Advice

[Carlos]

Hello all,

 

Just bought this game from the appstore, and I'm looking for advice on building a good party setup. My ideas are this:

 

Warrior (Tank) - Mage - Mage - Priest

 

Warrior (DW) - Archer - Mage - Priest

 

I would prefer the second setup, but I don't know if archers are good on this game, and also, if having no tank might make bosses too difficult.

 

All suggestions are welcome for a newbie!

[Jerakeen]

You can have a dual-wielding tank, at least if you're playing on Normal. Others here will tell you that archers aren't worthwhile, but I disagree. They're awesome in the early game, and hold their own pretty well throughout. Again, it depends on the difficulty.

 

There's nothing wrong with your second choice; as for the first, if I were playing three casters I'd make two of them priests rather than mages. Priests are more versatile.

[Randomizer]

Both will work, however archers work best on normal difficulty. Mages use less spell energy and have a greater choice of damage type spells.

[Carlos]

Thank you Jerakeen and Randomizer for your tips.

 

Since this is my first at this game I`ll play on normal difficulty, and taking your replies into account ill take a shot at the second setup.

 

Thanks again and have a good day!

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Archers aren't great, but they aren't terrible either. In A5 and 6, archers were consistently worse than pretty much any melee fighters (assuming similar levels of build optimization and equipment). I'd say they're better than pole fighters (they do a bit less damage, but they have more ancillary benefits, can attack at range, and can use shields). They're weaker than dual wielders, especially in the second half of the game, but so are most builds.

[ex post slarto]

Archers simply cannot match either the damage output or the useful utility effects of melee attackers or spellcasters. You can certainly make a playable archer and it won't cripple a party, but objectively, the archer will not be as effective as other characters.

[nikki.]

They are fun to play though, and the extra attacks you can get in A:EftP are pretty cool.

 

I played on Normal, and had an archer in my party, and didn't once feel like I'd made a bad decision having her. If you're playing higher difficulties, your choices will probably change though.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Archers simply cannot match either the damage output or the useful utility effects of melee attackers or spellcasters. You can certainly make a playable archer and it won't cripple a party, but objectively, the archer will not be as effective as other characters.

There are some advantages to having an archer. Gymnastics and Sniper skill both give you a decent chance of acting twice a round once raised high enough, which does a lot to catch up to the damage output of a dual-wielder (although even then, the dual-wielder will still have an edge under ideal conditions). Archery also has higher base accuracy than melee combat, so you'll miss much less often (and enemies will miss you more often, since you're investing in Dexterity and Gymnastics). Given the number of enemies that have knockback/immobility/spine shield effects that can make your melee fighter useless, and the fact that it's actually possible to miss with attacks in EftP, I'd say archers do have their niche in this game. On low difficulties, their niche is evasion; on high difficulties, it's accuracy and reliability.

The catch is that your archer will be more fragile than a melee fighter due to missing out on Hardiness and Parry, and won't have the potential single-target damage output of a melee fighter or the multi-target blasting power of a mage. Archers are strongest in the early game, before you have ways to mitigate the limitations of other character types.

[Carlos]

Appreciate all the responses.

 

Looks like the common opinion is that archers are a below the other classes in dmg and utility (useful for future re-runs on higher difficulties), but that on normal (planned difficulty for mi first time) it won't matter much. I`ll stick with an archer for this first play through since i like the class in general.

 

Again, thanks for everyone`s input!!

[ex post slarto]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Gymnastics and Sniper skill both give you a decent chance of acting twice a round once raised high enough, which does a lot to catch up to the damage output of a dual-wielder (although even then, the dual-wielder will still have an edge under ideal conditions).

This is misleading. Sniper's bonus is literally nonexistant if you regularly cast Haste, and since Haste provides quite a large benefit for your other party members and is cheap, you will probably cast it frequently. The Gymnastics bonus is better, but there are better ways to use skill points.

And under ideal conditions, the dual-wielder will have a HUGE edge.

Quote:

Archery also has higher base accuracy than melee combat, so you'll miss much less often

Are you sure about this? I know this was true in previous games, but the ability definitions file doesn't include any bonus.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

This is misleading. Sniper's bonus is literally nonexistant if you regularly cast Haste, and since Haste provides quite a large benefit for your other party members and is cheap, you will probably cast it frequently. The Gymnastics bonus is better, but there are better ways to use skill points.

And under ideal conditions, the dual-wielder will have a HUGE edge.

Does the chance to get an extra shot not stack with the chance from haste? Was that confirmed? I thought it was only confirmed that you couldn't get both in one turn.

I didn't find myself using Haste all that much before raising it to level 3 anyway: my mage's turn was valuable enough that he was better off doing as much damage as possible at the start of the fight rather than giving up his first turn to give others a chance to get an extra turn. I guess that's an argument for having a second mage instead of an archer, though.

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Are you sure about this? I know this was true in previous games, but the ability definitions file doesn't include any bonus.

with zero investment in dexterity and bow skills, and raising Strength almost every level, my melee fighters had higher accuracy with bows than with melee weapons for the first few levels. I even tested with one weapon removed to take the penalties from dual-wielding out of the equation. So yeah, I'm sure: I suspect the different base accuracy is something that's hardcoded into the game.

[ex post slarto]

You can't get both; you can get either. Since it does not become nearly automatic, I assume that means you roll for both in some order.

 

Originally Posted By: me

Sniper gives you a chance of having a bow attack use 5 AP instead of 9 AP. It can only activate once per turn, however, if it does not activate on your first attack and you are making mutliple attacks, it can still activate on a later attack. What this means is that Sniper is only helpful if you start the turn with 6-9, 15-18, or 24-27 AP. The two later ranges are fairly unusual. Unfortunately this means that Sniper is almost completely useless if you plan on giving your archer two +AP items, or a +AP item and Gymnastics (which is one of the skills below Sniper!), or if you use Adrenaline Rush, or Battle Frenzy... PLUS, it seems that Sniper's extra shot will NOT activate if the Haste bonus has already activated this turn, and vice versa. Eww, gross. What a crappy skill!

[Lilith]

So the bonus doesn't in fact become "literally nonexistant", then? Good to know.

 

Having said that, it's probably sensible to max out Gymnastics before putting any points in Sniper.

[ex post slarto]

Ugh, ugh, ugh. Those are horrendous skills.

 

Let's look at the average # of attacks you'll get with different skill combos. I used Jerakeen's testing on Gymnastics (10 gives 28% chance of 10+ AP, 66% chance of 9+ AP).

 

1.28 -- Gymnastics

1.33 -- Haste

1.50 -- Sniper

1.52 -- Gymnastics + Haste

1.64 -- Gymnastics + Sniper

1.66 -- Gymnastics + AP Item

1.67 -- Haste + Sniper

1.76 -- Gymnastics + Haste + Sniper

1.77 -- Gymnastics + AP Item + Haste

1.83 -- Gymnastics + AP Item + Sniper

1.88 -- Gymnastics + AP Item + Haste + Sniper

 

Note that using 1 AP Item has no effect on any of these except for making Gymnastics more likely to work. Using 2 AP Items makes all these effects useless as you will still never get a 3rd attack off them. Likewise, Battle Fury and Adrenaline Rush make these effects essentially useless while they are active (unless you stack a ton of them together in which case that's a lot of effort for a small reward).

 

To put this into skill point terms: You can spend 10 skill points for a 25% increase in turns received with above caveats, or 20 for a 32% increase. If you also use an AP Item on this PC, you can instead spend 10 for a 33% increase, or 20 for a 41% increase.

 

This increase is not any better than what you can get by pumping damage skills (either the basic ones, or better yet, Blademaster, Sharpshooter and their ilk). However, it has the drawback of combining poorly with Adrenaline Rush and Battle Fury, two of the most powerful and useful abilities.

[Lilith]

Spending 10 skill points for a 25-30% increase in damage is about on par with what other combat skills do, really. I wouldn't call it horrendous, especially when you factor in the evasion bonus, which is actually going to be relevant on Normal difficulty. Gymnastics stacks just fine with Adrenaline Rush, too: attack, rush, attack, attack, attack.

 

It does work out worse than Sharpshooter, though, so I guess the take-home message is to max out Sharpshooter, then Gymnastics, then either Lethal Blow or Sniper depending on whether you think that randomly inflicting status ailments is at all worthwhile.

[ex post slarto]

I guess Gymnastics is not the end of the world on Normal difficulty. Combining Sniper and Gymnastics is a serious waste, though. If you are going for Gymnastics first, don't bother with Sniper at all.

[Lilith]

The thing is, there's not a whole lot else for an archer to spend skill points on. On the bright side, I guess that means you have a character who can easily pump Cave Lore and Tool Use to save skill points for everyone else.

[Jerakeen]

Archer + pole weapon + crowd of mooks + Blade Sweep = whirlwind of destruction

 

Trouble is, once you've got Adrenaline Rush you're usually fatigued before you're surrounded. And by the time you recover, the mooks have probably been wiped out by the spellcasters anyway. But there's a brief period in the game when you can have a lot of fun with this.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Likewise, Battle Fury and Adrenaline Rush make these effects essentially useless while they are active (unless you stack a ton of them together in which case that's a lot of effort for a small reward).

Regarding Adrenaline Rush: how so? AR isn't a flat 12 AP bonus like it was in A5-6. In that system, going from 10 AP to 22 only gave the character one additional (9 AP) action. In EftP, AR sets AP to 20. This means a character with 10 AP can take an action, trigger adrenaline rush, then take 3 more actions. As such, I'm not sure why AR's mechanics would make starting out with 10 AP any less useful.

I'm with you on Battle Frenzy (and equivalent item effects), though.

[Jerakeen]

You're correct about AR. As for Battle Frenzy (the status not the battle discipline), when combined with Haste (as it almost always is) and as few as 2 extra AP from Gymnastics, you'll often get 3 actions per round. That's worthwhile. Of course, you'd have better odds with 2 AP-raising items, but there may be items you'd rather use.

[ex post slarto]

AR does not set AP to 20. It actually does this:

 

1) Reduce AP for using an action (normally -9)

2) AP overflow check, so AP is raised to 0 if it is negative

3) +20 AP

 

Anyway, yes, if you have 10 AP you can do action, trigger, action action action. The problem is that if you do that, you can't move even a single square. Being able to take four useful actions without positioning yourself first is a difficult feat. (Although I guess it's easier if your actions are weak single target attacks, so you'll never kill anything )

[ex post slarto]

Originally Posted By: Jerakeen

As for Battle Frenzy (the status not the battle discipline), when combined with Haste (as it almost always is) and as few as 2 extra AP from Gymnastics, you'll often get 3 actions per round. That's worthwhile.

That's unlikely. If Haste activates on (5/9 chance of doing so before it's too late), you need to start out with 9+5+1 = 15 AP in order to get a third attack. Battle Fury gets you to 13, and 2 AP from Gymnastics will get you to 15. So that's 28% for the 2 AP times 55% for the Haste, which is about a 15% chance of increasing your actions by 50%, for an average increase in damage output of about 8%. Not good enough to justify 10 skill points either.

[Jerakeen]

Well, I can't argue with the math, but I will point out that the 28% is for 10 Gymnastics; it's possible to get it up to 15 or so with purchased points and items, which shifts the odds slightly.

 

And even at ten, equipping a single AP-boosting item changes the 28% to about a 63% chance of at least 10 AP per turn. Which gives you roughly a 34% chance of 3 actions when frenzied and hasted.

[ex post slarto]

Which is about a 17% increase in damage output -- to accomplish which you've used up one of the +1 AP items (which are scarce); or maybe you have a 10% or 12% increase, but you've chosen sub-optimal equipment for other slots (+3 Gymnastics does not come from top-tier stuff). Definitely does not justify 10 skill points.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Which is about a 17% increase in damage output -- to accomplish which you've used up one of the +1 AP items (which are scarce); or maybe you have a 10% or 12% increase, but you've chosen sub-optimal equipment for other slots (+3 Gymnastics does not come from top-tier stuff). Definitely does not justify 10 skill points.

Again, though... if you're determined to make an archer, what else are you going to spend the skill points on once you've maxed out Sharpshooter? I guess you can take some priest spells and be a backup healer, but...

[The Reverend]

I've been using your second build (DW, archer, mage, priest) on hard difficulty, and it's been working pretty well. The archer is probably the least useful of the group, as others have said, but she's not useless and she is fun to play.

[ex post slarto]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Again, though... if you're determined to make an archer, what else are you going to spend the skill points on once you've maxed out Sharpshooter? I guess you can take some priest spells and be a backup healer, but...

This is the problem with archers. You will need some melee skills to get Adrenaline Rush anyway, so you can go a bit up Hardiness and Parry if you want, or Priest Spells, or Tool Use and Cave Lore.

[Kreador]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Again, though... if you're determined to make an archer, what else are you going to spend the skill points on once you've maxed out Sharpshooter? I guess you can take some priest spells and be a backup healer, but...

This is the problem with archers. You will need some melee skills to get Adrenaline Rush anyway, so you can go a bit up Hardiness and Parry if you want, or Priest Spells, or Tool Use and Cave Lore.

Why do you say you will need some melee skills to get Adrenaline Rush? One of the parties I played for fun was two melee fighters, an archer, and a hedge wizard (priest/mage combo). The archer reached every battle discipline without a single point on the melee side of the tree. And, AR can actually be more useful for an archer than a melee fighter, as you can hit a wider range of targets without the need to move. With the melee characters, I'd get them into position to have multiple targets, then activate AR and get three attacks. With the archer, I could get 4 attacks each time, 5 if Battle Frenzy was up and the first shot was a half-cost sniper shot. When I was using Cloak of Bolts, before I could get to Cloak of Blades, the Archer was often my most effective fighter. Certainly was very helpful against any enemy that puts up a spine shield.

Of course, I was just playing on Normal. I'm not terribly interested in Torment difficulty and total optimization. The one thing I wish Jeff would do for archers was allow the characters to get the skill that some of the enemy Elite Archers get to spray arrows across an area.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

You will need some melee skills to get Adrenaline Rush anyway

Bottom-level skills aren't limited to 10 like other skills are, so you really don't need to invest in melee to get Adrenaline Rush, as long as you're okay with waiting a few levels for it: just put as many points in Bows as possible at the start and raise it once every level. Of course, you can do the same thing with melee fighters.

[ex post slarto]

Whoops, that was a brain fart. Indeed, putting those extra points in Bows is a much better use of them than putting them into Sniper is.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Whoops, that was a brain fart. Indeed, putting those extra points in Bows is a much better use of them than putting them into Sniper is.

Yeah, you should be raising Bows once every level until at least level 15-20, so the real question is what to do with the second skill point. I'd say for the early game the rough priority order for raising skills on a pure archer should be Bows > Cave Lore/Tool Use > Sharpshooter > Gymnastics > other bow skills. By level 10 you've probably put most of the points in Cave Lore and Tool Use that you'll need to, although you can stretch it out longer if you're willing to potentially have to wait for some things. That gives you 20 more levels to max out Sharpshooter and Gymnastics if you want, although neglecting Gymnastics for some Priest Spells and maybe Arcane Lore isn't am awful idea: you can never have too many healers, and the mental resistance is handy too.

[The Reverend]

Another nice thing about archers is that they usually get to act before anybody else (including monsters) because of their high dexterity. This (at least in my experience) appears to result in them getting targeted more by enemies. And (at least on hard, I've never tried torment), their high dexterity gives them a very good evasion chance against melee, and decent against fire and energy as well. My combats often start with my archer attacking a few enemies using adrenaline rush, and then the fastest of them attacking her and missing due to her high evasion, and then my other characters attacking.

 

Of course, this doesn't apply if you play with the setting where your party acts in roster order. I've been playing with that turned off because I prefer the way it was done in previous Avernums (action order based on stats).

[Øther]

My playthrough was on normal. I always do my first playthrough on games on the normal difficulty, and then increase it if I ever go back and do another game. In my party, DW, Archer, Priest, Mage, I might not have allocated the points the best way (I kept off the forums, mostly, to try to prevent any spoilers), but overall, I think my archer turned out fairly well. I did put many points into bows, maxed sharpshooter, gymnastics, and sniper, and some points into melee weaps (just in case). ALso a few into hardiness parry and ripostse once I got to high lvls and didn't really know what to do with the points, since all the ones I cared about were already maxed. I also put nearly all of the stat points into dex. I had him wear an ap up item (by the end, everyone else had 2 ap up items, so I gave him one to up the chances of more attacks per round) on a lot of fights, i could get 4, sometimes 5 attacks in using adrenaline rush. I did notice that he did quite a bit less damage than my DW, but I felt like those extra attacks made up for it. Being that he had such high evoidability, he wasn't hit very often by enemies. This didn't matter much around the end when I constantly was regenning and had awesome healing spells, but in the begining it was critical. More than a few times, I'd be battling a hard enemy, and at the end when they finally die, their summons killed all my other characters (this has happened so many freakin times, where I nearly burst a blood vessal when seeing an enemy mage/priest, because if I didn't kill it right away, its summons would roll right through me) but not my archer. It won by just not being hit and whittling down the enemies health and eventually killing it. On the occasions that this was the end boss at the end of a dungeon that this happened on, this was very helpful for those guys that always spawn at the exit. They just couldn't kill my archer. Without my archer, the beginning was so much more easier. I have to say, though, that around the end, my archer din't really play much of a role. My DW could make one thing dead at the start of the round, then my archer lets off 2 shots, usually not killing anything. then my priest walks up and kills everything on the map with divine retribution. Anything that didn't die is then blasted apart by my mage. SO ya, archer isn't that great or useful around the end. He can certainly still do stuff, just not nearly as effective, or so it seems.

[ipte]

For me the main point of an archer is to be able to hit any opponent, anywhere on the field of battle, as needed. After an area of effect spell there are often a couple of scattered opponents the archer can knock out with one shot without even moving; preventing them from attacking again can be worth a lot.

 

Having said that, I agree that in the later game, the archer's damage felt disproportionately low (even max Dexterity, all the best items, and all the right skills). An extra Mage instead would have been a lot more powerful, though also more expensive to buy spells for (I like the way AEftP makes you work for your magic).