Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now?

[Suspicious Vlish]

It's laughable that some posters contend that the Shapers are more ethical than the Drakons, because they refuse to release uncontrollable, powerful rogues, which tend to kill indiscriminately.

 

But what do we see in the Rebel ending? The Shapers doing exactly that!

 

So this pretty much amounts to:

 

- When the Shapers are winning a war and pretty much ripping the Rebellion to shreds, they condemn the Drakons 'dirty tactics'.

 

- However, when the Shapers are getting an ass whipping, they turn around and use the exact same tactics.

 

Which just proves that the Shapers do NOT have the moral highground. When they are in the exact same position that the Rebels have experienced since GF 2 (ergo. They are the defensive underdogs), they act in exactly the same way. "What, we lack the numbers to fight the enemy. No probs, just throw up a couple of spawners, and make rogue, powerful creations!"

 

Hypocrites. At least the Drakons are honest about who they are, what they are doing, and what they are fighting for.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

One instance that always comes to mind when I question Shaper ethics would be the situation in the Valeya Ruins. Guardian Kantor, despite his mission to undermine the Rebellion, decided to stay and protect the town and it's inhabitants instead. This is one of the most chivalric acts done by anyone in the war.

 

As for the rebel ending, I don't think the Shapers are as much at fault as the Rebellion. The Shapers don't want to release crazy creations at first because they are worried about killing innocents. The drakons do not care, and so the Unbound kill them anyway. I don't think the Shapers were wrong to make mad creations of their own at that point because most of the people they were trying to protect were dead by then anyway. How can you say they are equally at fault?

[Randomizer]

Shapers are just shifitng tactics. The creation of independent minded serviles that will willingly kill themselves upon command is just one example. They may be willing to negotiate will Rebels to win the war, but some like Shaper Grim are still old school about their thinking. It's more a case of situational ethics than becoming more ethical.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Random:

 

Quote:

Shapers are just shifitng tactics...

 

It's more a case of situational ethics than becoming more ethical.

 

Precisely!

 

Up until the end of GF4, veterans have pointed out that Shapers have the moral highground, since they 'refuse' to use uncontrollable, powerful, rogue creations in order to fight the Rebellion.

 

However, upon viewing the 'Rebel' end for GF4, it becomes apparent that the Shaper regime does not do such things out of the 'good of their hearts'. When they are finally on the back foot, they are willing to use any means necessary to fight the Rebellion. Sound familiar?

 

Hence, we have encountered exactly why it is fallicious to condemn that the Drakons hold the moral lowground. Of course the Drakons will use more desperate measure than the Shapers, because they are in a more desperate situation.

 

I have pointed out time and time again on this forum that the methods used by the Rebellion are not 'mad', they are actually quite sensible. Asymmetrical warfare has been used since the dawn of time to cripple stronger invaders. It has nothing to do with which side is more 'ethical'. What is important is whether such a method will work.

 

Emp:

Quote:

The Shapers don't want to release crazy creations at first because they are worried about killing innocents.

You keep forgetting that the Shapers [/b]don't need[/b] to release uncontrollable creations prior to the creation of the Unbound. The Shapers have crushed the Rebels in every major battle in the past two years. They have superior manpower, firepower, training and organization.

 

If the Shapers have the Rebels on the back foot, why exactly would they need to release uncontrollable creations? Wouldn't it just make more sense to wipe out the Rebellion directly, instead of having to clean up the 'mess' you create?

 

It's analogous to dropping an atomic bomb. Practically, precision strikes should generally be used in preference to atomic strikes, so that the land does become uninhabitable afterwards. It only makes sense to use atomic bombs as a [/b]last resort[/b], when you are desperate and near defeat.

 

Quote:

The drakons do not care,

Do not care? While I'm sure that the Drakons don't cry themselves to sleep at night over the innocent deaths caused by the Unbound, they also express that they feel that innocent deaths are undesirable and inconvenient.

 

It's a pity that some innocents in Terrestria will die. However, they only have the Shapers to blame. The Rebellion exists because of the Shapers, and the Rebellion released the Unbound in response to Shaper aggression. If the Shapers had have dealt more diplomatically with the free creations and humans, then such horror could have been averted.

 

What really confuses me is the way which you decry the death of 'innocents', but not the targeted genocide of Drakons and Drayks. What makes the life of a Drakon or Drayk less precious than that of a human?

 

Drakons, Drayks, and independent serviles are sapient beings, and they are being targeted for extermination for merely existing! That is their only crime... to exist! What the Shapers are doing is the equivalent of what the Nazis done to the Jews.

 

Why aren't you outraged? Why do you harp on about the death of 'innocents' (many who assist the oppressive Shaper regime), but turn a blind eye to the genocide practiced by the Shapers? IMHO, that's hypocritical.

 

Quote:

I don't think the Shapers were wrong to make mad creations of their own at that point

Because they were losing?

 

Quote:

because most of the people they were trying to protect were dead by then anyway.

That's a pretty miserable excuse. For the Shapers to release their own mad creations just makes the situation worse, and shows no real concern for their own citizens.

 

"Sir, an army is marching through our frontiers, and tearing the place apart!"

 

"OK, drop an atomic bomb on them!"

 

Such concern for the civilians!

 

I think it's time that you realize that the majority of Shapers don't genuinely care about their citizens. The Shapers only care about staying in power. Everyone who has power is afraid to lose it. That includes the Drakons, Geneforged humans, serviles, drayks, and Shapers.

 

Quote:

How can you say they are equally at fault?

They aren't. The Shapers are far worse. If they hadn't decided to engage in genocide, then the resistance wouldn't have had to retaliate.

[Questionmarks.]

Shapersss Die anyway in the end,so why does it matter? who caresss?

[Gabriel]

Shapers have a fixation for making living things for any task or object. When it doesn't work out it horrifies them.

 

In the real world, it would horrify us equaly if robotic death drones were turned against us. Or, if our computer monitors were wired to double as a gamma-ray gun, just sit there one moment then zap!

[-silver-]

It's possible that Drakons are just as ethical - they do claim that they will absorb the Unbound and make saner creations once they're no longer in danger of being genocided. We just don't know because we haven't seen the Drakons in power (yet?).

 

But, more likely, it probably comes down to some Drakons being ethical and some evil, just like the Shapers. All down to the individuals. I seem to recall JV's own hints for the game saying, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good."

[Suspicious Vlish]

I fail to see how the Drakons could keep the Unbound around 'indefinitely'. They are difficult for even the Drakons to control. The longer they are around, the more likely it is that they will turn on their masters.

 

So, it's not only ethical, but also intelligent and practical, to depose of the Unbound when they have done their jobs.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Using a creation to accomplish a goal and then absorbing it. It's what the Rebellion is all about. Wait... what? The Rebellion is supposed to be about treating all creations equally, isn't it? Well, at least the drakons would never do what the Shapers did to them and attempt to genocide a race. Wait, they're planning on doing what to the unbound?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Emp:

 

Are you attempting to compare the Unbound to the serviles, humans, drayks and drakons? From what I'v seen, such a comparison is inappropriate, as the Unbound definitely lack sapience, and it's questionable as to whether they are even sentient.

 

I find the Unbound analogous to the terminators from 'The Terminator' series. To call the reabsorbing of the Unbound 'genocide' is stretching it a little, and is pretty much the equivalent of labelling the culling of free farm chickens 'genocide' and a 'Holocaust'. The term 'Genocide' is only appropriate for people (aka. sapient beings).

 

If, after the Shapers have been destroyed, the Unbound demonstrate themselves to be sapient creatures, with traits such as language, introspection, self-awareness, a social structure, culture... etc. (all of which are observed in humans/serviles/drayks/Drakons/Eyebeasts), I would be up in arms demanded their right to life (unless they started attacking everyone willy nilly, that is. In that case, reabsorbing the Unbound would be in self-defense).

 

And if they were sapient, and fought the Drakons to prevent their reabsorption, I'd be sympathetic to the Unbound cause.

 

If the Unbound demonstrate themselves to be sentient creatures (aka. the mental equivalent of a cow or a rat), I would not be averse to the Drakons absorbing them once their job was done, if it was necessary (eg. the Unbound are too dangerous and unpredictable). However, if they are able to feel pain, I would rather that the Drakons not inflict needless cruelty.

 

Despite their flaws, Drakons don't seem to delight in inflicting needless cruelty (in fact, the Drakon guarding the gates to Quess-Esss makes it clear that she will kill you quickly and cleanly). The torturer in GF2 for the Takers was a Gazer, who seemed to be a rather sadistic fellow.

 

If the Unbound are neither sapient or sentient, then the Drakons are free to do whatever they want. Kllling machines don't feel or think.

 

I'd be inclined to place Unbound in the 'sentient, but not sapient' category, at about the level a Turret/Pylon. They are able to identify enemies and react to negative stimuli, and are experts at killing, but they aren't capable of much else. A civilization of Unbound is about as likely as a civilization of Pylons.

[Gabriel]

The Unbound will be given intelligence. They aren't going to be absorbed, well except for the mad ones. I think the Shapers once went through a time when they were like the Rebels. Until a few disasters made them restrictive/paranoid of mishandling the art of shaping.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
Drakons, Drayks, and independent serviles are sapient beings, and they are being targeted for extermination for merely existing! That is their only crime... to exist!

Yes, and let's not forget the innocent gazers/eyebeasts. Poor misunderstood fellows. :[

[Dark Mage]

Why so many debate? After all only our god Jeff can know what is right for the geneforge world. Praise JEFF!!!

The shapers are wrong, they want all the power, why then the rebels are "wrong" but avernum people is nice and just?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

So Waylander, you would argue that the unbound are not sapient/sentient. I am curious now, do you feel this way about any other creations? If so, which ones?

[Suspicious Vlish]

I'd argue that the vast majority of creations we see shaped to 'make battle' are NOT sapient.

 

The creations which I believe have been proven to be sapient include:

 

- Serviles

 

- Drayks

 

- Drakons

 

- Gazers

 

- Servant Minds

 

- At least some Battle Alphas (example: Freegate).

 

- A small minority of Thahds.

 

Pretty much every other creation does not display sapience. They do display VARYING degrees of sentience. For example, I'd argue that a Vlish has a higher degree of sentience than a turret or pylon.

 

Note that sapience does NOT = sentient. A sapient creature is always sentient, but a sentient creature is not always sapient.

[Retlaw May]

What do you think would happen to a child that stood in front of the mighty Ghaldring demanding answers to why his family was killed?

 

*Squash*

 

Drakons want to become the Shapers, but with even more power and less ethics.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
What do you think would happen to a child that stood in front of the mighty Ghaldring demanding answers to why his family was killed?

*Squash*

Drakons want to become the Shapers, but with even more power and less ethics.

What would General Crowley do to a young Drakon who asked the same of him? Drakons do show humans some consideration. Shapers show drakons none.

[-silver-]

and, I honestly think, if a young child stood before Ghaldring or his followers, based on his other speeches and actions, I think the drakon would probably just shoo the child off.

 

before Salassar or his followers, the child would likely be dead. But, then, there are some shapers who would sympathy for a young Drakon, as well.

 

why can't people understand Jeff's point, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good." and that it comes down to the individual, not the species or sect, how someone will act?

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by -silver-:
and, I honestly think, if a young child stood before Ghaldring or his followers, based on his other speeches and actions, I think the drakon would probably just shoo the child off.

before Salassar or his followers, the child would likely be dead. But, then, there are some shapers who would sympathy for a young Drakon, as well.

why can't people understand Jeff's point, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good." and that it comes down to the individual, not the species or sect, how someone will act?

Well said. I love that quote. It's a rare game that has the depth of this series of games. It's a shame that folks are missing the theme.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Thank you, Sartre. But what makes art interesting is that we can debate it reguardless of whatever the author's real message may have been.

[Retlaw May]

Drakons are "born" as "adults". From what I have gathered in the last three games Drakons are all shaped/grown into existance and emerge physically adult. I don't know if it is even possible for them to reproduce biologically.

[Dark Mage]

It's supossed that they can, otherwise they would not talk in Geneforge about their mates, they syrely need a mate for reproduction don't they?

[Suspicious Vlish]

Retlew:

Quote:

From what I have gathered in the last three games Drakons are all shaped/grown into existance and emerge physically adult. I don't know if it is even possible for them to reproduce biologically.

Lilita mentions that Drakons are no longer shaped, as they find it offensive to their species. Drayks and Drakons now reproduce naturally.

[Stillness]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Thank you, Sartre. But what makes art interesting is that we can debate it reguardless of whatever the author's real message may have been.

Smart comment aside, I agree here. I reckon you do know something.

[-silver-]

I agree. You can debate whatever regardless of the author's intent.

 

I also happen to think that the evidence of the game supports the authors intentions rather well in this particular case, and it's not correct to say one side is more or less ethical than the other, but to discuss the individuals on those sides.

[Questionmarks.]

Okay...Ghaldring's family members were killed or something?

Did you meet him back in G3.

I should buy that Trilogy...I really do not get half of the things you guys talk about,and considering all these big words and long paragraphs,you guys are like uh...cool nerds,yeah,cool nerds.

[Retlaw May]

Quote:

Originally written by Waylander:
Retlew:

Quote:

From what I have gathered in the last three games Drakons are all shaped/grown into existance and emerge physically adult. I don't know if it is even possible for them to reproduce biologically.

Lilita mentions that Drakons are no longer shaped, as they find it offensive to their species. Drayks and Drakons now reproduce naturally.

I'll have to check this out but I think she only refered to drayks in that comment.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
I'll have to check this out but I think she only refered to drayks in that comment.

I'll save you the trouble:

Quote:

begintalknode 30;
state = 15;
nextstate = -1;
condition = 1;
question = "What sort of creations might you make?";
text1 = "_Not drayks and drakons. They have insisted that they reproduce themselves through more biological means. Not gazers. They are too independent and unpredictable. And rotghroths are disgusting and hurt the morale of the other forces._";

[The Duke]

I must say I think this deserves to continue. Where does it say that drackons are born adult? Ssure you've never sseeen any drackon children but does mean we don't have children? It iss entirely posssible that we keep our children hidden from you curropting flesh creatures.

[Aeshi]

You never see any human/servile/drayk children either for that matter.Where could they have gone?

[Micawber]

I believe the reason why there are no children is because they were evacuated to the safe continent when the war began.

 

More prosaically, if Jeff included children, the psychotic players would just go around killing them, which is probably not something to be encouraged...

[Emperor Tullegolar]

There is one child in the series, a young servile in, I think, Geneforge 2. But yeah, situations where you might end up killing children isn't really Jeff's style. Unlike Fallout, in which there were no less than 8 fully animated death sequences for the children. Not to mention plenty of incentive to blow the little bastards away. That game did fairly well for itself, Jeff should note that more violence is rarely a bad thing.

[The Duke]

I know! Add children but make a certain death thing if you attack them. Or make them invulnerable with no attack so that you can destroy a town and only the little orphan children are left.

[Retlaw May]

Neverwinter Nights all over again...

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Unlike Fallout, in which there were no less than 8 fully animated death sequences for the children. Not to mention plenty of incentive to blow the little bastards away.

And then they had to be removed for the European version, breaking a couple of quests in the process.