Absorbing creations: necessary?

[madrigan]

Is it possible to play through the game without absorbing any creations? I'm barely into the game, not quite up to Dilame which I know is there because of my first, aborted attempt. Now I have a Shock Trooper with a Fyora, an Artila, and a Thahd. For further detail, I am trying to get through without using any canisters because I plan to talk my way through as many encounters as possible.

 

Ok, so, can I succeed just improving the creations I have now and adding to my Essence as I go to get more creatures? Or are these low-level creations going to get so out-of-date that I have to destroy them to make higher level companions?

[Lilith]

It's possible -- in fact, it's possible to get through the whole game without making any creations at all. On higher difficulty levels it'll become painful towards the end, though, especially once you can no longer upgrade your creations' stats any further.

[Men are from Slars]

Full stat comparisons for keeping a creation all game can be found here:

http://minmax.ermarian.net/g4/g4cre.html

 

Fyoras and Thahds become useless characters almost immediately due to their puny attacks. Artilas will have a useful ranged attack for a while but they are so very fragile.

[madrigan]

Thanks. The thahd is not as tough as I thought it would be. I guess I shouldn't have named it. So far the fyora and the artila are still useful. I might try to keep the fyora through the game for role-playing reasons -- because you don't just dismiss your loyal sidekick. The other two, maybe not.

[Dikiyoba]

It's very possible. I played a game through as a shock trooper on torment without absorbing any creations, or letting any die until the very end. I even managed to keep my fyora useful up until its tragic death in the Titan's Hall. (After which I got bored and went on a rampage in some major cities and stopped redoing battles if I lost another creation. I think the death of that faithful fyora drove my shock trooper insane.)

 

It does take some planning, though. You almost certainly don't want three creations before Dillame, because you'll want those spots available for more powerful creations later on in the game. Early on, the shock trooper is more than capable of fighting for herself. And you will want a cryoa. They're very good creations. There's a fair bit of leeway with the canisters, so don't be afraid to use a walkthrough to find a drayk canister or three and use them. (No in-game effect until 5 canisters, and no ending change until 12 or something like that.) Put just enough points into blessing magic that you can cast speed and mass energize as soon as possible and use them constantly. You'll want to be good at casting healing spells too. And I recommend against any early melee creations--early creations have less health and resistance, so you need them to have ranged attacks so they can stay out of harm's way. By the end of the game, my other creations stayed up front to knock enemies down to a sliver of health while my roamer and fyora (the weakest two) hung out in back to finish that sliver of health off.

 

That's probably more than you wanted to know, but Dikiyoba hopes it's useful to you.

[Men are from Slars]

Unfortunately, Battle Creations suck universally. There is never any point at which there is any reason whatsoever to use or invest in battle creations.

[Ale193]

Its possible to play through the whole game on easy or normal with a Cryoa wit max stats, at least in the older games. I didn't ditch mine until I could make a Gazer (attacking with kill is fun!) as far as battle creations, the only one really worth getting are thads in the early game, and Rotgroths towds the end. if you can get enough essence for Drakons they're awesome too. my favorite party is a Gazer/eyebeast, wit a drakon and a Rotgroth (though I had to cheat for the essence) artillas and vlish retain their usefulness for most of the game too, but eventually its best to replace them for heavier artillery (acid/poison is useles against rotgroths) You shouldn't have to worry about absorbing creations, even with the noblest intent the weak ones will get slaughtered and make way for better ones.

[Randomizer]

The major problem with low level creations is that they become susceptible to mental attacks in the last third of the game. Tier 4 and 5 creations seem to be immune.

 

This game assumes that you will replace creations, but as long as you have 4 slots you can just make a few powerful ones and keep your older ones. I had a lifecrafter that use 2 powerful creations for most of the end game.

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
Unfortunately, Battle Creations suck universally. There is never any point at which there is any reason whatsoever to use or invest in battle creations.

Except maybe a couple of Battle Betas as meatshields, though I admittedly prefer Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks (and maybe Drakons) in that role.

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
This game assumes that you will replace creations

I have yet to play a Geneforge game where I didn't. In fact, about 99% of the creations I make are expendable. I pretty much like to play as a loner.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Randomizer:

 

Quote:

The major problem with low level creations is that they become susceptible to mental attacks in the last third of the game. Tier 4 and 5 creations seem to be immune.

You know, I didn't think there were enough mental attacks to make mental resistance a huge issue. Maybe a few of the mass mental attacks, but mass attacks always hurt if you don't have most of your creations out of the way.

 

Dikiyoba.

 

Edit: Added quote.

[Xelgion]

I don't like having creations, they just get in the way and suck up xp. Maybe it was because I played as a servile but hey.

 

But the Protoss do like Rotrgroths, even if they are battle creations.

[The Mystic]

Having creations in any Genegorge games will reduce your xp, which is why I said above that I prefer to play as a loner.

[Dikiyoba]

Really, having creations doesn't reduce your experience by all that much, since things are worth less experience each time you gain a level, so you gain additional experience just by having the creations slow your leveling down.

 

Dikiyoba.

[-x-OMEN-x-]

I think absorbing the low level creations and LEARNING from the shaper on how to create high level creations would be the best route. Yes, absorbing is neccesary in certain situations

[Men are from Slars]

Yes, having creations in Geneforge is like having advantages in Avernum 4 and 5: you'll never be more than a small handful of levels behind even at the end of the game. So if you want to keep seven vlish (or whatever) around the whole game, it's an easy call to make.

 

The real perfectionist problem is if you plan on upgrading to new creations, or if you just use disposable creations; as unlike Avernum, you don't just lose skill points, you also lose a small amount of precious maximum essence. But if that really bugs you, you can always iwanttobestronger a few levels to make up for the XP leeching.

[wxxqut]

At level 40 you need to type iwanttobestronger thousand times to advance a level.Hands hurt.

 

I always use as much as creations as I have essence and I achieved level 41 so is a level achived without creations significantly higher or you give it to much importance.I think its former one.

[wxxqut]

*cough*I hope you will ignore this

[The Mystic]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
you can always iwanttobestronger a few levels to make up for the XP leeching.

I don't think that cheat is available in G4. I typed it in about 10 times in a row with no result, and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the hint book.

[Gandalf the Purple]

It's "iamweak" in G4. Why they didn't stick with "iwanttobestronger" I'll never know

[Xaiya]

I suggest creating a vlish or two as soon as it is resonable. Vlish are very powerfull in some situations.

[Evnissyen]

Battle creations: At least in G3, I thought the Rotghroth (sp?), especially the one that dripped acid, was especially nice... also I've always liked the glaahk (sp?)... though not when I have to fight them. They're deadly creatures.

 

The Wingbolt in G4 was nice (again, except when I had to fight one), maybe my favorite in the game. Eyebeasts are kind of nice, too. But these're high-level creations. Lower-level: take the vlish, I suppose, and the Cryoa... except that the Cryoa isn't so effective against creatures who are cold-immune.

 

I think I remember doing a check long, long ago on whether or not creations stole XP and finding that they didn't... but companions like Greta (notwithstanding she's a very helpful companion) do steal XP. In the beginning of G3 it's good to tell the girl who wants to tag along with you to get lost... because she also steals half your XP and then runs off anyway after you're done saving her life.

 

Um... I've never liked absorbing creations, especially when playing a rebel (in G4) or rebel-sympathizer (in G3) . . . it doesn't mesh with the rebels' ethics. I happen to feel that we should be allowed to simply 'disown' creations... especially if there's a certain 'reservation' for disowned creations, much like the one we're compelled to destroy in, I think, G3.

 

But in general, though I tend to try shaping creatures on first play just to see what they can do for me, I, too, have not been a huge fan of towing creations along, and I've preferred to do the games as a loner... my biggest problem: creations're too costly (essence-wise).

[Men are from Slars]

Your comparison was wrong; creations and Alwan and Greta all leech XP the same way. It's very minor, but they all do.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Clavicle:

 

Quote:

...except that the Cryoa isn't so effective against creatures who are cold-immune.

There aren't all that many cold-immune creatures. Shades. A few special enemies. Cryodrayks have a fairly large resistance to cold too, I think. I can't think of any others off the top of my head. But cryoas do have a pretty good melee attack as well as their ice breath.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Evnissyen]

Okay, maybe I don't remember the XP drains too well... I haven't played those games in a while.

 

As to cryoas... well, it's true that there aren't a 'lot' of enemies who are resistant to cold... it's just that whenever one pops up, it's a little annoying when my cryoa's breath-attacks render 0 damage.. and then I have to move the animal up to the foe, thus prompting the foe to either back up out of the way (and out of range of my own missile attacks) or else give my cryoa an unpleasant thumping.

 

Otherwise, as I've said, they're fairly good creations.

 

I'm not complaining. Sure, once in a long while they're useless... and they're not the only ones who experience those occasional moments of what-do-I-do?... but generally they're quite useful.

[Men are from Slars]

Cold resistance is actually annoyingly common. Most regular enemies are vulnerable to cold, but a large proportion of the less common but more annoying enemies resist it heavily: specters of all sorts are immune, and golems and pylons both take only 10% damage. And of course there are cryodrayks. The cryoa melee attack isn't horrendous, but creation melee attacks are really never good after G2.

 

Cryoas are still good -- they are one of the better values for their essence cost, and they are available early -- but the majority of your team should probably use magical or physical damage, to avoid being shut out against ice resistant enemies.

 

Although note that cryoas are great against wingbolts and their ilk.

[Dikiyoba]

Cold resistance seems a bit less common--or at least less annoying--than fire resistance or magic resistance. Magic creations from glaahks up all resist magic heavily (though the ability to take attacks from enemy magic creations is probably enough justification to shape a magic creation, something my party was lacking). And the whole last portion of the game is basically fire-resistant drayks and drakons (not really, but there are a lot). Physical damage is pretty reliable, but rarely spectacular.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Men are from Slars]

Yes, fire resistance is everywhere and fire attacks suck. Magic resistance is also an issue since where it does exist, it tends to be high (i.e. wingbolts). This is actually one of the things that makes kyshakks so spectacular -- their high HP and electrifying effect gives them an advantage over otherwise comparable wingbolts in a 1-on-1 fight. A team of cryoas, drayks, and kyshakks can sweep wingbolts and other magic creations.

 

I remember somebody saying once that in the PC version of G4, drayks do fire damage and not physical damage (which makes more sense anyway). Unfortunately, that devalues them entirely.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Slartucker:

 

Quote:

I remember somebody saying once that in the PC version of G4, drayks do fire damage and not physical damage (which makes more sense anyway). Unfortunately, that devalues them entirely.

They do.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
Yes, fire resistance is everywhere and fire attacks suck. Magic resistance is also an issue since where it does exist, it tends to be high (i.e. wingbolts). This is actually one of the things that makes kyshakks so spectacular -- their high HP and electrifying effect gives them an advantage over otherwise comparable wingbolts in a 1-on-1 fight. A team of cryoas, drayks, and kyshakks can sweep wingbolts and other magic creations.

If you use them properly, a team of wingbolts can easily sweep an equal group of enemy wingbolts, so this doesn't really mean much. Kyshakks are terrible and I hate them, high HP be damned. A tier-4 creation should not have difficulty hitting enemies even with buffs and boosted stats.

I'm convinced that an all-wingbolt party is optimal in G4 for all but a few very specialised tactical situations.

[Men are from Slars]

Interesting. I'm still inclined to go with drayks due to their significantly cheaper essence cost, which allows you twice as many for most of the game.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
Interesting. I'm still inclined to go with drayks due to their significantly cheaper essence cost, which allows you twice as many for most of the game.

Except that there's a 7-creation maximum. A Lifecrafter or Shock Trooper can easily have 3 wingbolts as soon as they become available and a full complement of seven by the endgame. Having 6 drayks at the point where you can have 3 wingbolts won't allow you to output all that much more damage, and your creations will die much more easily due to lower HP and resistances. Also, making drayks early and switching to wingbolts later means your wingbolts will have less time to level up -- since a creation's HP is proportional to the square of its level, this makes a big difference.

Wingbolts have one and only one big weakness: enemies that resist magic but attack with something else. This includes Eyebeasts, Unstable Firebolts and not much else.

[Men are from Slars]

Also Inferno Wyrms, Glaahks, and Ur-Drakons. Ur-Drakons are the only real issue there. But drayks aren't really any better off; and there aren't tons of ur-drakons running around anyway.

 

I'm skeptical that any lifecrafter will have >450 essence available at the beginning of chapter 3 when drayks and wingbolts first become available. (That's what 3 wingbolts cost, if you want them to be controllable, and that's without saving a little essence for spellcasting.) Although having 900 by endgame is quite doable. You may be right...

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Disappearer:
I'm skeptical that any lifecrafter will have >450 essence available at the beginning of chapter 3 when drayks and wingbolts first become available. (That's what 3 wingbolts cost, if you want them to be controllable, and that's without saving a little essence for spellcasting.)

My no-magic shock trooper managed it, but admittedly, the operative words there are "no magic".

[Student of Trinity]

My Shock Trooper dithered inefficiently between melee and magic, but pumped Intelligence steadily enough to have three Wingbolts (plus a couple of leftover Vlish) against Monarch. Wingbolts are certainly the best all-round creation, especially if you make them early, because they can level a lot through Chapter 3, which has practically nothing magic-resistant in it. I found that it made life easier, though, to include a drayk or two, and later a couple of Drakons, just for the occasions where fire damage was called for. You have to heal them a lot when you encounter Kyshakks, but I think it's worth it to decrease the tedium of magic-magic duels.

[Luckiiee]

I liked gazers in BOA They were pretty and colourful.