A6 - Help on party composition appreciated

[Laikos]

I'm new to Avernum coming over from Avadon. One large complaint of mine in Avadon was the rather simplistic character progression... and whooo boy this is not a problem here!

 

I'm intending to do a hard playthrough for my first go at this with a Tank/dps/priest/mage combo. It is my plan to have the tank use a shield and fast track to the parry and riposte lines. Dps I haven't decided on an archer or a melee dual wielder --any suggestions? I couldn't really keep agro on the tank in Avadon and I'm worried the same will happen here and my poor rogue will break. Priest and mage will be pure.

 

So... Main questions:

 

Is the xp penalty for using the non human races a major issue? Do you suggest that I MUST use <x> race with <y> class or is it not much of a big deal?

 

What positive perks are unusually helpful for each of my classes long term? What negative perks do you typically use for character archetypes?

 

I see that training can get me through most of the utility based checks in the game like nature and arcane lore, but should I have a certain amount to begin with to serve me early on?

 

How far would you go into defensive style skills with the dual wielding dps character?

 

 

 

Thanks again, I'm quite new and reading through the posts but it'd a bit too much information for me to parse right now. Any tips greatly appreciated.

[Alorael at Large]

Experience penalties are not a huge deal. Taking non-human races is a great idea if you want to use poles (slith) or bows (nephil). Nephil isn't bad for any characters, really.

 

Elite Warrior, Natural Mage, and Pure Spirit are obvious choices for anyone using weapons, magic, or priest spells. Deadeye is similar for bows, but bows simply aren't a good primary source of damage. They're great additions to characters, but you don't want to rely on them. Divinely Touched will slow experience, but it's great for all characters. Almost certainly better than the levels you lose, in fact; I'd highly recommend it.

 

Because of the way experience gained scales with level, experience penalties and bonuses are much less significant than they look. The negative traits are all worthless. Some aren't terrible in themselves, but you want to spend your two trait points on something good.

 

In general, splitting tank and DPS isn't really meaningful. You can't manage agg carefully enough to keep enemies off of melee fighters at all, so anyone fighting must be able to tank. And anyone tanking should be able to do as much damage as possible, right? Dual-wielding is fine, but armor will take care of most of your tanking needs; you don't need to pile on huge amounts of skills, although Parry is nice.

 

—Alorael, who thinks it's not a bad idea to spread out some of the lore skills among your party early on. Just a few points will get you through the beginning, and it's a pain to have to come back and find the things you missed later.

[Randomizer]

By the end of the game a 10% experience change means 2 levels and almost anything as a positive trait or race will give you more in skills than the skill points. Unless you are doing a challenge or hate a race than nonhumans is the best way to go. It will help you get the combat skills for battle disciplines much sooner.

 

The experience system gives you less points at higher levels so using negative traits means starting out faster before you plateau. Sluggish is the worst trait in the game and hardest to overcome even in the earlier games without the lower experience at higher levels.

 

Having arcane lore and nature lore early means access to some caches for money and a few spells. But since you can train in them in Gnass and at a cheaper cost after that city's mission you don't waste much time waiting.

 

Dual wielding works great and with so many great swords you can get by without a shield since some swords have defensive bonuses later in the game.

[Laikos]

Thanks a ton to both of you... it's good to see a game with such a hardcore following doesn't also go with the "go elsewhere and research, noob" knee jerk reaction =).

 

So riposte isn't a huge deal? I looked at the ability to redirect an attack back to the attacker as pretty godly.

[Randomizer]

Riposte is nice for the extra chance to avoid damage, but except in Avadon and Geneforge it doesn't do much damage. I've never seen the damage do much more than 10.

 

You can't really unlock it until the last 10% of the game.

[Lilith]

Yeah, Riposte is okay as long as you think of it as a second layer of Parry that only works for melee attacks and is more difficult to unlock. A melee fighter that specifically builds toward it can have meaningful amounts of Riposte by around 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through the game, but the prereqs for Riposte are themselves pretty good so it's not like your fighter will be worthless in the meantime.

[Laikos]

Sorry... last question. When training is it best to hold off til as late as possible in the game to get the free skill points, or do I just grab when I can.

 

P.S. Wow all 8K+ posts in this thread... Thank you for your kindness.

[Randomizer]

Training can only be done up to the first 3 levels so if you have used skill points, then you won't be able to train as much or not at all.

 

This is why some players hold off on using skill points except for essential skills. Others don't want to wait and min/max every decision.

[Laikos]

Okay, running into some snags. Either hard is a seriously difficult endeavor or my build is wrong. I'm using choke points and retreat pulling... pre buffing before a serious fight and using debuffs liberally. Haven't been using wands much. I've cleared all of the central cave and am now pushing east to the great portal.

 

Warrior (pike):

Lizard

7 Strength, 4 Dex, 6 Endurance

7 Pole, 10 Quick Action

5 Hardiness 2 Defense

4 Parry, 7 Blademaster, 1 Riposte (mainly from items)

 

Warrior (dual wield):

Kitten

Gimped from taking tool to 11

5 Str, Dex, and End

7 Melee 8 Quick Action

2 Hardiness

2 Quick Strike, 2 Blademaster, 1 Anatomy, 3 Gymnatics, 3 Dual wield

 

Pure Mage

Pure Wizard

 

 

I'm really not sure how far to take quick action with my pikeman before shifting back to melee... and also I'm unsure when to upgrade base stats for both the melee characters.

 

The dual wielder feels like he's hitting enough but once again I'm not sure how far to push with quick action or strike as opposed to base stats or another category I haven't unlocked.

 

Some fights are taking me 6 reloads before I come out on top, and some are just plain impossible for me (the lizard ambush in the north cave remote area or the demon south of the great portal)

 

Any suggestions on how to develop my melee from here?

[Lilith]

Personally, I'd start investing more in Endurance and Parry to improve your fighters' survivability. You want to have like 10 Endurance by the end of the game, and it's never too early to start.

 

You should probably ignore dexterity for the most part: it's only a useful offensive skill for archers, and it's not really much good as a defensive skill on difficulties above Normal.

[Randomizer]

I think you need a little more dexterity to unlock parry, but anymore isn't that useful.

 

Also it doesn't hurt to spend money on skill training east of Almaria and visiting the priest in Dharmon for the blessings since that benefits the whole party. It's a lot of money, but there isn't anything else to spend it on until you need to get spells.

[Harehunter]

This is about the point I find that having your priest learn some of the more powerful attack spells that the mage can wield comes in very handy. You don't have to advance him very high, just enough so he can lend a hand with your ranged attacks. I also find that having your mage learn priest spells improves your chances of surviving. At some point in time you will need more than one PC who can Unshackle Mind or cast the Major healing spells.

 

Let your fighters bless themselves. Two or three Blessings can stack up and really improve your combat effectiveness, and letting your fighters do that frees up your priest, who now should also be able to Haste your party as well. It doesn't hurt to have your fighters be able to heal themselves as well. You don't have to invest heavily in Int and Priest. Level 5 in both should be sufficient. It's either that or you'll have to start lugging around a bunch of potions. I prefer to sell those for $$.

[Aoslare]

The mage's attack spells aren't actually more powerful than the priest's.

[Harehunter]

Spray Acid cast multiple times in a single round can be very powerful. Two slows on a monster can really give an advantage to your fighters to get extra rounds to kill it. Haste only affects one PC at a time. Two spell casters can get all members of your party hastened more quickly. Lightning Spray is quite powerful for your mid-level mage.

Two castings of it in one round can be very effective.

 

There is a parallel discussion on this topic on the Avernum 5 board. I won't replicate it here.

[Aoslare]

Multiple Spray Acids is a huge waste once you have decent skill in magic since there is a cap on how much acid damage you can do per round. Two Slows does NOT increase the slow effect in any way -- it makes it last longer, but that's it, and remember the Slow only has a chance of making them miss a turn; if you're going to kill them within 2 rounds anyway you may never see it do anything. And Haste is no longer a really critical spell, but it can still be cast before combat begins in almost every case.

[Earth]

party has 2 fighters and 1 mage and 1 wizard, so who does healing on party?

[Harehunter]

I usually run with 2 fighter/priests (1 natural warrior, one heavy tool use), one priest/mage (pure spirit) and one mage/priest (natural mage). Preparing for combat is started with fighter 1 bless, fighter 2 protect, priest/mage haste himself, mage/priest haste himself, then bless again, protect again, haste fighter 1 and 2, leaving my mage/priest two spells to caste. Should someone need healing, any one can do it. It depends on the particular battle on who I pick for the task; what is the major vulnerability of the monster I am fighting. If it is physical damage, then the fighters concentrate on that, while the priest/mage does the healing. If the monster is resistant to physical, but vulnerable to fire, the fighters act as blockers, healing themselves, while my two spell casters flame its butt.

 

As for the compounding of haste and slow, I find that whenever fighting an enemy mage, if I have only one haste spell cast on myself, one slow spell will cause me to be slowed, but if I cast two haste spells, it takes two slow spells cast on me to take effect. It also seems to work the other way when I cast multiple slow spells on mages. They cast haste on themselves, and they only become unslowed, but not hasted. More than two slows on an enemy does not make any difference. As you point out, it does not make them any slower, but it does reinforce the spell with regards to being able to undo the spell.

 

The thing I like about Acid Spray is that it lasts for many rounds. I hit them once or twice, then hit them with something else, while the acid continues to work. Most enemies are vulnerable to acid even though they be resistant to other damage and serves as an extra attack per round. The amount of damage may not be that great in your opinion, but IMHO anything that add to the amount of damage in one round is worth doing.

 

I am a strong adherent to the combined arms philosophy. If I could deploy air strikes in Avernum I would. As it is, I settle for Armored Infantry, light infantry, combat support with light artillery, and heavy artillery. If an opponent is only vulnerable to physical damage, then even the cooks and medics will become infantry, if that is what it takes to win.

[Laikos]

Argh, sorry. I listed "wizard" instead of priest, haha, it must have been very late when I posted.

 

I'm upping my endurance to 10 as was suggested, but I'm really really unhappy with my dual wielder. I'm up to the tower of the magi and have killed the laughing demon and am generally operating in the eastern cavern (not sure what % completion I'm at).

 

I've dumped all knowledge elixirs to my dual wielder since he's gimped from the tool use points. Just the same, right now he's hitting with 1-2 flurries (haste) for only about 20-60 total damage per flurry... whereas my polearm user is hitting for 50-90 sometimes twice, with a second combat round from haste (!!!!). I almost feel my dual wielder is weaker than the summoned pets.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Repost of stats:

 

Warrior (pike):

Lizard

7 Strength, 4 Dex, 9 Endurance

7 Pole, 10 Quick Action

5 Hardiness 2 Defense

4 Parry, 7 Blademaster, 1 Riposte (mainly from items)

 

Warrior (dual wield):

Kitten

Gimped from taking tool to 11

5 Str/Dex and 8 End

7 Melee 10 Quick Action

2 Hardiness

4 Quick Strike, 2 Blademaster, 1 Anatomy, 3 Gymnatics, 3 Dual wield.... (Use mercuric leather BP? is the STR loss net positive?)

 

P.S. I'm hoarding every resist item I get with a character completely full on alt gear... will that pay off late game for specific encounters or should I dump the gear for cash?

[Randomizer]

Pole weapons always do more damage than swords, however as a dual wielding swordsman your two hits should combine for more damage than a single pole weapon attack.

 

Increasing dual wielding will increase your damage since there is a slight damage penalty that goes away at higher levels of dual wielding. See here for an analysis in the topic.

[Lilith]

Dual Wielding skill shouldn't actually be a high priority: most of the time, you're better off raising Strength, weapon skills or defensive skills. Dual-wielding gets significantly better in the second half of the game, when you find weapons like the Frozen Blade that do broadsword damage but are light enough to wield in the offhand.

[Earth]

what weapons (names aka flame sword etc) your fighters use?

 

merc. leather suits better for casters since warriors have much better armors available.

[Txgangsta]

Don't know the exact names, but the flame sword, the Ice sword, and the Oozing Blade (I know that one!) are great for dual wield, the Oozing Blade especially because of the acid damage.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

I've dumped all knowledge elixirs to my dual wielder since he's gimped from the tool use points.

That is what I usually end up doing. You need one PC with at least 12 tool use toward the end, but it gets more and more expensive as you go along. And you definitely can't neglect your fighting skills or else you end up with a PC who is useless in combat. Knowledge brews are the only way to do both.

[Txgangsta]

Researched a bit and here are the best off-hand blades for you:

 

"Flaming, Oozing, and Frozen Blades, the Radiant Soulblade, the Ghostly Blade, the Stunning Blade, and the Discipline Blade." - Slarty

[Earth]

Short swords might be better to give casters and fighters use broadswords.

[Laikos]

I currently have a singing rapier (10-20 +1 blademaster +2 quick action) and nephil warblade (10-20 +1 Str/dex -10% fatigue) on my dual wielder.

 

Not sure if I should up to the blessed broadsword (12-36 no stats)

[Lilith]

Do it. In addition to generally having higher base damage, broadswords receive larger damage bonuses from high Strength and Melee Weapons skill.