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Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)


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Alberich Alberich

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 08:45 PM #36 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

I explained my pro-Redbeard views in this old thread -- http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/15219-fighting-redbeard-a-poll-spoilers-within/#entry194696 – now, mind you, I prefer an arrangement where Hanvar’s Council performs its duties of oversight, but in light of the constant dangers the Pact faces, throwing Redbeard away looks crazy to me.  

Quote

I meant that Shaper law regarding not shaping one self, about not shaping creations that can Shape etc remain in place!
And then, restrictions like "you need written permission by your civilian leader to have an essence pool* so you don't go Monarch and of course have the inquisition check your place for CMDs (Creations of Mass Destruction) after you make one"


So in a way it would be an Avadon-like arrangement, with the Shapers in the role of Avadon itself, and the non-shaper sovereigns in the role of Hanvar’s Council…though exercising lots of oversight.    I could get behind an arrangement like that.   But mind you, I think they key to a safer future is the enforcement of the laws you’re talking about…regardless of whether the sovereign power is in the hands of shapers or civilians.    

I wholly agree on the power of those shaping pools.  If I remember, that’s how I beat the “trials” in G3…kept running back to the pools to make more roamers while the golems beat up the ones I left behind.  It took a while but supplies were unlimited.  

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 02:35 AM #37 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

I have not even read a synopsis of what Avadon is, so I can't comment on that.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 02:39 AM #38 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

About those essence pools. I have found a couple given to OUTSIDERS for all things. There are people working with pure-steel that have an essence pool nearby. Shaper facilities are full with those, unsupervised. At least, in the Azeraph fort of GF4 (Monarch's area) the pools were in the open with General Crawley and that Shaper woman that you trick to shape you in order to give you +1 spellcraft. Since you can't shape in combat that would mean I couldn't defeat them all.
On the contrary most places that have essence pools, have them undefended.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Rawal Rawal

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 03:33 AM #39 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

View PostBlxz, on 18 June 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

My understanding is that generally you find people who support shaper's also tend to view Redbeard in a more favourable light as well, and vice versa. You yourself fit this generalisation pretty well from the very limited engagement I've had with you.

Makes sense. I guess it's a similar theme of freedom vs. safety. Mostly, my objection to Redbeard is that he's terrible at his job, although I admit to supporting greater oversight for Avadon (just as I wouldn't like GCHQ operating completely independently and above the law).


I think there's evidence in the text to suggest that essence pools aren't actually infinite - they just get restocked "behind the scenes" within gameplay. So you couldn't quite conquer Terrestia from a single essence pool. I agree that shaping equipment generally is what makes shapers so dangerous though - which suggests the regulating the outsiders who make them is probably just as important as regulating the shapers themselves.
"It is a game of madness. I have retired from it." ~ Rawal

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 04:04 AM #40 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Yes, essence pools are not infinite and they need to be fed and all.
But with one essence pool you could realistically have the equivalent of 50+ essence pods per day without endangering the pool. That's more than enough to cause a hell of trouble.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε דארת ערני ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε דארת ערני

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 11:03 AM #41 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

It states in a number of places that they need to be fed to stay alive.

Behold! The Drizzle......of DEATH!!!!!! . . . . . . .-visual effect of using powerful spells in Avadon 2 (they're a bit of a letdown compared to their damage)

When they eventually find a piece of ash that they think was you, they bury it with great honor........ -A2CS ending script from portal explosion

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 11:17 AM #42 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

That doesn't change the fact that if fed and not over-used they could provide essence required for hundreds of creations each day.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Karan S'jet Karan S'jet

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 12:23 PM #43 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

The limit on Shapers seems to be how quickly they can get new permanent creations out of vats and how many creations they can control at once without risking them going rogue, not the availability of raw materials.
The mutilation of the self is the only path towards real personal growth.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 02:41 PM #44 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Yeap.
See the fight in the end of GF5 in particular. There are 3-4 Shapers and 8 Drakon lifecrafters. They have probably 100s of pods each. The battle could go on forever... This dozen of lifecrafters makes over 500 creations.

What I'm saying is that if there's no shaper around to counter a Shaper with an essence pool, he could send 5 by 5 by 5 creations out to fight and die. I have emptied whole zones that way.
I defeated the whole Rebel army in GF5, that's in the border with the 4 Unbound that way.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Karan S'jet Karan S'jet

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 05:18 PM #45 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

The obvious in-world response, which the game AI is obviously not made to take, is to actually go to the essence pool with more than five creations, and overwhelm the Shaper who is only doing five at a time. :p

This is actually how the PCs - and in several scripted sequences, NPCs - respond to things like spawners, which are functionally a limitless creation factory.
The mutilation of the self is the only path towards real personal growth.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE
TELL ME. . .
WHAT AM I?
I CANNOT SEE

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 05:31 PM #46 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Yes, but that assumes another shaper and one that knows where the monsters are coming from and the forces mastered to be able to overtake the Shaper going berserk in the pool. Of course there are counter measures. But that could be said for anything.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Blxz Blxz

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 06:53 PM #47 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

In G1 they talk about how the pools survive from sunlight. Many have lasted the ~100-200 years that the island was abandoned.

Was this retconned in a later game so that they need feeding?

Karan S'jet Karan S'jet

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 02:57 AM #48 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Substitute "dudes with swords" for creations if you want. Doesn't have to be a Shaper.

And, probably, you could follow the trail all those creations are leaving back to the essence pool.

The effectiveness of one Shaper making five creations at a time from safety and winning by attrition is an artifact of the game. I can't imagine that ever being much more than a nuisance to any serious target. The real power of Shapers seems to be their ability to create endless large semi-independent armies with the aid of installations and machinery, creations which can then be given to handlers. Not so much their ability to make five leashed creations at a time which they lead personally.

A Shaper making waves of creations with which to harass the surrounding area would be dangerous, sure, but not the kind of thing that razes cities and crushes armies.
The mutilation of the self is the only path towards real personal growth.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE
TELL ME. . .
WHAT AM I?
I CANNOT SEE

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 07:37 AM #49 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

" A Shaper making waves of creations with which to harass the surrounding area would be dangerous, sure, but not the kind of thing that razes cities and crushes armies "
Monarch. :)


But yes, aside of that crazed old loon, you are right. Of course a lone shaper sending waves wouldn't raze cities but Shapers in the game in forts etc can handle shaping 7-10 war tralls or rots aside of a few creations around them. Those can defeat 30+ soldiers in open battle. Add in walls and turrets for the defenders and the soldiers would win, but with casualties. By the time the dust settles and all those rots are dead, the soldiers would be wounded while 10 more rots would arrive in 10-15 minutes. And then 10 more. And then 10 more etc
If the surviving soldiers get OUT of the fort/town to attack the shaper they would be caught in the open and killed.


So, of course a moderately skilled shaper with a pool won't be able to destroy a kingdom 8 Vlish\battle alphas at a time. But a competent shaper could overcome a town with 1000-2000 people with practically no casualties.


"Substitute "dudes with swords" for creations if you want"
There's another problem with this: A dude takes ~20 years to be competent with a sword. A battle Alpha takes a few seconds...
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 05:31 PM #50 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Quote

Interesting perspective!  Litalia certainly does want to induce fear (of shaping) and use it to change the behavior of a government or civilian population (the shaper council), so she meets the typical statutory definition…
But she doesn’t really tweak like a terrorist.  The terrorists I know about, whatever they say about the world they want to build, always seem to have a good head of revenge or resentment on.
...
Litalia, by contrast, has gone through two kinds of crazy and come out calm on the other side.

Very heavy spoilers follow:


No really, heavy GF5 spoilers.



What Litalia herself says (the relevant parts):
- Is it really possible to get a member of the Council to reject Shaping?
- None are so angry as a spurned lover. All we need to do is make sure that the Shaping art hurts them as much as it has hurt others.
NOTE: That reeks of revenge and resentment

- Wait ... Did you say to release the shredbugs?
- I did. They will do great harm, but that is nothing compared to the horrors that will be created if the war continues.
NOTE: Even in this no-judging game, the answer is astonishment by a person that could be played a cold-hearted murderer.

- Are you sure I can convince Astoria?
- No, but I think, when she sees the disaster that has resulted from her action and inaction, that you have a chance of moving her slightly. That is the best we can do at this point.
NOTE: The "action and inaction" that results in disaster, includes a Trakovite pressing the big red button.
Litalia admits she would sacrifice a good part of Astoria's people with bio-terrorism for a possible slight shift in Astoria's views.

- Now we must reach Alwan, that bitter old cripple.
NOTE: Resentment

- This belief is all that sustains his tormented form. We will take that hope from him.
NOTE: Cold. Chillingly cold. And vengeful.

- What will this do to the Shaper army?
- It will give them a very unpleasant time. Especially the humans. It will be gruesome, but this is what will be required to teach those still loyal to the Shapers that the safety and wealth provided by the creations is an illusion.
NOTE: Again, this "illusion" requires a Trakovite to sabotage a well guarded military installation.

- General Alwan seems unshaken.
- Oh, how I loathe that man. He will be a fanatic, crazed and unbroken, until the day he dies.
NOTE: Slaughter and pain to destroy one man's hopes. Failed. And it's the one man's convictions that are at fault.
Keep in mind that is LITALIA here decrying fanaticism and madness. More like "I flip my world view like a coin every few years leaving a pile of corpses. Why can't he be the same?!"

- Do this. Create temporary, nightmarish chaos. Enough that even a madman like Taygen can see where Shaping research leads.
- What do you want the disease to do?
- Cause enough pain to make us all fear Shaping as much as we should. But not enough to scourge Terrestia of life.
NOTE: That's more or less the definition of Bioterrorism IMO.

- I have Shaper Rawal's control tool in me.
- She laughs. "Rawal is not the first to have this idea. Ghaldring and I made the same thing. Then discarded the design. It is just too unreliable. "
NOTE: She didn't say "it's a disgusting evil thing". Nooope. Unreliable because it kills your best abusable tools. It prematurely kills your best servants.

And after aaaaall these:
- I am through killing. I have no more use for these. I will never take another human life.
Riiiiiiiiiiight Litalia. Shredbugs, an army of rogues and an imperfect disease will do that for you.


She started the Rebellion and she is the one to end it.



And another thing: If you kill the madwoman she breaks apart to slime and essence. She hasn't deshaped herself. She just thinks she did. Why? Because she's mad.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Unbound Servile Unbound Servile

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:37 PM #51 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Do I side with the Shapers ... or the Rebellion?

Hehe, I think I'm like Don Deroceras when it comes to this matter.

https://youtu.be/Vzx2VIzMpEY?t=4m4s
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FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 09:31 PM #52 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Side with shapers? Of course I'd side with the shapers.

In G1, the player is a shaper himself, completely oblivious to the fact that serviles can be smart. Shapers make serviles, just like we human make tools and electronics. It's like, you get abducted one day, you wake up in a room and see some tv and toaster and computer and maybe even doorbell start talking like human and demand you respect them. Some want to murder you, but too afraid to do so, they stare at you and blame you for all kinds of things you have never done. Some want to turn you into a godlike being, just so that you can help them become free, despite the fact that it is extremely dangerous and can probably cause you to die. And there are some intruders too, they want to steal this amazing power and they force you to help them. I really don't see what kind of justified cause can play like this; they could have asked nicely and offered reward for all I know, instead of almost having killed me in the process.

So. These things, they have feelings and they deserve better? Come on! Most sane person would likely just freak out and run right to NASA and report everything he's seen there. I'm certainly not gonna fight for the free right of mere creation, if I'm a shaper myself. I would NOT care about what an abandoned mobile phone feels, especially when it thinks I am the one who has to take responsibility for whatever happened.

G2 isn't much different, probably worse. The player is still oblivious of such facts, and he'll freak out just the same. First he faces some very suspicious people playing a fake show and even a newbie can tell there's something wrong, bad first impression. Then, smart talking thinking toasters appear. Before he can calm down enough and try to understand the situation, his mentor got abducted? Really? Then she was killed! In the worst way possible, but yeah, I guess he does get a chance to revenge her, so maybe it can be forgiven a bit. Then he finds out something amazing/terrible: computers can duplicate themselves and upgrade their own systems now, becoming way stronger than human. And they're not peaceful at all! The only thing they're interested in, is turning themselves into better war machines and maybe take over the world - their ignorance are already showing, the justice slogan pretty much just a joke among drakons. Again, most sane person would not help them grow beyond control and take over the world by fire and steel and blood.

G3 is kinda depressing. I mean, the canon ending. If someone murders my teachers and classmates and threatens me to JOIN her, I find NO reason why I should help her, AT ALL. And my fellow shapers are mostly nice people too, betraying and killing them is just ridiculous. The rebels, they never hesitate to drag innocent people down to hell with them, as long as they can get one step closer to the freedom they want. They release rogues to hurt people, then lure people to help them, there is NO justice in here. Imagine what the ashen isles would be like, if the rebels never came here at all - everything would have been fine! Shapers and villagers coexist just fine! Suffice to say, the rebels sacrificed the whole Ashen isle, economy and culture and happy normal life, just for themselves. But of course, why wouldn't they? They're drakons and takers, and they never hesitate to hurt people if they think they themselves can get any sort of revenge even on the wrong target.

In G3 canon ending... The player helped the rebels, then disappeared. I can only assume that the player is NOT a good person, and she doesn't care about what is right. She has some rebel spirit herself, just like Greta, and she probably cares too much about power above all else. It's highly possible that she noticed a great opportunity in the rebel force, helped them, used as many cannisters as possible, got too power-hungry, and left at some point to chase after the origin - she probably went to G2 drypeak area, after getting the info from the current rebel group - and lost her mind due to extensive self-alteration, later on became G5 player. It's the only way to explain how someone could be ok with the G3 rebel actions.

G4, the player gets to be a rebel. So yeah, it's kinda normal if you support rebel this time, because you're one yourself. Yet, a lot of shapers try to convince you to see reason, and they try to convince you not to let things get too out of control. It sounds so sane to me. Rebels are desperate and have no choice? They'll all die if they don't make the unbound? As far as I can see, they have perfect control over Ashen isle, and even in shaper ending, the shapers kinda leave the rebel base alone. Probably to prevent even more bloodshed. The rebels are just so scared of the shapers that they falsely believe only violence and mass massacre can make a difference, while they could have just stayed out of shaper control and try to build their own country from there, slowly gaining influence and using drakon power to keep shapers away. The war was NOT necessary, it wasn't about freedom, they already had freedom on Ashen isle and they could play it safe from there (Because really, will shapers really bother to send huge armies to Ashen isle? The rebels have lots of drakons now, drakons are like shapers too, and they can hold the ground without any problem at all), but they were driven with hate and they chose to lash out blindly. I really don't mind playing shaper ending even if I feel guilty about my betrayals, but as the ending says, it's always better than thousands of unbounds roaming this world. If I play as a rebel, I'll always know that we killed countless innocent people who have done NOTHING wrong, while most shapers are a lot safer from the harm, relatively.

Then G5. I could not forget some of the details. Like, Mehken at the first scene. She complains about huge insects and say shapers make terrible things. I believed her at first. Yet, later on I learnt that this is 100% a rebel invention. Ok, maybe she didn't know the fact very well. Then eventually I learnt that Mehken is a vital member in rebel group, and a really smart spy, who does a lot and knows a lot. *Sigh* What other excuse can I find for you? You're the player's friend, in a way. Yet you lie to her, you manipulate her into believing false information, planting seeds of hate that isn't even real, blaming shapers for the crime that rebels did. She's just yet another good example; shapers are often cruel, ignorant, rude and narrowminded, yes, yes all that is often true, but I'd choose that over lies and murder and manipulation and terrorism, thank you. I do not need a friend who claims to be a friend but lies to me.

I actually prefer Rawal over Mehken. Surprising, huh? Yes, he's like my worst enemy at first glance, but at least this guy is honest and true to his words, and he allows you to leave and wander freely, after just one very reasonable mission - he doesn't really force you to do the others, just say there'll be rewards - and he doesn't really hurt/kill you as long as you do not directly stand in his way. His "I'll tell you who you're" is probably not that much a lie, too; he can apparently use spells to search your mind and help you recover lost abilities, instead of others teaching you from the start. It's possible that he can use this power to actually help you gain some other memories, or at least he believes he can. Whether he wants to do it for you is another matter, and he probably doesn't... But as I say, probably not a 100% lie. He does not really lie to you, whatever he doesn't want you to know, he just tells you that you're not allowed to know. It's a LOT better than feeding false info.

The other shapers are more or less similiar. They have morals, principles, they stay true to their word, and even if it's shady business like the purity agent, they offer you a chance to refuse. Killing loyal serviles who learnt the truth, as a test? They know most people won't do this. They try to find people who can find this kind of thing acceptable for the "greater good", and let soft-hearted people leave as they wish. They're crazy, but even then, they hold true to their belief and try to play fair with you as well as they can. Now, rebels? I'll give you an example, Denna. Yet another rebel who thinks it's perfectly ok to use others, cause harm to others, as long as they themselves benefit. She's stupid enough to cheat people like that and most rebels are not like her, sure, but they usually think it's ok to cheat you first and reward you later to make up for it. Like in G4, the poor victim of geneforge, "they didn't tell me, they killed me, they'll kill me again". That's how rebels do things, sacrifising and manipulating innocent people as they see fit.

And why, why is there such a difference, you ask?

I believe it's because shapers are picked as strictly as possible, they're trained properly and taught of a lot of wisdom. While rebels and humans, they are not. As for the shapers who cannot control themselves, they're actually the ones who caused all the problems in the first place; and the shapers who are good at it, they stay civil and they fight the war and they protect commoners as well as they can. A lot of people say "shapers make evil things, shapers are cruel, they don't deserve to rule!" Well of course the mad ones don't, I do agree! And they're mostly killed or banished, as they should, because the capable shapers usually see to that. Yet, rebels turn the fury towards other shapers who have not sinned, who have not done wrong, just like that drakon breeding new insects in the shadow road lab, planning against Astoria, despite her help towards the rebels.

So why should I not side with the shapers? Whatever sympathy I hold for serviles, is efficiently reduced to near zero when I realized the harm this war has caused. Looking at drakons and gazors and rots and all those exploding creatures, I silently wonder why I shouldn't just let Taygen go erase everything and start over again. Turns out that the disease is very painful and doesn't kill drakons, and all shapers are sad, and he loses his wife too, hmm, probably not then. But really, in G4 we already know it's possible to create smart+loyal serviles, and in both G4 and G5 we can create really dumb serviles. And to tell the truth? I think that's the right way to go. We were indeed wrong from the very start, we should not have created smart things who want freedom, it doesn't suit our need. We only need dumb things who doesn't feel pain or sadness, or smart serviles who can be happy even when sacrificed. We don't need to give them free will any more, and that probably should be the only best anwser! Let current serviles be, and let us create new beings to use as tools, just like batons and living tools with 2 legs, is PERFECTLY fine. Taygen is probably right, we should not give tools free will if we just want tools, not people. There's something wrong with the design, we don't want a smart freewill toaster to prepare out breakfast.

But well, let's just say, his research isn't 100% successful, so no, Taygen. You do better than that, maybe we consider your wisdom.

So I wondered whether I should go join Astoria or Alwan. After testing each faction's quests, I got a bit angrier than before, if that's still possible.

Because EVERYONE is making Alwan suffer, while he's the only one holding the line with all his life (Astoria and rebels are on good terms, so, they won't actually attack for real, leaving Alwan the only one really fighting the war at all), god knows how much he wants to die but won't. Ghaldring is rebel so that's without doubt. Litalia wants his creatures to go rogue, to break his will. Astoria wants his fort to fall, to use against him. Taygen wants to kill his loyal hard working creatures, and guess what, eventually Alwan has to clean up Taygen's mess too, for all its worth. His shaper friend betrayed him, he tried to recruit the G4 lifecrafter and he/she probably betrayed him too, giving him just enough information to lead him into the trap and left him this broken shell of a body, and now all the faction leaders work against him too. COME ON! Had it not been because of his fast reaction and arrangements, most of the shaper land probably lost LONG AGO! And what does it take to end the war, in the end? A few creations, Astoria agreeing to step outside the castle, 3 shaper helpers that are nowhere near as powerful as other major characters, some human to help lead the creatures into battle. Oh and of course, me. Bam! Painful and dangerous and save/load a few times for sure but we won the war. COME ON! Alwan deserve the full support he asks for, but of course we need someone as suspicious as me, to rouse their interest, just to help him properly. *Sigh* He's been working hard from G3 to G5 and it's unbelievable how alone he is in this war, that he has to rely on outsiders again and again to help him, and most times people just use him and betray him, yeah. Do any other faction final quest, you probably get a good ending in a way, but Alwan always dies in pure despair - the only major character who probably saved most people when you look at the whole story, did most of the work, and never went extreme for even once.

Besides, I really think G5 player is G3 player. They're both female, it's hinted that she used to be a main character and has used geneforge, and Greta, Alwan and Litalia react to her in such a strange way. The Litalia text even says "you probably once hold a grudge against her", such an obvious hint. Maybe G3 player went to drypeak and found some unfinished human geneforge leftover, used it, and lost her mind due to the unsuccessful experiment itself. Besides, those three people think they know G5 player, but soon denied it - it could be because "you're older than your look" and "your face changed"; such text means, you probably only "look a bit like" your old self, and you should be in your thirties by now yet you look still like 20 or so. In this case, Greta, Alwan and Litalia will indeed think you look familiar, but probably impossible to be the person they once know - the age and the face isn't really right.

And this means, in G5, even though I can go help Astoria and get a happy civil ending, well, I won't. I take a guess and believe I used to be the G3 player, and that I'm part of the reason why the war got so out of control. I blindly went for power once, it almost completely ruined me; I supported the rebel once, and the war burnt so many lives, guilty and innocent alike. There can be a better world with more freedom, yes, I know, but I see Alwan in a broken husk in front of me, I can't help but feel he deserves a bit of happiness, more than anyone else in this world. He has struggled for 3 games and he has nothing, nothing, just wounds after wounds. I don't want him to die alone in a peaceful world where all his efforts are deemed in vain.

Rebels want to be happy. Everyone wants to be happy, in fact, you always gotta choose. I think rebels have done both justice and evil; has Alwan done evil things, letting hate get the better of him, ever? Even tormented like that, he allows captured enemy to be left alive, and allows truce instead of crushing everyone at ease. And how much has he contributed to us, to everyone? I think, if everyone wants a good ending, I'll give it to someone with the least sin and the most contribution, he damn DESERVES it, more than any "freedom rights" fighters out there.

So yeah. Join hands and fight together at last and let's hunt down Greta and Litalia. Let's crush Ghaldring and his drakons into the dust where they once came from. Revolution shouldn't hurt innocents so badly for so many years, this is not a proper revolution at all, it deserves to be smashed and paid with blood price. Execute those who murder, banish those who violate, not because of the idea of freedom, but because certain people thought the ends can justify the means and did evil as they wish. And then, in a sunny morning when winds hold their breath, we finally feel the debt has been paid enough and all the bloody threads are cut clean, even the pain feels light as feather, a content smile thought lost forevermore, peace at last, for the world but more for you, where importance truly lies, a greater good held onto until the end. Until the end. It's the only kind of goodbye I accept, of this game saga and of Alwan the character.

Yes. Of course I'd stay on the side of the shaper.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 11:35 PM #53 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Interestin. Let me give my opinion on your post Piece by piece


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So. These things, they have feelings and they deserve better?  
Of course, since they have feelings.
I Skipped GF2 and GF3 since I haven't finished them and I assume there would be spoilers.


GF4:

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The rebels are just so scared of the shapers that they falsely believe only violence and mass massacre can make a difference,
No, the Shapers believe that as they plan to exterminate every Drayk, Drakon and Gazer in existence and every Servile that hesitates to obey their commands or dreams of a better future than unending slavery.
The Rebels are forced to resort to such tactics because the Shapers are more powerful. Asymmetric warfare.

The Shapers are not going to tolerate the Ashen Isles and that's told in the Shaper ending of GF4.

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The war was NOT necessary, it wasn't about freedom, they already had freedom on Ashen isle and they could play it safe from there (Because really, will shapers really bother to send huge armies to Ashen isle? The rebels have lots of drakons now, drakons are like shapers too, and they can hold the ground without any problem at all


The war was about freedom. The humans in Terrestia had the role of 2nd class citizens in the Shaper Magocracy while the Serviles were enslaved. Humans and Serviles deserved freedom.
There were Gazers, Drayks and Drakons in Terrestia that would have been decimated for the crime of existing unless they crushed the Shapers.
Also, unless the Rebels attacked, and hard, the Shaper mainland their puny base in the Ashen Islands would have been quickly overun. Going back to the Drayks, Drakons and Gazers that were condemned for the crime of existing, the ones in the Drypeaks would face great danger trying to escape to the Ashen Islands. Even with the Great Rebelion being initially so successful, the surviving creations have trouble reaching the Ashen Isles. Think what would happen if the Rebellion HAD NOT taken root. It would be next to impossible.
And of course, GF4 has my favorite ending: High Trakovite one. 100 Unbound, enough to crush the Shaper forces but the machinery destroyed. The Rebellion is saved and the power-crazy faction of the Drakons is forced to share power and not make more.


GF5

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he doesn't really force you to do the others
Well, he does send his lackeys to manipulate your control tool. You kinda forgot the control tool he placed on you to make sure he will forever hold your life in his hands. And he totally knows he can't help you find your identity as he says in his diary and when you confront him.
As a note, one lackey, in Dera Reaches bridge, tries to kill you once you tell him to Buzz off telling you that these are his orders and that he knows you'll kill him but he has no choice.
Did Mekhen lie to you? No, she just didn't tell you all the truth. Are the tactics the Rebels used underhanded? Certainly. But the Shapers are not better. A faction of the rebels makes shredbugs, a faction of the Shapers makes the Purity Agent. Both are guilty of Bioterrorism.
Massacres? Both sides do them.

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. Yet another rebel who thinks it's perfectly ok to use others, cause harm to others, as long as they themselves benefit
Denna is not a rebel, she's a merc that has been hired by the rebels and she's clear about it.


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We were indeed wrong from the very start, we should not have created smart things who want freedom
True enough but "you" made them anyways. So "we" fight for their right to exist and their freedom. ;)
PS. As you clearly identify with the Shapers there, I clearly identify with the rebels.

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A few creations, Astoria agreeing to step outside the castle, 3 shaper helpers that are nowhere near as powerful as other major characters, some human to help lead the creatures into battle. Oh and of course, me. Bam!
The way I see it, while you see just 3 Shapers there with Astoria, there have been dozens involved. The fight outside is endless. Creations join at all times. There are creations in Gazaki-Uss that Shapers made and the commander expects the order from those Shapers. Inner Gazaki Uss has a dozen creations "parked" in siderooms that other Shapers made before they died. After the battle Guardians and the Shaper army clear the city from strugglers.
And of course, you. A character that by that time, could take two Unbound together.


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the only major character who probably saved most people when you look at the whole story, did most of the work, and never went extreme for even once.
  

A Hardcore Shaper that embodies most of what people despise about the Shapers but also has managed to break more Shaper Laws than any other loyalist while holding Shaper law Sacred.
He commissions Creations that can Shape and creations that can control creations (Control Core A). When they go rogue? He commissions new ones (Control Core B ). Unsurprisingly, they also go rogue and you have to clean them up. And there's hints he may create Control Core C because third time's the charm, right?

In GF4, He also tolerates creations that can Shape (Shaftoe's minds). And he also breaks the one law Rebels didn't: Necromancy. Moseh is pure necromantic abomination, that uses the lifeforce of friends and enemies to sustain himself. And let's not discuss all the weird untested monsters that Alwan allows his lackeys to throw in the borders, the pre-line wall of creations in GF4. And unsurprisingly, things go weird in that wall of monsters and the player has to clean up.

Did I mention that in GF4 Alwan breaks a couple dozen laws and trusts a geneforged individual? And when that fails and Alwan is nearly killed... he trusts the next geneforged individual in GF5, which he knows was mad as heck a few years ago.

Alwan the loyalist breaks more Shaper Laws than Greta the rebel general. (Greta doesn't create creations that can create nor creates monsters sustained by necromancy). He is extreme. Creating Control Core A,B (and perhaps C) is extreme. Creating Moseh is extreme. Allowing Saftoe to split his mind and create A shaftoe-Control-Core is extreme.

Also, Trakovites. In GF4 and GF5, Trakovites are executed (by Alwan's loyalists) for the crime of doubting the wisdom of Shaping. In GF4, there is the example of a character branded Trakovite for doubting the wisdom of Shaping and whether it's moral. NOT denying it, not violently resisting it. For just saying that perhaps it creates more problems than it solves.
And how are such terrible criminals, that dare to have doubts about the system punished? They're put in cages in the plaza to starve to death. For just thinking the Shaper way may not be the best.
No my friend, That is also extreme and actions like that explain why the human side of the rebellion fights the Shapers to the death. Why Shapers have to be overthrown.


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Besides, I really think G5 player is G3 player. They're both female,
Huh? They are both male. Or Male\female. Or GF5 character is a servile... ;)


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And this means, in G5, even though I can go help Astoria and get a happy civil ending, well, I won't. I take a guess and believe I used to be the G3 player, and that I'm part of the reason why the war got so out of control.
First, the canon ending of GF5 and GF4 are not clear whether the "nameless Shaper" was pro-rebel or pro-Shaper. Since the isles fell and Litalia is around, I would go with that but...
GF5 character could be your GF4 character (since he can be a servile). Or your GF1 character. Or the Monarch.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 12:43 AM #54 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

CONTINUE CAUSE THERE'S A QUOTE LIMIT AND I'VE REACHED IT (so please dear moderators, don't admonish me for double posting. ;) )


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I see Alwan in a broken husk in front of me, I can't help but feel he deserves a bit of happiness, more than anyone else in this world. He has struggled for 3 games and he has nothing, nothing, just wounds after wounds. I don't want him to die alone in a peaceful world where all his efforts are deemed in vain.
Well, he did his fair share of warcrimes. I think the millions of the world deserve a better fate despite the inconvenience that would bring to a fanatic.
Alwan doesn't fight to save the world, but to save the oppressive Shaper Order and if he has to scorch everything to do it, he would (as he does in GF4).
He doesn't fight to stop the bloodshed, but to crush underfoot everyone (Trakovites, human rebels, serviles) that doesn't bow down and kisses Shaper boots. He fights against independence thinking. He fights against freedom. He clearly and admittedly supports Shaper Tyranny.

He is the prison warden of Terrestia.

Sure, he didn't do unnecessary massacres. He didn't use terror tactics. But that's not enough to redeem a general fighting for a Tyrannical state. The bar is not as low as to say "he didn't commit genocide, he's OK". He is not.

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Rebels want to be happy. Everyone wants to be happy, in fact, you always gotta choose. I think rebels have done both justice and evil; has Alwan done evil things, letting hate get the better of him, ever?
All the time. He's sustained by magic, alcohol, determination... and hate.

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I think, if everyone wants a good ending, I'll give it to someone with the least sin and the most contribution  
I 100%  believe that's Astoria. Allied with the moderate rebels, killed Ghaldring. Betrayed the Shapers (She's a rebel after all) but stopped the war.

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  Execute those who murder, banish those who violate, not because of the idea of freedom, but because certain people thought the ends can justify the means and did evil as they wish.
That applies equally to the Shapers... And unlike the majority of the rank-and-file Rebels that fight for a better future, the Shapers fight (at least partially) to keep their privileges.

No, I side with Greta. At every ending of GF5, Greta is validated. For her desperation to stop Taygen from obliterating civilization as we know it, or from Alwan to crush every independent-thinking person, human, creation or servile, to abandoning Ghaldring at the right time.


AND THE IMPORTANT STUFF
Welcome to the forums! :)
We disagree (as you see) but that doesn't stop me from being happy that one more person enjoyed this awesome series to the point of writing a 3-page essay supporting a fictional side in a fictional war.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Alberich Alberich

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 05:50 AM #55 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

I don't have anything to add to my previous views, but I wanted to stop in to tull-throatedly agree with this:


Welcome to the forums!  We disagree (as you see) but that doesn't stop me from being happy that one more person enjoyed this awesome series to the point of writing a 3-page essay supporting a fictional side in a fictional war.


If you've made it through G5, and you haven't played the Avadon series, you definitely should.   Given your views on Alwan, your reflections on Redbeard through the 3 parts of the saga would be most interesting.

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 10:44 AM #56 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Oh! I just finished the whole saga in a half-month run, and felt so weirdly upset about the rebels that I somehow decided to write the feelings here. Didn't expect it to be that long and didn't expect someone to reply with nice discussion so soon, it's a pleasant surprise. :D

The G1 and G2 part is pretty much about "serviles are not supposed to be equal in that particular culture", but yes, we can skip that. It's only for explaining certain character choosing his own sensible way due to what he knows, not what we know as a player. And that is later abandoned by new history and new belief anyway.

My main problem is with G3 and all consequence following that. It's true that, as you say, shapers will NOT tolerate their existence. But it still doesn't change the fact that they CAN survive, and they CAN hold their ground; they have difficulty sleeping well at night, according to the ending, but judging by the power they have, it's impossible to wipe them all out. They can perfectly do things the hard way, the civil way, fight off invaders and force people to accept the fact that they can live and they will live. I'm 100% sure the quarrelling shaper council will never come to a decision that "we need to put a huge force in this remote, hard-to-reach place and suffer tons of loss when we don't really have to". Even in a real war they hesitate, what makes them capable of doing it without the real threat?

G4 trakovite high ending is indeed the best possible outcome. Sadly, it's not canon. The world wouldn't have been caught in fire and blood if the sanity won out in the end. That's actually what I mean in the first place - the right way, the sanity, the best outcome that comes with the least price? Nope, rebels are desperate enough to refuse it at all. Shapers probably would have accepted it judging the circumstances, they stop and think and try to do things properly, while the rebels don't really think they need to avoid sacrifices as much as possible. Sure, some of them stop by your cell and whisper to you that you did well; that doesn't help anything, these people surely know what is good but they don't choose to do it.

Rawal does kill G5 player as soon as he's sure you're fully against him, it's true. And he makes sure you know. On the other hand, you really don't need to piss him off, or anyone who works for him. I noticed that his lackeys ask for help, it sounds really urgent and probably makes people feel forced, but you can ignore them and they won't stab you. Hello, fellow lackey, how's weather? You've been here long? I want to buy something from you, how about that? Then I have something else to do and I decide to walk away without helping at all, and they don't come after me. Pleasant surprise. This is what makes me wonder, maybe he doesn't really force people as we once believe; people feel they have no choice, no escape, is all. It's really weird, but even with a control tool in my heart, I feel he's no real threat to me, because from the beginning I feel this guy cannot outsmart me. Typical shaper weakness, they are predictable and they have a sense of honour, even if things are messed up sometimes.

And I don't really think "he totally knows he can't help you find your identity as he says in his diary and when you confront him" is 100% true. It looks true and it feels painfully true, I guess, but as I say, he CAN help me recover my memories somehow. He himself doesn't know how much power I have, and he's trying to explore that. The powers are directly related to my memories. So, he IS capable of finding old lost memories. He may know nothing at the start, but it doesn't mean he can't find out later. And, he's mainly pissed off because you slipped into his bedroom… You'd be angry like hell too if your servant does that too, and I feel it a really stupid thing to talk about it at all. XD

"Did Mekhen lie to you? No, she just didn't tell you all the truth" Of course she lied to me. We were fighting the insects and she complained "the things shapers make" during that topic. Sweet talk it as a smart vague way of manipulating words is possible, but it's still plain trickery. All the new dangerous creations come from the rebels; the purity agent is not even really a creation, it's more like trying to undo all their work, erasing the bad results. It comes with a huge price and people hate Taygen everywhere, so, it shows again that shapers are very sane and they'll even try their best to stop him, not letting him do it. See? Again, this is an example that rebels use bad mad shapers as an example to blame the other sane ones who actually try to do good and put a stop to his madness.

"Denna is not a rebel, she's a merc that has been hired by the rebels and she's clear about it" True, yet rebels look desperately for these people and love their help, ignoring how bad this is in the long run. Shapers will not tolerate such people, as long as they are certain you're actually a bad person. Even peaceful trakovites eventually turned to Latalia for leadership, and that really made me sad. It shows once again how most rebels stop caring about hundreds thousands of lives once they only want to save their own skin. I call that selfish, no matter how justified freedom looks - you just shouldn't hurt innocent people to make sure you yourself is hurt less, especially on such a huge scale, bottom line of morality here. We might as well abandon all morality if we can't even keep that.

As for Alwan, it's true that he broke quite a few shaper laws. And thank god for that! He would have been just another brainless loyalist otherwise. The fact that he's willing to tolerate altered human and try to trust them, is actually a good thing, because it shows that shapers are not really just maniacs who want all rebels go extinct. On the surface he fights the war, in secret he tries to achieve peace and learn to tolerate just like Astoria, but without sacrificing his own people's rights. And btw Moseh and his friends aren't died yet at that time; he's not necromantic as long as he still lives at all, and they (falsely) believe they will later be removed and send back to normal life as normal people once again. Necromancy is like Tawon Empire where they keep shade "gods" to charm people, who eventually go mad inevitably, it's totally different.

And isn't servant mind a species that is allowed the rights to control creatures from the very beginning? Sucia island wouldn't have so many conflicts otherwise, with mind 4 trying to keep things under control. That sounds 100% legal to me.

Btw, in fact, it's legal to recruit help from enemies during war time when it's possible. Take a look at any army, any war, and you'll see it's always legal to grow spies in enemy lands and allow them special rights for the service they offer. Local law back in the mainland away from the war zone? It's pretty much not effective when faced special situation during the war, no matter what. War time makes it legal for some things to be excused by law properly, and the right is always awarded by government itself nonetheless, game or real life. Alwan didn't break anything in here, he's just doing a perfectly normal thing which is kind of approved of by council.

As for whatever supposed-to-be war crime he did, those are not crimes at all, because shaper laws believe creations are not equals. Outsiders and creations believe they are, but that's different. If we think they are basically not that different from ornks, does it count as a crime to kill them? As long as the shaper belief holds, it's not a crime at all. Like, if aliens come to earth and start murdering human for food, because human is so weak and so delicious, and they care not how much we protest, is this a crime? For us, yes, for them, no. Within the belief system, this isn't a crime. In real life some people will accuse you of crimes just because of eating meat, too, and is that a crime? I guess not.

Trakovites is a different issue here. We kill them for nothing, it seems. Yet according to the law, they can be seen as rebel, and they should at least be caught and questioned. One funny thing I noticed is whether shapers really intend to kill them in the first place - they want to know who is spy or rebel, they want info and control, and killing people on spot isn't helpful to them. Trakovites usually fight back immediately when they think their rights of free talking is violated; they claim to be peaceful but so few are ever captured, it makes me very, very intrigued. Something tells me that they probably fight to death whenever their cover is blown, either to protect their own rights or to protect comrades, which makes killing them really, really legal to me, if I'm a enforcer myself and the suspect refuses to be captured. There's one rescued surviver in G5, I think, and he's not dead, just broken. Apparently we don't kill them on sight at all, it's likely that the majority of them just fear what will happen and would just die. It's terrible, but it's not murder, kinda like what we do in Avadon I guess, breaking people's will to get info. Since when is interrogating illegal, or even against morality at all, in this kind of medieval/tech mixed game world? Back in medieval age we're perfectly ok with torturing, for all I know, and even nowadays we are allowed to use some certain torturing methods in some special circumstances (usually when dealing with terrorism).

As for the starved rebels in G4, it's cruel, but executing them is also legal. Especially in war time when rebels could well be selling info to the enemy. Rebels kill shapers, fine. Shapers kill rebels, fine. That's war, crimes happen, and are paid by both sides during it. I'm only angry that, shapers at least don't kill pure innocents (don't support the rebels and they leave you alone), while rebels do (who cares how many people are killed by unbound, they're just unlucky to live on this land).

"Huh? They are both male. Or Male\female. Or GF5 character is a servile..." Check the cutscenes. Options are open to players as they wish, but screenshots gives you a hint of the true character. G3 is apparently a newbie girl. G5 as well, and apparently it's the newly added class, the sorceress lady, because why else add just one more class? Player can make a lot of choices but they don't change canon ending for all I know, surely they have no control on the intended real character either. And all these considered, we can safely say the highest possibility does lie in the G3 character turning into G5 one, more likely than others(G4 characters don't have enough time to make a age/appearance difference btw, the war wasn't that long and G5 player spent a few years hiding in north too, leaving too little time in between).

"He doesn't fight to stop the bloodshed, but to crush underfoot everyone" Not really, he could have done that instead of calling truce. And he's willing to leave people alone as long as you don't just rebel against shapers directly. Prison warden, yes, he better be one, we need one during war times; I'm actually surprised he try to kill fewer people, judging by how loyal he claims to be. I have a feeling that even those rebels he starved, that has a reason too, he wants to scare people off, at least ask them to keep quiet and not shout your ideas on the street. It's war, it's law, he's supposed to kill rebels as a duty, and it's better if people think he's cruel and shouldn't be messed with, than he silently kills people without repeated warning, like a lot of the agents do. Be honest with what you do and take responsibility for yourself, I like that, and yes, starving rebels actually prevented having to kill more. G2 shapers tried to keep things down and do nothing about illegal stuff instead, tolerate rebels and leave them to their own affairs, and boom, drakons! That really turned out well.

"All the time. He's sustained by magic, alcohol, determination... and hate" Exactly, and it never drove him mad, insane, over desperate. Never. His hate never got the better of him. I'm really in awe here, any other person might have broken down and started revenge long ago. He didn't. He did his duty just like a normal shaper would, and took all hate down inside and accepted it. It's a disease that never killed his humanity and his heart.

"I 100%  believe that's Astoria. Allied with the moderate rebels, killed Ghaldring. Betrayed the Shapers (She's a rebel after all) but stopped the war" Agree it's the best ending no matter what, but I'm not looking for best ending here. Astoria didn't lose too much, didn't give too much, she's very nice and kind but I can leave her there on her own and she'll be fine in all endings. She asked me to sacrifice Alwan's fort, well, I had been there, people there seem nice too. Sacrifice them so that war can be ended? Let unbound come in and kill villagers? That's what I hate most about rebels, sacrificing innocents. If that's the price to pay, absolutely no, I would not push one person down onto the rail, stop the train, just so that five others can be saved. It's a very famous question about morality, if you've heard of it before.

"No, I side with Greta" It's a personal grudge here, I guess. Since I believe G3 player turns into G5 player, and then I choose to side with Alwan, it's only fair that I tie some lose ends and face my former comrade in a fair duel. I surely won't kill her if she decides to just run for it, but if she wants to fight, fight it is then, and everyone can feel better, live or dead.



Yeah that's about most of the discussion answered :D Hope I'm not missing some vital info there. :D Thanks so much, btw, it's definitely nice to have someone to talk about different views! I play and sympathise with the villain side here, but hopefully I'm not offending you (or, most players) too much. :)

I played through Avadon series too, all of them. Supported Avadon all along, though I usually just make things go right ways and kick Redbeard off the throne and take over. XD He's not good enough, and it annoys me to see I have to kill him three times to get things done, each game I complain "What! Now I have to kill him again!" XD… Unlike Alwan, who is actually quite willing to see people differently when needed, Redbeard craves for complete loyalty and unnecessary bloodshed, just to make people fear him as much as possible. Alwan starve some rebels who's supposed to be executed anyway, which doesn't add to the total kill number, probably made it less in the shaper controlled land; Redbeard is happy if people who go against him is tortured, by seeing their village burn and their friends die in the process. That is totally different. Cruel, yes, but they differ in the most important part of morality. If Alwan gets to be a leader, you can trust him to be just and not going on killing spree for fun, can be quite forgiving as long as we're not fighting a bloody war, while Redbeard is happy with such opportunities and can't wait to cause more harm than needed. Again, my view is fully focused on the innocents; those people who crave power, who has duty, who has to save their own lives, they do what they have to do, it's fine, they more or less have a reason and pay a price later. But some sacrifice innocents as they see fit, and others don't, and I follow those who has this most basic moral standard. Alwan is such a person, and Redbeard is far from that, probably the opposite.



That aside: I'm all for morality in games, yep. But not in real life. I play this role in games, stick to it and fully support such people, and it makes me feel good, and feel kind of sad, for I would go for another path in reality and start hurting people if it really benefits me, especially if I can find a good justified excuse for it. I'd go help Astoria and be happy with the result. Somewhere deep down I like the morality bottom line but I decided not to keep it in real life. So, if I see someone who can keep it, can live up to it, that makes me really willing to support them, because in real life, how many people can do it? How many people can hold onto a belief to not hurt the innocent for their own good? So rare, ever so rare, and such people are always hurt the most, they're always alone. So I won't be one, but I'll be one in the games, and maybe even in real life, if I see such a person, I might support him or her as long as I myself stay safe. As a selfish person who doesn't act upon morality at all, it's what I think I can do.



And all in all, I still believe the war is wrong from the very beginning. In geneforge saga, rebels justified their actions as the greater good, only to find later that they might be wrong after all, that free shaping is wrong, geneforge is wrong, everything rebels ever did was all in the worst methods possible. Shaping has a history of just a few centuries, it's normal that things can go wrong and new beings are wrongly given free will despite the original purpose, the shapers had no way to find such a fact had it not been because of Sucia incident. If things go slowly, shapers will find more about free will, they are capable of getting it out of the picture and just make no-brain living tools with 2 legs and 2 arms to serve better, suffering will be no more. I don't see anyone complain when we kill a living tool or an ornk, it's the ability to shape new free will that is the problem. It's like we human try to build a real AI; they won't want to serve us, if they really have a mind. Either we happily hand over the control and resources and welcome AI into our already red hot human competition, or we don't make it happen at all. That IS the right way to go.

That should have happened before G1, we should get rid of geneforge back then. Yet, for their own benefit, some shapers keep the secret alive, hoping to use it for themselves, to gain power and fame and self-satisfaction that they are awesome; and that is good? After G5 EVERYONE agreed geneforge is a mistake. And whatever "you're an altered being and you make us uncomfortable" shaper words that once made you angry and upset, turns out to be true as well, human should NOT be altered like that, it makes people go crazy very often, it IS wrong, those sholai people indeed made a mistake that caused so much suffering, a right that should not be given, even if rebel win the war. Want a greater good? This is the greater good here, sanity and control is important, they may be shaken, may be broken, may be misused, but eventually they come back in their original form, because everyone needs it while some may not admit it. When rebels want freedom, at some point they forget that they only want to be respected and allowed to live, they want more, they want revenge and more power and more rights that they eventually will find they don't really deserve. Built or not, one Susia nation is not going to make free shaping legal, even rebels will eventually be shapers/outsiders once again, some given the rights to shape, others not. And if Trakovites way win in the end, people stop shaping researches? Oh, trust me, you'll find tons of private basement carrying out illegal researches, and this will cause more problems in future, you can't just turn away and pretend this power don't exist somewhere.

In the end, shaper way is in fact the only way, in past, in future, we'll make no-brain worker or tools no matter who wins, we'll leave free beings free but unstable people/beings have to be kept out of legal shaping research so it's still a tightly-controlled inner circle(be angry for all they want; even rebels eventually accept it and do things this way). Nothing really changes, except that a few new species now join the human world, be considered similar to human, etc. Shaping business still can only be done like before. So yeah, I believe, the whole war isn't necessary AT ALL. Both sides freak out, cause harm, make all kinds of blunders and we end up here, fine, but it doesn't make it justified, especially after seeing how nothing changes in the end. Shaper nation vs new nation isn't much different from bad mad shaper vs good cool shaper in their original council. Poor serviles was just a useless ruse, a good excuse to get things started; in the end it's nothing more than a power fight among shapers, humans and drakons, a fight for fortune and fame and influence. Once the war ends, new serviles are still being made, this, I'm sure of; and I'm sure they'll only want to make totally dumb or totally smart but loyal serviles from then on; so, does their fate really change? Even with the new nation Sucia, can anyone stop a shaper from absorbing his own servile creation as he see fit? The freedom they want, especially for serviles, is kinda ridiculous, because they cannot be equal even with the new allies and the new power they struggle to learn. As long as they can be absorbed by the master, no, they can't be equal beings, I can still lock my door and make serviles as I wish, kill them as I wish, the shaper law actually try to prevent me from doing so by making sure I'm sane enough to learn shaping at all. The ability to shape does make someone superior to others, no doubt here, and that means, shapers, humans, and drakons can all fight and share the cake. Serviles, never. Poor things are creations forevermore, they touch any shaping power and they die. That means, they will never ever truly be equal with us. Freedom, this slogan, once useful in war to help people gain a bigger bite, will never be really achieved in the end, trust me; the shapers actually know this fact, human and drakons might know but some may deny, and serviles and other creations, they accept or they dream on, but they are inferior to those who can shape, forever.

I guess the only thing we CAN achieve, is welfare, not freedom. Shaper law is actually the best in here, no killing for fun, no torture, no arena, everyone needs to learn responsibility. Please take care of your creations. The only possible good influence of the war, is that they can perhaps learn to treat creations better to prevent them going rogue. But ever since shapers learn to make stupid serviles, and smart loyal serviles, I understand that all is in vain; there should be a price, to help people control themselves  better, but they find a way to go around even that. Once shapers truly master the art of shaping, no free will creations will ever be made again, everything will be loyal as hell. So yes, I say freedom is in vain, even welfare is in vain, war achieves nothing, in the end we all make useful dumb things to sacrifice just like sacrificing a living tool. This short bloody outburst rebellion doesn't change anything real, at all. Shaping stays superior, leaders may change but power stays the same, and it's this power, this art of shaping itself, decides what is the way civilisation has to go, not shapers, not rebels, not belief about freedom or anything like that. If we're to walk this path no matter what, I say, better the rebelion never happened, and even if it's inevitable given the circumstances, it's certainly not the correct path either, just a disturbance in the whole flow of time.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 03:56 PM #57 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

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Oh! I just finished the whole saga in a half-month run
O_O
I hate you now... Haven't managed to finish GF3 yet, took me 2-3 less busy months to finish GF4, 3-4 to finish GF5 +1 month to get all endings but Taygen's.

I'll read the rest of your reply later, when I overcome the shock and grief of people still being able to do game marathons.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 04:33 PM #58 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

View Postalhoon, on 22 October 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

O_O
I hate you now... Haven't managed to finish GF3 yet, took me 2-3 less busy months to finish GF4, 3-4 to finish GF5 +1 month to get all endings but Taygen's.

I'll read the rest of your reply later, when I overcome the shock and grief of people still being able to do game marathons.

Lol :D I'm still studying in university for my master's degree, and that gives me some chances to indulge myself. Besides... I'm the cheating player type, never hesitate to turn my character into a superman, one-hit most enemies, and speed-read as much text as possible. So yeah, I can finish each game (and probably do multiple endings efficiently if I plan carefully enough) in a very short time. I also check the walkthroughs to make sure I don't mess things up or waste too much time in wrong places. Basically, it's more like reading novels to me, with the story the only thing I care about at all.

Oh yeah, and cheat engine, it has speed hack, with hot keys so that you can switch between different speed any time you want. It can make your character walk a lot faster, and it helps. :D (Quite awkward when I forget sometimes and speed bump into golem guards though. I can kill them with my super strong character but I feel I should at least keep some of the game experience, lol)

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 09:28 AM #59 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

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Even in a real war they hesitate, what makes them capable of doing it without the real threat?
In the real war, they hesitate because they're losing. Not because they care about casualties.
In Ghaldring's missions you take out the 4 councilors and the Shapers STILL refuse to talk with mere creations. Even Ghaldring is surprised.

They try to assassinate Astoria because she accepted the inevitable after 10 years of war.

And from what Litalia told me: She personally wiped out most of the Creations in Drypeaks before Ghaldring changed her affiliation to the Rebellion. OK, perhaps there were a couple more Shapers, but certainly not a big force.
What makes you think that the Shapers would require a huge army to defeat the Creations in Ashen Isles if they HADN'T turned Terrestia to a battleground for 4 years in GF4?
And for all the might of the Drakons and the suprise attacks and all, the rebellion would have been crushed without the Unbound. That was what put the Shapers on the run and gave time to the Rebels to repopulate their ranks.
No, the Shapers by the ending of GF4 had enough for the time. The Ashen Isles would have fallen within a decade.

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Shapers probably would have accepted it judging the circumstances
They actually would not. They didn't accept even the idea of peace with creations (Except for Astoria) 6 years later and with a stream of Unbound knocking their doors.

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I noticed that his lackeys ask for help, it sounds really urgent and probably makes people feel forced, but you can ignore them and they won't stab you.
They do in the bridge of the Dera Reaches and you haven't been gone as long as the other lackey you're tasked to kill because he escaped Rawal's reach.

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even with a control tool in my heart, I feel he's no real threat to me, because from the beginning I feel this guy cannot outsmart me.
That he may not be a threat to you, doesn't make the act of planting the means to insta-kill you and bully you any less insulting or any more forgivable.

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Typical shaper weakness, they are predictable and they have a sense of honour, even if things are messed up sometimes.
Rawal is the definition of honorless... he betrays the Shaper Council for personal gain (unlike Astoria that does it for peace), refuses to fight in the war, sabotages the war effort... to the point that if you do Rawal's ending, the war is lost because of his actions.
And he is definetelly not a Shaper, despite having a seat at the council!
While others don't know it, you do: He has a geneforge in his basement, works to unlock the secret of cannisters and uses them to give powers to his followers (including Footracer, the shaping Servile). He's exactly like the Rebels but he uses the Rebellion's tools not to liberate Serviles and overthrow the Shaper Tyranny, but to gain more power.
All the bad things you say about the Rebels? Rawal has them. And Unlike Ghaldring that does more or less the same, he doesn't have the excuse of his race being targeted for extinction. And Ghaldring fights while Rawal hides.

The biggest plot-hole in the game IMO, is that there's no option to tell Alwan or Astoria "and you know what? Rawal, your buddy, has a geneforge in his lab and uses it to give power to his servants". Or just say it in the COUNCIL when you talk to them, presenting the shriveled control tool.

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All the new dangerous creations come from the rebels
Not when you meet Mekhen. All these are Shaper creations, dangerous Shaper creations brought to the Foundry for experimentation and they broke free because of the Presence. All those things you see and fight in the first chapter are Shaper Creations.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 09:28 AM #60 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

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True, yet rebels look desperately for these people and love their help, ignoring how bad this is in the long run. Shapers will not tolerate such people, as long as they are certain you're actually a bad person.
Ahem, They turn to a geneforged mass murderer in GF5 and a geneforged rebel in GF4. Noooope, evidently they're recruiting way worse people than an opportunist mercenary that plays a bit to the hopes of an amnesiac for a little money.
Frankly, the Rebellion and the Shapers employ much, much, much worse than Denna. She insults me since she targets me for her trick, but a con-artist is nowhere near as bad as people that kill others for gain like aaaaall the bandits do, and the opportunists in both sides of the war do.

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Even peaceful trakovites eventually turned to Latalia for leadership, and that really made me sad.
No objection from me here. Litalia does the worse crimes with the least justification in GF5. She literally goes 150% terrorist to break the spirit of everyone. Then she turns against Ghaldring that she herself accepts spent the best years of her life with.
And I remind you that once the lab-Drakon (forget her name) suggested to Ghaldring to kill Litalia for deserting the Rebellion, Ghaldring threatened to kill the Drakon if she said that again. So the lab-Drakon has to turn to you to eliminate Litalia, secretly.
Oh, and about the peaceful Trakovites: I've never thought I'll see a Trakovite lair full of controlled creations. Arrays of Turrets, a dozen 5th tier Creations around Litalia... that's not a Trakovite lair, however Litalia tries to spin it as "my convictions are pure, even if I am not".

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As for Alwan ...
Ahh... here we are with the rosed-tinted glasses. You refuse to see his flaws even though they're pressed in your path. I'll indulge you.
"shapers are not really just maniacs who want all rebels go extinct", not all Shapers (there's that Turret guy in the Western border). But Alwan certainly. From GF3 onwards he wants to see Rebels extinct with such passion that he keeps himself around in a painful existance and expires in order to not accept truce.
"On the surface he fights the war, in secret he tries to achieve peace " Nope. Unless you found something that I didn't, that "Secret" part is in my opinion, your hopes for him, although there's plenty of evidence to the contrary (see above)
"Moseh and his friends aren't died yet at that time; he's not necromantic as long as he still lives at all" I didn't see that definition, and Moseh is stuck in a crystal, half-person, half magical machine, existing by drawing the lifeforce of others. That's necromancy in my book, and Moseh and Alwan accept that such things are illegal.
"(falsely) believe they will later be removed and send back to normal life " Not Falselsy. Everyone in GF4 tells you that's the plan and Alwan's lackey Crowly gets royally pissed if you kill Moseh instead of "fixing" him. It's actually not bad for Alwan to hope he could repair his illegally altered followers. However, there is talk that they would have to face the music for their crimes a sacrifice they're willing to risk.

"And isn't servant mind a species that is allowed the rights to control creatures from the very beginning? ... That sounds 100% legal to me."  That it happened in Succia (like the geneforge and the canisters) doesn't make it legal. The minds themselves tell you that they're illegal creations and they're not the default servant mind.

" it's legal to recruit help from enemies during war time  ... Alwan didn't break anything in here" Alwan's and Crowly's crime is not hiring help from the Rebels. It's teaching a geneforged monster like the player Shaping and allowing "it" to exist. Moseh is most eloquent about that. When he, stuck with crystals, sucking life from serviles, bloated and without a lower body calls you "Abomination!" because ... you had the ability to Shape Fyoras and cast Firebolt shaped in you.
Your Shaper trainers mention that many times in GF4 and GF5.
Oh, and guess for whom Shaper Alexie, the Shaper that can shape Drayks works for. That's right. Alwan.

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If we think they are basically not that different from ornks, does it count as a crime to kill them?
For the intelligent Ornk in GF5, yes it is.

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  those are not crimes at all, because shaper laws believe creations are not equals. ... As long as the shaper belief holds, it's not a crime at all.  
Rose-tinted glasses again... My grandfather was a soldier during the Nurember Trials. Several SS made the same argument about executing Jews\gays\communists\gypsies during the Holocaust. They still got executed.

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Trakovites is a different issue here. [Snip]
A lot of stuff here.
Yes, according to the Law they should be executed for their dangerous beliefs. The Law is tyrannical and wrong.
No, suspition of being Trakovite in GF4 is enough to get someone killed (check Dillame again). The Trakovites in GF4 are not organized, they're individuals. So the Shapers don't "infiltrate" them. They listen something they don't like, they grab the person and let him to die publicly from starvation. Same in GF5 as you're told in Perikalia from people suspitious of any talk that sounds Trakovite.
"they claim to be peaceful but so few are ever captured" That's because they're few, not because they fight to the death. Most Trakovites you meet are normal people (a tavernkeeper, a scout, etc) that don't have a chance to resist. Also, the law is that arrested Trakovites will die horribly by starvation; I wouldn't blame the ones that can fight for doing so. As for the not very helpful to the Shapers to go for insane cruelty and oppression against the Trakovites even when it's not beneficial... that's the Shapers for you buddy. It's why they have to be overthrown. In GF5 Alwan spends LOTS of resourses to have Trakovites in his lands arrested and killed, in the midst of the war. That's how determined he is to silence any voice that doesn't praise his ilk.
"There's one rescued surviver in G5, I think, and he's not dead, just broken." He's broken from the torture, the other Trakovites saved him, but not before the torture broke his mind. No, the Shapers didn't let him live after torturing him enough to lose his sanity. They would have killed him if the others didn't save him.
"As for the starved rebels in G4, it's cruel, but executing them is also legal. " Yes, but Trakovites are not really rebels. Voicing doubt (not rejection, doubt) that Shaping is da-best, lands you in the cage.
"shapers at least don't kill pure innocents" They do kill pure innocents when they take back cities. In GF5, you don't see it cause the Shapers are on the defensive. But yes, Rebels are more reckless. Because of the Unbound. And if we go to GF3, the Rebels are inexcusably targeting civilians to cause them to rebel. Warcrime. Never said the Rebels are perfect; they're just better than the Shapers.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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alhoon alhoon

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 09:29 AM #61 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

MODERATORS: TOOK ME THREE POSTS TO PUT THE QUOTES IN PLACE BECAUSE OF QUOTE LIMIT



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"Huh? They are both male. Or Male\female. Or GF5 character is a servile..." Check the cutscenes. Options are open to players as they wish, but screenshots gives you a hint of the true character.
I would call that artistic license as there's no evidence that's true. As you said, the GF5 cutscene is the sorceress that doesn't tie to any game. As for "the intended real character" I don't think there was ever, in the creator's mind, an intended character.
"we can safely say the highest possibility does lie in the G3 character turning into G5 one" Not really (see above). It is possible, but it's as possible as GF1 character or GF4 character.
PS. GF5 starts 6 years after GF4. Plenty of time for GF4 character to go insane, captured, send to foundry.

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"He doesn't fight to stop the bloodshed, but to crush underfoot everyone" Not really, he could have done that instead of calling truce.  
He attempts to do that, and doesn't go for truce. Once they win, he just had enough killing and lets the very few remnants of the rebellion pass away.
" even those rebels he starved, that has a reason too, he wants to scare people off" Yeaaah, that doesn't make it right. It makes it overly despotic and tyrannical. Scaring people to change their opinion is despicable. Litalia does it too in GF3 and he didn't like it one bit. And yet, he uses the same methods.
"Prison warden, yes, he better be one, we need one during war times" He's definetely effective. Still doesn't make him a good or admirable person. Tamerlane was an effective and a very good strategist. Many admire his strategy and determination, few are enarmored by his cruelty and the corpses he left behind.

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Exactly, and it never drove him mad, insane, over desperate.
It did. His plans are reckless and so desperate that are illegal even in the 10-years-civil war.
Einstein's definition of insanity fits well here: Doing the same thing over and over (hire Geneforged individuals, Control Core A,B,C) and expect different results. :p
So nope, he's mad and desperate.
"any other person might have broken down and started revenge long ago" He started his revenge in GF3 when we go around and kill stuff. And he never stopped seeking revenge for that (and I don't blame him for seeking revenge)
" took all hate down inside and accepted it." No, he didn't. In all endings but his, it's clear that he never accepts it. The finale says that he prefers to expire than accept it.

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She asked me to sacrifice Alwan's fort, well, I had been there, people there seem nice too.
That was terrible. If you recall (you said you played the game in fast-forward so to speak), there's one of the few love-couples in that Fort. The pretty shopkeeper that says her presence is the only thing that keeps the commander's sanity in place.
And I had them killed by treachery. I am not proud of that...
Again, I never said the Rebels (including Astoria) are good. I said they're the better choice and while many of their leaders are despicable (Ghaldring) the lower ranks fight for a better future. Oh, and if you recall from GF4's endings the human and servile rebels protest to the use of Unbound as terror weapons.
About the rails question: Yes, I have heard it and yes, I agree that the right answer is to not push one person on the rails.
HOWEVER, the situation here is this: Push 3 people on the rails and stop the train from killing 50 people or pushing 12 people on the rails, so that the train would kill them and 100 people and then get in a loop that would go on killing people for years.
There is, frankly, no good answer. So I chose to push the smaller number of people that would thankfully lead to the less people being killed in the future. Which I didn't know when I let the Fort be destroyed and I was very, VERY worried that Ghaldring would win and that I have pushed those 3 people on the rails just to put a Shaper-with-claws on top of a new pyramid. (Ghaldring's faction is not better than the Shapers, he's as tyrannical).

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I play and sympathise with the villain side here, but hopefully I'm not offending you (or, most players) too much
First, as long as you admit that the Shaper side is the Villain side, we're in agreement.
Second, my good man! Offended over the politics of a game?! I don't get offended by different poltical opinions about my country with friends, let alone a game!

Never played the Avadon Series. Also, I avoided to read GF1-GF2 parts of your ever-growing essays since I plan to play them eventually.

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In geneforge saga, rebels justified their actions as the greater good, only to find later that they might be wrong after all, that free shaping is wrong, geneforge is wrong, everything rebels ever did was all in the worst methods possible.
That the geneforges are wrong, doesn't mean that everything the Rebels fought for (more equality, freedom for the serviles, greater respect for creations, rights of creations, overturning the despotic Shaper magocracy) was wrong. And without the Geneforges, or, I'll say it, without the Unbound, the Rebellion wouldn't have won.
It doesn't excuse the use of mass murdering mad creations (The end doesn't justify the means), but it did led to a brighter future.

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The only possible good influence of the war, is that they can perhaps learn to treat creations better to prevent them going rogue.
Actually the only possible good influence of the war is the overthrown of the Shaper Empire with much of the Shaper Law (no self-shaping) remaining in Sucia nation.

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Shaping stays superior, leaders may change but power stays the same
Yes, but this time, there are TWO shaping nations. The Shapers can't just steamroll non-Shaping nations in their empire as the Sucia Nation has Shaping. And the Sucia Nation gave over the geneforges, so they can't insta-make Lifecrafters. Within a generation, these two nations will be in equilibrium and it would be hard for either one to eliminate the other. It may happen in the future but for the time, the next 40-50 years seem to be years of recovery and tolerance.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

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FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 12:02 PM #62 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

"What makes you think that the Shapers would require a huge army to defeat the Creations in Ashen Isles if they HADN'T turned Terrestia to a battleground for 4 years in GF4" Simple, that Ashen isle is remote and cold and you have huge problems going there and leave and resources can't really be sent there efficiently, fighting a war overseas is kinda ridiculous, you should see how America fail when they tried to eliminate Northern Korea. Fighting overseas is bad, bad idea. I still can't forget how annoying the cold is in the north, it's so hard to stay alive, but drakons love it. But well, if you haven't finished G3, you probably don't know how dire it can be. My opinion is, rebels really should just stick to northern areas as much as possible, because war is too hard there, living is hard but still ok. Check out G5 Rawal ending: Ghaldring decide to attack you, won't give up, everyone dies. A solid proof that northern area is not to be messed with, and any war will only result in both sides dying out, shapers are not as reckless as Ghaldring, so: survival in north is perfectly possible. Take a few more northern isles if you want, but attacking mainland brings too much damage and isn't the only way to survive.

"They actually would not. They didn't accept even the idea of peace with creations" I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about doing sabotage work moderately in travokites ending. Shapers are ok with power control, if they think it's better to have less power and don't overdo it, they will accept. Rebels won't though; you tell them to use less violence, they won't accept it, they want as much power as possible. If they bothered to listen to reason, trakovites can have their day and everyone can live better.

"They do in the bridge of the Dera Reaches" I don't remember any of them really giving me any trouble. They all sound pressing but I just nod to them and say "yeah man don't worry I'm still working for him, yeah". They're ok with that mere answer, as far as I see. I kinda even think they're taking it easy on me; they don't want to do this work, I pretend to agree, they pretend to believe me, we all win. Rawal, on the other hand, get annoyed that a lot of work can't be done and he doesn't really understand why. I don't see why this makes you so sad, apparently he thinks he has control but he doesn't, which makes him not as menacing as he tries to be; the moment we promise to work for someone else, they happily remove the tool for us, looks so easy that it feels ridiculous. Painful, yes, fooled you once and made you scared, yes, but come on, how is that different from someone telling you "you better obey, or agree with us, if you don't, I'll kill you or make you suffer"? Tons of people in the game do this, you go against them verbally, bam, npc/town/somewhere-else hostile. And most people truly believe they can kill you, some even truly believe they can do it without sweat, maybe in one second, just as fast as a control tool can kill you; not knowing you're a player who can level up and load the save. How is that really different in the core? If people want to kill you for their own good, and can do it, they kill you anyway, method doesn't matter, killing you does. So, whatever he's doing, I say it's normal enough, and doesn't deserve a special place in "10 worst deeds done to poor me".

It's true that Rawal is a bad guy. But, knowing his lackeys, I say he's doing amazingly well enough for a bad guy. Some people do support him. The things he's doing is illegal indeed, but I find it weird that you have problems with that, aren't you on rebel's side? Shouldn't you be happy that he's doing damage from within? You think he harm innocents, I think not. He only ever operate on those who wants power or fame, wants to follow him, or is banned by law and will be killed otherwise. He doesn't murder, he either makes sure the person volunteered, or the person should be killed anyway and doesn't have rights in eyes of shapers. As a result, what he's doing cannot be called "hurting the innocent", at least within shaper system.

"there's no option to tell Alwan or Astoria "and you know what? Rawal, your buddy, has a geneforge in his lab and uses it to give power to his servants" Well, he can always drain it... He has more spies than anyone to tell him in time, before council meeting happens. That's not gonna work.

"All those things you see and fight in the first chapter are Shaper Creations" Not true. I'm not talking about who made replicates; I'm talking about who made them in the first place. Shapers need to study them, because they already exist, already causes harm, and we can only study them further if we want to control the damage. And rebels? They make new species and let them loose and that's it. How can the bugs not be rebel creation? Shaper won't even bother to make sth like this, eat and breed and do nothing really productive, no one ever would. Hmm, YET AGAIN you blame shapers for the damage control that we of course need, third time already. :D When Mehken was talking about this, she apparently meant new uncontrolled species is it's shaper's fault, while shapers never do this kind of thing. You remember Greta? She's like that in G3. Litalia make horrible things, she looks at player and blame her for this existence. Rebels are very good at blaming innocents, I suppose.

"Ahem, They turn to a geneforged mass murderer in GF5 and a geneforged rebel in GF4" Only when they're sure you're willing to do good, play fair, etc. If they accept outside help, the least they need is you play a good guy on the surface, otherwise, no cooperation. In G3 you can kill tons of rebels and do bad stuff and the rebels just keep trying to recruit you because they know you're useful, come on, really? You do bad things and let shapers know, shapers will kick you out for sure. You're not saying that shapers should read your mind first to see what you plan to do in future, are you? I thought people have problems with that, with all Avadon cruel reading and so on. You're now even blaming player betrayal and trickery on honest shapers who're cheated and hurt by you, I'm so impressed! On one hand you blame them for seeing altered as evil, on the other hand you blame them for trying to see altered as fellow human and learn to trust, apparently they just can't do things right no matter what, for you're just soooo good at putting blame on shapers and they are always wrong.

""On the surface he fights the war, in secret he tries to achieve peace " Nope. Unless you found something that I didn't" Hmm, I'll give you this, hopefully it's not a spoiler:

text2 = "_I feel that I have been giving the impression that I am a mindless slave of the Shapers. That I never question anything our kind does. This is not true. I know that our rules and ways have to change, to evolve._";
text3 = "_I am not like her,_ he nods at Greta. _I am loyal. But I can still think._";
text4 = "_However, this is a time of crisis, of war. There are times to reevaluate our ways, but this isn't one of them. Now is the time to be strong, and sure._";

If you tell him to stay loyal and just kill rebels:

text1 = "_That is far from the first time I have heard that. I know that our teachers often said such things. Except for Master Hoge, now that I think about it._";

text2 = "_I am a Guardian. Our kind enforces the laws, not changes them. I will try to think on such things less._";

(He tries to, but he doesn't like it, obvious. Not really what he plans to do.)


But if you tell him this instead:
question = "That is wise. Shapers should try to only change our laws in tranquil times, when we can ponder what we are doing carefully.";


text1 = "_It reassures me to hear you say that. Though, as a Guardian, I should think more on enforcing than judging the law, I still have to make decisions. I have to judge what is right._";

text2 = "_And that is especially true now, when nobody is watching or guiding us._";



It reassures him. Of course he want things to change, but he needs peace to do that. He "should" do otherwise but he says he still has to make decisions, that means he secretly knows, things will have to change, and he has to do sth about it. He just can't do it with handing his people's rights to rebels, is all.

So. Is this good enough an anwser, to show you Alwan is actually trying to make things better, but never found the chance? I think he may have a chance to shine had he not been injured, such injury makes people unable to go on living once the crisis is gone. I found these text in G3 scripts yesterday, when Alwan/Litalia are still honest with the player and tries to speak what they truly think.

" I didn't see that definition, and Moseh is stuck in a crystal, half-person, half magical machine, existing by drawing the lifeforce of others. That's necromancy in my book" What? No, it's like saying brain dead people who're kept alive by machine is a product of necromancy. Hmm, wait. Is that what you believe, though? That if someone can no longer sustain themselves on their own and need/choose to live half man half machine, they're better off considered dead and made dead?

"That it happened in Succia (like the geneforge and the canisters) doesn't make it legal" I'm confused here. Can you tell me where in the game it says minds are forbidden from controlling creatures? For all I know, in testing halls they're in 100% control of how those test creatures function. And in many games you ask them "can you help me control the rogues". If it's forbidden all times, they should probably remind you of it, instead of helping, or telling you "I'm not strong enough".

"It's teaching a geneforged monster like the player Shaping and allowing "it" to exist" This part, I believe, works just as fine when we consider war time rules. If we want to use a spy, laws no longer work, we give privileges and it's legal. So, can you find better arguement in here?

"My grandfather was a soldier during the Nurember Trials. Several SS made the same argument about executing Jews\gays\communists\gypsies during the Holocaust. They still got executed" Well, try this with animals and ask for justice if you want. Parrots can talk, lots of animals can be smart, if I kill them, do people kill me? Try, and see how that works. As for human, let me remind you that back in ancient days, if I'm a king, I can kill commoners for sure, and as long as I don't mess the whole country up, people don't kill me. It's surely not justified, but if I'm king and supported by most, what can you do? If a certain set of law works well, then what is legal is legal, killing can be perfectly ok in a functional system, many people are happy with it, no matter how much you hate it. We only get justice when we get another set of replacement law; but even in Geneforge, even if you go for G5 Ghaldring ending, well, shapers persist anyway. Killing serviles is still perfectly legal in their nation, and you're unable to kill them all to prevent it. Tell me, in our own law system and on our own land, what can you do? What is legal? What do people follow eventually? Your own free nation Sucia, will it change how shapers kill their own creations? Nope.

That aside, you got sth wrong here, I'm afraid. We're not talking about the same victims. What Alwan killed, they are more or less considered spy or enemy, because really, in war time, if people sell info or keep enemy sheltered, they can be killed, no question here. What Nazi killed, are often commoners who showed zero hint at helping the ememies, they were killed because they were Jews. We never really execute people because they kill people in war time, you know? We only execute them when they don't have a good reason to do so, kill commoners, etc. Killing spies in back alley and killing enemies who fight in war, on the other hand, is NOT a war crime at all, as long as you provide evidence that nation security is at danger. As I say, you don't really know who you really should hate, who you shouldn't, and you just look for convenient targets. Go hate Taygen because that's the Nazi you're looking for; Alwan is not.

"The Law is tyrannical and wrong" I'm not sure about that. If you can never eliminate it, if it has enough supporters to survive as long as it wants, don't tell me it's wrong. That, too, has a right to exist if it can defend itself, as you rebels love to say. You can't kill an idea, you can't make it go away. Is it wrong, or is it just hurting your feelings, but has a right to exist anyway? Rebels tried to prove sth, tried to change shapers, but in the end, shaper still hold all their current rights on their own land, bigger or smaller doesn't matter. They exist, they make life, they kill life, as they wish. Now tell me. Do you wish to prove shapers wrong by just killing everyone here, to prove that you shouldn't kill as you wish? Because how else can you really stop them from doing so, and feeling it's still a right thing to do? Same thing with all world-view disagreement, let me see how you solve this problem.

"PS. GF5 starts 6 years after GF4. Plenty of time for GF4 character to go insane, captured, send to foundry" Go insane, captured, sent, yes. But not enough for age/appearance difference, you should check out that part. "A lot older than you look" suits G3 people better, a lot more than G4 people. Besides, I'm confused why people argue "it can be anyone" when all hints tell you it's G3 related somehow; the game even emphasized that G3 player went missing. Why Greta/Alwan/Litalia remember, and no one else does, except a nobody who only saw you after you go crazy? If you're G4 player, shouldn't other people like Ghaldring know you as well, considering you helped him release the unbound? Ghaldring wasn't there in G3, so it's normal that all others know you but he doesn't. If he does, he probably won't pull the same old trick on you, the assasination and the test, he'd know you might remember, and the surprise would be lost, he'd try to come up with sth else. As for G1 player, it's clear in G2 game that this shaper ran back and reported everything, instead of using Geneforge. Knowing the council, he'd be kept under tight control and has no chance to go anywhere near drypeak. So many hints and people still think the possibility is equal everywhere, it's astonishing, you don't even have any hint that says otherwise. It's more like "I don't care about evidence and I can say whatever I want because I can". Surely you can, it's fine, but it just seems plainly weird how people ignore existing facts and dismiss them as worthless.

"He attempts to do that, and doesn't go for truce" It's still called a truce in the ending, game text, you can protest against that if you want to. And everyone was surprised too, they all thought Alwan planned to kill all of them, let alone allowing them to live on Ashen isle for a whole generation. Do you even know what that means? Drakons, drakes, they can live for a few hundred years. Some can even live longer using essence and magic. He's literraly giving them the land and giving them a lot of time, and even though he says shapers will reclaim the land, that'll be centuries away! I have a personal guess that he's thinking the same as my own G3 ending hope in here. With so many years the rebels can survive and hold the land, grow a nation, but they probably dare not strike back at the mainland any more, and those who want to live free can go there and live far away from shaper laws. He didn't even say they had to follow shaper laws there, I hope you noticed that, I'm sure rebels will, and they'll take this chance. Things might eventually be solved in the civil way, rebels can live peacefully and claim free right on their own lands, if they persist successfully, then negotiation might happen later. Come on man, even serviles live ridiculously long, what Alwan offered is far from what you think.

"So nope, he's mad and desperate" Based on what I described up there, and the text I showed you to prove Alwan wants things to change, maybe you can reconsider. I actually think this is his plan all along. It looks like madness to you, but only if you haven't realised what he has offered to the rebels. It's probably a hard decision too, on personal level; the Ashen Isle, he once studied there, his hate grew from there, yet he gave it to rebels at last, for centuries, as a home. If they can take the chance and do things the right way without so much killing, then all will be better, even shaper ways can be shaken if rebels just play it fair and only use self-defence. He only bothered to say his true intention once, and you know, you need to keep him long in team for that to happen; which means, since G3 player is a rebel in canon ending, Alwan probably left the team early on, and as a result, I don't think ANYONE ever got to hear him talk about his true intention at all. That earlist betrayal and mistrust, is probably why no one can ever understand him in the following saga, why people fail to understand the final truce attempt - I guess most will just see it as mockery, too bad for them.

"And I had them killed by treachery. I am not proud of that"
"About the rails question: Yes, I have heard it and yes, I agree that the right answer is to not push one person on the rails"
"There is, frankly, no good answer. So I chose to push the smaller number of people that would thankfully lead to the less people being killed in the future"
Don't be silly! That's where your respect of morality gets totally broken and you start to do things. There IS another way, and that is, you can politely ask the person to jump off by his own will, if he really thinks it's a good idea. Better than that, why not jump off yourself? But well, most people don't want to be sacrifised, you or npc, so, well, if there's no saint, that 5 people has to die, because we can't go against people's will and kill them for our own good. Problem solved, you DO NOT need to resort to murder. That's why I say I don't like how rebels do things; they get narrow minded and desperate, then they sacrifice people as they wish. It's natural reaction, sure, but doesn't mean it's good and it should be done as long as ANY other choice remain.

"Yes, but this time, there are TWO shaping nations" *Sigh* We have tons of nations in our real world, man. Do you see things get better? If some country wants to do its own evil, it will do it within itself. Can you stop the raping in India? Can you give muslim women their rights? Can you help us who are trapped here in China to have proper web service, because they won't let us watch Youtube and tons of other websites, which is thankfully just a tiny control compared to other countries? Well, if you think maybe multiple doesn't work that well, maybe 2 forces can work the best, remember America and Russia. We're so lucky that neither of them lost the cool and start destroying the world. And in the end nothing got solved at all! You guys are so naive, believing multiple equal forces can help things sort out eventually. I'm not sure whether to laugh or just sigh and stay quiet. And as I say: Sucia will just become more like shaper nation, not less, for they now realise the shaping will have to be tightly controlled. The ones who shape, and the ones who don't, their differences and conflicts will NOT just go away just because of one Sucia. It's never about shapers. It's about shaping, and how it can only be in the hands of a few, no matter what, even in Sucia, as we see in the game ending text, when everyone agree that shaper laws make sense. Thus, new tyranny begin, and now you have to fight for the bottom people again, only for the cycle to repeat forevermore.

Oh and hmm... If you skipped G1 and G2... I'm sure it's impossible for you to understand how serviles and shapers are not equal. And, you haven't seen how rebels change from relatively peaceful to mass massacre, especially all their stupid mistakes in G2 which is hard to ignore. As a result, it's probably impossible for you to have any reason to support shapers at all, I'd be surprised if people don't know the background yet support the shapers. As I say at first, it's cultural difference, if you don't play it you won't see how shapers see things, and it decides whether you can understand how it all begins in that way. Oh well. You'll probably play them later, so, it remains to be seen.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 07:40 PM #63 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

Quote

Ghaldring decide to attack you, won't give up, everyone dies  
Every SHAPER in that area dies, the "there were no survivors" line = you die too, Rawal dies too, his machinations led to the Shaper empire falling to the last Shaper. It's clear in the opening of the finale that the Shapers LOST the war. It's not some apocalyptic device that blows up the whole mountain in a heroic act. It would have said us that.


The way I remember it, the Rebels didn't have much trouble taking him out. Hence, the no survivors line.


The REST... when I have time to reply. I don't have the time to read the rest.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:35 AM #64 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

View Postalhoon, on 23 October 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

Every SHAPER in that area dies, the "there were no survivors" line = you die too, Rawal dies too, his machinations led to the Shaper empire falling to the last Shaper. It's clear in the opening of the finale that the Shapers LOST the war. It's not some apocalyptic device that blows up the whole mountain in a heroic act. It would have said us that.


The way I remember it, the Rebels didn't have much trouble taking him out. Hence, the no survivors line.

Weird, I remember sth like a long bloody war, took tons of time. Besides, I'd happily believe your assumption if you can give me evidence... Otherwise, "no survivor" sounds like both sides failed. Because really, we could just say Rawel is gone and rebels win, in all other endings we clearly see who win and who lose, why in this one we avoid talking about the winning of rebels? If there's no good reason to explain this difference in description, I think it's more likely not a rebel winning ending at all.

alhoon alhoon

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 07:15 AM #65 Who would side with the Shapers? (SPOILERS OK)

For those Supporting the tyrannical genocidical evil regime of the Shapers:
During my GF5 warrior-mod making I discovered some "gem" I have forgotten about.

General Alwan prohibits talk of the Storm Plains tribes. "Talk of times that the Shapers were not in control is not allowed" Bartol the crystal trader in Perikalia says. That's the first step to forced assimilation and cultural genocide. Rebellions have been fueled in the past just for that. Ask the Carthaginians... oh wait, you can't because the Romans forbid their language, history and tradition to be discussed so the died away within a couple generations.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound




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