Is Queen's Wish dumbed down compared to Avernum?

[supercow]

I'm an avid Exile+Avernum player, and a QW Kickstarter backer.

Watching some Lets Play videos of Queen's Wish, I'm a bit disappointed in some of the mechanics (or rather, lack thereof).

 

The Avernum games (or at least, some of them) had stats (e.g. Strength, Dexterity), basic skills (e.g. Melee Weapons, Priest Spells), advanced skills (e.g. Blademaster, Lethal Blow, Riposte), and talents (e.g. Nimble Fingers, Negotiator). They also had a whole pile of spells that interacted with these other things in various ways. Finally, there were battle disciplines. There were a ton of options to choose from and some complex interactions. There was plenty of theorycrafting to be done and learning the formulas behind all of this (or just reading a FAQ if you want to).

 

The gear you got could affect any of these various systems. Then there was the fact that you could "unlock" advanced stats like Resistance later on in the game.

 

Queen's Wish seems to have just one set of skill points that contains a handful of passive and a handful of active abilities - not the layered system of Avernum.

 

I haven't played much of the Avadaon games, but is this the direction Jeff is heading with his newer projects?

[Randomizer]

Queen's Wish is just different. While it has similarities with previous games, it has lots of new and different features. There is a different emphasis on how abilities work and how you can change your gear to improve it. I enjoyed it, but then I've played through the entire game 3 times on normal difficulty, 5 times on torment, plus over a dozen partial games where I stopped after Jeff make significant tweaks that changed the game balance.

 

I wouldn't call it dumb down because you have to really think about how you play compared to previous games. There are less choices, but they make significant differences in how you can play the game. I don't think Jeff will make a game with all the options of the Avernum remakes.

 

Jeff wanted to try out some new things. For this series, this will be the new direction and will get changed for the better once he gets feedback for more players. 

 

The next game is the Geneforge 1 remake, so we get to see how he improves that system with 5 games to draw from in the series and improvements from the other series. Hopefully we also get new content to expand the story.

 

Now in a few years after the Queen's Wish trilogy and the game remakes we might see an entirely new game to start a new series.

[supercow]

Thanks for the insight.

 

I haven't seen enough of the game to know what kind of stats I can expect on gear. The bit of Avadon 1 that I played seemed like it didn't have nearly the variety that Avernum did; I liked that I sometimes had to choose between armor that gave, e.g. Dexterity or Sharpshooter. I liked having to choose between spending a point on Strength or spending a point on Endurance. I hope I get those same choices from QW.

[wasbear]

13 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Queen's Wish is just different. While it has similarities with previous games, it has lots of new and different features. There is a different emphasis on how abilities work and how you can change your gear to improve it. I enjoyed it, but then I've played through the entire game 3 times on normal difficulty, 5 times on torment, plus over a dozen partial games where I stopped after Jeff make significant tweaks that changed the game balance.

 

I wouldn't call it dumb down because you have to really think about how you play compared to previous games. There are less choices, but they make significant differences in how you can play the game. I don't think Jeff will make a game with all the options of the Avernum remakes.

 

Jeff wanted to try out some new things. For this series, this will be the new direction and will get changed for the better once he gets feedback for more players. 

 

The next game is the Geneforge 1 remake, so we get to see how he improves that system with 5 games to draw from in the series and improvements from the other series. Hopefully we also get new content to expand the story.

 

Now in a few years after the Queen's Wish trilogy and the game remakes we might see an entirely new game to start a new series.

Randomizer, is it possible to play (and beat) Queen's Wish solo on Torment?

[Randomizer]

I don't know if you can play a solo because I haven't tried. The changes from previous games makes it extremely unlikely. Even going with a two character party is going to be hard because of mental attacks and some other significant changes with energy for abilities.

[wasbear]

That's a little disappointing. I really enjoyed playing the Avernum games with a singleton.

[Reficule]

On 8/29/2019 at 1:15 PM, Randomizer said:

I don't know if you can play a solo because I haven't tried. The changes from previous games makes it extremely unlikely. Even going with a two character party is going to be hard because of mental attacks and some other significant changes with energy for abilities.

D:

This is discouraging.

[Jarinex]

Doesn’t really bother me. I’ve never enjoyed going solo 

[Edgwyn]

I miss the six person parties, so lack of a solo option does not bother me either.

[Ess-Eschas]

Hold on just a moment!

 

I don’t think there’s any reason to be gloomy, wasbear and Reficule! Far from being a problem, this sounds like a great opportunity to me!

 

At the moment, we don’t know how possible Queen’s Wish would be for a singleton. Isn’t that exciting? This is a whole new, unexplored engine, and we don’t know what’s possible! After all, I imagine that the first players of Avernum, back in the day, would have thought playing through with a single character was equally impossible – and look how common it is today!

 

There’s a chance that Queen’s Wish is impossible for a singleton. But we don’t know that. The game certainly allows you to progress with a single character. There are moments that would be decidedly tricky, but I haven’t seen any obstacles that I think would be insurmountable. Indeed, there are some quite interesting tactics that you might be able to use. For instance, abilities have no cooldowns in this engine, which allows for some interesting effects (think teleportation!). There are also a *lot* of consumable items available, which should make things a little easier. And I think mental effects are not nearly as much of a problem as Randomizer states – in my experience, a character hit by a mental status is only generally an issue for the rest of the party.

 

In summary, don’t assume playing a singleton is impossible until you try it! And if it turns out that Torment is impossible, perhaps you could make it work on Veteran? Or even Normal? If the game is possible, but extremely difficult, on Normal, then isn’t that still an interesting, challenging gameplay choice?

 

Give it a go! You might be surprised at what you find!

[Reficule]

On 9/6/2019 at 5:44 PM, Ess-Eschas said:

...

Played for a while, I think it's impossible to beat the game on Veteran as a singleton, unless there is some serious exploit player can use.

 

I can't progress if I don't recruit the first three drones, tried to head to the port directly instead to see if I can progress the quest by reclaim the port, can't win the fight, the skeleton I summoned is made of porcelain and the promised layers of enchantment aren't that useful either. I'm not deep into the game yet, I'll try hanging around the world map to see if there is any place yields free XP. If not, I'll lower the difficulty to Normal and give it try.

 

Still, after finished Avernum and Avadon 1 as a singleton on Hard, Queen's Wish gives me a strange sensation.

[Spidweb]

Try finishing the game with a singleton on Casual first. I think you will find it an exciting challenge.

 

I think it will always be impossible on Torment. Torment is pretty rough.

 

I REALLY don't think this game is dumbed down next to Avernum. Queen's Wish has a LOT of systems. Character training is much cheaper, but the fort improvement system has a lot of chewy bits to it.

[Reficule]

Casual is the recommended difficulty for solo? Itself doesn't sound very exciting...

 

I like the new engine and mechanic changes, a lot actually, I just wonder are there any boon left for a singleton, such as more XP in Avernum, or medals in Avadon(kind of). If not, despite all the good new stuffs, I have little motivation to explore them.

 

[Slawbug]

Casual is a name.  It doesn't sound like solo "casual" is actually very casual at all.

 

I suggest we baptize it "Casualcore" and enjoy.

[Randomizer]

The problem with the solo game is you have to clear Greatport before you can do anything else except a minor exploration in the southeast that could get you a healing potion from a slime guarded tower. Maybe head west to Kelleran for slightly better equipment from the merchant. 

 

All the fights for experience are four or five monsters against you even avoiding most fights.

[Reficule]

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

...

I can one-shot enemies on Casual, don't how long this will last.

 

Skeleton summon is still bad, two-shot by enemy on Veteran, and three-shot on Casual, it needs some love.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Reficule

[Randomizer]

All summon monsters improve with your level. By about level 8 they last even on torment difficulty. 

[Ess-Eschas]

Hello Reficule,

 

7 hours ago, Reficule said:

Skeleton summon is still bad, two-shot by enemy on Veteran, and three-shot on Casual, it needs some love.

 

Summons are dealt with very differently in Queen's Wish compared to other Spiderweb games. As you've seen, they are a lot more fragile, and that is a very deliberate choice on Spiderweb's part.

 

The idea behind this is as follows. A large part of Queen's Wish, particularly in the early game, is dealing with management of energy. Summons are cheap, costing only 1 unit of energy, or 2 for more advanced creations. If your skeleton absorbs three energy attacks before it is destroyed, then that's equivalent to three turns of stunning enemies. Doing that manually would cost you 3 energy, and you're getting the same effect for 1. So you're already getting a good deal!

 

Summons are good in Queen's Wish, but you have to be careful with how you use them. In my experience, it takes some getting used to – the behaviour is very different from Avernum, for instance – but once you get the hang of it, I hope you'll find that the new summons can be useful. I'd suggesting trying a more tactical approach, if you can, say by placing the skeleton behind an attacking enemy, or within a group coming at you from far away. That's just a thought!

[Reficule]

13 hours ago, Ess-Eschas said:

...

Hmm... I'd prefer it cost 3 energy and 3 times tougher than the current one, because it cost my character to "stun 1 turn" to resummons it plus energy cost.

[osnola]

I just test the beginning with a singleton as veteran, cleaning the port seems relatively feasible with the equipment found in the Haven fort chest:

Spoiler

basically, I first map the port in different steps:

- first pass, kill outdoor the tugs and the archers,

- second pass, kill the spider in the SE building,

- third pass, kill quickly the two tugs between the SW building, enter the building kill all the warriors and archers in the ground floor, note where is the stairway and open the second door.

Of course, all these monsters will respawn between these passes but the combats are relatively easy (ie. do not depend on yours spells, but mainly to positioning: avoid melee until the last moment by retracting and shooting the enemy with your arc)

 

Killing the boss is more complicated: as I only have three points of energy, I choose Haven's Might spell level 1(but you must choose  Haven's Might spell level 2); then I enter again the main building with the second door, kill the enemies which are in the stair's room without spell but good positioning: I redo this battle 4/5 times (each times I kill all ennemies) but I want to end with reasonably life loose. Then I go upstair, launch Haven's Might, try to kill the boss(and only him) with my arc while retracting the stair, then I use the dagger. The first time, I was killed while he finished with 4/5 life points ; the second time, I killed him with 4/5 remaining life points and I can click on the stair to escape.

 

This allows to gain a level. I do a final pass to empty the chests ; there is a new mage in the third building, which can be easily killed with Haven's Might (you can also skip the skeletons' combat) and I find my first potion.

 

After I decided that I was strong enough to build my second fort without finishing the Miranda's tutorial(ie. without creating any smith, any apothecary, ..) 

Spoiler

In fact, I created this game to test a strategy to clear the Vol gates: I can clear these gates by killing two times the small group of 5/6 snakes in the first floor and bringing back the other monsters to the garnison 🙂(I used Haven's Might to help the garnison, but I guess that this is possible to clear this dungeon without using any spell).

 

Note also that the gained experience is very nice, I jump to level five and that I find my second potion in one chest 🙂

 

I will now switch back to try to finish my game with a singleton in normal which advances nicely: I have rebuild all the forts, clearing most dungeons in Ukat and Vol and I am beginning to clear the dungeons in the second zone of Ahriel.

 

Concerning finishing a game with a singleton in veteran mode: I suppose that with two forts clearing most of the dungeons in Haven is feasible (this was not too difficult in normal with one fort). After I do not know if opening the Ukat gate will be possible (ie. it was very hard in normal with one fort) and after the Ahriel gate (ie. it was very hard in normal with three forts but at this point of the game, building the second fort in Vol must be possible).

Edited October 17, 2019 by osnola

[osnola]

To give you some little news, I just finished a game with a singleton in veteran mode ; it's much more difficult than playing a full party in torment, but cleaning most areas is still relatively feasible with a good strategy (sometimes unusual). There are two areas in which I have not found any good strategy:
- Tower of the Nisse: the first battle is feasible but the final battle is almost impossible, i.e. I finished it, but I reloaded several times while waiting for an improbable event to occur. 
- the Dragon's Lair: I don't see how to kill Shubael without completely cheating, so I did not try to kill Shubael.

 

Note:
- Killing the Hidden Prince (Murkhala Mines) with a singleton at level 16 was also surprisingly difficult (but still doable), I am not sure it can be done in torment mode.