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What do you think of Litalia?


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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 05:27 AM #36 What do you think of Litalia?

He could not have put dozens of mines in his lab... ;)

And "the first genuine shaper you've encountered happens to be one of the weakest most pathetic shapers in the entire series.  "
Do you mean Diyawania? Cause he's by far NOT weak. I will, obviously, clean his island and yet he wipes me out without a second thought.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:00 AM #37 What do you think of Litalia?

Sorry I drop in so late in conversation; I was writing a very long post about Lilitalia, but I accidently tabulatored my text away and I didn't want to write it all again.
Even less so since it seems we share generally the same opinion when it comes to Litalia.

But, Alhoon, you seem to be a hard-core Rebel, why?
I mentioned in another thread that I compare myself to Don Deroceras (https://youtu.be/Vzx2VIzMpEY?t=4m4s) when it comes to my allegiance in Geneforge. I rarely expressed allegiance to any faction because I found none had acceptable goals.
I did like Don Deroceras does, occasionally scratching someone's back with the intention to gain wealth and influence.
It was only a few playthroughs later (I must have played through the entire series 4 times by now) until I could honestly fight for the Shapers,
with the intention to bring power back to them.
Yes, the Shapers have flaws, and yes, even their strict rules sometimes don't seem strict enough, but that isn't a flaw of the Shapers.
It's in the universe's nature that, no matter how tight you build the mesh, one mosquito will always find it's way through. And, to be honest, not so many mosquitos found their way through the Shaper's mesh.
Many would state otherwise, but this is only an illusion created by the harm one such mosquito can do.

Let's draw the analogy to aviation; many proclaim that aviation is in fact an unsafe means of transportation, because of the existance
of many more air-crash reports than reports of any other kind of crash.
But this is merely an illusion created by the media. Air-crashes are rare, very rare, so when a disaster occurs in aviation, it will reach the front page and everyone will get to know about it, while the thousands of car-accidents that occured globally last month will be disappear into oblivion.
On top of that, aviational disasters are natural to attract more attention than any other kind of crash because they are more spectacular and involve more fire and explosions.
Also, don't think that air-crashes are more gruesome than any other kind of crash. They are more lethal yes, but in other crashes chances are bigger that you end up limbless in a bed for the rest of your life.
In the end, aviation has by and large the lowest casualty-rate and remains the safest means of transportation by far.
The same goes for a disaster in Shaping. There are a couple of known disasters in Shaping, true, but chances that a Shaper goes rogue
and starts creating uncontrolled creations en-masse are relatively small. It's the nature of Shaping-disasters (rarity, spectacularity, ...)
that causes Shaping to seem dangerous and Shapers to be incompetent because of the occurance of disasters despite harsh precaution.

Another misconception about Shapers is that they're heartless, amoral and apathic.
This isn't true, and if you're able to look futher than your nose is long you'll realize this.
Shapers have no patience at all for misplaced empathy, which makes them seem apathic. Rebels have a much easier, tolerant sense of empathy but they seem to lack the more applied, advanced forms. Rebels tend to express empathy more frequently than Shapers do, but Shaper empathy runs deeper than the rebel equivalent.
Also, Shapers try their best to keep a precarious balance between practical accessibility of the Shaping arts, sentimentality and juridical restrictions while rebels attempt to concoct an unrealistic amalgamation of the three.
To draw another analogy to aviation, it is impossible to make an aircraft that is as safe, fast and comfortable as a plane could possibly be.
Aircraft manufacturers have to keep a precarious balance between those three, making compromises on all sides and adapt to diffirent situations  (e.g. by investing more in safety and comfort when constructing a commercial plane).
But this is where the rebels fail; they're trying to build an aircraft that can't fly. The Rebellion has (or on some points, had) mostly good general intentions, but they're unrealistic and short-sighted while the Shapers see the bigger picture.

Many fans on these forums have compared the situation in Geneforge to the American Civil War and even World War II, but I see more simularities with the French Revolution. And I fear that, if the Rebels win the war, the result will be worse than the initial situation. I fear that the Rebels will sacrifice the wealth and safety the Shapers brought upon Terrestia for empathy and morals that can't be realized because of lacking prosperity. The Shapers aren't perfect, no, nobody is always perfect but the Rebellion will do more harm in the long run.
"You were the chosen one! You were to destroy the Slith, not join them!" - Vogel Wan Kenobi

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 12:54 PM #38 What do you think of Litalia?

OK, there's a lot to answer here, but I'll tackle it in a short and incomplete way that would hopefully still give answers.

Yes, I agree that geneforge is close to the French\American Revolution because it is, after all, a revolution. On the other hand, both these bloody revolutions created instability in the short term and see how much better the world is now compared to the 18th century. I.e. Contrary to your statement, I think the long-term effects of the Rebellion would offset the bad.


On Shapers: I respectfully disagree with you. They don't seem apathetic, they are apathetic and increadibly snobbish towards outsiders. That is IMO prevalent in all GF games I've played. Alwan even defends that stance of "screw the Outsiders".


On the rebellion's short-sightness: Again, I disagree. The world the rebels eventually plan to build (not Ghaldring, ALL the rebellion: Serviles, Drayks, Humans and Drakons) may be attainable or not. I actually believe it is attainable to be egalitarian while using Shaping and allow other races to exist in the world of geneforge and I don't see why you say it's not.
On the other hand, the world of the Shapers is doomed to perish. If not in that rebellion, then the next. It is unattainable to think no Shaper would ever make a race that can Shape + keeping whole species as slaves + keeping normal humans under the boot preventing them to reach their ambitions. Something will crack again and a new rebellion will start.
If the humans were kept more primitive, having too much trouble simply surviving, then perhaps you could extend it. But as the increased prosperity of the renaissance brought increasing pressure to the ruling elites, so it would in Terrestia. Humans with few problems would realize that enslaving serviles is morally wrong. That 5 cryodrayks living on a mountaintop without messing with anyone don't deserve to die just because they're too hard to be kept enslaved. That humans should have a greater word on their destiny.
And that would lead to rebellion.


On why I support the (real) rebellion: Because I support egalitarianism. I don't think Drayks and Drakons are abominations that should die for the crime of being individuals and not puppets. I don't think serviles should be kept uneducated and created stupid (like the one Litalia made). I find it cruel to burn serviles to death as they beg for their lives, condemning them to such fate because a Shaper lost control of the puppet-strings (as Litalia did before joining the rebellion). I think Shapers are too tyrannical and too power-hoarding.

Ghaldring's faction is barely better than the Shapers; they want to replace them with Drakons (i.e. Ghaldring) creating more or less most of the same problems. But at least, they don't want to destroy humans and drayks and serviles.
And no, that's not good enough for me. I'm not fighting just so that everyone would have the right to exist, period, while serving reptilian masters instead of robed masters. But the alternative, the status quo, is IMO evidently worse.


WHAT I WANT: The not-so-strange ideal is more like Astoria's\Greta's faction: A modicum of control on who can Shape, restriction (not outright ban) to self-shaping, egalitarianism and more open government.
Add to that a supervising agency and we're good.
Even better: Abolish the magocracy. Shapers\Drakons are not bosses. Drayks, serviles, non-shaping people have their say as Greta tries to accomplish in GF4 and GF5 and the drakons ignore her.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:27 PM #39 What do you think of Litalia?

Have you ever wondered what stops you from writing a document that states you are the all powerful authority and everyone should listen to what you say? The ability to enforce it.

In this world the 'magocracy' essentially exists because there are a bunch of people able to enforce the constitution/laws/whatever binds them together. Without some sort of power behind the government it wouldn't exist. And in a world where mages and shaping abilities exists you simply cannot divorce that from power. Either they need to be in control or someone who controls and wields them needs to be in control. Short of another power (like guns) existing there is no way to separate out the magocracy part of it.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 11:32 PM #40 What do you think of Litalia?

The guns aren't needed. Till you killed them, Batons were a better choice. :p

Well, the Rebellion was listening to the non-shapers more and was promoting more of then to Shaper-dom. The Drakons first with the Shapers close second were far from "Shapers first" although they were hiding it. Both have evolved to "Only we matter but we tolerate the rest". In the past the Shapers were trying to cure people, developed the living tools, ornks, resistant plants, doors-that-open, machinery etc etc.
You all have seen the foundry; these days 1/100 Shapers seems to be working on something beneficial. And before someone says "that's the war!" I remind you that in all the mines, abandoned labs etc there is very little innovation showing. We have reason to believe that the "technological advancement" under the Shapers was moving with glacial speeds at these times.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Owenmoz Owenmoz

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 03:28 AM #41 What do you think of Litalia?

Ahhh now i have lots of opinions to share.
In short. (Its actually long)
Not necessarily the long term effects of the rebelion might as well be the installation of another magocracy. The drakons are definitely more powerful than the human part as evidenced by g4. Obviously less scrpulous in unleashing destruction.
So maybe pararel to the Bolshevik revolution. It started with good intentions. It won, even if for a period they stayed true to their goals (during Lenin's rule) it quickly gave rise to Stalin who undid the little good the revolution had managed and ruled with a tighter iron grip than both the church and the tsars together.( Tru he has advanced society in terms of tech and stuff but a great price) not even the politburo dared move against him and the people didn't either. For all the atrocities he has committed everyone decided it was better and easier to  wait until he dies. And up to date his rule has had bad repercussions. For all efforts the future leaders weren't able to fully erase his influence. And they tried. That to say taking power by force requires use of force to stabilise rule. And further to avoid dissent. It sets a bad precedent and centralises power. And its flipping the coin on who end up with that power weather its a worthy being or not.
Mind that humans had support of drakons to rebel against the shapers. Whose support would they have against the drakons?

On shapers. They SEEM apathetic. They need to create distance from the people and emanate control and authority. That is what kept them in power. Sure creating life is badass but the public needs to revere them and trust them. You can't really trust your life to someone who will get drunk with you and carouse the barmaids. You can't trust the person to have that power either. Some get used to bossing people around and seeing them as tools. But a lot of them still  keep their humanity. Taygen gets an outsider girlfriend. A lots of the shapers care about people. Dinwanya  himself gave room for the general to give suggestions or even make decisions. He was to let the blacksmith use an enchanted forge. He let lankan in close and long enough to get punched by him. Even looks to you for support. Shaper Donnel tries to heal your mind from the effects of  canister abuse. Miranda is very human and straight forward with you. A lot of shapers have a love for teaching. Becoming a shaper is a possibility to any  outsider that can take it.(i think to any mage and any outsider can learn magic.)

And i agree with you that the shaper system is doomed. Creating intelligence without expecting independence is unrealistic. Expecting unconditional obedience is unrealistic. Creating a life form that is basically slave labour is just plain wrong.(draws a paralel with the geth in mass effect).
And killing anything that doesn't fit those requisites  is definitely not ok. A bad and dumb idea.

Thats not to say however that the shaper laws arent wise. Short sighted a bit. But for instance im going to become a genetic engineer. That area is tuled by tight laws and ethics. The simplest example i can give is plants. You create a gm plant, when you do you should make sure it is a sterile plant first and foremost. Why? Because if the polen or the plant escapes to the biosphere it can set out an unpredictable chain of events and drastically change the native flora etc etc... And its a simple plant and thats one of the most basic rules. They exist for a reason. And its not just to hoard power. It is to limit the potentially destructive effects of shaping. You talked about burrowing mold from geneforge 3 created by a shaper. But its a shaper that broke those laws and got swiftly punished for it. They enforce their laws on their own sect. And if such tightly controlled knowledge is  still misused by people well trained on it imagine if they let just anyone on it. Well you get stuff like taygen's puruty agent. Shredbugs, spawners, creators, unbound etc... And that is deliberate misuse of shaper arts for belic reasons. A geneforged person can have in them the innate power to relesse even deadlier diseases. Shaper laws exist for a reason. Shaping arts should be horaded and very few should have access to them.

And true. Drayks and drakons should be able to live. But are they to be ruked by the same laws as humans? As shapers? Are they to be left to their own devices? Specially with the power they have?
Are eyebeasts and gazers to also be allowed to exist?
On the serviles i agree completely. Why i in a lot of games choose a rebel ending.

Self shaping should be banned to. The  idea that the power should be earned and learned not just given is very wise. Actually let me draw the pararel to humans again. Self shaping is really close to the concept of eugenics, which is also forbidden by international law. Because among others it gives room and excuse for ethnic supremacists. Create a discriminatory system based on how "advanced" a person is. Research for such things require human experiments. Which are for one illegal for that matter since the results can be horrendous. And success on it has unpredictable repercussions. Defending self shaping is wrong. For once i do mind strongly if you don't change your mind on that. Excluding the obviously seen effects of canisters all the other reasons should be enough for you to stand against it. I really ask you read more on the subject and its impact on society.

Egalitarianism is the base idea of communism. No social stratification. Equal opportunity. Working together to grow together. All that..  Beautiful ideals. But humans are selfish communism cannot exist. Not in a society where everyone feels the need to be better than the rest. Even with a more open and transparent government there would not be true equality. And the serviles themselves would have to struggle long to be seen as equals by humans. And that wouldn't happen completely.

Abolishing the magocracy as blxz was saying would be impossible unless you remove the magical powers including shapping from everyone. And even then magic would be replaced by something else, the people with better bigger and more swords would be in power. Or the people with more money. doesn't matter. Its how it works. There is no escaping it. There is always power backing authority. If there is no power or at least the illusion of it(preferably both). There is no authority.

EDIT: On tech advancement. There is always stagnation in technological advancement. Never a stop. But always stagnation. Changing the laws wouldn't stop that. They'd just stagnate slightly later when you're done with illegal research. Look at us now. No flying cars and space colonisation yet. Still going forward. Just slower than some 100 years earlier.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 03:47 AM #42 What do you think of Litalia?

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Mind that humans had support of drakons to rebel against the shapers. Whose support would they have against the drakons?
Serviles and Drayks vs the exhausted by the fight Drakons. And as Blxz said...once you actually have mages you will have a magocracy. But at least a better one.
Sure, Ghaldring could have become a Stalin-like figure, but unlike Stalin, Greta and the Drayks are preparing to fight him since late GF4. At the time of the GF4-GF5 games it is more important to topple the Shapers than worry that Ghaldrin and a few Salassar-types would dominate the post-Shaper Era. With the Shapers out of the equation, there can be a future and if needed a new rebellion with Drayks, Serviles that can think for themselves and humans. In a Shaper victory there would be no Drayks, no independent serviles and the humans would have been broken.
It would take probably many failed rebellions against Shaper Tyranny to reach an opportunity for victory as good as it seems to be in GF5. Centuries of oppression.


On the wisdom of Shaper Laws: I agree and I also agree with most of the Shaper laws regarding to Shaping (except the one that creations that break away should be autokilled). It's the part of the Shaper law that considers them the ultimate bosses that can decide on whether someone (even humans to a degree) should exist or not that I can't stomach.
I would like to refer to the common-sense rule about he gm plants you mentioned: Is it there in your rules and ethos anything that says the guy making coffee for you in the cafeteria of the facility is supposed to jump when you say jump? Are you his ruler because you can design (responsibly) gm plants?  I guess no and that the constitution of the area makes you equal in the eyes of the law.

That difference is why I hate the Shapers. With the rebels, it could be a better future or perhaps a worse one, but the existing situation has to go cause it's very difficult to make things worse than they are with the Shapers.

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And its a simple plant and thats one of the most basic rules. They exist for a reason. And its not just to hoard power.
It's not at all to hoard power I think. The rules that are about "hoarding power" (i.e. money) in your field are, I think, the rules about industrial espionage so that you can't just move to a different company and give them all the nice stuff.


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  Dinwanya  himself gave room for the general to give suggestions or even make decisions.
Diya's general had to work behind his back for one of the most reasonable ideas that could have restored peace. That someone just fresh out of the lab, and young, would just allow his general to make a few suggestions and not vice versa (i.e. the general running things and Diya being locked in his lab making things and offering suggestions) is part of the problem. Who the heck was Diya, to be made responsible of a colony under attack? The so-responsible-Shaper law, should have a clause that junior governing shapers surrender authority if their place is under attack to veterans, even if they are outsiders.
Remember Rockfall in GF5? With the Outsider in command and Shapers dropping by, making creations and leaving, allowing an actual military man, not a book-worm, to command the situation? That kind of thing.

Drayks, Drakons, Gazers: All sentient creations must be set free and allowed to exist. If some of them go anti-social... well, that's what Guardians\Warriors and Agents\infiltrators are for.


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And i agree with you that the shaper system is doomed. Creating intelligence without expecting independence is unrealistic. Expecting unconditional obedience is unrealistic. Creating a life form that is basically slave labour is just plain wrong.
And killing anything that doesn't fit those requisites  is definitely not ok. A bad and dumb idea.
Well, Blxz can tell you more about it, but from what I've seen from his game, Taygen (that seems to agree with the first part of what you said but not the other two) proves that it is an immoral but working idea. He succeeds.
If the Shapers refrain from making intelligent life again, and stop at stupid semi-sentient alphas along with a small number of dumb serviles (the kind Litalia makes) they can at least not have to worry about intelligence leading to independence.


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They need to create distance from the people and emanate control and authority. That is what kept them in power.
If what keeps them in power is not their wise use of this power, the need to lose their power.
Which is what I work for. ;)

PS. I actually disagree that the appearance of control kept them in power. While appearances helped, it is mainly their cruel, cold and uncompromising evisceration of anyone that remotely disagrees with them*  that held them in power coupled with their magical abilities and an unending pool of Battle Alphas.
* I would remind you the fate of captured Trakovites in GF4 and the multitude of whipping tools in their settlements and forts. Alwan especially seems a bit too fond to have his soldiers tied to posts and whipped for any discipline infraction. I would love to see you Shaper-buddies defend torture and locking people in cages to die of starvation for suspected harboring of weird ideas.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Owenmoz Owenmoz

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 05:53 AM #43 What do you think of Litalia?

We can all agree that there is no example of a two in a row revolution. And that humans, drayks and serviles would be as exhausted as the drakons by the end of the war(if not more as most fighting was done by them while drakons hid and did magic shappy things in the labs)

No because genetic engineers didn't create international law or any constitution. UN and governments are the ones with power. And both can pretty much have cafeteria guys jump when they say jump. If it were us to create the laws and enforce them i don't think the justifications on why i hold the power matter as much as the fact that i do. But the shapers don't have power only because they can shape. They may have siezed it thanks to it. But they would n't have held it just for it.

True. Corporate espionage is a crime and most research facilities have a non disclosure clause. But the big difference here is companies do it solely due to intellectual property and money. And that sure is hoarding power. Unlike for instance me handing the nuclear weaponry research to the Syrian rebels. It is not about whats right or wrong or about money in this case. Its about preventing disaster that arises from irresponsible use of power. Much proven true as instead of doing helpful research the rebels are just wreaking havoc. And thats a very not in depth take on it. Same with the Syrian rebels. I don't doubt for a second they would use what they can to win. Weather their motivations are right or not doesn't matter. They shouldn't have access to it.

Your take that diya's general went against his back is contradictory to another take where you say
" it is mainly their cruel, cold and uncompromising evisceration of anyone that remotely disagrees with them" cause thats not even remotely. Thats straight up insubordination
Besides in geneforge 4 the shapers are at war. All countries have a clause for martial law which includes curfews and severe crackdown of human rights for the preservation of the state.
Also Diya was sent to harmony before the rogues. And  having a shaper law asking a shaper to step down in favour of a more experienced comander would require the shapers to have been faced with a similar situation before. They haven't.  The whole shaper army hasn't seen real war for millennia. So in this aspect a young shaper is as good as his general. That general was no veteran. Older yes. But this is the first time they are facing a situation if those.

Gazers are not sentient. They are insane. Weather they are simply sociopaths or psychopaths is to flip a coin. And more so that they view themselves above law. Any law. Without a law to govern them they should not exist. And i say the same for any human. In fact that is why death sentences exist.(and the general penal code)


If they are not intelligent they don't need independence. In truth they shouldn't have it as they can't take care of themselves. The plan in itself would be acceptable were it not fpr the fact that its preceded by a mass genocide of basically everything.

And the rebels are wiser in their use of power? Unless there is a viable alternative why overthrow something that works?
Finally rebels don't look any kinder on traitors. They lack the means and time to enforce it well but in no way are their intentions different.

That being said im glad part of what i said earlier got to you.


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Posted 02 October 2016 - 06:31 AM #44 What do you think of Litalia?

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We can all agree that there is no example of a two in a row revolution.  
Eh, no. It's actually quite common for the victors of a rebellion to turn on each other. Since I don't want to turn it political, I'll refer historical examples since current civil wars actually affect people that may be in this forum or visit it in the future. Out of respect for them, I will try to stay out of anything 21st century.

Greek independence war: We had TWO civil wars while fighting the Turks on which side would govern Greece once we won, and the 2nd stopped mainly because we nearly lost the revolution.
Second Balkan war: OK, we nearly kicked the Turks out of the Balkans, who would own which part of the newly liberated Balkans? War.
Greek resistance against Nazi occupation: Rightwings and leftwings were more or less fighting among themselves from late 1943 and once the Germans left, we went to a full-blown civil war that lasted for extra 3 years.

Without googling it, I think the Irish did the same when fighting against the English in early 20s.

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And that humans, drayks and serviles would be as exhausted as the drakons by the end of the war(if not more as most fighting was done by them while drakons hid and did magic shappy things in the labs)
It is actually the opposite. In the finale of GF4, the Drakons let the human side back to rebuild.
In GF5, there's Phyllida and Greta in the Drakon cities, both angry that the Drakons have them benched while they fight the Shapers mostly by themselves. Phyllida is very illuminating about that, saying that although she's a commander back in the human-side (half of Terrestia) she wanted action, not watch ornks grow so she asked to be transferred to the front.
On the contrary, Drakons have moved most of their equipment and numbers to the front lines, in the just-built Gazaki-Uss, which proves to be a grave mistake for them.

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Thats straight up insubordination
And Alwan or Crowly would have had him tied in  post and flogged for that. Taygen was abusing even his Guardian general. Rawal would have placed a control tool in him. Etc.
Diya-? is not cruel and tyrannical. The Shaper order is.


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  And  having a shaper law asking a shaper to step down in favour of a more experienced comander would require the shapers to have been faced with a similar situation before. They haven't.  The whole shaper army hasn't seen real war for millennia.
While not as bad, they had faced rebellions in the past (and tried to suppress knowledge of them) and they finished the conquest of Terrestia about a couple of centuries before GF5, since all the "wood people" forts are said to be about that old. And since those areas are next to their birthplace, they got Ilya and the other parts later.
Thinking of it... they haven't finished with the Forsaken lands of GF4 when the rebellion took it from them; sure they didn't have to conquer them since they were empty lands, but they haven't finished terra-forming them.


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So in this aspect a young shaper is as good as his general. That general was no veteran. Older yes. But this is the first time they are facing a situation if those.
Hmmm... I have to admit you're absolutely right on that and I would even go as far as to say that a young shaper is BETTER than an outsider. The general is older and neither has faced enemy shapers. And Diya-? is at least a Shaper and has a better idea of what a Shaper could do. Both were unprepared.
Yes, I have to admit that although I don't like Dina-? he has more qualifications for being the commander in that situation (although he's a pompous whiner).

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Gazers are not sentient. They are insane. Weather they are simply sociopaths or psychopaths is to flip a coin. And more so that they view themselves above law. Any law. Without a law to govern them they should not exist. And i say the same for any human.
I disagree that they are universally insane and harmful to society. I disagree that they see themselves above any law. I disagree that without a law to govern them they should not exist.
They are also awesome and I usually make several! How dare you sir, say that my favorite warriors should be put to death once they finish their term with me? I imagine my character keeping my Drakon and Thralls enslaved and releasing to freedom gazers and cryodrayks. (My end-game party is usually Cryodrayk, Drakon, Thrall, Gazer + extras)


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And the rebels are wiser in their use of power? Unless there is a viable alternative why overthrow something that works?

O_O
Never said that. They are more willing to share governing power. They are far less tyrannical.
They are also grossly less wise in their use of Power. Sure, they didn't make the Purity agent or any disease but the Shredbugs are not too far behind + Unbound and of course, the most unwise use of power of them all: Geneforge. TOO much power that doesn't just corrupt as power tends to do...it also makes you less sane.

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Finally rebels don't look any kinder on traitors. They lack the means and time to enforce it well but in no way are their intentions different.

Only Litalia spends any effort to go after Trakovites from the rebels and few enforce her wishes. The Drakons don't give a rat. Also "traitor" doesn't mean someone that says "perhaps Shaping is not so blessed after all. I think we should stop it. Just a personal opinion. Would you like something to drink?
They also deal with traitors less cruelly.


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That being said im glad part of what i said earlier got to you.
Hmmm? Which part? I'm always willing to admit that the Rebels have tons of rotten eggs and they commit atrocities, and I'm always eager to overthrow the Shapers despite my allies being far from ideal.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 06:40 AM #45 What do you think of Litalia?

View Postalhoon, on 02 October 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

Eh, no. It's actually quite common for the victors of a rebellion to turn on each other. Since I don't want to turn it political, I'll refer historical examples.


I wss going to say its not the same. But well it is. Even the russian revolution(actually this one could be classified as 3 wars in a row/simultaneous, all short lived though) was like so. And South Sudan as well.

That being said there is a difference between a power struggle which is usually the cause for those things falling appart and an ideological one. They mix it up a lot of times but in general it comes down to who wants to be in power. In this case its not about power really. Its about ideology.

Edit: to avoid multiple posts ill let you wrap up your points first. Anyway people really really don't like war. Im not familiar with your examples but if im to bet, i would on those wars not having lasted long.


Alright i think you're done. So mainly. Tru some people have the will to go to war repeatedly. My experience with that first and second hand is people quickly settle for tyranny if it brings safety. But I overstepped when generalising.

Also right. I inconveniently forgot that. I was referring mostly to g4 on that. But on g5 the human rebels were engaging Astoria right? Their limited participation on the war was due to the truce. Still drakons are more powerful than either they single handedly saved the rebelion. As they created the unbound without human help.


Yeah. Shapers are very strict but they don't destroy people who remotely disagree. The mayor of dilame was merely moved to a closet.

The main difference on the previous rebelions drypeak not included is that they had no shaping. Mere humans even mages are easy to subjugate. Or how the saying goes a shaper is an army. What diya and current shapers were/are facing is fellow shapers and creations. All those rebelions barely had time to be spoken of. Also the whole geneforge timeline is iffy depending on what game you base it on. Using g1 as a base they haven't had a true war in millennia. But granted by g5 they do mention previous small scale rebelions.

Lolz. I'll never understand your dislike for him. He's like a younger brother to me. Much love.


Ok... They are awesome in battle. Also a fave of me(unlike vlish... Icky floating thingys)  my final thing is cryodrayk rotgoth and gazer(kyshak too in the last ones). That being said srsly in 5 games i cant think of a single stable gazer. Its part of why i love them/fear them. So maybe a few are sane. But mostly... Nahh... Besides nothing should exist without laws to govern themselves like drayks and drakons could be governed under human law with certain cultural exceptions( mainly for instance the makonde tribe can cut ebony for cultural reasons while its illegal for anyone else to do it) some small concessions and limited autonomy.  I don't see gazers accepting it. They keep to themselves mostly ya. But they are a danger to anyone that crosses paths with them. That will not do. I blame the shapers for the defective shaping of their minds. But still. They crazy.

No you didn't say that. But you did say: "If what keeps them in power is not their wise use of this power, the need to lose their power.
Which is what I work for. ;)" My questions were based on this.

And no, litalia is responsible for that and diplomatic relations. As well as greta. Both of which enforce the laws to remove dissent. I.e. trajkovites. And tech traitor also means that. Ghaldring has you try to kill litalia because she was a traitor.
They simply have no need to make examples. It isn't their authority thats being questioned.

Mostly on the shaper laws being wise and not just hoarding. Cept the genocidal ones.

To be fair i am not pro shaper. I just don't like the leadership the rebels have. And their methods. Ideally were shapers more lenient and open minded it would be best. Like what Astoria is trying. Im just sad it took a war of that scale to  open her eyes.

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 08:49 AM #46 What do you think of Litalia?

Quote

Im not familiar with your examples but if im to bet, i would on those wars not having lasted long.
They lasted for many years. I would also like to say that people really, really like war, when it's others losing sons. I.e. the people that make the decisions, the people that have less to lose and the people that stand to gain more (usually the very same group) are pro-war. Hence, Humanity has been in constant warfare until... 70 years ago.


Quote

As they created the unbound without human help.  
Litalia and the player help them create the Unbound and Greta helps defending them. The Canister junky, Jarred, also helps make the Unbound. Man, how I wanted to kill that guy...
Anyway, yes, the Drakons are more powerful than the rest of the rebellion. However, they're arrogant. The Shapers were more powerful than the rebellion initially, and lost tons of land.

Quote

In this case its not about power really. Its about ideology.
It is more about power IMO. And the part about ideology? That's because the ideology is who would have the power.
Shapers - Drakons - The real rebellion, all three sides fight for power. And within the Drakons... they fight for power (and to get rid of Scottish drakons) constantly. To the point that each time I meet Ghaldring, I have to kill some of his competitors.

Quote

  Ghaldring has you try to kill litalia because she was a traitor.  
No, he does not. The Drakon in the lab tries to get Litalia killed and tells you to keep it a secret cause Ghadring nearly killed this Drakon when she suggested it.
And to return to Litalia, actually that's a spoiler, nevermind.
Greta harbors Trakovites in GF5 and the rebels, after Litalia left the rebellion largerly leave the Trakovites be, as we learn from a Trakovite in a city.

Quote

To be fair i am not pro shaper. I just don't like the leadership the rebels have. And their methods. Ideally were shapers more lenient and open minded it would be best. Like what Astoria is trying. Im just sad it took a war of that scale to  open her eyes.   

So... after pages of discussion that could be full essays, you tell me we mostly agree (with the exception I like Greta and Mekhen the Servile boss).
Well played sir, well played.

Quote

Yeah. Shapers are very strict but they don't destroy people who remotely disagree. The mayor of dilame was merely moved to a closet.
He didn't disagree. Alwan just wanted his office, so he was just kicked in a closet cause who-the-heck-cares-about-the-outsider-boss.
The Trakovite corpses in the cages, these belonged to people that remotely disagreed. Or to people that gave them a little food in secret.


Quote

The main difference on the previous rebelions drypeak not included is that they had no shaping. Mere humans even mages are easy to subjugate.
We don't know that. In fact, there's enough evidence in barred locations of Shapers that not only ignored orders, but turned against the Order. So, it's reasonable to assume that 2-3 snubbed\exiled Shapers would have started a rebellion at some point, perhaps even taking students illegally.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:18 AM #47 What do you think of Litalia?

Tru. I don't get how though. It is not a nice experience not being sure about the future and all most of all that. You don't know what to look forward to and you can't plan for anything. And it does craps to the economy. working is pointless. ehhh lets just say war is stupid and again. in my experience people settle for tyranny if it gives stability.

The unbound were developed by the drakons in secret. human participation was a diplomatic token. They were not needed. And only had a role in the very last part of it.
And true, arrogance brought the shapers down. But surprise, complacency and the limitations of their own laws too. Drakons wouldn't be too surprised and they have  no laws. If anything they can shape themselves further into stronger even more powerful beings. Im not saying humans have no chance. Just saying it wpuld drag out for very very very long. And with new unbound shredbugs and diseases roaming the victor will be king of a sewage.

I don't think the human rebels care much about who stays in power. So long as its fair and not autocratic. Drakons do care about who stays in power. But like i said. The war take wasn't my best argument. After all it doesn't really matter why they fight. But that they do.



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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:23 AM #48 What do you think of Litalia?

Sane Gazers: There is one in GF4 that guards the passage to Burnwood. There's also a couple sane ones in GF5 that are lightly pro-rebel. They took claim of some land, and don't bother anyone except to harass Shapers One is Taliss-? in the big fort, that has mind-wiped the commander. The other... the other controls some forces against the Shapers in the passage to the big Shaper capital and attacks on sight. Yes, he counts as sane; he has a job to do, and does it.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:28 AM #49 What do you think of Litalia?

View Postalhoon, on 02 October 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Ah... I see you haven't seen all the endings of GF5.
I actually have just its tricky not to spoil to blxz so im arguing on the possibility not canon.

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:32 AM #50 What do you think of Litalia?

Well, let's say that I have predicted the outcome of the spoily one. ;) From what several people (humans, serviles and Drayks) say in GF4 and GF5 it wasn't hard to predict.
The first blows are done within GF5. Remember that weirdo servile that has a control tool? Foot-racer? She's loyal to Ghaldring and would allow me to pass. Guess what I did in order to help Phyllida of the human side.


EDIT: Changed the spoily part so could you remove it from your quote?
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:41 AM #51 What do you think of Litalia?

View Postalhoon, on 02 October 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well, let's say that I have predicted the outcome of the spoily one. ;) From what several people (humans, serviles and Drayks) say in GF4 and GF5 it wasn't hard to predict.
The first blows are done within GF5. Remember that weirdo servile that has a control tool? Foot-racer? She's loyal to Ghaldring and would allow me to pass. Guess what I did in order to help Phyllida of the human side.

Hahahahahahaha! Thats a mercenary heart my man! And true it was predictable. More so in g5 than g4 as at least ghaldring didn't seem too arrogant. I got annoyed at g5 for not bringing any voice to the rebelion. The best options are not the actual rebels.

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 10:10 AM #52 What do you think of Litalia?

That was not mercenary heart. I didn't know that they had canisters (although truth be told, I guess they would have). I did it to weaken Ghaldring's faction in the rebellion. I was angry with him.

As for voice of the rebellion, Greta is quite open on working with Astoria, to the point of admitting it and vocal on her misgivings with Ghaldring.
As a note, the mod I work on now, includes several rebel quests for Greta.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 10:45 PM #53 What do you think of Litalia?

Wow. The paragraphs just got longer and longer. I haven't kept up. Although it seems at this point you seem to be going back and forth.

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 11:52 PM #54 What do you think of Litalia?

Well, we've reached a consensus in most things but one: Gazers. Which I will talk about in another thread.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:18 AM #55 What do you think of Litalia?

Tbh i never really  not kill footracer. I always powergame. So i always kill him. I said mercenary over the token that allows you safe passage. But i get you on that. Idk if it has any real effect though?

Greta is cool but she isn't really in prominent on that game. She seems to be there as a by the way.
Ahh i never got the mod. Unfortunately my main pc broke down so im stuck with a husk.


And tru. I met my match here. Actually better. And sometimes even i wasn't sure what we arguing about.

Tru again. Gazers are a danger to society!

Ps. I'm not being "too" responsive cause of work so; sorry.

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:44 AM #56 What do you think of Litalia?

Well, Footracer is a she. :) Greta is by-the-way in the game, cause the humans are sidelined. Unfortunately. In a way, Litalia was by-the-way in GF4. She didn't do much except tell her story to the player and perhaps give 1-2 quests.
As of the mod nobody got it, since it's not the one I've uploaded, it's the one I work on. ;)
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:46 AM #57 What do you think of Litalia?

I didn't get the first is what i meant. I heard you did a warrior kinda one too

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:52 AM #58 What do you think of Litalia?

I am making one, I didn't make it yet. That's the one with the rebel missions as the player takes over command of rebel outpost.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:50 PM #59 What do you think of Litalia?

Ah you are an angel. I always wanted  that. But i had in mind to get kratoa kell or whats its name after makkar dies. But i'd settle for rebel base. Its grate i tells ya grate! I just wish i could take it over as a shaper or of the kind. Still doe. Grate.

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 01:44 AM #60 What do you think of Litalia?

Quote

Ah you are an angel. I always wanted  that. But i had in mind to get kratoa kell or whats its name after makkar dies. But i'd settle for rebel base. Its grate i tells ya grate! I just wish i could take it over as a shaper or of the kind. Still doe. Grate.     

You won't have to. I planned exactly that for the Shaper side. But don't expect that for a long time. The Shaper\Lifecrafter one took several months.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:51 AM #61 What do you think of Litalia?

Back to what I think of Litalia, something more I found out: Litalia was the first to design control tools like the ones Rawal has made. She didn't like the idea not because it is downright evil, but because it may get your best tools (i.e. people working for you) killed before their time.

So, I think we're back to "I didn't see any atrocity or crime in GF that Litalia hasn't commit already"
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:39 PM #62 What do you think of Litalia?

Yeah... it seems Litalia just gets more and more insane (and powerful) as the series goes on. Starting from GF3, she's already insane. The games after that simply make that insanity even worse. XD

I wasn't really too surprised when Litalia said she and Ghaldring designed the control tool way before Rawal. Considering who the two of them are, I'm not really very shocked to hear it.

"I didn't see any atrocity or crime in GF that Litalia hasn't commit already"
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm actually struggling to think of something really evil or insane that Litalia hasn't done already. XD XD XD

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:32 PM #63 What do you think of Litalia?

I think of some, but they (thankfully) cannot be posted in a family-friendly forum.
Except the... veiled hints she had a crush on a big reptilian creature. In GF3 she clearly states she serves the Drakons although not as an equal. In GF4 though she is the head of the human side and at least considers herself equal to Ghaldring. In GF5 she cries once Ghaldring is killed and, crazy #### like she is, also says the chains are finally broken. Add on that that Ghaldring went out of his way to make sure no Drakon would harm Litalia. And that Litalia had nearly completed her genocide (or so she claims) before Ghaldring convinced her to just change the side she wipes out of existence and nowhere does she or Ghaldring mention Litalia was losing the battle with Ghaldring. It seemed as if she was winning.

Those hints that Litalia was as sick and canister-blind as to be romantically attracted to a big upright lizard because of the power it radiates, was in the game although it could well be my sick imagination and Litalia-bias. The kind of "Since Litalia mentions it, let's take it the worse possible way!"
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:07 AM #64 What do you think of Litalia?

Ok so now we're kinkshaming litalia?
(I legitimately love how it's next to impossible to run out of subjects on this forum)

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:29 PM #65 What do you think of Litalia?

To be more precise we are kinkshaming Ghaldring. It's as perverse for him as for Litalia. But Litalia is attracted to essence and is bat-crazy. Ghaldring is supposed to be the most reasonable of the two. SHAME on him.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:39 PM #66 What do you think of Litalia?

It actually sounds less like kinkshaming and more like bias against interracial attraction.  They aren't animals; they're both clearly sentient and capable of making and understanding their own choices.  It's unusual, sure, but how is it "perverse"?*

This forum, btw, is full of people who have been told, at some point in their life, that their own attractions to other humans are "perverse."  Just some relevant context there.


*I also don't really understand where alhoon is extrapolating any of this attraction from -- it seems like a pretty far-fetched interpretation to me -- but at this point, the cat is out of the baboon.
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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:03 PM #67 What do you think of Litalia?

(Clearly I intend those in a lighthearted manner, although I do believe those things)

- Litalia is not able to understand her own choices as shown in her changing sides several times + "Unbound are awesome!"\"oh crap, I'll leave the Rebellion over the Unbound (that I helped create)", "Canisteeeers!"\"I am shaping myself to deshape myself", "Control tool are awesome"\"They are flawed", more things.
- In my opinion romantic attraction between a human and a 12' tall upright reptilian creature (inter-species attraction, not inter-racial) is perverse, not unusual. You said it yourself " their own attractions to other humans...". Drakons are not humans. Apes are closer to humans than Drakons.

In more serious note:
I believe there are some hints about Litalia's unnatural romantic attraction to Ghaldring from what I've seen in GF5 in her story and her ending if we add it on what Litalia says about the Drakons in GF3 (to the point I am now, early 3rd island).
I completely agree and admit that I pulled and twisted what was presented in the games to present Litalia in yet more bad light.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 06:17 PM #68 What do you think of Litalia?

View PostIn the details, on 10 March 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

They aren't animals; they're both clearly sentient and capable of making and understanding their own choices.  It's unusual, sure, but how is it "perverse"?*

This forum, btw, is full of people who have been told, at some point in their life, that their own attractions to other humans are "perverse."  Just some relevant context there.

View Postalhoon, on 10 March 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

- In my opinion romantic attraction between a human and a 12' tall upright reptilian creature (inter-species attraction, not inter-racial) is perverse, not unusual. You said it yourself " their own attractions to other humans...". Drakons are not humans. Apes are closer to humans than Drakons.
Mentally, Drakons are a whole lot more human than apes are.  Animals can't really give consent; a drakon is certainly at least as capable of that as a human is.  In reality, we don't have any other species that can give consent like humans can, which is why "inter-species" -- while technically accurate -- implies far more of a gap (as we use the word in our world) than what is really going on here.

I don't know how much you go for classic SF, but do you feel it is equally "perverse" when you have a human/elf pair like Aragorn and Arwen?  Maybe elves look "human enough"; what about the parade of mixed children on Star Trek -- half-Vulcans, half-Klingons, half-Bajoran-half-Cardassians.  Is their existence "perverse"?  The Trek examples are explicitly different species (sometimes with radically different biology that surpasses Drakon/human differences: see the Changeling/Bajoran romance).  (Spiderweb games have examples too: there is an NPC in A4 who is implied to be the offspring of a human and a nephil.)

Either those examples are just as perverse, or your judgment isn't actually about "species" as you state, but something else.  And in that case, the parallel with calling someone "perverse" because they are attracted to characteristics of the "wrong" gender seems pretty clear.
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Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:03 PM #69 What do you think of Litalia?

Of course I don't consider half-elves perverse! Elves are nice looking. They are "human-like" enough. I don't know about many of the STrek things, but Half-Vulcans are OK-ish in my book, half-Klingons are not. About the parallel with homophobia... I really don't see it at all, let alone "pretty clearly". It seems to me as a huge leap of logic.


Back to Litalia: I am not sure she's mentally able to give consent. She's bat-crazy.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 05:17 AM #70 What do you think of Litalia?

View PostIn the details, on 10 March 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

Either those examples are just as perverse, or your judgment isn't actually about "species" as you state, but something else.

View Postalhoon, on 10 March 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

Of course I don't consider half-elves perverse! Elves are nice looking... Half-Vulcans are OK-ish in my book, half-Klingons are not.
I think this makes it very clear that your use of "perversion" does not actually depend on species -- it depends on appearance.

Calling somebody else perverse because of the physical appearance they end up being attracted to...

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