alhoon

Awesome... I don't care about what they will think of me anyway. And it's not dirty work to rat out someone. I plan to eventually kill Barzahl anyway. Or, ahem, have those 4 drayks he keeps in pain to do the dirty noble work for me. Poetic justice and all. Because it just that I don't face someone that powerful. I will try have him killed by Heust Blade, my Servile follower. I will keep loading till that Barzite dies from a servile. In hindsight, that's not much better than what he did to Shanti, but ... well, I can't defend that. It's more about revenge than justice here. I would also have killed Shanti and I want the Barzite to die a humiliating death. I blame the canisters. EDIT: OK, I know that you all told me to cut down on the Edits, but this happened and made me think it's a bug: Trying to go to the Arena, I accidentally clicked on what I thought was a random guard. He wasn't. He was a Barzite Guardian that have gone full-canister mad, Trotkan. I told him I don't think he's a real guardian and he attacked me. Having a full roaster, I didn't think much of it, until I saw two Alphas from the guards approaching and I thought "Oh, oh... if all the guards turn hostile to support the Barzite I'm in trouble". Well, they weren't. They attacked the Barzite. I may have messed with the controls of the torture pylons but since I didn't get a message now that the Pylons are bad, I think it was a bug of the form of "creature turns hostile, friendly creatures attack it". In case it isn't and it has to do with the Pylons: Can I later do the Barzite ending (if I ever find the courage to join them) or I have locked that out half-way through the game?

What I meant is that I got the same Dialogue from Barzahl. I couldn't rat out the canister-addled gorilla and tell Barzahl, "I found evidence that thing lied to you, Shanti was humiliated and murdered; not died in an accident, not executed legally." All I can say is that "the story stinks! I want to challenge that huge, Shaped-to-lolness guy in a one-to-one fight without creations" which seems a not nice way to make a suicide. I am a Shaper, I can't fight alone. Or actually fight for that manner. My battle magic is still pathetically low. I cast blessings on my creations in battles and try to not block their path to the enemy.

Investigating the Crystal caverns at lvl 21. Wandered around, didn't start any trouble. Found a 600+hp cryodrayk that has a perfect crystal. A crystal I need... for an artifact I thing. I commanded successfully the Drayk to hand it over. But I feel bad for lording around the poor mad creature. I hope the artifact I'll make will make me feel better. I still need to find a drayk's tendon. If I find out that I took over the mind of a free creature and stole its toy (that kept it calm) only to get something that I will sell, I'll be quite sad. Found Agent Shanti's body. It was sensible to have her executed but there's sadistic cruelty in the way it was done. Have I found her alive, I would have killed too, that's true. But I would give her a more honorable death than shooting her in the back while she was disguised as a servile and dumping her body. They could have at least put her in a grave. To add insult to injury, I can't tell Barzahl that his gorilla executed Agent Shanti despite orders. I thought that would be the "leadership" way to kill my first Barzite.

Either through experimentation, or if you're proficient with the editor, from the editor.

Allow me to help please That is not the command that adds an Artilla. What this command does, it remove 300 coins from the PC (minimum left 0) and set a "flag" for the game, specifically the flag 41,20 to 1. The flag 41,20 in this case is used to track whether the Artilla can be added to the party. You have to talk to the artilla and get it to join. The command that adds a character to the party is: add_char_to_party(X+8); with "X" being the number of the character in that zone. For example if I want to add the 50th character in the zone (which I should know who it is) I would put add_char_to_party(58); Why 58 and not 50? Because the numbers 0-7 are for the character and the creatures in the player's group.

From my committee (7 members), 2 openly admitted they have not read the whole thing, true. But even if they were an aggressive bunch, I had a very low risk of death whether I was an incompetent and weakling or not; I would not earn my PhD, but I wouldn't be turned to fertilizer for those rapidly growing plants. In military officer academies around the world, there's indeed some (very low) risk of death but mostly during training or live ammo shooting. Those without stomach for it are weeded out through non-lethal hardship, like Greta was. Not because as a test they're put through a maze full of enemies and deadly traps. It is cruel, it is wrong and shows not only elitism, but pettiness towards those that are not up to very specific standards. I am not saying the early rebel way of sending half-trained people to the geneforge or handing out canisters like candy is the proper method, but at it has a better survival rate.

Shamelessly stolen and sent to various friends and classmates that will defend their thesis within a year. I even sent it to my own students. I'll make sure that I sit near the door during their Thesis defense.

Hmmm... your analogy is good. However to continue with it: As far docs go in universities we have T.As (my level), Lecturers, assistant professors, associate professors and full professors. Deans can (in my uni) be only associate professors or full professors and Rectors can only be full professors. Clear and defined ranks. Are all T.As equal? Nope (publications, experience, PhD supervisor). Associate professors? Again nope. But there are ranks. I understand the analogy of what you say. I understand that the term "novice" given in GF3 for pre-apprentice Shaper could be a local rank just in use in Greenwood academy and other academies may have called them with other names. I understand that the term "Prospective" is more or less "defended the PhD thesis successfully but has not be sworn in as a doc yet before the council" (we give an oath in front of the council here and we're announced in the parliament's paper; in other countries the president is the one announcing them all together). However... while it is tempting to use that simple analogy of yours, what makes us think that it is that way and the names on the loading screen are non-canonical? That the Shapers are using the doc analogy and not something similar to uni professor ranks? Mostly to put my thoughts in order, I will put in pros and cons of the "PhD analogy". Pros: - Simplicity. In the absence of further evidence the simplest answer is often the true one. - There is little distinction in dialogue between shapers aside of trash-talking apprentices and novices and respecting councilors. - Explains why some Shapers have honorifics like "Sage Quothe" or "General Corby". It's because it reflects their current job and they keep the title later. A Professor has a PhD but he's called professor after all usually not dr. - Another validation of the moral superiority of the Rebellion* Cons: - The loading screens name Journeymen and Masters. Since "Authority: journeyman" does not necessarily mean "rank" but perhaps is a classification like "junior researcher" ... Yeah, I'm going with your version Triumph. * Of course the "PhD analogy" puts some things into perspective. When I defended my PhD, the 7 professors of the committee asked some questions. My supervisor would have supported me if needed (it wasn't needed, my defense was very tame and friendly). When Shapers have to go through the equivalent test (Testing Fields) they have to fight several scorpions big like motorbikes, acid-spitting quadruples big as panthers, gorilla-like apes (thands) or deactivate bombs, cut through locks as good as the average safe and repair machinery (else they will be attacked by aforementioned monsters). All that so they can finally start learning. The Testing Halls are strewn with graves. How many PhD candidates have died in defense of their Thesis? Preposterous, bloodthirsty system that propagates an evil elitist magocracy. And before we start with "Shaping is... " analogies, please remember: We have people in the forum that are researchers of genetics. They can do some real damage too if they make an accident or worse, if they do it on purpose. Yet, the threat of bioterrorism or a modified plant acting as weed and choking out other flora has not been considered a reason for people that study genetics to risk their lives to get a PhD in genetics.

I haven't spent much time with them, but they're among the least obnoxious Shapers I've met I think. I haven't seen them doing anything non-Shapery and them suggesting to me to not trust lying Zakary the deceiver and that being unaligned is smart makes them orthodox in my book so far. They're the ones responsible for making me figure out that I could just... walk out of the valley. I "finished" (lol, good one) the game after them. OK, their agent knows too much about Shaping, but that's not unorthodox, just not common. Also, I don't think I have high standards for Shaper orthodoxy. Lord Rahul counts as one, Santi as another. Both were justifiably killed by the Rebellion in canon but as far as I know they were orthodox Shapers. I admit I haven't search Rahul's place; it's totally possible I will find a canister locked in his chamber or something sinister. But so far, he seems the traditional annoying Shaper. The Guardian that protects Taygen and disagrees with him is also traditional IMO. Oh. Haven't thought of that. So you mean the whole lot of the people in Greenwood academy could be (or perhaps not) of the same rank as the people that finished the academy and were doing their apprentiships like the GF2 protagonist? It is possible. There is one "young Shaper" in GF4, the first boss I encountered. And actually the first Shaper I ever saw. I haven't seen their sprite yet. I can tell you that a single robed figure standing alone in the way was very intimidating... Thinking of it the text says "he must be a young shaper" without giving any rank. But perhaps that was not because the Shapers lack ranks, but because the rebel I was playing didn't know of them. I am not entirely convinced though. The Shapers are too many to not have some ranks other than councilor and prospective. In any case, do you believe the system is more or less apprentice < Shaper < Councilor ?

Lord Rahul is below councilors? But... I think it was mentioned in GF3 the Ashen Isles are a province. Were they bundled in with Burnwood province perhaps? So, lying Zakary the Deceiver is also a Lord? Or just Shaper-boss over a large number of low-ranking Shapers? Prospectives are mentioned in GF3 and GF5, novices in GF3 and apprentices in GF2 and GF3 although I forget the GF3 definition of the Apprentice, novice, prospective. It was detailed in early GF3. I have to go read those parts. It would make sense from in game perspective to have no clear rank for "Full" Shapers aside of "X person has permission to Shape up to Alphas and Artilae" (Journeyman authority required). Does anyone know if the loading-screen information is canonical? Cause there it mentions "authority required" as "all", "Journeyman", "Master", "Barred". They also mention War Tralls as some -really- dangerous creations with high probability to go rogue and fertile. And yet, many Shapers have an abundance of them. More than Kyshaaks; that may explode on creation or wingbolts that the Shapers (as of GF4) have not determined their tendency to go rogue and have remnants of failed experiments. Really, when GF4 says the Shapers threw the rules out the window, it's not joking...

Please, please, use spoiler tags! I won't be able to overlook that info. Please? I don't have time to finish the game with even one faction, let alone 3, before that post is answered.

From Zakary and the Barzites. In GF3-5 the council is also notoriously slow to act. As in, there have been years of preparations and the Shapers haven't figured there was a rebellion brewing in GF3, the Rebellion was going strong for years taking up land and fortifying before the "Shaper armies came" in GF4 and they were beating back the Rebellion on all fronts and... in GF5 you have to win the war for the council yourself because they're so divided that you need to smack some sense to 3/7 remaining councilors for them to agree to attack Gazaki-Uss. I mean, the Drakons have been there for some time, and the Shapers evidently had the forces to attack Gazaki Uss even if they lost part of their forces (Rockfall). If another councilor was with Astoria (we see another Guardian aside of Alwan in the Council), or if the council grabbed Rawal by the throat and told him "You know what? Unless you write right now the command for half your Shapers and Creations to march to Gazaki-Uss, you won't live the Citadel alive" they wouldn't even need my PC. You're right about Sharon, but... Sharon wasn't sent to investigate the state of a colony. However, you're right that by the time someone asks "what happened with the investigation on colonies A, B, C, Drypeak, E and F?", gets a reply "we heard X from A-F, but Shanti never came back", then it goes all the way up, and council dispatches more people it could perhaps be 1-2 years. Man, the Shapers have grown to be completely useless in administration and government. For all their talk of Empire, government-wise all the can do is bully untrained outsiders and serviles. It was well beyond their time to be toppled. However, Sharon mentions that while it's not unheard of, it's not common for Shapers to go "overlooked". And Sharon was actively hiding; for all we know the council may have been aware she was missing but not where she has been holed up. As such, yes, there's a chance Santi and an apprentice would never be looked up in the inefficient bureaucracy of the Shapers but from what I heard from Sharon and Santi, there's a greater probability that they will be looked for. I respectfully disagree. Another thought: Sharon's disappearance (and she's not the only Shaper that went dark; Khyrik or how the Trakovite boss in GF4 was named, also deserted I think) helps explain those other minor rebellions (eliminated from history books according to later games) and how all these barred places came to be. I guess that half the times the Guardians have to deal with something serious, it's a Shaper that went rogue or deserted.

What about Shaper ranks? I think it goes Novice < Apprentice < Prospective < Journeyman (from the load images) < Full Shaper / Master < Lord / Councilor Lord Rahul seems to have been the Councilor of the Ashen Isles, so I think both titles apply. I think that Master = Full Shaper since the images give the rank Master as required for permission for some creations but the games mention "full Shapers" and not Masters. There's also the honorific Sage for Quothe or Taygen, but Taygen is a councilor and talented Shaper while Quothe is just a talented Shaper. The Prospective is a temporary rank according to what I've seen so far. I believe that Prospectives rank above apprentices, but it could be the other way around, with a novice becoming a Prospective and then going for the 4 year apprentiship. Or Journeymen could be another name for the Prospective. I believe "Novice" is the first rank but in Greenwood it was suggested that there are other steps before becoming a Novice. But Novices are, I think, the first to be considered Shapers. My knowledge of the first ranks is probably incomplete because I think the first game deals with a novice or apprentice. So... any thoughts or "You missed that from the first game" are welcome.

Well, everyone in the valley knows it. The Awakened so far just seem to ... hope. My character also knows that when an Agent and an apprentice show up and they don't return, things are going to get moving. Everyone in the Valley knew that the Shapers would come. My character and Shanti are the first wave. According to the "leave" ending, 12 Guardians are the second wave. Anyway, it's not the "minor modifications" I was dreading. It was... the mentality change. I am at 5 canisters I think. But whether that affects my ending(s) or not, it's the fact that my character is now going crazy that bothers me. I went too far. Mind you, I didn't get a mild message of being kinda less empathic; it was a full on "you don't care what they think" message. My character hasn't become Tuldaric or Phariton but now doesn't care what "the people in the background noise" think.

I don't know what the pit of the bound is, but I'm not giving the Bazrites anything; I will try to not crush them all though, so that they will delay the Shapers when they arrive. Or, at least that was what I would do if I didn't know that the Shapers outnumber everything in the valley 20-to-1. I hate I can't save people in this game. It's laid pretty thick that the Shapers will purge everything; they did it before and now there are armed and dangerous rebels on the mountains. From what I've seen so far (which is not much, the loyalists and the various basic areas of the rebels) the Takers seem to have the best chance; they're holed up well and not worrying with "rogues" have a big bunch of creations. The Barzite army has to rely on improperly controlled creations and mad Shapers that can Shape but not control. Once they feel their breeding pits they will have a big struggle in their hands to control all those things the moment they get them away from the torture-pylons. It is pretty evident by the Alphas and Glaahks made away from their cities. They will be busy even without the Shapers. For all their might, if Litalia et co didn't arrive for a year or two, the Barzites would have imploded by themselves.

Wow, being indecisive between Takers and Awakened helped me with Phariton! He seems to be working on wannabe Unbound. A noble task. He could have stopped Litalia et co if he wasn't working alone. The quest is hilarious: He asks anything from puresteel to... stealing a cauldron from a kitchen or something. As for his equipment, he's practically asking me to steal it. Perhaps I'd have considered "joining" Phariton (I see him as "Unaligned rebel boss" like the "Unaligned Shaper boss" in that fort)... if it wasn't the "Who wouldn't use canisters?! They show the truth! To use a canister is to see deep in the core of the Universe!". Suuure buddy. That is what they do. He seems worse than Jared (GF4) when it comes to canister addiction. And what a great loot he has thrown around! Artifact materials, very nice weapons, it's like Christmas. I also found a conduit shard, that some people have been asking for. I remember the Barzites made a demon that stole it but I'm not giving it to them. However, I think others are asking for it. For the life of me I can't remember who though. Back to Medab... Got a message that people look at me curiously now and I don't give a damn. I used too many canisters! Curse you Phariton with all those level-worth canisters lying around. A raise in endurance: 6skill points. A raise in intelligence: 9 skill points. I was planning to raise both. Those two canisters were -3 levels worth- of skill points. I caved in. I admit it. I wanted a piece of the "universe core" that Phariton was talking about. The part about me saving 3 levels worth of skills. And that "part of universe core" was the key that unlocked the gates of madness. I'm a Tuldaric-wannabe now. Started with good intentions, dreams to help the Serviles. And lost my sanity on the way.

ROAD TO PHARITON: After pacifying all the pylons, I've spent over 30 minutes combing the place to find the lever or something that would allow me to continue. I was about to give up... I like the graphics mod but it makes the levers hard to see. And the lever being behind a corner and a corner and not showing unless I stood 2 squares fro it didn't help. And then... I met a "bloated" Servile made more or less as a walking living tool with a strange stomach. Revulsion aside, I'm not sure these creatures are treated badly but I certainly look down on making them idiot savants on purpose. Yes, Shaping them as technicians instead of training them is faster, but it leaves them... damaged. This has a feeling of "stepford wives" but with bloated stomach serviles. I thin they may carry worms or some other kind of nastiness there. I don't like this place even though the serviles seem treated OK, unlike Monarch's serviles. But I'm not sure these serviles were given enough mental faculties to develop a personality. I think this is one of the not-that-many times in GF series that I would like the option to reShape Creations; boost the intelligence of these serviles, even if it means "pushing aside" some of the technical specifications so that a personality can develop. Turning them to people, for lack of better word. I am told that going further would cause them to attack me. I don't want to have to kill them. I just want to be able to give them personality. And if then, after developing a self-protection instict they attack me, then I will feel OK killing them. Now it just seems wrong. I'll try to find a mechanics\stealth way to that guy. Also: Do the followers talk? I think you told me they don't. I have a servile with me, a taker, Heust Blade. I wish he would give me some input, as a servile, on how to deal with these creatures. And then: Canisters... intelligence (always useful) and endurance (I was low). OK, here's 2 canisters more for me. I think I am at 4... I plan to become Tulda-forged at some point. Let's see what happens now. Phariton has used 16 that I counted. And if there's sixteen broken canisters in his bizarre room of temptation (seriously, canisters that give intel?!) we can safely assume the message here is "He's used a ton". I found an Alpha that "is not rogue" but still doesn't obey Phariton cause Phariton didn't take control of his own creation. I was able to control it cause I'm awesome and I haven't bathed in canisters. It's a lvl 20 alpha (i.e. same level as my lowest level Vlish), so exchanging a Vlish for Hryk was not viable. And a free Hryk attacked me. In any case, in GF4-5 Battle Alphas were baaarely able to talk. The Alphas here seem smarter.

Isn't there an option to release it as is? It has been some time since I ran the whole "let's do every atrocity possible!" gameplay and I have tried to forget. I am trying to forget... (Ofcourse, I'm joking. I'm not judging you friend).

I can, in PM. PS. You have to be lifecrafter or Shaper for this quest.

Yeap, that kind of thing is explicitly forbidden in GF3-5.

Oh... I certainly hope not, cause I've dragged both of you to loooong discussions about lore. I have surmised that your passion is the numbers and balance, based on the tons of work on that front you've made. Mine is... modding. While I certainly have an interest in lore for lore itself, my recent increased interest in lore comes from modding since the lore affects modding. And while I think this and that for what I could put in a mod or not, certain questions, academically interesting do pop into mind.

And I still thank you for Nora, cause I haven't missed just her, but a bunch of Guardians sitting in the mud (?) and most importantly an awesome shield that I use and tons of money. I am indeed not the person most versed in lore. There are parts in GF4 and GF5 that I have also missed. As I have said once before: I have never met an Eyebeast and I am sure there are some in GF4-5, games I've finished. Hence... these question threads! And, ahem... my enthusiasm for the lore is not as great as yours or Slarty's. You seem to know by heart most of the lore when I struggle to remember some parts. To my defense, I have stated a couple of times already that I don't make "declarations" about whether it's a mistake or not, I am just voicing an opinion and my own opinion is developing with your input. Hence, the "Wait, there are creations that can heal. If Shapers allow that, then they may allow healing loyalists especially in the less-conventional periphery." I put the questions in the forums because you are skeptical. The " it's also very plausible..." part is why this whole thread exists. If I wanted to hear an echo of my own voice, I'd talk to a corner. I hope that you all take my comments as not a challenge or stubbornness but as discussion. Other magic sects: Yeap, I've met a school in GF3. That school's terror on a mere novice pushed me from "I will have to join the Shapers this time... " to "I am not sure which side I'll take". The dude with the book is doing research on non-Shaping magic, which GF2 tells me it's allowed (despite the Shapers being pro-regulations in magic). I don't want to check the scripts though, cause I haven't done much in that zone. It's a person name Ciphar, in the "Western Mines" and has a book on spells. Author's license: Frankly, it doesn't bother me. If it works for the story, so much the better. I don't consider it a fault to say "The story in my head > details in the canon I wrote 5 years ago". I certainly don't consider it a mess up. OK, there's indeed another continent not named Terrestia mentioned in GF3 that disappears from canon. I don't care at all. I don't consider it a problem, especially since the NPCs and stories I encounter in the games are so engaging. I would prefer a bit more lore and frankly, descriptions of important people* but the story is engaging despite some elements that don't align. *Do we even know if Litalia was blond? Tall? Short? I think we get a barebones description on Greta and Miranda that leads me to assume the woman in the intro of GF4 is Miranda, but again, it has been a loooong time.

I remembered further evidence that Shapers at least, don't consider the "default" healing as Shaping: There are several creations that can heal other creations. Unless I'm mistaken, Shapers also make use of these, it's not just the rebels.

I was talking about the GF2 parts that I've seen and the GF3-5 parts that I've seen which contradict them. Also, I didn't really "Declare" anything even about games I've played. I was sure to include "in my opinion" often. I said that I don't necessarily disagree with the viewpoints you and Kian present, but I'm not 100% sure and just making discussion. So... I didn't declare anything, nor I professed knowledge.

Yeap, only the author can now for sure. All of us can just theorize. I don't necessarily disagree with either you or Slarty. I'm just saying that it seems possible it is an oversight. Sure, we can assume that the Shapers were far more lax before Drypeak in the control of magic. But is there any direct confirmation? Things indicate otherwise. The Shapers after Drypeak were caught unprepared when the Rebellion started. The Shaper school I found in GF3 living in fear of a Shaper novice doesn't mention that things changed. of course, we can assume that the school was built under the "new order" of things with Shapers becoming more secretive. There are explanations and ways to rationalize this. First and foremost: GF2 says X and GF3-5 say Y and a "significant" amount of time passed between GF2 and GF3-5. It's not irrational to say "things changed". And more. However, there are several contradictions within the games and as far as I've been in GF2, within the game itself. So it could be a retcon (the author changing his own view of the world as time passed) or an oversight (the author saying "let's give the player that reward even if that doesn't fit the lore very well"). As far as healing goes, I would agree that the general feel is that healing is "regulated" magic that Shapers find themselves better at and outsiders cannot usually recreate except through alchemy. PS the text about the spellbook is clear that the guy is doing research by himself, calling this allowed since it's not Shaping.