Beta bar (SPOILERS)

[Student of Trinity]

So the beta testers can now crowd round the bar and swap stories and opinions.

 

I think A5 is great. The only significant complaint I have is that the very last battles, either way, were kind of anti-climactic for me. But I was only playing on normal, and was probably overpowered for that; plus I was getting really busy with work at that point, and kind of out of the mood.

 

Other than this, it's a great long odyssey through a whole lot of classic Avernumish stuff, with quite a lot of bizarre new things thrown in. The hunt for Dorikas worked very well as a plot thread that linked everything together. The new theme of resource conflicts in Avernum is also interesting.

[Randomizer]

I played through on torment and from the few times I played on normal I could see how overpowered lower settings can be.

 

The plot was way better and should have been used for Avernum 4. Lots of nice information about old friends from the earlier games from Gypsy to Solberg and X. Really enjoyed the ecology of the eyebeast.

 

I have to say that battle disciplines were the best improvement for the game even if it makes running humans the worst decision a player can make. I'm guessing an all human party would be a challenge game.

[Alorael at Large]

I flaked hard on testing, but I agree that the game is solid, height is nice, the plot is what Avernum should be, and combat is still fun. I think the part of the game that really sold me on A5 was the spy hunt, traps, and other nastiness of the Drake Pillars area. I'm not really sure what made it so good, but rather than feeling thwarted by not knowing where to go I felt all the magic of exploring new lands again with the added twist of getting ambushed. A lot.

 

—Alorael, who thinks that Battle Disciplines finally justify dropping points in combat for casters. Adrenaline is very, very nice.

[Khoth]

The things that stood out for me were that Gladwell-related stuff felt more interesting than the main quest, and that there are a lot of trainers (3 levels now, yay) and skill rewards.

[Locmaar]

I really liked the Gladwell subplot as well. The first quest already ticked me off badly, which is why I was tremendously happy when I found the back entrance to his stronghold. I can hardly remember actually feeling this personally involved in a computer game at all, wet, trembling hands...

 

Uh, I liked the Drake Pillars' hunt for the Beast, stealing from Solberg and, as Alo pointed out, the 'magic of exploring new lands'.

 

I never thought the fights were too easy but then again I'm not the pimp-my-party kinda guy, meaning that I didn't pay particular attention if a nephil warrior is better than a human. Not that I wouldn't want the best possible party but I am usually too excited when I start a new game to take my time and think it through. I guess there are plenty of players out there who do just that. Balancing the game for them (well, us) is a tough job.

[Skippy the bush kangaroo]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
The only significant complaint I have is that the very last battles, either way, were kind of anti-climactic for me. But I was only playing on normal, and was probably overpowered for that; plus I was getting really busy with work at that point, and kind of out of the mood.

Well, I found the first iteration of a number of fights to be quite challenging (to the point of frustration). Getting Gladwell when summoned creatures had an insane amount of health - not fun. Getting General Redmark when the pylons protecting him were buffed to the max - not fun. I still haven't dealt with the evil shade that possesses your party in turn - but my initial experience with it; not fun.

However, the final version toned some of these down such that I didn't consider them insanely difficult any more.

And I really liked Gladwell. He had to die of course. But there were few downsides to his quests. I mean, so what if some cities don't like you that much - I wasn't going to go back there anyway.

[Student of Trinity]

I even forgot how many significant branchings there are: Gladwell or not, Anama or not, Darkside or not. This ought to add significant replay.

 

Though the funny thing about the long odyssey format, I find, is that finishing the game once feels final. The goal was to make the journey, and I made the journey. Making the journey a bit differently doesn't seem very important, somehow, because it was The Journey, if you see what I mean. And Avernum doesn't have Geneforge's built in replayability from sharply distinct classes and diverging allegiances.

 

I think I'll need to find a role-playing angle of some sort to really motivate replay. You know, this time my guys are bitter and disillusioned about the Empire from the beginning; or hate all Avernites on principle; or something like that. Shouldn't be too hard.

 

Anyway, how does A5 stack up in the Spiderweb pantheon?

[Randomizer]

Did anyone ever wait until after finishing Gladwell's 5th geas quest and see if there was anything more that the normal rewards? I'll admit I couldn't get past 4 before I really had to kill him.

 

My real complaint about A5 that keeps it below A2 in the pantheon was the choke points where you had to do the quest to leave the area. The one for the demo and Lysstak for leaving chapter 3 are the only true ones. If you really work at it you can push through chapter 4 into chapter 5 without doing Solberg's quest, but you have to reload several times to figure out how to do it without making the entire area hostile so you can come back later. There isn't the freedom to really just explore the new world. Jeff continually forces you back into the linear path.

[Locmaar]

I didn't mind the linearity much. It felt appropriate and plausible.

 

I do recall, though, that I was really annoyed when Gladwell didn't drop a chain of smoking keys when he hit the floor.

[Randomizer]

Quote:

Originally written by Locmaar:
I do recall, though, that I was really annoyed when Gladwell didn't drop a chain of smoking keys when he hit the floor.

I asked Jeff about why Gladwell's key didn't open the difficulty 90 reward doors and it was, "no bulk looting of rewards." You can't get those rewards without having to do the quests.

[Student of Trinity]

We've had linearity debates back and forth many times. One person's constraint is another's storyline. Perhaps what we can agree is that, as a game of its checkpointed kind, A5 is well executed.

[Khoth]

What I'd like to see in the next game is, if not less linearity in plot, less linearity in terrain. The map in A5 feels unnaturally linear, but it would feel much less so if progressing opened routes back to the start. (as in "a bridge is repaired" rather than as in "you can fight through the cultist hideout and drop through a hole").

[Randomizer]

The only place that you can go back without those pylons is through Gladwell's Keep. Even then you need to stockpile a boat and the pylons are easier.

 

I do miss the openness of Avernum 1-3. You could go off in any direction until you die.

[Khoth]

You don't need to stockpile a boat - Gladwell's comes back to his area.

 

And through Gladwell isn't the only backwards route - there's also the one I brought up in my post. It's one-way, though.

[Alorael at Large]

The whole game reminded me a little bit of A2's Dark Waters. You're less literally isolated from civilization, but you're on your own in lands where nobody really likes you and you're going in a straight line.

 

I can see what the objection is to the shape of the map, but I never noticed it until I actually did look at the world map, which I don't regularly use. Wandering around never really felt restricted. Yes, maybe being able to charge across the Drake Pillars and depart through Exodus would be nice, but I play through everywhere with such a fine comb that checkpoints never stopped me from going anywhere that I wasn't forbidding myself from going anyway.

 

—Alorael, who wonders if Gladwell would be better or worse if he were less obviously horrific when you first meet him. Getting tricked into servitude would be cruel, but it would make vengeance very satisfying.

[Khoth]

I agree that it wasn't that wandering round felt restricted (after all, the pylons provide a rather connected layout for travel). It was looking at the map and thinking "what's with this map?"

 

I like Gladwell as he is. If I was tricked into it, I wouldn't feel so guilty about having to do unpleasant things later. And killing him was satisfying enough as it was.

[Spidweb]

"What I'd like to see in the next game is, if not less linearity in plot, less linearity in terrain. The map in A5 feels unnaturally linear, but it would feel much less so if progressing opened routes back to the start."

 

This will never happen again in new games. It is too difficult to balance the game this way. If you let the player visit limitless dungeons and gain incredible power before attacking the plot, the main dungeons will always be pitiful.

 

Also, I have a powerful dislike of the "Can I go this way yet? Oh. A wandering monster killed me. I'll reload and walk a different way." mechanic. When you enter a new region, I want that whole region to be fairly balanced for you.

 

Of course, when I re-rewrite the early Avernum games, the old world layout will remain.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Spidweb]

"It was looking at the map and thinking "what's with this map?""

 

That's because the final version map didn't go in until beta testing was almost done. I could hardly map the world until the world was done. Jeez!

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Khoth]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
This will never happen again in new games. It is too difficult to balance the game this way. If you let the player visit limitless dungeons and gain incredible power before attacking the plot, the main dungeons will always be pitiful.

I didn't mean like that. What I had in mind was to make it that sometimes after exploring a new area in the linear way, a route between the area you've just entered and an old area is opened. That way, progress is still linear through zones, but it doesn't seem like everyone's living in a long tunnel.

Or, something like the Zelda games, where the world map isn't obviously linear, but every area still has to be done in order to get the required stuff to reach the next area.

[Student of Trinity]

It is a bit odd that the long trip actually takes you round in a big spiral.

 

It's clearly not impossible, just a bit of a pain, to make a system in which the map is not constrained to fill one screen. But it would probably really add something to have a sort of 'slidable' world map — a map like what would work on an iPhone.

[Alorael at Large]

As I understood the suggestion, the idea isn't to stop restricting travel but to lay the world out differently. You start in caves A, and after defeating the fearsome Gwindlefniffer you can pass the checkpoint to the north into cave B. Free the Amazing Mystical Shipwright and he'll build you a boat so you can sail east into area C, which runs north-south east of A and B. Once you stop the brigands from waylaying wood shipments the bridge west of A can be completed so you can head west to D, and then south to E, and then east to F, which is immediately south of A and can reconnect.

 

The layout ends up something like this:

 

Code:

....BB...CC...BBBBCCC....BB...CCC....A....CC..D.AAA.CC..DDDAAACC...DD.AA......E....F.....EE.EFFF....EEEFFFF...

Travel is still restricted, but it doesn't end up linear.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't care so much. Linear doesn't bother him, and certainly that much non-linearity feels weird with a linear plot. But you could once in a while have travel somewhere other than the main thrust of the plot's directional travel.

[Synergy]

The map seems to be constructed to use one big rectangle of area, rather than say. a big meandering ribbon off to the north. Maybe this is a programming issue?

 

I really loved the Drake Pillars area of the game best of all. The atmosphere and quests there were very engaging. I liked the feeling of being way away from civilization in an exciting new land people are clamoring to possess and exploit. I felt a bit burned out and more distracted with real life in the late game, so it took me a long time to finish the last two chapters.

 

The end did feel anti-climactic in that, after going through so much to get to Dorikas, there was nothing too spectacular or bizarre or hugely surprising in what you find, encounter, and do to finish the game. It's perfectly suitable, all in all, I suppose. That may again have a lot to do with so much playing just to get there. I'll be curious to hear more of what the general playing population has to say when they get through the game.

 

All in all, I think the masses will find this a very engaging and rewarding game, and I predict it will do very well. It's a great improvement on A4, which also did quite well, after all.

 

-S-

[Locmaar]

The following post might contain spoilers for those who haven't finished the game.

 

Be warned.

 

My impression concerning the ending being anti-climactic was that it somehow had to be, because the story-arc is building up towards Avernum 6. Whichever ending will become canonical, the Empire has an outpost buried deep within Avernum lands. Furthermore, wiht both possible Emperors being nutcrackers, another invasion of Avernum may be imminent.

Either way, whatever the story is building up to, Avernum 5 sets the stage for the grand finale. Its ending feels unsatisfying, even anti-climactic, because it simply is.