Ponderings on damage reduction (A6)

[Brocktree]

Thanks to the input of Thuryl, I have calculated the % damage reduction (at the margin) per skill point invested for each level of hardiness, luck, resistance, parry (melee), parry (missile), and riposte (melee). Note that I considered the 10-point cap that exists for luck and riposte. I did *not* consider the pre-requisites required to unlock resistance, parry and riposte.

 

http://www.box.com/s/iagh83685texbt0iae1q

 

Note that I have highlighted in red the cut-off point where further investment in luck/hardiness/parry/riposte is less skill point efficient than an investment in resistance.

 

A couple of quick thoughts:

 

- Getting luck to 10, and hardiness to 12, before pumping resistance, is skill point efficient.

 

- With an optimal distribution of 150 points between resistance, hardiness, and luck (ignoring pre-reqs), you gain 60% elemental resistance.

 

- Parry is a bit trickier, as it does not reduce the damage of individual strikes, but reduces the average damage over a number of hits. As such, it lacks the predictability that luck/hardiness/resistance do. Parry is always more cost efficient than Resistance at reducing average damage over time for melee attacks, but not necessarily for missile attacks. On the other hand, it blocks both physical and elemental damage. At *least* six points in parry is a good investment.

 

- It probably isn't worth unlocking riposte, as even when you do, you will almost always have something better to invest skill points in.

[Aoslare]

Cool!

 

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but why do the % reduction numbers go up every other item? In other words, 1 Hardiness gives 2% per sp, but 2 Hardiness gives 2.04% per sp. Why is that?

 

It's also worth noting that damage reduction incorporates a significant random element. 50% resistance means you take 50% less damage on average, but it is possible to take almost all the damage or almost none of the damage, although it is not likely. Thus Parry is less predictable, but that does not mean regular resistance is completely predictable either.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: House of S

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but why do the % reduction numbers go up every other item? In other words, 1 Hardiness gives 2% per sp, but 2 Hardiness gives 2.04% per sp. Why is that?

Because each successive point of hardiness/luck/resistance/parry/riposte blocks a greater proportion of damage than the previous point.

Eg. 1st point of Hardiness reduces damage from 100 to 98. % of damage blocked = [(100-98)/100]*100% = 2%

2nd point of hardiness reduces damages from 98 to 96. % of damage blocked = [(98-96)/98]*98 = 2.04%

[Aoslare]

*facepalm*

 

It's the same thing I pointed out in the other topic. Whoops. My bad :-D

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

*facepalm*

It's the same thing I pointed out in the other topic. Whoops. My bad :-D

don't worry, it took brocktree a while to fully understand it too

Interestingly, the take-home message here is that Hardiness and Luck are not actually as bad in comparison to Parry as is widely believed. It's definitely worth getting the first few points of each.

[Hume]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

A couple of quick thoughts:

- Getting luck to 10, and hardiness to 12, before pumping resistance, is skill point efficient.

- With an optimal distribution of 150 points between resistance, hardiness, and luck (ignoring pre-reqs), you gain 60% elemental resistance.

- At *least* six points in parry is a good investment.

- It probably isn't worth unlocking riposte, as even when you do, you will almost always have something better to invest skill points in.

Nice job!

Resistance does not worth the skill points. It does not work for physical damage. So is reposte, which only works for melee attacks.

By the end of game, each party member will have a total of near 300 skill points. Usually about half goes to help survival, and about 50 of which goes to endurance, so 100 or so points to spread to these skills.

My choice would be, 10 hardiness, 10 luck, 8 parry, 106 points and will reduce damage by about half.
(10 luck because it also provide the important mental resistance and other benefits like bow accuracy)

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: Hume

Resistance does not worth the skill points. It does not work for physical damage.

I'm not sure that I agree with your rationale here. Physical damage is by far the *easiest* to build up resistance to. What you really need a boost in is energy and fire resistance, which completely ruin your day in later battles.

Quote:

So is reposte, which only works for melee attacks.

Yeah, riposte doesn't seem that good.

Quote:

My choice would be, 10 hardiness, 10 luck, 8 parry, 106 points and will reduce damage by about half.
(10 luck because it also provide the important mental resistance and other benefits like bow accuracy)

Sounds good to me.

[Harehunter]

A few points in Gymnastics doesn't hurt either, plus it gives benefit to offensive skills. I think Resistance is important as well, because it defends against all types of damage. But I think the other numbers given are pretty good.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

A few points in Gymnastics doesn't hurt either, plus it gives benefit to offensive skills. I think Resistance is important as well, because it defends against all types of damage. But I think the other numbers given are pretty good.

Gymnastics gives no benefit whatsoever to offensive skills, and it also does not given any kind of bonus to damage reduction. As Thurilith said in the other thread, on Torment, the dodge bonus is also completely irrelevant.

[Brocktree]

Yesterday I was trying to create a mage character with decent defense. When I attempted to unlock parry, I realised that quite a few skill points are wasted in pre-reqs. I started to wonder exactly how many skill points of parry you need to purchase before it actually becomes a better investment than simply sinking your points into hardiness.

 

I discussed how to do this with Thuryl. Since the skill points invested in the pre-requisites are essentially 'fixed costs', they can't be incorporated into marginal analysis. He suggested that I calculate cumulative damage reduction/cumulative skill points for each level of hardiness, luck, resistance etc.

 

http://www.box.com/s/xf2dcfusfcc29451nf8g

 

Note that in the above, when calculating values for resistance, I did *not* include the skill point investment for endurance and hardiness pre-reqs. You will almost certainly invest in some endurance, and trying to incorporate the damage reduction from hardiness is a pain. I did consider dexterity, however.

[Hume]

Tell you a secret we all know:

Jeff made Avernum 6 that you can refund your points used in unlocking other skill.

For example, you put your points into strength and melee, which unlocks blademaster, you put 6 into blademaster. Now before closing the window, you can decrease you strenth and melee, while keeping you skill points invested in blademaster.

[Randomizer]

That's been a flaw in the system for several games.

[Brocktree]

Oh wow, I never knew about that little trick. I don't think it would be intentional though.

[Brocktree]

Done some more number crunching:

-------------------

Assume 150 skill points to spend:

 

100% of skill points in hardiness = 46% damage reduction

 

100% of skill points in parry = 51% damage reduction (melee only)

 

50/50 split = 48% damage reduction

 

80/20 split in favour of parry = 54% damage reduction

 

-------------

 

If 110 skill points

 

100% of skill points in hardiness = 40% damage reduction

 

100% of skill points in parry = 39% damage reduction (melee only)

 

50/50 split = 37% damage reduction

 

80/20 split in favour of parry = 41% damage reduction

 

40/60 split in favour of hardiness = 34% damage reduction

 

-------------

 

If 80 skill points

 

100% of skill points in hardiness = 32% damage reduction

 

100% of skill points in parry = 27% damage reduction (melee only)

 

50/50 split = 27% damage reduction

 

80/20 split in favour of parry = 32% damage reduction

 

 

---------------------------------

 

As you can see, you start to gain defensive benefits from parry once you have spent approximately 80 points between hardiness and parry. Ergo. You need to invest at least 80 points in hardiness and parry before your investment in parry actually begins to pay off, in regards to melee damage reduction.

 

*But*

 

- Even if you invest a whopping 150 skill points optimally between parry and hardiness, you only gain an additional 6 percentage points to reduce *melee* damage, in comparison to investing all those points in hardiness.

 

- More importantly, this 6 percentage point damage reduction only applies to *melee* damage. With the 80/20 split, you will be taking much more damage from ranged attacks and aura attacks, than had you invested all those points in hardineess.

 

- Hardiness also reduces the damage duration from poison, acid, and lightning effects.

 

- Hardiness enables you to resist curse, weaken and slow.

---------------------------------------------------

 

Conclusion: Parry is vastly over-rated. Even with a high skill point investment in parry to offset the pre-requisite costs, the payoff is still less than had you simply taken those points and invested them in luck and hardiness.

[Hume]

You do not know how to use your table to spend you points.

 

For example, if concerning only melee damage, a total of 104 points, with 8 in hardiness, 6 luck, 12 parry results 53% damage reduction. And there must be something wrong in your calculation

[Brocktree]

Huh? 12 in parry costs 99 skill points, if you factor in pre-requisites (+33 skill points)