Creation growth[G5]

[Slariton]

So I did some tests and I found that the experience creations gain is still a constant percentage of the experience your PC gains, based on the level gap. I have only seen percentages in the 50% to 100% range, and unless your creation is more than 10 levels above or below it stays between 60% and 80%.

 

I also found that shaping skills no longer have a 10-cap.

 

Combined, this means that every point you buy in a shaping is worth between 1 level (for a freshly shaped, or disposable creation) and 1/2 level (for a creation you keep with you a very long time). It starts and 1 and will gradually diminish so long as your creation is a higher level than you, but it will never go below 0.5 in value. In practice, since even without shaping skill bonuses the creation probably wouldn't earn the full 100%, and you are not usually going to create a strong enough creation to only earn 50%, the value you get out of it is more likely to float between about 1 and 0.7.

 

Level is hugely important for creations. All creations get +1 to all four stats for every 2 levels, and their HP and Energy increase independently of End and Int for every 1 level -- this means that HP and Energy go up pseudo-exponentially.

 

THE POINT: This makes raising shaping skill the fastest way to ramp up damage, since you are permanently raising Strength for up to 7 creations for every 1-4 points you put in it (depending on the math above). Plus, you raise your creations' survivability tremendously at the same time.

 

The large number of levels available to gain in G5, for your PC, means that (1) you have plenty of skill points available to pump both Int and a shaping skill, and (2) less Int is required to start making the creation type you want. The two free bonuses to Int you can get in the demo don't hurt, either. If you pump Fire Shaping and make a Cryoa, it can easily be level 50 by the end of the game. If you pump Battle Shaping and make a Plated Clawbug when you get to Mera-Tev, it will start around level 35 and can easily be level 55 by the end of the game. Dash for the Glaahk canister and it should go from 40 to 60.

 

But the real charm of this strategy, I suspect, is in making pumped up higher tier creations when you are around level 25 or 30. They will start high and will begin to max out along with you by the end of the game. This is *not* the game for disposable creations!

[Delicious Vlish]

Also, raising stats is dirt cheap now... Want to see a real terror? Max out strength, dex, int, and endurance on a Vlish. You can do it fairly early too, and it really doesn't cost that much.

 

When said Vlish is about level 50, you have quite a minion.

 

Mid range creations are quite a good deal really... Stats are still cheap enough to max out with out to much essence drain, you get them early on so they can grow with you, and most of them are cheap to create initially. Vlish are great investments and can take you through the endgame. (Along with other creations)

 

During my beta experience, I'd make whole mobs of a creation to tide me over, absorb all of them but one, the strongest usually, (like a cryoa) and then make the next batch of next tier creations when I had the chance. Then I'd save one of those too. Having a good mix was actually valuable... Once I had the chance, I'd have a cryoa or two, a Vlish, (my namesake) a couple of battle creations, a plated artilla (powerful acid damage) or whatever magic creations were handy and I had access to.

 

Keeping stuff around works. I love the change to make creations cheaper to upgrade.

[Slariton]

*nod*

The one thing is that with so many chances to boost Strength (level ups, shaping skill, item bonuses, pumping creation stats directly) the attack multiplier becomes a lot more important. So an unstatpumped Wingbolt is gonna dish out a lot more than a +8 strength Vlish. On the other hand, a Cryoa may be preferable to a Cryodrayk because of direct pumping.

 

Basically the best offensive creations end up being:

Drayk & Drakon (Fire), Cryoa & Cryodrayk (Ice)

War Trall (Phys)

Wingbolt & Gazer (Magical)

 

Magic shaping also has ancillary creations: Vlish for weaken, Artila and Searing Artila for poison and acid, Glaahk for stun. All of those involve significant loss of flat out damage vs wingbolts, so I'm not sure they are worth it.

[Delicious Vlish]

Wingbolts are common midgame... Not so much in the endgame. I mean there are some, but not as much as, say, G4. As a gut feeling, I'd say that kyshaaks and rots are the most common end game fodder, with a sprinkling of eye tyrants, a few drakons, and plenty of unbound depending on your path.

 

Oh... And I believe creations can only go up +6 six now. It was changed. Am I correct?

 

Also, in the Vlish's favour, you can get a Vlish early on, and it will level the whole game, the same can not be said for a wingbolt. You can clear level 40 before ever getting a chance to create a wingbolt, unless you rush ahead early.

 

Edit:

 

Battle shaping also has excellent ancillary effects. Sorry, gotta toot that horn.

[Slariton]

When I said "vs wingbolts" I meant "compared to using wingbolts", not "when attacking wingbolts". A fully pumped Vlish will do about half the damage of a typical Wingbolt, against *anything*. (They are both magic damage.)

 

Creations go up to +8.

 

Battle shaping only has poison and acid for ancillary effects. They are pure damage ancillary effects, and they are on creations which, like the artila and searing artila, do a lot less damage in the first place, so I'm not sure how helpful they are.

[Delicious Vlish]

How well does an artilla defend it self?

 

Now, how well does a clawbug defend it self?

 

Both do poison damage. Which is mostly useful for stopping monster regen.

 

However, both are useful.

[Slariton]

The clawbug gets 60 bonus HP while the artila gets 10 bonus HP. The clawbug has 40% armor while the artila has 50% magic resistance. The HP difference is significant at low levels but not with the superbuff creations we're discussing. So really it's just armor vs magic resistance. Well, and the clawbug also does slightly more damage, and costs more essence.

 

Are you sure poison/acid status stops regen? Or do you just mean it does damage to make up for it?

[Delicious Vlish]

It does enough damage to counter balance the health gain of powerful levels of regeneration. It kills, even though it takes time. Things can't regenerate or heal very well when being worn slowly down with poison or acid.

 

It is now of vital importance to make sure you have a means of acid or poison application.

 

Roamers, clawbugs, artillas, all useful.

 

Burning spray and acid shower are also two of the best spells for this very reason.

 

Here is my problem with artillas in this game. Enemy AI. When an enemy takes acid, poison, or some means of lingering damage, they tend to go after the source of said damage. This can mean your shaper. Your sorceress. Your toon. When said monster takes poison damage, and then goes after your artilla, the artilla can take quite a beating.

 

I'd much rather have a clawbug or two out front, poisoning enemies and keeping aggression managed, as well as having the monsters in a nice neat clump if I am playing with a dedicated shaper strategy rather than a caster strategy. I can drop area of effect assaults on that area with impunity and the lingering poison damage means that my shaper stays safe because monster aggression stays pinged on the clawbug.

 

Of course, this isn't always the case. Occasionally, something breaks off and decides it wants a bite of delicious helpless shaper. That's what terror is for.

 

With all this in mind, I have found that acid shower can be a very risky spell for a dedicated shaper type to cast.

 

Best to do it behind it a bottleneck, like a clogged up doorway or a narrow bit of terrain clogged up with your creations.

[Slariton]

Originally Posted By: Delicious Vlish

It is now of vital importance to make sure you have a means of acid or poison application.

Isn't this a bit overdramatic? Acid and poison can be useful, but in the end they are just another way of doing damage. If a searing artila attacks a creature every turn, and a wingbolt attacks it every turn as well, the wingbolt will do more damage than the artila will, COUNTING the acid drip damage as part of the artila's damage.

The fact that part of the artila's damage happens over time is certainly not an advantage when facing regeneration! The faster you do damage and kill something, the fewer turns it has to regenerate.

[Delicious Vlish]

Not over-dramatic at all.

 

I like to keep things green when facing swarms. And you keep going on and on about wingbolts. Certainly nothing wrong with them, but they are not the end all solution. I've found they didn't hold up all that well.

 

An example... Hrm, like when you face a ruined city full of glaahks. And your creations keep getting stunned. Acid damage is awfully handy there. (And so are bottlenecks) Or facing the brutal bandit serviles who are heavily magic resistant and physically resistant. They also inflict a lot of physical damage.

[Slariton]

I just don't think they're "vital". I could just as easily say a good Daze is "vital" to dealing with the glaahks, but as your example shows, it isn't the only solution. etc, etc

[Delicious Vlish]

At the point you reach the glaahk infested city, you are unlikely to have strong daze. But you might. It is possible to get strong daze before reaching the storm plains.

 

As a dedicated shaper build, it is doubtful that you will have the cranked out spellcraft and mental magic required to daze glaahks for any length of time, if at all. As such, creations will be required to fend for themselves.

 

The whole point of a dedicated shaper build is to have your creations doing all of the work and the heavy lifting.

 

This means skimping out. As such, your mental magic and such will not be as well developed as you might like. Certain things might still work, like terror, but daze will be dicey.

[Slariton]

Daze was an example. The point is that poison and acid are not required.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Slarty

I just don't think they're "vital". I could just as easily say a good Daze is "vital" to dealing with the glaahks, but as your example shows, it isn't the only solution. etc, etc

More to the point, the two are more or less mutually exclusive, since the lingering damage will knock them out of their daze every turn.

Damage-over-time effects are great against turrets and shrubs, though. Drop a Lightning Aura on one, walk away and wait for it to die.

[Randomizer]

As DV pointed out the AI is a little flaky. It has a tendency to occasionally go after something that hasn't attacked. In the Stoneworks, I stashed my cryoas in a room and attacked the guardian golems with my sorceress and then watched the golems go after the cryoas.

 

Quote:

Damage-over-time effects are great against turrets and shrubs, though. Drop a Lightning Aura on one, walk away and wait for it to die.

 

Jeff nerfed this a little in that if you go too far away, the later round damage stops. He didn't like our attack and run away until the target drops.

[Synergy]

Acid is ramped up in G5 compared to G4. I find it very useful all throughout the game, unlike any game since A3. It's very satisfying to employ. Lightning Aura and Acid are two of my favorite attacks. The gift that keeps on giving...or rather, taking.

 

-S-

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Synergy

Acid is ramped up in G5 compared to G4. I find it very useful all throughout the game, unlike any game since A3. It's very satisfying to employ. Lightning Aura and Acid are two of my favorite attacks. The gift that keeps on giving...or rather, taking.

-S-

I noticed this too. Acid and poison damage seem to cap at about 100-120 instead of 60-70, and I've seen Lightning Aura do close to 250 damage per turn. Not so much fun when they're being used against you, though.

[Synergy]

Indeed. Magic, like blade of steel held in hand, also has two edges.

 

-S-