Micawber

Waylander, we seem to see the Geneforge 3 situation in different ways. Loosely speaking, you see things in terms of WWII, and have identified the shapers as the nazis and the drakon rebellion as the western allies. Equally loosely, I tend to see things more in terms of the Irish troubles, with the shapers as the British government and the drakon rebellion as the armed republican movement. In your eyes the drakons are a liberating army, in my eyes they are terrorists. I have tried to take account of your viewpoint below, but please also consider how things look from the other viewpoint. The problem with the taker viewpoint is that it pre-supposes that a peaceful solution cannot be found. Quote: Originally written by Waylander: I have no doubt that there is collateral damage. [...] Numerous civilians died during the liberation of mainland Europe from the Nazis. Horrific acts were committed during the French revolution. The American revolutionary butchered many individuals with loyalist sympathies. And yet we don't really condemn such actions. While I accept your point about collateral damage (see below) I'm not too sure about your examples. That is the first time I have seen the French revolutionary terror justified! There is a difference between inadvertant harm to civilians (as in Kosovo) and deliberate targeting of them. The carpet-bombing of Dresden, nuking Hiroshima, and in general 'rounding up' and execution of dissenters - these have often been condemned. That doesn't mean the cause wasn't just, but you can't go around killing others because they don't agree with you. It is possible to take prisoners, you know. Quote: If they take the moral high road, then they will be destroyed. And let's be honest, what good is it to have 'the moral high ground'? If you act without concern for morality you become a monster. To act reasonably you need to target the aggressive elements within your enemy, not just indiscriminately kill everything that moves. How successful your targeting is of course depends on other factors, such as intelligence, precision of weaponry etc. In WWII both weaponry and intelligence were very limited, and consequently there were a lot of civilian deaths resulting from justifiable action against military targets. I accept these deaths were unavoidable. But this is in a different league from deliberately taking action which targets civilians. Quote: We will have to agree to disagree. IMHO, the Greenwood Academy was a legitimate target. I can certainly agree to disagree there.

Waylander, let's not make this an argument about words (clearly 'rampage' has a lot of connotations). Surely we can agree on this: 1. the shapers are antagonistic towards the drakons, and other free creations, 2. rather than merely hiding away, the drakons have developed war-making capacity in order to challenge the shapers, 3. there is some justice in the drakon cause, i.e. resistance to the shaper council which believes they do not have a right to exist. However, their methods involve indiscriminate killing and destruction, in my view this cannot be justified. Unfortunately, the diplomatic course proposed by the awakened was not pursued and instead the taker viewpoint (kill them before they kill us) prevailed. The drakons have gone beyond resistance and started down a very dark path. A shiver runs down my spine when I hear the argument that the school should be destroyed, because it is turning out young enemies of the creations.

They're not just reacting - they're actively seeking violence. How was the academy of Greenwood Isle a threat to them? The people of Terrestria (we are told "the whole of Terrestria is in flames") weren't violent towards drakons, they never even knew they existed. As for point 2, sending others to rampage on one's behalf does not exonerate one from a charge of murder.

I know this question was a long time ago, but it was bugging me and I finally looked it up in my notes (old fashionedly held on paper). Anyhow, you can buy the Rippel-weevil hint from Toivo (in the Hollow Hills inn) - it costs 50 coins.

Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Drakons do pose a [...] dilemma: what do you do with a group [who] are powerful, dangerous, and violent to the point that they represent a threat to society? [...] Killing all of them seems too extreme. (edited for length) A dilemma indeed. Now where have I seen this before? Guantanamo, perhaps? Edit: Waylander: what do you call GF3, if not a Drakon rampage?

I seem to remember GF1 was fairly easy as a Guardian. Quick Action and Anatomy are very good skills.

Yup, it's easy to confuse the wheel with the button. Try both possibilities.

I was going to refer you to this thread , which is almost as cryptic as Dikiyoba's response.

I did it to earn the money for the blademaster skill. In A3, the trading runs are like regular quests - if you trade enough then the quest is completed and the merchants won't buy anymore.

Quote: Originally written by Savage Ed Walcott: Maybe, maybe not. But it is still possible and relatively easy to shape a new one with a similar personality if you wanted to. Also, the fact that they were designed for a specific purpose supercedes any individual rights they may deserve were they not an artificially created life form. However, as far as serviles, they are an artificial life form designed for some specific purpose to fulfill some objective; an "intelligent" robot crafted magically into flesh and blood. Well you completely ignored my point with "maybe, maybe not", and then carried on and illogically side-stepped your own argument, which I was quoting back at you. You said a child could never be replaced with one exactly the same, because its memories and experiences would be unique. I said the same would be equally true of a self-aware machine. You then said it would be possible to shape one with a 'similar' personality. This is right after you were ranting about the unique value of "THAT child", etc, etc. Do you see the inconsistency? Quote: And if you think I'm saying this based on any religious perspective, you have NO IDEA how far off base you are. Trust me. That was me; following your statement "progress in that work without humility and the acceptance that whatever we create isn't capable of comparison with the wonders of the universe is dangerous," I said that your argument was expressed in religious terms. I stand by what I said.

Quote: written by Savage Ed Walcott: It is self-evident why human life is more important than the life of a machine, no matter how sentient. Machines can be rebuilt and replaced [...] You can't just replace a child with one with exactly the same hopes, ideas, and memories. A summoned dragon can be given whatever thoughts and ideas its creator wants it to have, creating and reabsorbing it over and over again indefinitely. If you kill a child, how will you replace THAT child? You could conceive and raise another infant, but its life experiences and memories would make it inherently distinct from the original, even if it was a spitting image. I disagree. I think by sentient machine you mean something which is self-aware, yes? Then this machine has experiences, hopes, ideas and memories of its very own. The same goes for serviles and drakons. If you kill a sentient machine/servile/drakon, how will you replace THAT machine/servile/drakon? You could conceive and raise another machine/servile/drakon, but its life experiences and memories would make it inherently distinct from the original, even if it was a spitting image. Quote: written by MagmaDragoon: I'm starting to think that the problem cannot be solved [...] Sure, we can make all serviles free, but the dumb ones will never be happy. Spot on, Magma, I completely agree. And this situation was inevitable as soon as a slave race was created. View point one (Shaper). It is morally fine for Us to 'play god' with life, i.e. create it, change it, destroy it, etc. Then there's nothing to stop Us from creating Our very own slave race to perform menial tasks on Our behalf. Since We are so wise and gracious, We will ensure that the slaves are dumb, and have no desire other than to serve Us. If they rebel or show any independent thought, then they do not serve Our design and should be destroyed immediately. View point two (Outsider). So the shapers came along and learned to create life. Good for them. Creating useful lifeforms such as ornks and clawbugs is really impressive. Some of the creations, like the Vlish, are truly a work of art. Humanity has never before ascended so high. But there must be limits. When the shapers announced they were breeding a race of humanoid servants, we all felt uneasy, but we accepted the situation, provided they treated the serviles decently, took good care of them, etc. Basically the serviles are like children -- they can't fend for themselves, so you do need take control of their likes, but you also have a responsibility never to treat them cruelly. If and when a servile develops its own intelligence it ceases to be that child, it has grown up and you've got to stop bossing it around. The policy of annihilating any servile that questions orders is totally unacceptable, it's sheer murder. Creating life does not give you the right to end it. Obviously, there are other viewpoints. Oh yeah, and this is a role-playing game. Just thought I'd mention that. Edit: OK, so while I was writing, Savage Ed wrote another reply. He says that creating the drayks etc was a mistake, which might sound a bit like what I just wrote. It isn't. His belief -- expressed in rather religious terms -- is that humans should not try to create intelligent life. Because it's presumptuous, or something like that. If you like, call this viewpoint three.

Quote: Originally written by Your ad could be here- contact me.: They quite clearly are [human]. You can argue that some serviles are less intelligent, and so don't deserve the same rights as a human, but I would like to stress the point that they can become intelligent when raised in the proper atmosphere. Much like the situation of women a few hundred years ago. You may believe this, but not everyone has to agree with you. From the viewpoint of a shaper, serviles are just creations - the same as ornks or fyoras. A servile is a utility, not an individual. You created it, you own it. At any time you may decide to reabsorb it, just the same as any other creation. It's rather pointless, granting the right to self-determination to an object that has no right to life.

I remember that thread! I was holding out for a drayk-style boat as in GF1. I voted for no big surprises, just the little things. I predict another inconclusive ending (i.e. ghaldring/shaper council both still intact).

Edit: Oops, confusion between Drath and Zkal! The portal order is North East, North East, South East, North East.

There is a separate bit of evidence you need - not the same evidence as for the Fort Haledon attack. You need to go the the NE corner of the top level of Fort Dolthar. Go through the Naga chamber and through the NE door, then use the secret passage to get past the basilisk pit. Take the evidence to Olgai, and then they tell you how to enter Pyrog's lair from the north.

I'd say the source of most negative comments is that people expected (maybe unrealistically) something a little bit more like Avernum 2 and a little bit less like Geneforge 3, in terms of engine, linearity and plot originality. That doesn't make it a bad game per se but maybe a little disappointing, for those who had such expectations. Its replay value is also reduced compared, to previous games. In difficulty terms, I would say that Avernum 4 is considerably easier to beat than Geneforge 2 or 3 and more like a regular Avernum trilogy game in that respect. I think A4 is a perfectly good introduction to spiderweb games if you are a new player, and a respectable continuation if you've only played the Avernum trilogy. Where it maybe doesn't work so well is for those who have been playing Geneforge (they've seen too much of it before) and for the Bladesoholics, who have more esoteric tastes (if the scenarios released so far are any indication).

Thanks SOT, now everytime I see an eyebeast I'm going to imagine it in black lenseless glasses, a big fake nose and a plastic moustache. I think you have finally conquered my fear of eyebeasts. Cheers.

1. Despite the misleading display on the stats screen, resistances are multiplied, not added. So for example, if you have 2 fire resistance items giving 40% and 20% resistance respectively, then first item takes 40% off the damage and then the second item takes 20% off what's left, i.e. 12% not 20%. 2. Probably. It makes the coding a lot easier not to have too many conditionals, and anyway it's quite useful to have things repeated as not everyone has a perfect memory. However your second example is not a good one, in this case the PCs are not questioning not in incomprehension but in challenge. Think of it like "Hey you fat face", "Did you call me fat?" - here the questioner is in no doubt they were described as fat but they are challenging their interlocutor to repeat the insult at their own risk. Edit: I should also point out that the dialogue options are only that, options, you are under no obligation to select them. If you choose to select them in roleplay, then you are yourself consigning your PCs to the stupid bin...

1) Yes, I too miss mass haste, badly. 2) I believe GF used a hex grid, which has led to all sorts of problems. Edit: My source for this was SOT, but Jeff has now denied it.

One of the splash-screen hints in the game tells you about this shortcut (when you use a pylon, for instance). [Edit: that is, it tells you about pressing c; not about the encumbrance bypass, which I suppose is unintentional.] It also works in Geneforge 2/3.

Who said anything about every battle? (I was thinking mainly of turret/pylon situations, where dumb creations tend to run up suicidally in full range of all present. (Edit: Dumb creations also includes general hangers-on, sappers and other so-called helpers, ...) (Admittedly, Alwan is not really dumb as he can be controlled, that was just a mean sideswipe at a character I don't like.))

Sort of like self-forcecaging - not bad. However, I don't think I would want to use it for my main character - the only one who is able to heal, haste, daze, etc. Maybe on Alwan, or another dumb creation, to stop them getting themselves killed.

What on earth do they teach in school these days?

OK, going back to Small Fry's question, which I believe was limited to the subject of how to get to see Athron, rather than a vague query about the principles of killing: No, there is nothing you should avoid killing in Athron's lair in A1. Hack your way through as many lizards as you like. What you must avoid, however, is going down the passage to the west of Athron (you approach her from the east) - if you do, Athron will get mad and attack you. Edit: clarification

You don't get a reward from Fort Emergence for the trog diplomacy mission. In order to finish this part of the story, you need to start a war between the trogs and the giants. Then you'll be eligible for a reward. So, no bug. All the same, the roaches are easier so it might be best to go and deal with them before you start to fight the giants.