A6 - Mages/Priests and Battle Disciplines

[Californian]

I'm a casual player (on "normal") who's addicted to Avernum (actually I started with the original Nethergate). I have enormous fun with these games. However, I'm never going to be a hardcore player and advance to a singleton on torment.

 

That being said, I've not really paid much attention to the stats and how you get battle disciplines. Mine just sort of pop up, or I get them with training. Sometimes they disappear when I change gear. I did just see the nifty list, and copied down how you unlock these things for a later replay. However, I still wonder (and reveal my ignorance with this question):

 

Are battle disciplines good for mages and priests? My guy/gal are just straight mage/priest types. I doubt I'll ever get too fancy with them. But do the disciplines aid the spells cast?

 

And BTW, is it worth it to buy the expensive blessings from the priestess in Dharmon?

 

It's a bit late in the game for that, as I'm working on Melanchion's quests, but I do wonder for my next time through.

 

Thanks!

[*i]

Battle disciplines do indeed help attack spells.

 

The priestess in Dharmon is probably the best deal in the game.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: *i

The priestess in Dharmon is probably the best deal in the game.

The combat blessings are better than the spellcraft blessing (because they help unlock battle disciplines). The spellcraft blessing is still good value, though.

Battle disciplines become incredibly useful for spellcasters once you get to Adrenaline Rush. Imagine your mage being able to cast Fireblast three times in one round.

[Jerakeen]

Yes, with two casters and Adrenaline Rush, you can wipe out many large groups in a single round.

 

Battle Frenzy was amazing for spellcasters in A5, but apparently it's been nerfed. I don't know if it's worth trying for now.

[Randomizer]

According to Slarty's analysis Battle Frenzy no longer provides a damage increase. However the other battle disciplines are still helpful. Well Aimed Blow provides a 50% damage increase for the first hit, Mighty Blow gives 100% damage increase for the first hit, and Adrenaline rush gives at least 3 attacks in that round. So increasing damage for a spell is always worth it.

 

It's easier if you use nephils or sliths because they automatically gain combat skills that will increase the number of battle disciplines that you get. 1 level of melee or pole weapons gives 1 level towards combat disciplines, 1 level of bows or thrown weapons gives half a level. Trainers will sell 3 levels of melee and 3 levels of pole weapons. The Dharmon priest will sell 3 combat blessings so you can buy 9 levels of combat disciplines. With some items that give bonuses for weapon skills it's easy to get the more useful ones.

[Californian]

Wow. Seems I've been missing a lot. I've been using the BDs for my fighters, but never even noticed them for my spellcasters.

 

Why is the Dharmon priestess the best deal in the game? What do her blessings do? I've got lotsa money. I can get still get them.

 

When I said I'd copied down what unlocks them, I was wrong. I copied down what unlocks the special skills that appear on the right side of the skills screen. I still don't know exactly how to unlock the battle disciplines, although I'm getting the idea that I need to get some combat skills for my spellcasters.

 

So you just keep adding combat skills and see what shows up?

 

Anyway, notice how forgiving the game is to those players like me who don't get technical about things. I'm still doing just fine. In fact, I gather that my ignorance may be prolonging the game for me, and that might be a good thing!

 

Thanks for the advice!

[Randomizer]

The Dharmon priestess gives 4 blessing and you can get each one once: melee weapons, pole weapons, combined bows and thrown weapons, spellcraft. The 3000 per blessing is only 750 per character in a party of 4 and the skill increase doesn't raise the skill point cost to increase that ability. So you can get it any time unlike the other trainers.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

The Dharmon priest will sell 3 combat blessings so you can buy 9 levels of combat disciplines.

8.5, actually. You get 1 point toward unlocking battle disciplines for each level of Melee or Pole Weapons, and 1/2 point for each level of Bows or Thrown Weapons. I don't remember the exact levels for everything, but Battle Frenzy (which is the last one to be unlocked) requires 20 total points.

The consensus among the power gamers seem to be that Adrenaline Rush (3 attacks in one round) is the best of the battle disciplines. Personally, I prefer Battle Frenzy (2 attacks per round for multiple rounds), since I'm not good enough to end most fights in one round.

The blessings in Dharmon increase your level of a skill by one for each member of your party. The four blessings increase Melee, Pole Weapons, Thrown Weapons, and Spellcraft. Each blessing can be given only once. Since each blessing costs 3,000 gold, that's the equivalent of 750 gold per point of increase, which is better than almost any other trainer (and, considering the usefulness of the skills given, is indeed the best deal in the game).

[Californian]

That's great info, guys! Perhaps other just-for-fun weekend gamers like me will see this and load up on those battle skills!

 

Oh, I searched the forum and did find a list of how to unlock the BDs, so although I'm nearing the end of the game, I'm still good to go!

 

I think the reason I missed this is that I'm so used to playing these games since Nethergate. Hey, I know how to play, I thought. Didn't investigate the new possibilities far enough.

 

I do like many of the new things Jeff's put into it, such as the cloaks and wards, but I miss two spells most of all: unlock doors and the old far sight. All this emphasis on tool use is really annoying. And, I know I'm missing some of those teensy little red switches in this game, while I just didn't miss hidden stuff in the earlier games. I was a great fan of wall bumping.

 

Ah well, things do have to evolve!

 

I wonder what will show up in the prequel (you know Jeff will have to do a prequel someday--Avernum has to be seven games!)

[Soul of Wit]

My thoughts:

 

Adrenaline Rush for spellcasters; Battle Frenzy for fighters.

 

The 'U' key: it's the new wall bump.

[Lilith]

The thing about Battle Frenzy is that you can get the exact same effect with a speed burst scroll or a rod of alacrity. Also, it's not hard to get most of your party to 10 AP by the end of the game with items and skills. Even Mighty Blow is better than Battle Frenzy.

[Men are from Slars]

The problem with Battle Frenzy is that if you use it, you can't use other battle disciplines. If it weren't for that it might be preferable to other methods of reaching 10 AP, but giving up Adrenaline Rush means (late game, when you have high Blademaster) giving up more than 1/5 of your damage output (from 10 AP).

[Fael]

For one round. On round two it evens out, and on round three you end up having done more damage with Battle Frenzy. Adrenaline Rush only makes sense if either you can win the fight in one round or if you have enough fatigue reduction to use it every other round.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Fael

For one round. On round two it evens out, and on round three you end up having done more damage with Battle Frenzy. Adrenaline Rush only makes sense if either you can win the fight in one round or if you have enough fatigue reduction to use it every other round.

Or if you have other ways to get two actions per round every round without Battle Frenzy. Which you should.

[Men are from Slars]

No, the point is that since you don't need to use Battle Frenzy to reach 10 AP, you will do less damage with Battle Frenzy than with another 10 AP method plus other battle disciplines.

 

That said, my math above is actually wrong. What it really looks like, assuming 20 Blademaster (reasonable) and no FR equips (since they are quite inconsistent esp compared to A5) is this. I'm doing the damage over 4 turns, since that's how long it takes to recharge Adrenaline Rush with 20 Blademaster.

 

04.00 = Nothing

05.33 = Haste

06.00 = Adrenaline Rush

06.00 = Mighty Blow*

07.00 = Haste + Adrenaline Rush

07.33 = Haste + Mighty Blow*

08.00 = Battle Frenzy

08.00 = 2 AP Items

09.00 = 2 AP Items + Adrenaline Rush

10.00 = 2 AP Items + Mighty Blow*

 

*Mighty Blow is asterisked because I'm not entirely sure it doubles damage, and also because it is not fully effective with dual wielding or multi-target spells.

 

This was an instructive exercise to go through, actually. It points out that if you are using 2 AP Items (or 20 QS), battle disciplines aren't really going to increase your damage output over time all that much... although Adrenaline Rush is obviously always useful for short term damage spamming. If Bladeshield has a useful effect, it might well be the best option for singletons, then...

[Randomizer]

Bladeshield got nerfed in beta testing when Jeff found out how effective it's original form was to avoiding damage.

 

If you equip other fatigue reducing items you increase your chances of getting to use the better battle disciplines more often. I've gotten to use mighty blow every other round some times.

[Lilith]

Bladeshield is still quite good. In terms of physical damage reduction, I'd say it's pretty similar to Ward of Steel or maybe a little better.

[VCH]

I sold all my fatigue reduction gear as it seemed to be pretty useless. Of course I based this conclusion on only minimal testing.

[Tcheedchee]

My tank-warrior has two fatigue-reducing items and it's really true, that he can renew the BD he needs very often. He can renew them about twice as much as my polefighter-slith, who is the better fighter concerning the BD he can use. And that makes himm quite good in his way.

 

I'd say to all the reports above: It depends on what abilities and gear the partymembers generally have.

My tank can activate BDs more often. That was quite helpful for the fight with Hirickis for instance. In the beginning breakshield and mighty blow were quite alright, to break through the line of summoned allies, to get at Hirickis to smother him, but close to Hirickis it was better to use key d-e (can't recall the name).

 

My pole-slith can make use of adrenaline-rush (which my tank hasn't got yet), and in combination with the slith warspear he won from Yassho of the spear, he really can finish off many adversaries in one turn, or wear them down so low, that my tank, who comes second, or even my archer-shaman (third) can finish them off in the first round.

I'd second, that BD helps the magic users, especially adrenaline rush, because they get more spells to cast in one round.

 

Battle frenzy feels disappointing at the moment. It costs a lot of health-points and needs a long time to recover. I'll have to check on the details there.

 

Checking on the spear Yassho dropped, I just realized I missed out on the ceremonial leggins of Yassho. Can't be, that he didn't drop them, can it? But I'm sure I'd have kept them if he had dropped them…

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Tcheedchee

Checking on the spear Yassho dropped, I just realized I missed out on the ceremonial leggins of Yassho. Can't be, that he didn't drop them, can it? But I'm sure I'd have kept them if he had dropped them…

They just look like ordinary plate greaves. You might have overlooked them. It's a pity; they're really nice armour for a spellcaster.