and it is underwhelming. The reason Guardian players are looking for an alternative is because the ability that is supposed to fill the crowd control spot isn't cutting it. Neither of the options for Guardians are very good. You either cast Guardian's Roar and hope for the best or put some points in Mental Magic for Daze and hope that you get lucky. Like I said, the options are not that great. In a lot of fights, Guardians end up relying more on AoE creations for crowd control, and that draws enemy fire to them and gets them killed. Guardians basically end up trying to outfight the enemy in a manner that doesn't require crowd control. I find this to be the best solution so far, just having my Guardian tank fire and trying to kill the enemy before they can destroy my Guardian's team.

That'd be a good twist on things. Shaping is supposed to be extremely dangerous. For a bunch of novices who think they can steal it and control it straight away, that'd be a recipe for a Shaping disaster. The Sholai coming for help with their disaster only to see that things are even worse in the Ashen Isles would cause them to rethink their actions. That could be the founding of the Trakovites.

Yes, it does. An untargetable terrify is too random to be of much use in harder fights. It is outclassed by the alternatives because of that. I regard enemy terrify as an annoyance, but stun is generally more deadly. The chances of the enemy benefiting from terrify are higher than they appear. For some reason, random effects that have a low chance of benefitting the enemy usually do end up benefitting them quite a bit. Basically, Guardian's Roar is underwhelming as it currently is. That's also why I am suggesting changes that could make the ability more useful in the future. Vogel is going to be modifying and experimenting with different skills as the remake series progresses. Because of that, bringing to light that this ability is supposed to be powerful but is actually less useful than it seems is a useful debate to have. It lets players discuss their experiences with it and offer suggestions on how to change it for the better.

The short answer would seem to be that the Sholai are greedy. A more hopeful answer is that the Sholai are hoping to terraform their homeland to make it more inhabitable. Wasn't their homeland supposed to be a frozen realm? Regardless, the Sholai are trying too hard. There is taking advantage of a situation, and there is trying to steal powers that have catastrophic consequences when they are misused. It sounds like the Sholai expedition either fails, or that they are going to cause a horrendous accident in their homeland. That could be a new leading element of the story for the Trakovite faction. If they come back in the Geneforge 3 remake having mastered Shaping easily, that'd be poor writing on Vogel's part.

Basically you can have enemies, melee or ranged, get their attacks or splash damage lined up for them by the terrify effect ending. They can make a panicked run to positions that are more advantageous for hitting your damaged creations or for blocking your Guardian from reaching a critical target.

The Purifying Blade is extremely powerful once you've leveled it up. As it starts, Bunk's Blade or the Guardian Claymore have better perks, but slowly get outclassed in one hit damage. As you indicated, it amounts to perks versus damage. Two thoughts on Weapon Shaping: Guardian Push would function better if it were a push or pull technique that let your character move the target three spaces in any direction. It'd be a form of crowd control and a gap closer that would let the Guardian have more control over early game battles. A potential fix for Guardian's Roar could be one that weakens and strengthens it at the same time: make it an aimed cone attack that terrifies enemies in the cone and puts a long lasting secondary effect on enemies in a circle around the Guardian. The cone would somewhat mimic how sound works in real life. If I'm yelling in one direction and you can still hear me from another it wouldn't be as loud. Plus, the directed nature of the attack would give the Guardian more control over who goes running in circles. Meanwhile, the secondary effect would increase the survivability of the Guardian and his creations in the event the terrified enemy minions charge into the Guardian or his squad. For the secondary effect I'm thinking of something more basic as opposed to a Wrack or Wrackwave. A slow or curse effect alone would suffice, but the secondary effect shouldn't be Wrack using slightly different mechanics.

This isn't about reaching a perfect balance. For me, this is about each class being powerful in their own right and distinctive. One class being able to use the abilities of the other classes nearly as well, or as well, as they can and having its own unique gameplay is not fun.

I don't think there is a reset cheat like that. I made a mistake with a quest, with that wandering Shaper, and I had to reload from an earlier save.

Except that viable is the standard that most players use for investing in Shaping skills and creations. I'm not going to put a bunch of points in Stalkthorn, but focus on a Rotghroth instead. That's why the creation analysis thread you wrote is so important to players. It helps us measure the viability of Shaping skills and creation choices. The main issue is the question raised by the thread: can an Agent match or nearly match the other classes in their specializations while still being the best in her own at the same time? For a hypothetical example, if she is functioning like she has one strong and two medium skillsets due to current gameplay, even if the character screen says one skillset is supposed to be weak, that'd mean the Agent is too strong and needs some adjustment. Beta testing doesn't catch everything. I also said "If that is true." That's why I said Vogel should be alerted to the issue, so that he can look into it and determine it based on his viewpoint as someone who tinkers directly with the game. I'm not suggesting drastically altering the game right here and now with no examination. What I am suggesting is alerting someone who can look into the game's inner workings and tell us if there is a balance issue that has been overlooked.

If that is true you should email Spiderweb Software directly. That's a major game balance issue you've uncovered. Overpowering one class to be able to match either of the others in their specializations while still having her own specialization means that the Agent is currently overpowered. It sounds like Vogel overcompensated for the earlier difficulty playing Agents. He should either nerf the Agent or increase the stats of the other classes so that they are more equal. I'm in favor of buffing the other classes. Agents should be powerful, but that doesn't mean the other classes should be weaker by comparison.