Geneforge 2 - Questions for the Veterans

[SpaceCadetHX]

First let me say that I only play Geneforge 2. I hope my questions don't seem too stupid but here goes.

 

I play a Shaper and the way I play RPG's, I like to try and have a party for the entire game and not switch them up for any reason. That said, I have a plan for my shaper creations and I had some questions about skill points and my long term creation strategy.

 

As I level up and add points to Fire/Battle/Magic Shaping does that have any effect on my current creations? Meaning that if I have a Thahd I am leveling up, and after I level up my shaper, I add a point to Battle Shaping, does my Thadh get any bonus for that or would that be for only new Battle Creations?

[Dikiyoba]

Points in shaping skills only apply to the level of new creations. However, since your creations earn a bit of your experience and level up, they can get pretty powerful if you've had them for a while.

 

Dikiyoba.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Thank you

 

Additional question/advice

 

Seeing that I plan to level up a few creations early and use them through the entire game, my thinking is that it would be smart to use my skill points to enhance my magic attacks and essence pool instead of using it for any shaping skills. Does this seem logical with how I play?

 

Also, if anyone would know, what would be the quickest route to learning the spell Dryak?

[Mod.]

The soonest place to learn create drayk is not far past the secret tunnel (if you have gotten there yet), but it is for loyalists only. After that, you will have to wait a while i think.

 

If you create creations at the beginning and plan on keeping them, I would probably make cryoas. You can get them by purchasing 2 points in create fyora from the drypeak shaping teacher (you must do this first), and then reading his book in the room past the battle alphas (you may need a living tool or two).

 

If you don't plan on making more creations, its logical to not bump up shaping skills after you create them. However, you may find lower tier creations dying on you, and you may want to bump up those skills if you want to replace them with something more powerful. If you want to keep those creations alive, put some points into healing craft and blessing magic.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Thank you.

 

Another question, would it be very hard to have a shaper who is very effective with Baton's through the entire game as opposed to putting points into offensive magic?

 

My concern is that I will not have enough skill points go that route.

 

In my past games, I have focused on Shaping but used magic to supplement. I have never tried using Batons or level up using a baton as a shaper. This time around thought about using a Baton for damage and save any magic ability points for buffing my creations and healing.

 

Thoughts?

[Dantius]

Batons have a higher damage output per skill point invested than battle magic does (d12 for reapers, the highest BM gets is d10 for Kill), but as a Shaper it costs more skill points.

 

However, the governing attribute for Missiles (which you'll also be investing in), Dexterity, makes you a lot harder to hit, so you won't take as much damage and can invest less points in Endurance.

 

It's really your call, the paths are probably equal in terms of damage output in the end, so it's just a matter of flavor.

[ex post slarto]

Dexterity does increase your chance to dodge attacks. However, note that this is totally different from armor (reduces damage) and HP (increases ability to take damage) and unlike those attributes, dodge rate is essentially impossible to get a bonus out of against high-level enemies (and medium-level enemies, too, on the higher difficulty settings).

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

Dexterity does increase your chance to dodge attacks. However, note that this is totally different from armor (reduces damage) and HP (increases ability to take damage) and unlike those attributes, dodge rate is essentially impossible to get a bonus out of against high-level enemies (and medium-level enemies, too, on the higher difficulty settings).

Yes, but still. Getting hit 5 times for 40 damage with more armor and getting hit 4 times for 50 damage with more DEX will net you the same total damage.

I'm aware I'm simplifying things a little, but there are certainly noticeably fewer hits on the PC in the beginning and middle of the game if you pump DEX, and by the end it's possible to get Reaper and Submission batons, and enemies can't deal any damage at all if they have no AP's left, so like I said, the paths are probably equal in terms of damage taken.

[ex post slarto]

What paths are equal? Was somebody advocating for a Shaper who invests in Endurance at ALL? In Geneforge 2? Bleah!

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

What paths are equal? Was somebody advocating for a Shaper who invests in Endurance at ALL? In Geneforge 2? Bleah!

The path of battle magic/INT versus missile weapons/DEX. SpaceCadet asked it in his post:

Quote:

Another question, would it be very hard to have a shaper who is very effective with Baton's through the entire game as opposed to putting points into offensive magic?

And a few points are needed to survive some of the environmental hazards that you encounter. I believe that the crystal cave zone can do 80+ points damage in one go in the inner circles, with armor, which can one shot you even at medium-high levels.

[ex post slarto]

We've analyzed this before. You CAN have a shaper who uses batons effectively. Strictly speaking, it won't work as well as a shaper who focuses entirely on shaping, or who uses a bit of battle magic, and it will require greater investment than either. But it is possible.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

We've analyzed this before. You CAN have a shaper who uses batons effectively. Strictly speaking, it won't work as well as a shaper who focuses entirely on shaping, or who uses a bit of battle magic, and it will require greater investment than either. But it is possible.

...That was exactly what I said. Did you read my first post?

[ex post slarto]

That's not exactly what you said. You implied that the paths are of similar effectiveness; I disagreed.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Another seperate question and please correct me if my thinking is wrong.

 

(If anyone knows of a link to a chart that shows the base values of HP, Energy and Essence, I would appreciated it greatly)

 

When you level up, you get a boost to HP, essence and energy automatically. If you were to add points to End/Int, would that just give you a base bonus amount for the point you invested?? --or-- would that have an effect on the HP, Essence/Energy number you get for each new level? Additionally, if more End/Int means you get more HP per level, would it be retroactive as you progress?

 

P.S. - In regards to my other questions about Magic vs Batons. Thanks for the input but I am going to stick with Magic because it seems more effective to continue to invest in INT and have that skill benefit both Shaping and Magic as opposed to investing in DEX and INT. At least, that is how I am thinking.

[Mod.]

I was going to post the base HP, energy and essence for each class from my G2 scripts, except that I'm afraid I might have edited them some time ago.

 

Instead, looking to the walkthrough by Matt P. for G2, I found this:

 

Guardian:

HP (Hit Points)- 24 + 5/8 * End * (Level + 1)

SP (Spell Points)- 6 + 1/2 * Int * (Level + 1)

EP (Essence Points)- 6 + 3/4 * Int * (Level + 1)

 

Agent:

HP- 20 + 1/2 * End * (Level + 1)

SP- 6 + 3/2 * Int * (Level + 1)

EP- 6 + 3/4 * Int * (Level + 1)

 

Shaper:

HP- 12 + 3/8 * End * (Level + 1)

SP- 6 + Int * (Level + 1)

EP- 6 + Int * (Level + 1)

 

 

This means for shaper as an example, their base HP is 12. Then for additional HP, the formula is 3/8 multiplied by your endurance, then multiplied by one plus your character's level. As you can see, the different classes start with different amounts and increase by different amounts. This goes along with their skills, such as high Essence for shapers.

 

Hope that was useful.

 

 

[SpaceCadetHX]

Thanks for that chart, looking at my old saved game, I have a level 13 Shaper with 2 END and he has 22 HP. I don't see how that can be right based off that chart or am I reading it wrong?

 

Also, I don't have version 1.0.2, I am using 1.0.1, perhaps that is the reason.

[ex post slarto]

No, the stat formulas in those FAQs are not 100% accurate. They are close, but a few are off.

[Mod.]

Highly unlikely, but if he used scientific rounding (22.5 rounds to 22) it would work.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Mod.

scientific rounding (22.5 rounds to 22)

What?

[SpaceCadetHX]

Sorry for another stupid question, I tried to lookup the information on the internet and in the walkthrough and by searching this board but came up empty.

 

I understand what increasing Shaping skills does, as in being able to create higher level creations but..

 

Increasing spell level does exactly what? As in, what is the difference in having Kill at level 1 and at level 3? I assume there is a power increase in the spell? or it costs less to cast?

 

If anyone knows a past thread that has this detailed, it would also be appreciated.

[Mod.]

Hmm, I think I remember hearing that it adds another die to the roll. Can't say much about it myself, maybe someone else posting would like to elaborate.

 

Originally Posted By: Master1

Originally Posted By: Mod.

scientific rounding (22.5 rounds to 22)

What?

 

From Wikipedia :

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia

A tie-breaking rule that is even less biased is round half to even, namely

 

* If the fraction of y is 0.5, then q is the even integer nearest to y.

 

Thus, for example, +23.5 becomes +24, +22.5 becomes +22, −22.5 becomes −22, and −23.5 becomes −24.

 

This method also treats positive and negative values symmetrically, and therefore is free of overall bias if the original numbers are positive or negative with equal probability. In addition, for most reasonable distributions of y values, the expected (average) value of the rounded numbers is essentially the same as that of the original numbers, even if the latter are all positive (or all negative). However, this rule will still introduce a positive bias for even numbers (including zero), and a negative bias for the odd ones.

 

This variant of the round-to-nearest method is also called unbiased rounding (ambiguously, and a bit abusively), convergent rounding, statistician's rounding, Dutch rounding, Gaussian rounding, or bankers' rounding. This is widely used in bookkeeping.

 

It is the default rounding mode used in IEEE 754 computing functions and operators (and in various computing languages such as ANSI/ISO C, C++, and Java, for their float and double types).

 

What do you know, 22.5 was an example in the wikipedia definition. As it says computing languages use it, that may be the case here.

[ex post slarto]

Yes, it basically adds another die to the roll, and is similar to adding points to Spellcraft or a spell skill -- but it only boosts that one spell. It should also increase accuracy by 5%, but this is not relevant for most spells. That's all it does.

[SpaceCadetHX]

I just want to make sure I am understanding correctly about some items and the relation to creations.

 

I wanted to know if you always needed to keep some items equiped for the effect or if they are just for creation only. I know charms need to just be in my inventory to have effects.

 

For example, my thinking is that items like the Roamertooth Band should only be used BEFORE you create a fire based creation so you get added levels from the start? After the creation is made, take the band off and replace it with something useful because the creature level will not change once the band is taken off??

 

The Projection Band gives some resistance and +7 to armor for all creations. I assume this is NOT related to having the band equiped when you "make" new creations. As in, if you are wearing the band, all creations instantly get 7 armor and resistance and when you take it off they lose the same benefits??

 

 

Am I thinking correctly?

[ex post slarto]

You are thinking correctly on all counts.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Kind of an off the wall question but I am trying to prepare as best I can for the immediate future of my game.

 

Does anyone recall or know how much it costs to train Dryak at the Upper Research Halls? In everything I have read, it says you can be trained cheaply in this skill if you are aligned correctly. I am trying to save every last coin but didn't know the price.

[Xoid]

Prices should be 'very reasonable' if you're with the right faction, otherwise they'll be exorbitant. Create Drayk will cost 1600 at the lower price. NB: aligning with the faction in question will prevent you ever being able to align with its diametric opposite, which is the reason I always avoided joining it despite the much needed training. You can always join the faction that earns you a discount at the Upper Research Halls at a later date...

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Xoid

Prices should be 'very reasonable' if you're with the right faction, otherwise they'll be exorbitant. Create Drayk will cost 1600 at the lower price. NB: aligning with the faction in question will prevent you ever being able to align with its diametric opposite, which is the reason I always avoided joining it despite the much needed training. You can always join the faction that earns you a discount at the Upper Research Halls at a later date...

Thanks for that, around 1600 gold should be just right for what I am trying to do. Appreciate you looking that up in your game or wherever you managed to find it online.

I know how to join the Servants then go to the Upper Research Halls and get access to the spell and the discounted price but I had no idea how much to save.

Call me crazy but my plan is to make my "party" of creations as early as possible and then level them up and try and beat the game that way. As of right now I only have a Thadh and a Cryoa but will soon be adding a Plated Clawbug and then a Dryak followed by a 2nd Dryak. After that, the final creation would be much later in the game when I can create a Rotgroth.

[Xoid]

Originally Posted By: SpaceCadetHX

Appreciate you looking that up in your game or wherever you managed to find it online.

Quickly loaded the Research Hall script, copied the relevant section, pasted it to Shanti's dialogue in the entry valley and fired up a new game. Took all of thirty seconds. No prob.

As for the plated clawbug idea? I've been meaning to get around to trying a mixed group with a levelled up plated clawbug backbone. I'm of the opinion that the extra two AP they get should make each levelled up plated clawbug a downright deadly critter, especially for the essence cost. I'd love an update on how it performs.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Xoid

Originally Posted By: SpaceCadetHX

Appreciate you looking that up in your game or wherever you managed to find it online.

Quickly loaded the Research Hall script, copied the relevant section, pasted it to Shanti's dialogue in the entry valley and fired up a new game. Took all of thirty seconds. No prob.

As for the plated clawbug idea? I've been meaning to get around to trying a mixed group with a levelled up plated clawbug backbone. I'm of the opinion that the extra two AP they get should make each levelled up plated clawbug a downright deadly critter, especially for the essence cost. I'd love an update on how it performs.

I am anxious to see how it does as well. Like you said, it has 2 AP and also has respectable armor (8) so I hope it does well in the late game. Mostly, I think they are pretty cool creatures and have a unique attack sound so I like them a lot. I assume with enough points into STR the low attack rating can be offset a little.

Right now, my main concern is getting money and essence as quickly as possible while trying NOT to clear that many levels/quests. I want to simply create my party so everyone can benefit from the experience gained from kills/quests. I need the money to buy Create Clawbug 2 times, then use the Create Clawbug book in Sharon's Grove. I already have enough essense to create the Plated Clawbug (59) but I have to get 75 more essence and 1600 Gold to create my first Dryak and that isn't very far away at this point either. My thinking is that Dryak's are already really strong so whenever I manage to get the Essence and cash for them, it will already be strong enough. The clawbug however, I want that thing ASAP so I can level it up as much as possible. I did the same with my Thahd and Cryoa and had both created when I had only cleared 2 levels so they are leveling up nicely.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Right now I have 2 good belts and I don't know what 1 of the effects does.....

 

Student's Belt

+1 Intelligence

+1 Levels Damage in Combat

 

What exactly does +1 Levels Damage in Combat do??

 

The other belt in question is:

Girdle of Insight

+1 Intelligence

+1 Intelligence of all Creations

[Randomizer]

+1 levels damage in combat does one more die of damage. If you read the instruction manual, there is a section giving spells and mentioned in each attack spell is the damage it does.

[A less presumptuous name.]

As a shaper, neither secondary mod is particularly useful. If your creations are getting mental effects a lot, go with the second. If you like to join the fight, go with the first.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Sorry about that, I missed it in the manual. However, I just found

 

Girdle of Strength

+1 Str

+1 Str of Creations

 

I am going to use that instead of the other belts as it seems to help me more in combat since I have a pretty large essence pool.

 

Additional question, I want my Shaper to act a little faster in combat since my DEX is only at 2. I was wondering which skill would have more effect to let me act faster: DEX or Quick Action?

[Mod.]

Quote:

Additional question, I want my Shaper to act a little faster in combat since my DEX is only at 2. I was wondering which skill would have more effect to let me act faster: DEX or Quick Action?

Unless you have a very melee based shaper (which isn't very efficient use of skillpoints), go with dexterity. Quick action can give you a chance of a second hit with a melee weapon, but unless you use melee a lot, its not worth the skill points. Dexterity on the other hand is the same skill point cost regardless of class, and it will give you a boost to your missile accuracy, and well as your ability to dodge them. So quick action is pretty much a waste of skill points for a shaper.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Mod.

Quote:

Additional question, I want my Shaper to act a little faster in combat since my DEX is only at 2. I was wondering which skill would have more effect to let me act faster: DEX or Quick Action?

Unless you have a very melee based shaper (which isn't very efficient use of skillpoints), go with dexterity. Quick action can give you a chance of a second hit with a melee weapon, but unless you use melee a lot, its not worth the skill points. Dexterity on the other hand is the same skill point cost regardless of class, and it will give you a boost to your missile accuracy, and well as your ability to dodge them. So quick action is pretty much a waste of skill points for a shaper.

I am not melee based at all and the only reason I ask is because everywhere I read it says both Quick Action and DEX make you act faster in combat. I was just wondering if anyone knew which has more of an impact on the combat sequence. I am leaning towards putting a few points into DEX but figured to ask the pro's before investing.
Naturally, it would be a huge advantage for me to act before my creations by casting spells if possible, or if I need to run away and save my life. It is very annoying when enemies come right after me when all those meaty creations are on the front lines!

ps - The Plated Clawbug is performing wonderfully. He completely wrecks things when he hits. Granted, his hit % is still the main problem but I am pumping points into STR to help offset that. When he hits things 2 times in a row, they just die. He can also take damage very well since he has natural armor plus a boost from my ring. (Projection Band - +7 Armor) He could use more Health in general so I will have to get some points into Endurance as time goes on. So far, he is outstanding.

[A less presumptuous name.]

If his hit % is a problem, add into his dext.

[SpaceCadetHX]

Originally Posted By: Master1

If his hit % is a problem, add into his dext.

According to the Creation Guide,
STR increases Damange and Chance to Hit 5%
DEX increases Chance to Avoid Attack 5%

[A less presumptuous name.]

Oh. Well, I never had issues with creations hitting, and I haven't played G2 in a long time. Dex seems completely worthless if your creations are anything but pathetic.