Just finished the game; now confused about villains' motivations (spoilers)

[Velorien]

What exactly are the villains' motivations as far as the main character is concerned? Throughout the game, a number of antagonists imply or outright state that they have high hopes for you realising how corrupt Avadon is and joining their side. The Wayfarer directly asks you to rise up against Redbeard and replace him as Keeper, saying he believes you will be a better one. He also asks you to spare Duke Gryfyn because this will apparently be to your benefit once you take over.

 

I've killed Redbeard and taken his place. Duke Gryfyn continues his work to undermine the Pact, with no hint of being my ally in any way. Miranda has vanished and not come back, even though I was her pet project and I performed exactly as she wanted. Dheless has made no overtures towards me and continues to act as an absolute enemy.

 

 

I can only see two options.

 

1) The villains are confused as to whether they want Avadon destroyed or reformed. If it's the former, they would not bother encouraging me to be a more ethical Keeper than Redbeard. If it's the latter, they shouldn't treat me as an enemy once I take over. In either case, it would have made far more sense to wait to see the results of my assassination attempt before deciding whether to invade.

 

2) I've been played for a fool, and they've simply been telling me whatever it takes to get me to go up against Redbeard, in the hope that either I kill him where they couldn't, or at worst he kills me and Avadon loses one of its best servants. Either way, Avadon is slated for ultimate destruction.

[Randomizer]

There is more clarity in Avadon 2, but you have different groups with their own goals that are united against a common enemy, Avadon. Some like Miranda have a personal grudge against Redbeard and others like Dheless want to improve their land's power grab by breaking up Avadon that protects the Pact.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. Only insanity helps to resolve conflicting information.

[Earth]

we'll see in 3rd game what will happen to Black Fortress and pact.

[Edgwyn]

One of the reasons that I tend to stay loyalist is that most of the answer to the OP is 2. None of them seem to have a good post Avadon plan.

[Kelandon]

This is an interesting point, and I want to do a more thorough rundown later, but my preliminary answer is that there is at least a significant faction of Avadon's enemies that just wants chaos. They don't really want a more moral Keeper; they want a novice Keeper who doesn't really have control, so they can blow everything up. That's kind of like 2).

 

Also, I kind of think that the Wayfarer just wants to rub Avadon's phony self-righteousness in your face.

[Superba]

Most of the conspirators try to convince you they want to stop Avadon's control over their lands to get their land's decision-making power back. As we can see in Avadon 2 this is not a lie but they omit to inform you of the further steps. They are not merely interested in this encouraging you to take Redbeard's place. They act to destroy Avadon's army and the Keep itself, exspecially Dheless wants that, to be free to, well, fight each others realms to control and reach the absolute power over the continent. Redbeard and his predecessors built Avadon's influence and power (living) throughout the centuries. It seems unlikely to me that a young Keeper with no political vision and ignorant about what came before him can have the wisdom and the intellect to restore Avadon's role... I believe Avadon will definetly fall in episode 3.

[Kelandon]

I went back and did a check on this. Here's the basic rundown.

 

MIRANDA

 

Your final conversation with Miranda before she uses the portal out of Avadon reveals a lot of the relevant information. The best summary of her motives that she gives is, "The Pact, as it exists now, is doomed. However, Avadon might be useful to a newer, reduced Pact. I hate Redbeard, but I still care about the people he failed to look after."

 

In the dungeons, we learn that, 40 years ago, Miranda was part of a plan — with her husband — to assassinate Redbeard. In that final dialogue, she reveals more:

 

Miranda: Redbeard long ago became distant and arbitrary, and his Hands were fully corrupt. When my husband and I came here, we thought we could improve things. I soon gave up on that foolish dream. He was more idealistic.

PC: And what happened?

Miranda: He tried to kill Redbeard. He failed. I was forced to renounce my darling before his eyes. Then Redbeard had him killed. To save my own life, I swore total loyalty to Redbeard. I groveled. I abased myself. And I dreamed of revenge.

 

(What's a little striking about this to me is that 40 years ago would've been about 10 years after Redbeard came to power. Redbeard has been checked out for a long time, according to Miranda.)

 

In short, Miranda hates Redbeard personally and opposes the Pact as an institution because it oppresses the Farlands, but — at this point — she still cares about the people of the Pact enough that she wants a newer, weaker Pact that can't dominate the Farlands but won't be dominated by them, either.

 

So why does Miranda vanish after the end of Avadon 1, regardless of the ending you choose? My guess is that she finds that she has basically no power once she arrives in the Tawon Empire, so she can't help you. She may not have realized how far she would fall; she's been a Heart of Avadon for a long time, and now she's a refugee.

 

In Avadon 2,

in Monitor Base D, we get some more information. Her husband was trying to replace Redbeard. Miranda says that Redbeard has needed replacement "for years," and she believes the Pact is also "lazy, selfish, decadent, squabbling." Her plan in the Corruption is to kill huge swaths of people in the Pact, including herself, and she seems to have given over to complete nihilism ("And how do you know we don't all deserve to die? I do. You do. Redbeard does. Maybe the Corruption is only the thing we all have coming."). She says that Dheless approves, as long it weakens the Pact but doesn't kill all life on Lynaeus. By this point, then, she doesn't seem to care about the people of the Pact anymore; she wants to kill everything. This seems to be a change (Dheless comments on her change right before he defenestrates himself), and it suggests that something bad happened to her once she got to the Tawon Empire. This may be a second reason she doesn't contact the Avadon 1 PC. (Yes, yes, the canonical Avadon 1 ending for Avadon 2 is not the same as the traitorous ending of Avadon 1, but perhaps the same bad thing happens to Miranda either way, and she grows more nihilistic and less willing to let Avadon survive the coming crisis either way.)

 

 

THE WAYFARER

 

Miranda says of the Wayfarer, "At my suggestion, he was sent to instruct you in just how corrupt Avadon was. He tried to teach you how much The Black Fortress misuses its power." The Wayfarer, then, is just following instructions from whoever "sent" him at Miranda's suggestion (presumably Dheless). He has no independent motivations.

 

DUKE GRYFYN

 

Abundant dialogue throughout Vebaux makes clear that Gryfyn was genuinely reaching out for peace with Holklanda, at first. But neither side cooperated well enough with him to make peace truly possible. In the meantime, Gryfyn has been corresponding with Dheless (you can find a note from him that says, "I told you. The Holklandans would only take your openness as weakness. No matter. Together, we will do great things."). He has also become convinced that the Pact is falling. Under the right circumstances, the following dialogue is available:

 

Gryfyn: It is not politic to speak, and yet I feel I should. This is a time of great tumult. Of great indecision. The Pact flirts with weakness, and its future is in the balance. I must do what I can to create a strong Kellemderiel.

PC: You think the Pact flirts with weakness?

Gryfyn: The Pact is a great power, but it is aging. It is suffering the weakness of Empire, or complacency brought on by too much strength for too long. What is happening to Avadon? Its Hands are being attacked, yes? Even in Avadon itself? This is a symptom.

PC: I agree. We must do our best to defend the Pact.

Gryfyn: Of course. That is what I have been doing. Only remember, the tail does not wag the dog. I serve the Pact so that Kellemderiel is strong. My great love is for my people. There can be no other way.

 

By the end of the game, Gryfyn's goal is for Kellemderiel to survive the (he believes) inevitable and imminent downfall of the Pact. He says the same thing in his final dialogue: "Everything I have done, everything, I have done to keep Kellemderiel safe, secure, and powerful in the chaotic, violent times to come." Avadon will collapse, the Pact will fall apart, there will be war, and ultimately some new balance will arise.

 

His parting words, if you let him go, include: "War is coming. I hope that I can be a proper ally to you one day. First, of course, you must have the strength and cunning to forge a faction of your own." In other words, he will become an ally in the war if you can create a new, non-Pact faction to the benefit of Kellemderiel.

 

So why does he encourage you to supplant Redbeard? Presumably because Redbeard will continue to fight for a united Pact for as long as he lives, and, to Gryfyn, that would only prolong the wait for the crisis that he believes is inevitable. For all the Gryfyn talks about being young and able to work for a long time toward his goals, he's incredibly impatient: his first attempt at peace with Holklanda fails, so he gives up and attempts to undermine the alliance that has made his country strong for generations. He does not want to sit around waiting for the crisis.

 

Also, he knows that Redbeard will never be his ally in the new world order that he is attempting to create, but you might, and with the Pact collapsed, he will need as many new allies as he can get (he says so almost in exactly those words). The Tawon Empire is a good ally, but Tawon and Avadon would be even better.

 

In Avadon 2,

Gryfyn seems more explicitly soured on Redbeard than he had been before. It's not clear whether this is a change or whether he just didn't tell the PC in Avadon 1. He says things like, in response to asking how you should act, "To kill Redbeard. Remove him. Free us all from his arrogance, his cruelty, and his fading mind. You can work for Dheless. You can act alone. At this point, anyone would be better than him."

 

 

Why doesn't he contact you after you take over Avadon? Like Miranda, he becomes a refugee, with little power. He intends to be your ally in the war, but the war has not come yet in the text ending to Avadon 1, so he has not yet resurfaced. He will, eventually, but not yet. Also, in Avadon 2,

he's in the Tawon Empire, so he is far enough away that it's difficult to contact you even if he wants to. He says to a traitorous Avadon 2 PC, "I hope that we can aid each other one day." So he's still not where he needs to be by the time of Avadon 2. This is why he doesn't contact the Avadon 1 PC after the Avadon 1 PC replaces Redbeard.

 

 

DHELESS

 

We simply don't know much about Dheless in Avadon 1. Given Miranda's politics, it's a fair bet that he's upset at the Pact's domination of the Farlands and wants the Tawon Empire to rise up to its former glory. That's about it.

 

So why does he encourage you to replace Redbeard (through Miranda, Gryfyn, and the Wayfarer)? I don't think we know enough to know. Maybe he hopes that if you are convinced of the corruption of Avadon, and you take control, you will treat the Farlands more justly. Maybe he hopes that a weakened Avadon will speed the downfall of the Pact.

 

Why doesn't he contact you after you replace Redbeard? Presumably because the crisis hasn't come yet. There will be war, and maybe he has the same view as Gryfyn: you are potential allies in the war, but not before then.

 

In Avadon 2,

Dheless says that his goal is, "The liberation of the Tawon. The end of the tyranny of the Pact. Maybe even the restoration of some of our former holdings from the time of Empire." He adds, "I am directing one of the greatest projects in the glorious history of the Tawon Empire. I am going to end our servitude, to restore our freedom, to help select a Sovereign to replace that lickspittle Vartius."

 

That said, he adds (right before his self-defenestration), "I never wanted the Tawon Empire to regain its old size and brutality. I only wanted us to be free of the Pact's arbitrary cruelty." He also says to a PC who expresses the desire to replace Redbeard, "You should become Keeper. If you bring justice to the Farlands, a devastating war might be prevented."

 

Dheless's goal is the sovereignty of the Tawon over its own territory, and he views Redbeard as an obstacle to that. Getting the PC (either in Avadon 1 or Avadon 2) to replace Redbeard removes that obstacle. Unlike Miranda or Gryfyn, though, he doesn't seem to view the destruction of the Pact as necessary or inevitable. He's talking — in Avadon 2, fairly late in the process — about avoiding war. If the Pact stops oppressing the Farlands, Dheless claims he will be satisfied. So once the Avadon 1 PC replaces Redbeard, Dheless really should contact him and try to negotiate for peace.

 

But maybe that's all just garbage, brought up by introspection right before (temporary) death. Dheless seems pretty excited about the great project he has in mind, and that involves "maybe" reclaiming lost Tawon holdings. He probably really wants the war, so he doesn't contact the Avadon 1 PC because he wants to push everything much closer to the brink before negotiating, if he'll negotiate at all.

 

 

So, tl; dr: All of the villains are refugees or in hiding at the end of Avadon 1, and even by the time of the end of the text endings of Avadon 1, the crisis hasn't come yet, so they are not yet prepared to make new (extra-Pact) alliances.

[Velorien]

Thanks for that extensive and intelligent overview. sadly, I can't make use of the Avadon 2 content (as I haven't finished that game yet), but I look forward to coming back to this post when I have.