Avernum 5 - Designing Party for First Playthrough

[Cynara]

Hi all! New to these boards

 

I've played a handful of Spiderweb games over the years. Finished Exile 3, the Celt side of the original Nethergate (more of a mage player than Roman soldier melee!), and most of the way through the first Geneforge (got stuck at The Great Temple as a petless Agent - yeah, kinda my own fault for going petless!). A couple years ago I played and enjoyed the demo for Avernum 5, bought the game, and then promptly lost my life to MMOs...

 

So now I'm revisiting older games I paid for but never finished, and am trying to plan my party's build as best I can without too many spoilers. Probably won't run through the game more than once, won't have time, so I want to make this runthrough count. And of course, fun!

 

Going to play through on normal, I'm an RPG vet but I figure the tougher difficulties are intended to challenge players more familiar with the game. Also going in with an all-human party, for role playing reasons - I want to leave open the choice of allying with the bad guys, see which story I find more fun (maybe save and play through both at a deciding point). And since they have issues with non-human races...

 

While trying to plan my party though, I kind of hit a wall on the numbers...

 

According to a guide I read, if you take no experience-slowing traits or races, a character in a four-party team will reach about level 40 by the end of the game. Assuming this is accurate, that would be 39*5=195 skill points, plus 80 starting points equals 275. I do plan to take some traits, so let's say my max level is 35, for a total of 250 skill points.

 

(Note that I don't plan to take Divinely Touched. It seems more appropriate for singletons, and it would seem too 'powergamey' to give it to an entire party. These guys are, after all, intended to be a handful of Empire schmoes who stumble into a greater adventure...)

 

Okay, now assume all characters build Endurance to at least 6, get Arcane Lore 4, Nature Lore 4, First Aid 4, and Luck 1 (cause they gotta have *some* luck!). That's 44 points.

 

I figured I could build up to either Riposte or to Lethal Blow on my fighters, but the numbers on either are... kinda crazy! Unlocking access to Riposte requires 206 points. With the 44 basic points spent, that's already 250! And that's without even adding points *into* Riposte! Lethal Blow is even crazier, requiring 212 points just to unlock.

 

For spellcasters, unlocking Magical Efficiency requires 130 points for priests and 136 for mages. Assuming I take the Pure Spirit/Natural Mage trait, getting spells to lvl 18 requires another 48/54 points. Plus the basic 44, that's 222 for my priest and 234 for my mage, and that doesn't include any points in Magical Efficiency or Spellcraft!

 

(My original idea was actually to have two priest/mages with both traits, but pointswise that's wownotfeasible! And yes, kinda powergamey, even if they are twin siblings of magically-apt parents...)

 

None of these builds even have room for things like Quick Action, (more) Luck, Hardiness, Quick Strike (even though it's unlocked on the way to Riposte), Gymnastics or Resistance. I have the feeling my numbers are way off. Is there something I'm not taking into account? Any advice is welcome, but please no major story spoilers!

 

Maths follow:

=============

All characters (44)

Endurance (6): 10+12=22

Arcane Lore (4): 2+4=6

First Aid (4): 2+4=6

Nature Lore (4): 2+4=6

Luck (1): 4

-------------

unlocking Riposte (206)

Strength (6): 12+14=26

Dexterity (6): 12+14=26

Melee Weapons (6): 8+10+12=32

Pole Weapons (6): 8+10+12=32

Blademaster (6): 10+12+14=36

Defense (6): 4+6+8=18

Parry (8): 6+8+10+12=36

-------------

unlocking Lethal Blow (212)

Strength (6): 12+14=26

Intelligence (4): 12

primary weapon (8): 8+10+12+14=46

secondary weapon (6): 8+10+12=32

Anatomy (8): 8+10+12+14=44

Blademaster (8): 10+12+14+16=52

-------------

unlocking Magical Efficiency (130 OR 136)

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Endurance (basic-6 +2): 14

EITHER Mage Spells (6): 10+12+14=36

OR Priest Spells (6): 8+10+12=30

Magery (8): 8+10+12+14=44

-------------

Spellcasting 18 (48 OR 54)

Pure Spirit/Natural Mage adds 6 points by lvl 35

6 points needed for Magical Efficiency (above), 6 more needed

Mage Spells: 16+18+20=54

Priest Spells: 14+16+18=48

[Randomizer]

One thing you can do is hold off on using skill points for arcane lore, nature lore, and spellcraft. There are trainers early enough in the game that these can be bought.

 

Lethal blow and riposte come so late in the game that they aren't worth unlocking. You are better off just using the skill points elsewhere.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. That way all the contradictory advice will make sense.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Cynara

Okay, now assume all characters build Endurance to at least 6, get Arcane Lore 4, Nature Lore 4, First Aid 4, and Luck 1 (cause they gotta have *some* luck!). That's 44 points.

Due to the multiplicative nature of Avernum's armour system, luck is one of those skills that you shouldn't place any points in unless you are prepared to invest in it heavily. +4% to resist all essentially translates to 0% to resist all once you are geared up in plate armour.

Quote:

I figured I could build up to either Riposte or to Lethal Blow on my fighters, but the numbers on either are... kinda crazy!

Oh god, don't bother with Lethal Blow, you'll blow all your skill points to unlock the skill, and have no points left to invest in it. Lethal blow is OK, but not worth sacrificing all of your skill points for. You can gain an appreciable number of points in Lethal Blow from training/items anyway.

Quote:

Unlocking access to Riposte requires 206 points.

I wouldn't worry about Riposte either, it's good, but not worth bending over backwards to get. Just max out parry and be happy with the 50% to block. The points spent to open riposte are better invested in hardiness/endurance/quick strike.

Quote:

For spellcasters, unlocking Magical Efficiency requires 130 points for priests and 136 for mages.

Again, don't bother. Just crank up magery/spellcraft.

Quote:

I have the feeling my numbers are way off.

They aren't. It's just a sad fact of Avernum 5 that you need to blow all of your skill points on barely relevant base skills to unlock the marginally useful upper tier skills, only to realise that you have no skill points left to invest in them. This was fixed in Avernum 6.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

One thing you can do is hold off on using skill points for arcane lore, nature lore, and spellcraft.

No! Don't hold off on arcane lore and nature lore. Money is scarce in Avernum 5, and by the end you *still* won't have enough to purchase all the training and wisdom crystals/knowledge brews you would like. Only pay for skills you plan to invest a lot of points in (eg. magery/spellcraft), or ones which are good but you won't be unlocking (lethal blow, resistance). Added to which, it's a real pain in the rear to go back opening all the caches you've missed. Bite the bullet and drop skill points in skills which only require a small boost (first aid, nature lore, arcane lore, tool use), it will help you in the long run.

By the way, some players advocate waiting to purchase weapon training for your spell-casters. Again, *don't*. It's a huge waste of gold to save a few skill points.

[Cynara]

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Lethal blow and riposte come so late in the game that they aren't worth unlocking. You are better off just using the skill points elsewhere.

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Oh god, don't bother with Lethal Blow, you'll blow all your skill points to unlock the skill, and have no points left to invest in it.

 

I wouldn't worry about Riposte either, it's good, but not worth bending over backwards to get.

 

It's just a sad fact of Avernum 5 that you need to blow all of your skill points on barely relevant base skills to unlock the marginally useful upper tier skills, only to realise that you have no skill points left to invest in them. This was fixed in Avernum 6.

 

Hm, okay, kinda figured they were there to be unlocked (sort of a skill tree hidden within the point system), but guess I should look beyond (and look forward to Avernum 6!).

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Due to the multiplicative nature of Avernum's armour system, luck is one of those skills that you shouldn't place any points in unless you are prepared to invest in it heavily.

 

M'kay, no luck then. Might make more sense for the shmoes actually!

 

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

One thing you can do is hold off on using skill points for arcane lore, nature lore, and spellcraft.

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

No! Don't hold off on arcane lore and nature lore.

 

I'll hold off on Spellcraft, but the others are so cheap I don't mind getting them, and I'd hate coming across something I can't access without them. I might not remember to go back!

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

By the way, some players advocate waiting to purchase weapon training for your spell-casters.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would I want to buy weapon skills for my spellcasters? Apart from a few in bows/thrown perhaps.

 

And a few other questions...

 

Blademaster requires putting points in two different melee weapons skills, which seems a bit wasteful if a fighter just sticks to one. Is it really worth the investment, or is Elite Warrior enough? Anatomy sounds more useful for a melee weapon specialist, even with the two mostly unuseful increases to Intelligence (but not all fighters need to be big dumb stupidheads, right?).

 

A little confused about the effects of Quick Action vs. Quick Strike, Bows/Thrown vs. Sharpshooter, and Magery vs. Spellcraft. Are these effectively equivalent skills, and is QA/QS worth investing in?

 

Part of me still wants to have two mage/priests, maybe I can fudge something up by dropping Magical Efficiency...

 

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. That way all the contradictory advice will make sense.

 

What is this 'sanity' thing of which you speak?

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Cynara

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would I want to buy weapon skills for my spellcasters? Apart from a few in bows/thrown perhaps.

To access battle disciplines. The battle disciplines which stun/curse/weaken/boost damage all apply to spells.

Quote:

Blademaster requires putting points in two different melee weapons skills, which seems a bit wasteful if a fighter just sticks to one. Is it really worth the investment, or is Elite Warrior enough?

If you choose Divine Warrior and Elite Warrior, you don't really need to unlock Blademaster. If you only choose Elite Warrior, then yes, unlock Blademaster. Having a high Blademaster is one of the few benefits of a warrior, as it allows you to utilise battle disciplines more often.

Quote:

Anatomy sounds more useful for a melee weapon specialist, even with the two mostly unuseful increases to Intelligence (but not all fighters need to be big dumb stupidheads, right?).

Anatomy is quite expensive, and does not to seem to add a full level of damage when you invest a point in it.

Quote:

A little confused about the effects of Quick Action vs. Quick Strike,

Quick Action increases your chance of getting a second strike in the same attack. Quick Strike gives you the chance of receiving up to two extra action points a round.

Quote:

Bows/Thrown vs. Sharpshooter,

Equivalent.

Quote:

and Magery vs. Spellcraft.

Equivalent.

Quote:

and is QA/QS worth investing in?

Both are worth investing in for warriors, but don't expect miracles from QA. At 10 points, you will be getting a double attack 25% of the time. To reliably get 2 AP from QS, you will need to invest at least 10 points, and then get a remaining 8-10 from equipment/training.

Quote:

Part of me still wants to have two mage/priests, maybe I can fudge something up by dropping Magical Efficiency...

The only problem with mage/priests is that their skill points will be stretched very thin. In most Spiderweb games, you succeed through specialisation, not via scattering your skill points around.

[Erebus the Black]

Here are my few cents worth:

If you know programming use the stacking mod (where you make all non-equipable unstackables into stackables) it will make for a much nicer game experience and will net you more money in the long run if you remember to sell things by fours (if their value is indivisible by four).

 

Forget about LethalBlow and Anatomy their effect is a lot weaker than is described, they basically give you (not precisely) a double damage critical hit, not an out right kill.

 

There really isn't a problem with having non-humans in a loyalist party, they have reformed.

 

I agree with you on the luck, I don't remember if it's still the same, but it used to give you a chance of evading death if you were hit by a lethal blow.

 

I also see you didn't take any tool use, so FYI the spell unlock doesn't affect locks anymore it only affects magical seals, and bashing doors is also not an option anymore.

 

If you want a cross mage you can try giving the priest perk to a mage and vice versa, however a mage is better off with natural mage due to armour purposes.

 

Bows and thrown also add to battle discipline however they are 1/2 ratio versus spears and melee. And parry can deflect missiles and magic to a lesser degree.

[Cynara]

Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

The battle disciplines which stun/curse/weaken/boost damage all apply to spells.

 

This... sounds like a bug. If it's not though, I'll consider adding some weapon skills in later levels.

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

If you only choose Elite Warrior, then yes, unlock Blademaster. Having a high Blademaster is one of the few benefits of a warrior, as it allows you to utilise battle disciplines more often.

 

Okay, I'll do this. I actually like the idea of a warrior who can switch weapons at need - pole for more damage, sword/shield for straight-out tankage.

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Anatomy is quite expensive, and does not to seem to add a full level of damage when you invest a point in it.

 

*sigh* Okay, dumb warrior it is then (and another reason to look forward to Avernum 6!).

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Both are worth investing in for warriors, but don't expect miracles from QA. At 10 points, you will be getting a double attack 25% of the time. To reliably get 2 AP from QS, you will need to invest at least 10 points, and then get a remaining 8-10 from equipment/training.

 

I'll consider investing in these skills later on then, maybe see what has the best synergy with the equipment I find.

 

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

The only problem with mage/priests is that their skill points will be stretched very thin.

 

Played around with this and you're right:

 

Basic package of Endurance (6), Arcane Lore (4), First Aid (4), and Nature Lore (4): 40

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Mage Spells (12): 10+12+14+16+18+20=90

Priest Spells (12): 8+10+12+14+16+18=78

 

Total: 250, and that's without any points in Spellcraft, Magery, weapons or defensive skills. Don't think this'll work. Oh well, it fits the concept better to specialize. A shmoe is unlikely to be both a Natural Mage *and* be Pure of Spirit!

 

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

If you know programming

 

Oops, I don't, but thanks for the advice!

 

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

Forget about LethalBlow and Anatomy their effect is a lot weaker than is described, they basically give you (not precisely) a double damage critical hit, not an out right kill.

 

That seems to be the consensus, yeah. Might consider training them, but won't try to unlock them.

 

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

There really isn't a problem with having non-humans in a loyalist party, they have reformed.

 

Think I'll wait until Avernum 6 to bring in non-humans, where you're back to playing Exile - oops, Avernum! - natives.

 

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

I also see you didn't take any tool use

 

That's going to go on my archer, whose stats I didn't post since it's a less problematic build.

 

==========

 

Okay, so here's how my party currently stands, getting close I think. Particularly curious about Hardiness and Defense, should these be part of each character's basic package?

 

(beware, maths follow!)

----------

Fighter (210 points spent)

1st Trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty)

2nd Trait: ??? (thinking Fast on Feet, to get into the fray faster. Maybe Good Constitution, or none)

 

basic package: 40

Strength (8): 12+14+16=42

Dexterity (6): 12+14=26

Endurance (basic 6 +2): 14

Melee Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30

Pole Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30

Defense (8): 4+6+8+10=28

 

Hardiness (?)

Quick Action (?)

Blademaster (?) [definitely some here]

Parry (?) [definitely some here]

Quick Strike (?)

----------

Archer (212 points spent)

1st Trait: Deadeye (10% penalty)

2nd Trait: Nimble Fingers (8% penalty)

 

basic package: 40

Strength (6): 12+14+16=42

Dexterity (8): 12+14+16+18=60

Bows (8): 4+6+8+10=28

Tool Use (12): 2+4+6+8+10+12=42

 

Hardiness (?)

Defense (?)

Sharpshooter (?) [definitely some here]

Gymnastics (?) [probably some here]

----------

Priest (160 points spent)

1st Trait: Pure Spirit (15% penalty)

2nd Trait: Strong Will (10% penalty)

 

basic package: 40

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Priest Spells (12): 8+10+12+14+16+18=78

 

Strength (?) [for armor]

Hardiness (?)

Defense (?)

Spellcraft (?) [definitely some here]

Magery (?) [definitely some here]

Weapons Skills?

----------

Mage (172 points spent)

1st Trait: Natural Mage (15% penalty)

2nd Trait: ???

 

basic package: 40

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Mage Spells (12): 10+12+14+16+18+20=90

 

Hardiness (?)

Defense (?)

Spellcraft (?) [definitely some here]

Magery (?) [definitely some here]

Weapons Skills?

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Cynara

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

The only problem with mage/priests is that their skill points will be stretched very thin.

Played around with this and you're right:

Basic package of Endurance (6), Arcane Lore (4), First Aid (4), and Nature Lore (4): 40
Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42
Mage Spells (12): 10+12+14+16+18+20=90
Priest Spells (12): 8+10+12+14+16+18=78

Total: 250, and that's without any points in Spellcraft, Magery, weapons or defensive skills. Don't think this'll work. Oh well, it fits the concept better to specialize. A shmoe is unlikely to be both a Natural Mage *and* be Pure of Spirit!

You don't need all the levels in both spell groups. Having one specialized as a mage and the other as priest with them each getting a few levels in the other's specialty works well. Both can heal and do basic attack spells with redundancy in some useful ones. Real helpful when one is dazed or charmed.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would I want to buy weapon skills for my spellcasters? Apart from a few in bows/thrown perhaps.

I have found that at some point in the game you will have acquired more magic weapons than your warrior can wield. Rather than selling the really useful ones, give them to your spell casters. Train in melee to level 3 or 4, along with a few levels of strength and dexterity. The magical ability of the weapon compensates for the otherwise weak fighting skills. Having a mage/priest use melee when feasible conserves spell points for those times you really need them.

As for having combined mage/priests (also known as hedge wizards) I like having two of them on my team; one with true spirit specializes in the priest spells, but knows many of the mage ones, while the other is a natural mage, who knows many of the priest spells. Training in both disciplines will add to your spell point total as well as any of the other special skills such as magery and spellcraft. And there is no need to concentrate arcane lore or nature lore in any one person. Spread it around; what matters is the total level of lore knowledge in your party. Tool use must be concentrated in one PC; keep all items that add to the skill and equip them only when needed.

I am also fond of adding a few levels of priest skill to my fighters. At lower skill levels I find smite more useful than archery and repel spirit is very effective. At higher skill levels, fighting skills cost increasingly more skill points to invest in, but priest skills are cheap. I let my fighters bless, heal and cure themselves if needed, thus freeing up my two priest/mages to concentrate their attacks on the the enemy magic users. I usually end up training my front rank to use divine fire. This is a bit of overkill, but 4x divine fire can really light up the landscape.

[Slawbug]

I disagree. SW games from about 2004 on have all been games where concentrating stats works better. A few points in melee plus a magical weapon will give you... a weak attack, that does less than cheap single target spells like Smite.

 

Give your casters weapons with defensive bonuses. And maybe buy a few points in melee IF it helps with battle disciplines in a critical way. Otherwise? It's a waste.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Cynara

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

If you only choose Elite Warrior, then yes, unlock Blademaster. Having a high Blademaster is one of the few benefits of a warrior, as it allows you to utilise battle disciplines more often.

Okay, I'll do this. I actually like the idea of a warrior who can switch weapons at need - pole for more damage, sword/shield for straight-out tankage.

Note that despite the name, Blademaster applies equally to swords and polearms. You don't actually want to waste points by splitting them between the two weapon types.

—Alorael, who also recommends not making a Tool Use/Archery character. See, it makes sense, except archery isn't strong enough to make a useful character. Buy points for everyone so they can use bows in a pinch if you want, but you want to focus on melee or spells for real damage.

[Cynara]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

You don't need all the levels in both spell groups.

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

Training in both disciplines will add to your spell point total as well as any of the other special skills such as magery and spellcraft.

I'll definitely consider this later in my party's career. I tend to like characters who can do more than one thing.

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

Having a mage/priest use melee when feasible conserves spell points for those times you really need them.

I'm considering a few points in Bows/Thrown for spellpoint conservation, depending on how much a factor it is. Melee... not so much. Maybe for a few Battle Disciplines later on.

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

I am also fond of adding a few levels of priest skill to my fighters.

Not sure about this, without precious points in Intelligence, Spellcraft and Magery the spells will be awful weak. Maybe I'll train them a bit later if I'm flush with cash...

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Give your casters weapons with defensive bonuses. And maybe buy a few points in melee IF it helps with battle disciplines in a critical way.

Pretty much this. Where I spend/buy some points will be based on the kind of equipment I come across.

Originally Posted By: Ellhralorael

Blademaster applies equally to swords and polearms. You don't actually want to waste points by splitting them between the two weapon types.

Errr, a guide I read says Blademaster requires 6 ranks each of Strength, Melee and Pole. Is this not correct?

Originally Posted By: Ellhralorael

archery isn't strong enough to make a useful character. Buy points for everyone so they can use bows in a pinch if you want, but you want to focus on melee or spells for real damage.

Aw nuts, really? That kinda messes me up. Not sure how to fit in Tool Use with a melee or a spellcaster, they're so points-hungry! An archer seemed the perfect fit with their less expensive skills.

*sigh* Back to some number crunching. Stupid locks. Stupid traps. *grumble grumble mutter*

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Cynara

Not sure how to fit in Tool Use with a melee or a spellcaster, they're so points-hungry! An archer seemed the perfect fit with their less expensive skills.

I'll have to be honest here, and say I've never played a devoted archer. However, I can see *theoretical* advantages to having one. The fact that Heartstriker has the same multiplier as a halberd, and that Quick Action isn't what it once was, implies that an archer may be more useful than a sword wielder (although that's not saying much!). Bows vs. halberds is far more contentious.

Anyway, I usually just attribute tool use to one random character. However, looking at your math has made me realize something glaringly obvious. Making a good priest is pretty cheap skill point wise. I'd argue that you don't even need to reach 17 in Priest skill, since the last two spells are cack. So maybe it is most appropriate to have them train in Tool Use.

[Erebus the Black]

No,

as you can see here:

http://www.spiderwebforums.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181375#Post181375

a dedicated archer just isn't worth it. In the old trilogy (IIRC) you could shoot bows twice each combat round without haste so it would have been more worthwhile, but for a single shot for half damage when most enemies can cross the distance in about one turn it just isn't worth it. You are probably better off with any other dedicated character.

[Alorael at Large]

Since Blademaster is exactly equivalent to a point of Strength or Melee/Polearm for damage purposes, the only time you want to unlock the skill is when it's cheaper to waste the skill points to get up to six in the skill you're not using and then buy Blademaster instead of one of the other skills.

 

You're 30 skill points down to unlock Blademaster. Each point of Blademaster will have to be cheaper than Melee/Pole or Strength, and you have to add enough points to make up that difference. In the interim, you have quite a few levels where you don't improve because your points are going into unlocking, not improving.

 

On the other hand, you might want those dead-weight points for battle disciplines.

 

—Alorael, who can imagine it going either way. He'll leave this to the serious number-crunchers or a time when he has access to his game and his saves and can analyze himself.

[Slawbug]

You're forgetting something REALLY important, Alorael: you get a chance of an additional point of Fatigue Reduction every round, 5% per point of Blademaster. That makes Blademaster WAY BETTER than it was in previous games.

[Alorael at Large]

So I am. All right, those 30 skill points go into getting battle disciplines that you use frequently with Blademaster.

 

—Alorael, who looked up the Slartanalysis again. It's definitely not 5% per point. Summed, you should get exactly two fatigue reduction per round with 20 points, which is less than observed. Binomially, you'd get only a 26% chance of 2 fatigue with 20 points of Blademaster, which is much less than actually happens. Has the actual formula been worked out?

[Slawbug]

IIRC, and looking back at the Slartanalysis I think IRC, it's very close to 5% per point, and I think that 21 gave 100% chance of the +1 reduction. Having seen the number of spots in the BoE code where Jeff rolled a random integer between 0 and 100 for what was supposed to be a percent chance, it seems pretty plausible that the actual chance per point is 1/21.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

a weak attack, that does less than cheap single target spells like Smite.

Like I said, use weak attacks only when feasible, say when some underling out flanks your fighters. Again, this tactic is only meant to conserve spell points, and energy potions, on long missions. I don't use archery much because it takes so many skill points to make it effective, vs using melee weapons (at least in my experience). And I don't seriously consider this training until I have maxed out my mage/priests in their primary skill, and have gotten to the point that it takes two or three levels to acquire enough skill points to add more Int, Spellcraft, etc. It takes that long to acquire the really good weapons for your fighters so you have a good hand-me-down to pass on. Keep on the lookout for light armor with good defensive capability. You'll need those regardless of how you play.

As for priest skills with my fighters, I start with the level I need for smite, then concentrate my early skill points in their combat skills. Smite and repel spirit are useful until you get really strong and you get access to weapons that aren't more of a liability than knives or cheap shortswords. Don't increase priest skill or Int until it starts getting expensive skill point wise for all the other combat skills. I use magic a lot, and having a few spell points available for blessing and healing from my fighters comes in handy.

Since my lead fighter starts out with Natural Warrior, he gets 2 Parry and 2 Blademaster to start out with. Adding strength and melee makes this level strong enough to be effective enough. The skill points you would spend on poles can be used more effectively on other skills.

Tool use goes to my second fighter (poles). Start out with nimble fingers for a couple of points to start with, and keep any items that augment it for when you need up to 3 more levels. I am not fond of pole weapons, but some of the best weapons in the game are poles. Meh, make me an offer I can't refuse.

Brocktree is correct that in order to achieve the highest access to special skills you have to specialize. However, I think I can plow through a tough encounter more quickly with a party that has a fair amount of cross-training. I specialize to a degree, but not to exclusion.

[Micawber]

Reading this thread reminds me that the way special skills work in the second trilogy just sucks. I wish it would go back to the way it worked in the first trilogy, once you learned a point from somewhere, you were mostly able to train after that (albeit a couple, like resistance, were just untrainable).

 

[/rant]

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

And I don't seriously consider this training until I have maxed out my mage/priests in their primary skill, and have gotten to the point that it takes two or three levels to acquire enough skill points to add more Int, Spellcraft, etc.

I find it interesting that the relatively simple skill system in Avernum 5 (and later Spiderweb software games) presents a conundrum of sorts. In order to succeed, you need to invest in certain skills, instead of scattering skill points. For example, dropping a few points into parry will simply create a character who is unreliable at parrying. In order to create a decent meatshield, you really need to push parry to 50% (at least). In order to get an extra AP with quick strike, you need to bump it up to at least 18.

However, as you increase a skill, you get diminishing returns for every point invested! So it's quite easy to see why on the surface, there is a compulsion to spread points around on different skills.

This makes bought training and stat boosts from items much more valuable.

Quote:

Brocktree is correct that in order to achieve the highest access to special skills you have to specialize. However, I think I can plow through a tough encounter more quickly with a party that has a fair amount of cross-training. I specialize to a degree, but not to exclusion.

The whole point of a party is that each member complements each others weaknesses.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

Quote:

Brocktree is correct that in order to achieve the highest access to special skills you have to specialize. However, I think I can plow through a tough encounter more quickly with a party that has a fair amount of cross-training. I specialize to a degree, but not to exclusion.

The whole point of a party is that each member complements each others weaknesses.

It's not just that they complement each others weaknesses, but that there is more than one character in the party that can unleash the damage type that a monster is least resistant to in order to quickly end the fight. Jeff in his last few games emphasized boss fights where one damage type would be better than all the others. Some fights were primarily physical damage and others were a certain spell damage either fire, cold, or magical (energy).

[Harehunter]

Quote:

Jeff in his last few games emphasized boss fights where one damage type would be better than all the others. Some fights were primarily physical damage and others were a certain spell damage either fire, cold, or magical (energy).

And that is why I cross train my party. Having all four PC's being able to contribute at least to some degree shortens the battles against these single-vulnerability monsters. For example: Sure the Smite attacks of my fighters may be weak, but if that is the only way to affect damage against a particular monster then it is way better than just standing around flailing uselessly at its complete resistance to physical damage.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

And that is why I cross train my party. Having all four PC's being able to contribute at least to some degree shortens the battles against these single-vulnerability monsters. For example: Sure the Smite attacks of my fighters may be weak, but if that is the only way to affect damage against a particular monster then it is way better than just standing around flailing uselessly at its complete resistance to physical damage.

If you need to rely on a fighter's exceptionally weak Smite spell, then you need to:

1. Train better fighters

and/or

2. Train better spell casters

Giving a fighter points in Priest Spells to access Smite is a very poor remedy to mitigate their inability to deal cold damage. Even if the enemy does have high physical resistance (which is a rare occurrence), you are still far more likely to deal greater damage with a pole weapon (in which you have invested a significant number of skill points), than a weak Smite spell.

Ergo. You are diluting your fighter's strengths in a failed attempt to compensate for their weaknesses. A fighter shouldn't *need* to deal cold damage, because you have a priest/mage to do that. Just like your mage shouldn't *need* to raise the dead, because you have a priest to do that.

You mentioned that you train your mages to wield weapons. I'd respond by telling you to train better fighters.

Cross-training is completely unnecessary in a party of four, and serves only to weaken individual PC's, and the party as a whole.

[Slawbug]

I agree with Brocktree. Situations where one damage type is SIGNIFICANTLY better than all the others are very rare: usually there are 2 or 3 effective types. Even if your primary attack type has 30-40% resistance, you'll still do way more damage with that than with a couple of points into an elemental attack that meets 0% resistance, but is not well trained.

 

I also wonder if this is a difficulty level thing. Harehunter, what difficulty do you usually play on?

[Erebus the Black]

See runed bones (IIRNC) in west Bel-Shamaroth's pit, no matter how strong your fighter is there's no way you will inflict more than 5 damage on it.

[Cynara]

Grr, real life got in the way of my maths time!

 

Okay, so I've come up with a new Archer-less party that I think'd be fun to play:

Warrior, a pure fighter

Paladin, a fighter with access to some priest spells

Shaman, a priest with access to some mage spells

Spellthief, a mage who also trains in Tool Use

 

Stats follow with basic points spent plus some wiggle room depending on the equipment I find. Couple quick notes:

 

As before I'm assuming 250 points earned through leveling.

 

Harehunter mentioned that you can find equipment that will boost Tool Use by up to 3 ranks, so I've bumped down required point buy from 12 to 9 ranks. If I somehow miss this equipment during play though, I'll have to buy the points back.

 

There will probably be equipment around that boosts mage and priest spells, in which case I'll thankfully need to buy fewer ranks to reach 17, but the posted math assumes otherwise for now.

 

Oh yes, small mistake with the previous math: rank of 17 is needed to access the highest spells, not 18. Adjusted stats accordingly.

 

Character I'm most concerned about is the Paladin. Wanted him to feel different than the Warrior, so since he needs Intelligence anyway for spells he unlocked Anatomy rather than Blademaster (it boosts First Aid too, appropriate for a Paladin!). But he may be too generalized to be effective as built. Thoughts?

 

Looked into building a Fighter(/Mage) 'Spellblade', love that concept, but the armor penalty for mage spells kinda nixes it!

 

Hoping to finally get this started during the long holiday weekend. Going to celebrate our nation's birth by killing virtual creatures and taking their stuff!

 

Maths ahead:

==========

basic package (54)

Endurance (8): 10+12+14=36

Arcane Lore (4): 2+4=6

First Aid (4): 2+4=6

Nature Lore (4): 2+4=6

==========

Warrior, Pure Fighter (200 points spent)

greater trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty)

lesser trait: ???

 

basic package: 54

Strength (8): 12+14+16=42

Dexterity (6): 12+14=26

Melee Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30

Pole Weapons (6): 8+10+12=30

Defense (6): 4+6+8=18

 

Hardiness: (?)

Blademaster: (?)

Parry: (?)

weapon skills for battle disciplines

 

maybe Quick Action (?)

maybe Quick Strike (?)

==========

Paladin, Fighter(/Priest) (196 points spent)

greater trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty)

lesser trait: ???

 

basic package: 54

Strength (8): 12+14+16=42

Dexterity (6): 12+14=26

Intelligence (4): 12

Melee OR Pole Weapons (8): 8+10+12+14=44

Defense (6): 4+6+8=18

 

Priest Spells: (?)

Spellcraft: (?)

Hardiness: (?)

Anatomy: (?)

Parry: (?)

 

maybe more Intelligence? (probably)

maybe Quick Action?

maybe Quick Strike?

weapon skills for battle disciplines?

==========

Shaman, Priest(/Mage) (165 points spent)

greater trait: Pure Spirit (15% penalty)

lesser trait: ???

 

basic package: 54

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Priest Spells (11): 8+10+12+14+16+9=69

 

Mage Spells: (?)

Spellcraft: (?)

Magery: (?)

 

Strength

Hardiness?

Defense?

weapon skills for battle disciplines?

==========

Spellthief, Mage(/Rogue) (201 points spent)

greater trait: Natural Mage (15% penalty)

lesser trait: Nimble Fingers (8%)

 

basic package: 54

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Mage Spells (11): 10+12+14+16+18+10=80

Tool Use (9): 2+4+6+8+5=25

 

Spellcraft: (?)

Magery: (?)

 

Hardiness?

Defense?

weapon skills for battle disciplines?

maybe unlock Magical Efficiency?

[Harehunter]

Sounds like you have got a working plan. Not quite my style, but it could be very effective. You'll need to carry potions to compensate for having only one healer in your group. I don't usually add First Aid to my party, but in Av5 and 6 it seems to work better than in previous games. Only a few points need to be added.

 

Good luck and happy hunting!

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Cynara

Grr, real life got in the way of my maths time!

Okay, so I've come up with a new Archer-less party that I think'd be fun to play:

Since you're playing on Normal, I wouldn't be *too* worried about optimising your party. It's only important to optimise on Torment, where enemies have 6000 HP and hit for 200 damage a round with AoE attacks. Just have fun. However, I will make some comments for purely academic reasons.

Quote:

But he may be too generalized to be effective as built. Thoughts?

Again, I'd like to reinforce the fact that diversifying weakens your party, and your character. You need to invest a significant number of points to get Smite, and even then, due to its miniscule base damage, it will do *less damage than firebolt*

Yes, a warrior which can cast priest spells does sound wonderful in theory. In practice, what you get is the ability to cast a Smite spell that causes 30 damage.

Quote:

Shaman, a priest with access to some mage spells

If you want to diversify, the most sensible thing is a priest/mage, since at least they share some stats (magery and priest). However, investing a few points in mage spells gets you next to nowhere. At best, you open up firebolt (which is outclassed by Divine Fire), and icy rain (which is outclassed by Smite). Haste is cast before battles, and Slow is purely a situational spell.

At the end of the day, you want a Priest to Raise Dead, Heal, spam Divine Fire (or Divine Ret. if you're feeling particularly brave), and Charm Foe (situational). You want a Mage to spam Arcane Blow (equivalent to a nuke) and terrify/slow (situational).

Quote:

There will probably be equipment around that boosts mage and priest spells

Yes, you can probably scrape up a point or two. You can probably sacrifice the last priest spell as well. The Divine Host summon is lousy.

Otherwise, your builds seem fine. I wouldn't invest in hardiness, though. Once your warrior is fully suited up, a hardiness score of 10 might decrease damage by 3%

Quote:

Looked into building a Fighter(/Mage) 'Spellblade', love that concept, but the armor penalty for mage spells kinda nixes it!

Being able to cast a 20 damage firebolt isn't that great, especially when you have a flaming sword.

Quote:

maybe unlock Magical Efficiency?

Nahh, it doesn't work for the spells you would like it to (ergo. ARCANE BLOW)

[Harehunter]

There are a few reasons I """dilute""" my fighters with priest spells.

 

1) At some point in time they need ranged weapons. When you are stuck on an elevator getting bombed by giants, all the strength and melee and blademaster do you no good. Either train in bows, or train in priest. With the investment required to have any effect, bows is just as expensive as 5 priest, 5int which is not as strong as your priest will give, but it's better than sitting on your arse waiting to get a chance to use that fancy blademaster. Why priest as opposed to bows? Which course gives you the greater range of abilities? Ranged physical damage, or ranged cold damage + heal + bless + disruption damage: your choice.

 

2) Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems that Jeff's AI machine targets my priest above even my mage. Having only one PC able to heal has always been a liability in every game I have played. With multiple PC's able to cast heal I avoid that problem. It's either that or lug around a bunch of potions, which I prefer to use as cash. It also serves to distract your opponent to shift its attack from your low armored, low HP priest to your highly armored High HP fighter that is casting (granted a low powered) smite spell. "Hey, leave that guy alone! I'm the one you want!"

 

3) When assaulting a fort that has a gauntlet to run before you get to the entrance, I prefer to snipe at the archers one by one as I pass. I'm going to have to face them sooner or later, it may as well be sooner while I only have to face them one by one, instead of as a group with other fighters backing them up.

 

4) I like to approach each battle with a simple analysis: what is their greatest strength and how do I defend against it, and what is their greatest weakness and how do I exploit it. In many of Jeff's situations you will find that a monster has only one particular weakness, say a lich or vampire, which is, in a highly specialized party as you suggest, vulnerable to only one PC's ability. The other members of your party are not equipped to contribute significantly in the offense. In Av5 there is one pylon that presents four distinctly vulnerable entities. With a specialized party this challenge kicks my butt, but with a party with specialized skills along with some cross-training I survive pretty handily.

 

I train my team more like a special forces team. Every member has a specialty, but there is at least one other member who can fill in should the one member be wounded or killed. Everyone knows first aid, Everyone knows hand to hand. There will be more than one weapons expert, and more than one demolitions expert. Find your enemies weakness and exploit it. A mine field will not stop your enemy, but it will slow them down enough so you can kill them. A weak attack will do more damage than no attack, and it will make a difference in the end.

 

Essayon.

[Alorael at Large]

1. With nephilim, the investment required to make decent use of bows is zero. Even without, you can buy a few points and you'll be fine.

 

2. I've never noticed this.

 

3. I don't understand the relevance.

 

4. Except in almost all cases physical is one of the enemy's weaknesses. Not a huge weakness, perhaps, but even with moderate resistance to physical the enemies will still take more damage from a dedicated physical fighter than from a token investment in magic. There are a tiny handful of exceptions, but you're handicapping yourself through the rest of the game to get through those few fights with ease. If you're really that worried about them, stock up on wands.

 

—Alorael, who would rather build a party not to rely on weak attacks. For real soldiers, being able to survive the loss of a party member is important. In Avernum, you should almost never be down a character. And by the time the difficulty starts ratcheting up, you should be able to fix those lost characters yourself.

[Earth]

2. AI tends to target casters not just priest.

 

4. against lichs etc use wands (repel spirit, death, jewel, etc) you have found/got during your travels.

[Randomizer]

AI used to target the last character that did damage and since spellcasters have low dexterity, they get the last shot in to do damage.

 

Delicious Vlish did a two character party that approached a swarm from opposite directions and then alternated attack rounds so the swarm would go back and forth chasing the last attacker but never reaching him.

[Harehunter]

I'm not truly racist, but I tend not to use slith or nephil. Sure they get bonus points in pole and bows respectively, but I always considered their XP penalty to be more of a liability later in the game. I like to keep that penalty as low as I can, no greater than 18%. For my style of play it works out best to gain as much XP per encounter as I can so I can raise levels faster to get Skill points to increase skills.

 

Gaining a higher skill level boosts the effectiveness of all traits. As I rise through the levels, reaching for strength and melee above level 15 seems to be less important than reaching for a high skill level. That and the use of all the special arms and armor are what I find works for me. By the time I reach level 30 my fighter is pretty much an armored tank. My #2 fighter/thief is strong enough with pole weapons to render as much damage as my tank.

 

Adding priest skills to my mage will increase his spell points as much as mage skills, and also affects the freebie points in spellcaster, magery and magical efficiency the same way. The same goes for adding mage skill to my priest. Now I have two artillery batteries instead of a mortar platoon and one battery. Of course the higher skilled spells go only to the PC specializing in that class. Raising a mage to above level 15 priest is too expensive, and vice versa for the priest. But by the time I've reached this level they are both 20 Int and 15 spellcaster. I forget about magery and m.efficiency as I have items equipped to modify those characteristics. I also use items to boost priest and mage skills so I don't really have to train as many levels in the alternate skill.

 

I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one. I have tried to play 'pure' skill sets and I have always found them wanting. I guess it is pretty much a matter of style.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

l. Sure they get bonus points in pole and bows respectively, but I always considered their XP penalty to be more of a liability later in the game.

If you do the math, you end up saving far more skill points by being a slith/nephil.

Quote:

As I rise through the levels, reaching for strength and melee above level 15 seems to be less important than reaching for a high skill level. That and the use of all the special arms and armor are what I find works for me.

??? How are 'reaching a high skill level' and investing in melee and strength mutually exclusive? Not that I would necessarily recommend you aim for above level 15 in either of those skills.

Quote:

...

Adding priest skills to my mage will increase his spell points as much as mage skills,

I'm pretty sure priest/mage skill doesn't effect spell points.

Quote:

and also affects the freebie points in spellcaster, magery and magical efficiency the same way. The same goes for adding mage skill to my priest.

Yes, priest and mage spells do share the bonuses from magery and spellcraft. The problem is that you won't be able to invest enough in the alternative school of spells to unlock anything worth having.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

I'm not truly racist, but I tend not to use slith or nephil. Sure they get bonus points in pole and bows respectively, but I always considered their XP penalty to be more of a liability later in the game. I like to keep that penalty as low as I can, no greater than 18%. For my style of play it works out best to gain as much XP per encounter as I can so I can raise levels faster to get Skill points to increase skills.

I did the numbers during Avernum 4 and it's fairly consistent that 10% change in penalty due to traits causes 2 levels in difference and this plateaus fairly early in the game. So you are only getting 10 extra skill points per 10%. It worked out the same for Avernum 5 and 6 all the way through the game.

A slith or nephil will give you more than that in combat skills than you can get from skill points and those will help with battle disciplines.

[Earth]

free skills you get choosing sliths/nephils party can be put on something else useful.

[Cynara]

So I slept on my 'final' party concept, and decided that the paladin archetype just wouldn't cut it, not for a party who could swing either way on the good/evil game ending. My *actual* final party, the one I just finished the demo areas with, consists of the following (summaries here, detailed stats attached at bottom):

----------

Two Warriors (pure fighters), conceptually these are two twins who have always trained and fought together. Identical starting stats and identical level-up stats, with the exception that one's trained in melee weapons and the other in pole weapons. Lots of teamwork between these two, for example in boss fights the melee does a shield-breaker while the other follows up with a well-aimed blow. They're always completing each other's sentences too...

 

One archetype I call the Preacher, a thief/mage who 'saw the light' and became a priest, joining the Empire army to do good and spread the word. This is the character who generally pulls the party towards the 'good' ending, but could be persuaded to join the Loyalists due to an anti-authority streak left over from his thieving days.

 

(I originally resisted the idea of a thief with no points in Dexterity, but figured that some mage ability, not to mention innate, streetwise Intelligence, could more than make up for it.)

 

One Hedge Wizard, focused mostly on mage spells but also has some access to priest. Comes from a formerly powerful noble family who were disenfranchised when the Empress came to power, just weeks after her birth. Magically gifted, headstrong, did what she had to for the survival of her family. Was raised endlessly hearing about the lost glory days of the Empire, so she pulls the party towards the 'evil' ending, though if she's perfectly honest with herself she doesn't really like her family all that much.

----------

Here's the way the few moral choices I've seen so far have gone:

 

Per the quartermaster's strict instructions, they drove Dirty Dan off without killing him. His siblings, however, were less fortunate, since they'd holed up in areas where casual witnesses were far less likely, and they were robbing from the Empire after all...

 

They trounced the mad wizard but let him go, since the mayor who'd sent them to take him down hadn't exactly endeared herself to anyone in the party, even before her stunt with the transit papers. Oh, and they let him know who sent them, to make sure he causes more problems for her.

 

They'd originally made a deal with the giant commanding the goblins, but in somewhat petty revenge against that same mayor they went back and took him down. Now the goblins will eventually overbreed themselves into a problem for her again.

 

Surprisingly, everyone, even the Hedge Wizard, agreed to tell Alice first about the Rat Lord's vacancy. Wulf, though from the Empire, was obviously a drunken whiner, while Alice had just as obviously made something of herself. This spoke to everyone in the party.

 

(Please, no spoilers for upcoming choices. I'll post my party's reactions to them as they come along.)

----------

Regarding numbers, I made a small mistake: I knew that race, trait and equipment bonuses did not count towards unlocking skills. What I didn't know is that training *does* count (at least, according to a random forum post I read). So as long as I'm willing to wait a little bit for training, I can squeeze in a few more skills.

 

With Warrior weapon skills, got enough to unlock Blademaster (with some training help) and a couple points in ranged skills (boosted by Deadeye for occasional utility) to bring Battle Discipline points up to 16 cheaply. Hoping to find equipment that'll boost that to 20, otherwise will need to spend another point or two.

 

Preacher's Priest Spells and Hedge Wizard's Mage Spells are left at 8 for now. Traits will eventually boost them by 6, and hoping to find equipment that boosts 3 more to hit 17 for access to the highest spells. So I may need to invest more if I don't find such equipment. Similarly, Preacher's Tool Use is left at 9. Nimble Fingers will boost by 6, and somewhere there's equipment that'll boost it by 3 more, according to Harehunter.

 

One quick question, though I suppose it'll be answered soon once I visit my first trainer: how is skill point cost calculated for trained skills? In the numbers below I've assumed that you can train three times *instead* of using points, meaning that, if you can, you want to invest one starting point in the trained skill first if you plan on adding more later.

 

Updated numbers follow, feedback is always welcome!

==========

basic package (50)

Endurance (8): 10+12+14=36

Arcane Lore (3): 2+2=4

First Aid (4): 2+4=6

Nature Lore (3): 2+2=4

==========

two Warriors, Pure Fighter (208 points spent)

greater trait: Elite Warrior (15% penalty)

lesser trait: Deadeye (10% penalty)

 

basic package: 50

Strength (8): 12+14+16=42

Dexterity (6): 12+14=26

primary weapon (6): 8+10+12=30

secondary weapon (6): 4+(trainingx3)+12=16

Bows (4): 4+6=10

Thrown (4): 4+6=10

Defense (6): 4+6+8=18

Hardiness (4): 2+4=6 [already invested at start before seeing Brocktree's post arguing against it, oops!]

 

Blademaster: (?) [trainingx3]

Parry: (?) [trainingx3]

 

maybe Quick Action?

maybe Quick Strike? [trainingx3]

Dexterity (8)?

more Defense?

==========

Preacher, Priest(/Spellthief) (197 points spent)

greater trait: Pure Spirit (15% penalty)

lesser trait: Nimble Fingers (8% penalty)

 

basic package: 50

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Priest Spells (8): 8+10+12+14=44

Mage Spells (6): 10+12+14=36

Tool Use (9): 2+4+6+8+5=25

 

Spellcraft: (?) [trainingx3]

Magery: (?) [trainingx3]

 

Hardiness?

Defense?

more Mage Spells?

weapon skills for battle disciplines? [may just train these]

==========

Hedge Wizard, Mage(/Priest) (174 points spent)

greater trait: Natural Mage (15% penalty)

lesser trait: Strong Will (10% penalty)

 

basic package: 50

Intelligence (8): 12+14+16=42

Mage Spells (8): 10+12+14+16=52

Priest Spells (6): 8+10+12=30

 

Spellcraft: (?) [trainingx3]

Magery: (?) [trainingx3]

 

Hardiness?

Defense?

more Priest Spells?

weapon skills for battle disciplines? [may just train these]

[Earth]

deadeye is pointless unless you have dedicated bowuser and good bows aren't gotten until somewhat late of game.

 

I have always used Div. Touched and Elite Warrior/Pure Mage/Pure Spirit except at A5 where my 2nd fighter had Nimble Fingers insted EW.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

Tool Use is left at 9. Nimble Fingers will boost by 6, and somewhere there's equipment that'll boost it by 3 more, according to Harehunter.

Look for Nimble Gloves (+2) and a Tinker's Bauble (+1) to augment tool use. Equip only when necessary.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

If you do the math, you end up saving far more skill points by being a slith/nephil.

I never bothered doing the math. I know it is out there to be referenced, but I always became frustrated every time I ran into a situation where one or more PC was useless or ineffective.

Early weaponry and armor was not effective enough fighting 'pure' warriors no matter how high I concentrated on str and melee/pole. So I experimented with ranged weapons. It took a serious investment in dex and bows before I could overcome the weakness of early bows (Bleeping missed again!) and thrown weapons are not much better. Found that the priest spell smite did more damage with 99% hit chance and if you start with level 5, you don't have to buy the early spells, so I went with that. It was also convenient as the dickens having the extra healers in the group and the additional spell points to sling around.

I don't understand the problem getting blademaster. Elite warrior gets you that off the bat and even at the lowest level it is a good multiplier to combat skills. Once a certain level is reached it increases and at some point you can begin to train it, even without training in both weapons styles.

As for mage/priest skills complementing each other, I mean that as you rise through the levels you get freebie points in skills like spellcaster, magerery and m.efficiency. These freebie points are, I think, based on a combination of Int, mage or priest or both combined, and level. No skill points are required. I am not sure, but arcane lore is not affected as this skill is a 'shared' skill, like nature lore. Thusly I concocted my hedge wizard concept so that I am not reliant upon one or the other for a certain skill. I do take advantage of the freebie points you get for pure spirit and natural mage.

Admittedly, much of my style evolved in playing the Exile where some of the really cool spells were, such as divine thud, null fields, field of blades, and one of my favorites, avatar. The first three Avernums were essentially re-covers of the Exile games, so my style did not change much. Av4-6 are significantly different, but since my style still worked, I never bothered adapting to the new features available. Old dogs can learn new tricks, if they aren't stubborn like terriers.

[Slawbug]

Some of your assumptions about how the game works are just wrong. Which is fine if you're playing casually, but if you're making suggestions and engaging in debates about them, it might be a good idea to read up on the info posted in strategy central.

 

For example, you do not get any freebie points for doing mage and priest together, or for Intelligence. Freebie points only ever come from Advantages. And you can never train Blademaster with skill points, unless you increase both Melee and Pole Weapons.

[Txgangsta]

The best party I have found for A5 has one slith pole user, one nephil priest (with good bow secondary), and 2 mages. Generally, one of the mages takes tool use and the other trys for disciplines.

 

The party of which I had the most fun was one Slith Priest and one Nephil mage. They got really strong individually and it kept the game fairly difficult throughout.

[Harehunter]

Perdona me.

 

Admittedly, three times through Exile 1 and 2, and twice through Exile 3 and Avernums 1 - 3 may seem casual to some. And I did play around the BoE circuit for a time, while I was analyzing the scenario files and writing my own version of the editor. I admit my style is unorthodox, but it is what worked best for me (1: QP-Q4). I have always found my strength in unorthodoxy.

 

And the rules have changed drastically in Avernum 4-6. I have only truly played through A4 twice and 5-6 only once, before I went on an intensive mapping campaign, while struggling with the onset of Parkinson's Disease and still trying to perform my duties as a Database Administrator 50 hrs per week. It was only this year, when I changed neurologists, that I found a treatment that really works enough to become engaged again in these forums.

 

I am probably confused as to where those 'freebie' points came from; I just know that during one play through A4, I had trained my priest/mage to level 18 priest, and the next time I checked his stats he was level 19. Where did the extra point in skill come from? Meanwhile, my mage/priest had also picked up an extra point in mage skill. Que pasa dude? I also noticed similar phenomena with other traits on my fighters. I have noted before that I rely heavily on equipping the best items I find in the game, and there is a plethora of items that give bonuses in a lot of skills. Somewhere my natural warrior got an extra couple of points in blademaster. Yes I had equipped a singing rapier for a time, but that was now in the hands of my priest+.

 

Upon your suggestion to review the Strategy Central pages, I quickly found more confusion about untrained skill levels. Further down more confusion ensues. Interestingly, I found no explanation offered for these observations.

 

Curious minds want to know. Shall we resurrect that thread?

[Randomizer]

What you wanted was this as a starting point. Certain traits go up at different levels depending on whether they are strong, medium, or weak. Thats what you are seeing. This is changed from the earlier games where the effect is hidden.

 

A strong trait like Divine Touch goes up every 4 levels. Natural Mage increases Mage Spells, Pure Spirit increases Priest Spells, Elite Warrior increases Blademaster and Parry.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

I have always found my strength in unorthodoxy.

First off, don't worry if some posters sound a little abrasive. Some of these topics have been discussed to death in the past. It's certainly not a reflection on you if people get a little snippy.

Secondly, I understand how unorthodoxy and 'multi-classing' can sound appealing, but it led to my own downfall numerous times in Avernum 5. I have no doubt you can get by quite well in Normal-Hard difficulty, but a party where PCs don't focus on particular skill sets will really struggle.

Avernum 5 is an example of the old saying 'In for a penny, in for a pound'. If you're going to drop a few skill points into a skill, you might as well go all out and get it to a level where it functions reliably.

[Harehunter]

Thanks Brocktree. Snippy people don't really bother me. My boss is a true Cajun; 'nuff said.

 

I am planning another excursion into Av5 in order to complete my Annotated Maps. I was going to run through with a juiced up party, but maybe I will try it with a "Normal" party. The last time I played "normal" was when I played Tatterdemalion. But that scenario forces the issue at its very beginning. I highly recommend that BoE scenario to any one playing any SW game. It is highly educational, and requires a minimum of three play-throughs; six times through is still not enough.

[Harehunter]

Gadzooks! I just realized something. I have been playing a team of standard characters. A fighter/priest is known as a Shaman, and a priest/mage is known as a Hedge Wizard. So a team of two shamans and two hedge wizards is in fact not so abnormal as it seems.

[Brocktree]

I don't think anyone would call such a team abnormal. It's normal for players new to Spiderweb games to create diverse characters. Like you pointed out, the game even has prefab characters with a mixed skill set. That doesn't change the fact that they aren't best optimized for powering your way through Avernum 5.

[madrigan]

It's a role-playing game. Play on the easiest difficulty and create whatever characters you want. In A4-6 you can make significant design errors and still finish the game if you do this.