Catoblepas

He's basically a perversion of all of the shaper order stands for, he's far from the 'older classical era of shapers'. he breaks pretty much all of the shapers laws, up to including building a *geneforge*. He does a lot of things that carry the death penalty in shaper society, even for shapers. he also personifies much of what the rebels hate as well such as complete iron-fisted control over his creations (the nedings where he gains control of the shaper organization make this clear) and he runs his little corner of the continent like the mafia. There is literally no reason to stick with him. If you like the traditional shaper way of doign things, you are better off with Alwan, who actually cares about the traditional ways. If you don't like the shapers, then he is just about the worst shaper in the series-personally I'd say he's only edged out by Taygen in the same game, and as mentioned before, at least Taygen has the excuse of not beign completely sane, and of at least *believing* that he is helping people with his actions. As for the shaper council ruling over the world, even if it was burnt to a husk....lets not forget what the player character does in the rebel ending of Geneforge 3, I'd say that's a fair assessment of their plan as well. Evil? Definately. But LAWFUL? Honestly I don't think he could be farther from it, considering how much he wantonly perverts the laws of the shaper for his own personal benefit. I don't particularly care for the ol' D&D alignment system anymore, and I'm not sure it would even be appropriate to try to apply it to the geneforge series, but If I *had* to give him a alignment as in one of my campaings, it would have to be neutral evil, or perhaps even chaotic evil. He just makes too much of a habit of breaking the rules and laws of the shapers.

Ugh, I hate Rawal. All the bad parts about the shaper power structure with an overdose of selfishness. I almost always play pro-shaper, so I have put up with a lot of their garbage over the games, but personally, he takes the cake. At least Taygen (as horrible as he is) has the excuses of thinking he is doing the right thing for everyone, and of being insane. Rawal would drive the whole shaper empire into the ground and everything it stands for (good and bad) to hold onto power, and if you side with him, he does. Absolutely despicable, it's a shame that we got him instead of a proper third shaper faction in Geneforge 5 (preferably a moderate shaper faction) I found that game the least satisfying to play as a pro-shaper, and only did so because I disliked the rebels more.

I wouldn't say that the game can necessarily be boiled down to psycopaths vs psycopaths. Both sides have their merits and demerits and msot peopel who play the game will trend towards one side or a another. Personally I tend to side with the shapers in most things, particularly in G2-G4, because I despise the hypocricy and destructive nature of the rebels, but I know there are pleanty of folks on the forums for whom the ends justify the means and the rebels are an acceptable option. What I love about geneforge is that it encourages you to think about where you would put your chips down in a scenario with no perfect option like in geneforge. I will say that I do wish there were more options to be a moderate shaper, however. Even if the ending wasn't as good (such as with Randomizer's example with the short endings in G1 and G2) as you could get otherwise. I would appreciate more grades of shaper philosophy to choose from-sometimes it seems like the rebels come in all the colors of the rainbow, while shaper factions invariably get coralled into one or two options at best. Geneforge 5 factions are strictly split into rebel and shaper factions thoguh, I'm not sure if that really counts as giving you extra options, and it's fairly easy to get locked out of many of them fairly quickly. Three of them are rebel, and two of them are shaper, and IMO the game really tries to nudge you toward rebels in that game, which i did not really appreciate. rebels get a 'moderate' solution, but the closest shapers get to one is Alwan, with their only other option being a genocidal nazi nutcase. A great game to play if you want to play a 'good' rebel, but ultimately a rather disappointing one if you want to be a moderate shaper.

Yes, but they do seem to gloss over the side effects of using the genforge rather reliably. Try asking about the owner of the artilla in the creation stables area and see the evasive answers fly. It would definately appear that unexpected mutations from geneforge use/cannister use seems to be somethign they don't really want to talk about. Plus there's the creepy way the Geneforge tender acts before and after you use the geneforge, adn the general disdain everyone around southforge treats you prior to using it. Southforge isn't exactly the friendliest place on the continent. Obviously the PC went there looking to join the rebellion, but IMO it would be hard to not have second thoughts once you start learning hints about the geneforge's side effects, and how everyone who used it is a jerk/slightly crazy. As for using the geneforge being something you need to survive the shaper's attack, I disagree. There were a lot of unaugmented serviles and humans at the base who got out just fine. The context of Greta saying that you wouldn't leave alive if you didn't use it made it seem more like some sort of Mafia loyalty test rather than something you would need to do to survive the shaper attack. I'd say that the Rebels came off as jerks in general in Geneforge 4, but they are miles above the Rebels of Geneforge 3 for me because I can actually play a Geneforge 4 Rebel campaign and not feel like a complete monster like in G3.

Alwan doesn't cost any essence to keep around, and can be augmented for free on each level up. He might not be as useful as Greta, but he is far from useless later in the game, esp if you are playing pro-shaper and you get to the point where Greta leaves. Hopefully they will become a bit more balanced if/when Jeff remakes G3, but Alwan is useful, in his own way.

Geneforge 3 was the first geneforge game I beat, so the rebels generally don't get much sympathy from me when I play the other games-first impressions and all that. Despite this, I don't think that the Rebels are necessarily depicted in a better light than the shapers in the other games. In geneforge 2 for instance, basically every faction screws you over at some point or another on a personal level, from the perspective of my character, the best path was unaligned. In Geneforge 4, you finally get to start out as a rebel, but the rebels don't exactly get off on a right foot-all but forcing you to use the geneforge at knifepoint, and neglecting to tell you about the dangers of the geneforge. I had no problem going either way (shaper or rebel) in geneforge 4 because of that incident and others, and in geneforge 5, pretty much everyone is a complete jerk, but I think that Alwan benefits fro mbeign the leasst jerky among them. Personally I find it pretty hard to find justification from the perspective of the player character to side with anyone except the Shapers in G2 and G3, and I can see plenty of reason to do so in G4 as well.

Blades of geneforge would be fun, IMO. However, as others have mentioned, a new game in that vein is highly unlikely.

My solution was to mod the health of the soul jars to make them quicker to kill. This made the fight much less tedious while still keeping it a challenge.

Geneforge 4 is definately my favorite of the series. It might not be the msot 'open' of the series, and it might not tell as personal a story as geneforge 3 (my second favorite), but it strikes a great balance between all of the great things I have come to love the series for. Most importantly, the game really flowed well. There never really was a time in which I felt unclear on what my options or objectives were, and at the same time I never really felt railroaded. Most importantly, my characters actions felt natural no matter what I chose. After Finding out the canon ending to Geneforge 3 and what that meant for my geneforge 3 character, I was a little upset, and desided that I would stubbornly play the game as pro-shaper, I honestly wasn't expecting a lot. However, I was suprised with just how natural it felt, in contrast to how playing a rebel-sympathizer felt rather contrived at times in Geneforge 3. It also did a good job of making me feel like an important asset to the war effort rather than jsut an errand runner, and I liked the way that the front lines shifted over the course of the game, with characters reloactating to new areas, it gave the game a definate sense of progression, passage of time, and impact of player chocies. whiel there were a few things that rubbed me the wrong way, I felt that overall it was one of the most memorable rpgs I have played.

I suppose I might have read a bit too much into that comparison. I do agree though, I was a bit disappointed finding out that Ogres and Giants had the same graphic, just to different scales, and the general lack of exotic mosnters from the corruption. I perhaps I am just spoiled by all the exotic creations in the geneforge games. On a subject more related to the topic, I wonder if jeff will add more companions/expand existing companions when he returns to geneforge? He seems to be leaning mroe towards traditional rpg party interactions with Avadon, it would be nice to see soem of the temporary characters be expanded on, or even becoem permanent party members when he revisits the series. Of course, the feature I would most like to see would be having some sort of loyalty mechanic with the interactiosn with Greta and Alwan, along with the ability to give them equipment, and soem more options with the endings etc. Geneforge 3 came within a hair's width of being my favorite game in the series, and I would like to see it become number one

it's a forerunner to Avadon in several ways. Another one I noticed was the similarities between the Shaper dungeon in the endgame (that you only get to visit if you are a rebel) and redbeard's dungeon. The wretches kinda reminded me of an cross between goblins and serviles, IMO. But I may be reading too much into that one.

Hopefully, If/When Jeff remakes the Geneforge series, there will be some sort of rudimentary loyalty mechanic like in Avadon, where you can influence Greta/Alwan to stay with you even if you decide to join a factio nthey are opposed with. I would love to see what Rebel Alwan or Shaper Greta would be up to in the epilogue. I really wish I could could argue some reason into Greta soemtimes, and persuading Alwan to forsake the Shapers for the rebels would be a fascinating (and no doubt difficult) task that I would love to try.The ability to influence the beliefs of my followers along with a few other minor adjustments and updates to the game would easily push Geneforge 3 to the top of my list of favorite geneforge games.

I think the key is that many of the nasty things you have to do to get the Shaper ending are completely optional, while the Rebel ending requires you to do some rather heinous things. Killing the rebels on the second island is optional, and avoidable, as is killing the servile farmers on the last island. by contrast, playing a rebel requires you to murder a fellow shaper and fix the creator-a being causing untold numbers of innocent civilian deaths, and Kill Kyrk-possibly the most relatable shaper in the game, so that the rebels can execute some malnourished captive shapers they are holding prisoner. As mentioned previously, the Rebels talk good, but go against their own preachings at virtually every opportunity, and are worse in pretty much every regard compared to the shapers. They have no regard for civilian casulties, and in fact seem to prefer striking at civilian targets. Similarly, they seem to relish using torture on any captives they aquire-starving, freezing, flogging, to death pretty much everyone who falls into their grasp. There are plenty of examples of this displayed front and center on many of the maps, so It's pretty much unavoidable being exposed to this, while only rebel players will be exposed to the shaper torture dungeon, and only in the endgame. Considering most of the devastation you see throughout the game, including the destruction of your school, are caused by the rebels, purposefully. Likewise, despite talking about making outsiders and creations equal, it is obvious that the Drakons intend to create a hierarchy of their own, merely replacing the Shapers at the top of the pyramid while restricting Drayk, servile, and human power. But providing any of the societal benefits that shapers did (hunting down rogues, making sure only responsible folks can shape, outlawing self-shaping). Litalia has obvious low regard for the lives of the creations beneath her, stating that she doesn't care what you do to the creator on the first island, and even faucilitating an outsider's mini-rebellion on one of the maps by letting him mind control the serviles under him. Then there is the cannister issue. We know from Gull island that the rebels know what the addictive and dehabilitating properties of cannisters are capable of, yet they purposefully either leave them in your path or try to bribe you with them. It's pretty obvious that they are trying to addict you to them, to make you their pet junkie. We further know that the supernatural aura that draws shapers towards them (and seduces them into using them) is an intended design feature, because we know from the second island that they are fully capable of removign this feature, adn even designing cannisters that have the opposite effect. All in all, I would say that the rebels are conclusively worse in pretty much every regard compared to the shapers. They torture and kill both innocents and shapers alike, including many people your character would have known from the school. They try to trick you into joining by using what amounts to drugs and bribery. They don't even follow their own teachings of creation rights, create rogues purposefully to attack neutral targets, use self-shaping despite knowledge of its side effects. From the perspective of a prospective member of the shaper order, they really don't hold up that well compared to the shapers, a group that the MC apparently thought highly enough of to attempt to join. If this isn't enough, there are also the various endings which show what happens when the rebels win, which shows that they only get worse, if anything.

All the Barzites are awful, awful people, IMO. Their leader is the worst-I'm still upset about that buisness with Shanti.

That might be so, but as creating a psychological impression of wearing your character down, having the vitality system actually affect gameplay would do mroe to further that goal. Again, I would point to the essence system in Geneforge. You really had to keep an eye on it, not just because of the fact that you had to balance the amount of essence diverted towards creations and spells, but most importantly-you could actually run out of essence. This created a much more 'real' feeling of your character being worn down by encounters, in conjunction with non-regenerating health. I don't think the vitality system is close to that in terms of accomplishing that. The ability recharge timer only serves to limit your options on a turn-by-turn basis, I don't really see how that expands the tactical aspects of gameplay.

I think that the cooldown takes away from the tactical thinking, esp with the sorceress and with healing abilities. More often than not it coems down to using whatever spell is available than what would tactically speaking be the best spell. Using AOE attacks on a single enemy for instance because everything else is recharging, or having to use your most powerful spells because ice bolt is recharging and demons are immune to fire, etc. Healing is worse because it essentially comes down to luck in the end, when you need healing spells, you *need* them, consdiering characters jump right up after a fight is over, the sorts of fights where you need healing spells are the oens you are in danger of getting a total party kill, which means you can't rely on recharge times. Geneforge had essence, which was a good method of limiting long term spam, and energy, which made you keep track of short range usage, IMO this was a much better system.

I would like to see the turn-based ability cooldown removed, I find it far too limiting. I would also appreciate it if the rebel faction was actually playable outside of the last 30 minutes of the game. The skill tree is definately too limiting and needs a drastic overhaul.

He starts off pretty strict in G4, throwing rebels spies into cages to die and all that, but by the end of G4 he In G4 he's even more reasonable Alwan is probably my favorite character from the last three games. He has a pretty rough exterior what with his hardline stance, but I think it shows that he only does the things he does because he feels it is the only way, and given the opportunity, he seems more than able and willing to show some compassion. On top

Yes, I realized this playing through the game, but the fact of the matter being that there *is* a timer. Why am I forced to use a higher-tier AOE spell when I only need to use the low-level ice spell? I found myself frequently having to use the spell that was available rather than the spell which would be useful for the situation I had it maxed out actually, with two specializations in that collumn, I never really noticed a huge difference considering how fast the fights seem to be decided, and the moment a fight is encountered where the recharge time mattered, It *really* mattered. I found it a needlessly frustrating addition to the skills system, especially on top of the already existing fatigue system. IMO the essence/energy system from geneforge accomplished the same goals but much better, and left me feeling much more in control of the flow of the battle. Even the essence system from Geneforge works better than the Vitality system, because you can rest pretty much in every city, isntead of having to go trek all the way back to the obelisk to recharge. I liked the variety of weapons in the game-it's not often you see spears or javelins it seems, but I didn't like much else about it.

1) I guess i could relate to Shema a bit, considering that his entire clan was genocided with the support of his boss, that's a pretty good reason to be angry, I think. However the impact of these quests is lessened considerably by the fact that all of the folks will try to talk you out of it/bribe you/ or otherwise try to use diplomacy to talk their way out of conflict. Consdering how unreasonable and insane soem of the faction leaders/boss battles can be, (almost invariably resulting in a fight no matter how hard you try to avoid loss of life), the side quest villains don't really seem so bad. It kind felt like I was going off to pick on folks, abusing my avadon authority, ironic considering you have to do these quests to get the rebel ending anyways....bit of a dissonance there, I think. Some non-lethal methods of concluding the missions that kept my party members loyal at the endgame would have been appreciated. Another oddity that slightly annoyed me was that all of the player character choices with the exception of the blademaster seem to have hailed from a pretty specific region of the empire, most obvious with the shadow walker and sorceress. It was therefore very odd to have the exact same dialogue options no matter what. Why is my sorceress, who looks liek Natalie's older sister, asking her questions about her homeland and culture as if I'm some sort of ignorant foreigner? Why does nobody notice when I'm a shadowwalker/shaman/sorcerer when it should be immediately relevent to the conversation or situation at hand? Peopel noticed when I had Shema or Natalie etc in my party when it was appropriate, it seems odd that noone would notice my character's apparent nationality or profession when say, Shema, is getting all sorts of racism etc thrown his way. 2) Actually, this one really didn't bother me so much, some people and palces have foreign names, I think it is appropriate and helps keep them distinct. 3) I agree. I kept waiting for the much-foreshadowed rebel option to be presented, only to see it occur in literally the last half hour of the game. Very disappointed there. 4) The turn-based skill recharge seems to drive battles from going either one of two ways- either a complete cakewalk, or a nightmare. It was extremely irritating as a sorceress waiting for my special abilities to recharge when fighting fire-resistant enemies, consdiering my only options for attacks that didn't require recharge tiems were an increadibly weak bow attack or a fire attack (to which the enemy was immune). Even worse was the healing abilities, which it seemed were never available when you needed them. The wierd difficulty spikes and crevasses were a bit odd as well. Mindtaker, Redbeard, and the canyon hellhounds in Shema's quest spring to mind first, due to being pretty much essential for the rebel ending.

This is true, I don't think anyoen is going to argue that the Shapers do not have these traits (although I would argue that the rebel hierarchy suffers from these exact same problems, some to an even greater degree, as well as their own, unique problems). It's a shame that the player never really gets the chance to express anything like a moderate shaper stance however. It is true that a lot of moderate shapers don't end up in a good position in the end-exiled like Kyryk for example. However, I don't think it is too far-fetched for there to have been such an option considering the existance of the Trakovite faction. Even if it resulted in the main character being exiled to some desert or a swamp island in the middle of nowhere instead of being hailed as a hero, it would be nice to see the character have the option to take such a stance. I seem to recall Alwan in G3 (might have been G4) confiding in the player at one point that although he took a hardline, unquestioning stance, he wasn't blind to the existance of the various problems, just that war was the wrong time to create divisions amongst the shapers, and that reform might be possible post-war. I think It would have been neat to see something like that as possible in the epilogue for moderate shapers. In my opinion the shapers are the faction that could most easily be salvaged, so It's a shame to see the rebels beign so ever-changing and giving the player so many ways to express differing ideologies (with the exception of G3) while Shapers never really get that option, even on a single issue such as servile rights. Even Alwan considers the relationship between shaper and creation to be one like parent and child, so it seems odd that such a notion can gain so little traction amongst the shapers.

Spoilers for G3: I'm pretty sure the alteractions in G3 count as cannister uses, but I'm not 100% sure. Shaping seems to make the shapee more and more 'creation-like', regardless of the method used, and those that use the geneforge but not the cannisters (possible in G4, for instance), and those who use cannisters but not the geneforge (possible in G3) seem to exhibit many of the same quirks, such as 'cannister rage', skin wierdness, and aloofness. I suspect that the pain brought on by using the geneforge is due to its effects being much more drastic than those brought on by cannisters. I suspect that the alterations such as those that can be doen by the Drakon on the Isle of Spears are in line with what happens when the player adds attributes to their creations using essense. It would require a great deal of knowledge about the creature beign shaped (humans, serviles) to pull off, but would theoretically be possible by any shaper of a great deal of skill, it's just that human-shaping is not necessarily a widely circulated skill in their circles, for obvious reasons, so in practice few could do it, sicne this would be a pretty coveted skill, it would explain why there is the need for cannisters and geneforges. Geneforges can convert a great many recruits into lifecrafters, requiring only some maitnence, and cannisters can be delivered to places where the cannister-makers can not go. I suspect that they are just different methods of achieving the same result. Both cannisters and the Geneforge seem to be soemwhat unpredictable, however and the geneforge can kill folks who fall in or really mess them up if they are unlucky like the lifecrafter living in the cave in G4, whiel cannisters have the added disadvantage of possibly spoiling over time, like the one Hoge used in the Dhonal Isle Inn. As for the addictive properties of the cannisters, on Harmony Isle in G3 you can find a cannister that was built for a specific person, that has none of the alluring qualities of 'normal' cannisters, and is actually harmful and painful to touch, while in G1 cannisters will actually kill serviles who try to use them. I suspect that the alluring quality at the very least is a designed feature, (compare the player character's reaction to being in the presence of said cannister to Lankan's reaction) Which makes the rebel's actions of purposefully leaving cannisters around for the PC to find and dangling the promise of cannisters as rewards to be particularly villainous, IMO, esp. in G3- it seems like they are purposefully trying to addict you for the purposes of recruiting you, a pretty underhanded and despicable tactic. Considering that they used a very similar tactic on Shaper Agatha in the same game (in which they purposefully gave her cannisters with the intention of addling her brain so they could take advantage of her mental infirmity) I don't think this interprutation is too far fetched.

yes, G2 unaligned, G3 shaper, G4 shaper, G5 Alwan. While I do have reservations about the behavior of the Shapers, joining the shapers just seems to reliably be the more reasonable and moral choice to me, both from the perspective of the player character, and from an outside perspective.

Good stories usually have resolutions though, and that subplot never gets resolved in any sort of way that brings a measure of closure, which is a pity because I was looking forward to playing through the game as utilizing the shaper/rebel classes and choosing pro/anti shaper paths and seeing if the game played any different. A guardian character gets the same story as a shocktrooper, unfortunately. One of the primary motivations the player has for exploring the world- to find out who they were-has absolutely zero payoff whatsoever. I think the amnesia/imprisonment plot does a good job of making the player invested in their character, of making the events of the game mroe personal, but the end result of the plot is underwhelming to say the least, so I would say it would be a bit unfair to say it has the best plot of the games when what is perhaps the most important plot of the game has goes out with a whimper. Also there is the fact that cannisters have effectively zero effect on the game, and the player is forced to use a geneforge, essentially forcing one of the core moral decisions of the series out of the hands of the player. The game world itself is pretty static, with the faction leaders pretty much just staying where you first meet them for 99% of the game. Even less important characters are pretty much immobile for most of the game, with Greta staying in one place for most of the game outside of two brief encounters, ditto for mekhen after she leaves your party. Compare to Geneforge 4 where the front lines of the conflict shift repeatedly over the coruse of the game and major characters routinely pull up stakes to relocate to new areas, it feels much more like the world is an actual conflict going on in that game and that the situation of the war is changing as the game advances. Furthermore, with the factions themselves, due to the reputation system being tied to what factions you can join, and the number and way in which the factions are introduced, the player has no where near the opportunity that they had in G3 or G4 to explore the factions in their entierty. Taygen's faction itself doesn't appear until the game is pretty much on its last act, this results in none of the factions being as well-developed or explorable as the two factions we get in G3 and G4. Personally, G4 is my favorite, followed by G3, G2, and G5. (haven't played enough of G1 to speak about it)

I know who they are, I would hope that it was evident which group of rebels I was talking about in my posts. The point of the matter being that most of the rebels, gazers, serviles, serviles cultists, drayks, drakons, lifecrafters etc are hard to relate to due to their demeanor, social structure, the atrocities the comit, etc. Lankan and his rebels are as close as we get to seeing a 'normal' side to the rebellion, one that the player could relate to for virtue of beign normal human beings, and without the attatched baggage of genocide, tyranny and insanity that the rebels proper carry. However, the fact of the matter is, the leader of the gatherere rebels is hot tempered, selfish, and refuses to back down even when a shaper comes in and handles the problem that he was the entire reason for him rebelling, prefering to take down all of the rebel gatherers with him rather than concede that he was wrong and that he has no more reason to rebel.