Catoblepas

I think that Geneforge 2 and 3 had the strongest stories, because they tie the player character to the settign of the game the best by giving them a mentor figure and a physical location- the shaper school-to be attatched to, making the character and the palyer more invested in them. That being said, I think that geneforge 4 has the best executed story, giving a great sense of story progression as you advance through the areas, while still allowing for a fair bit of exploration. There were a lot of tiems when I felt like my character had agency in the setting, and that my character's actions were valued and sought after in the story-that my character was soemone important. I think G3 suffered from being to linear and not giving players enough leeway to express opinions and perform actions that were anything but polar opposites (hardline rebel or hardline shaper) althoguh it gains points in my book by giving the player Greta and Alwan as companions, which helped the atmosphere and kept me invested and interested in the setting and the events of the plot. Geneforge 2 had a strong beginning, in my opinion, but the narrative quickly lost all coherency when Shanti went missing, that game. combined with random and unpredictable difficulty spikes in the second half of the game, and G2 left me tired, confused and frustrated, in contrast to excited and inquisitive like I had when I started the game. it wasn't fun to explore in the second half, and I quickly lost interest in the narrative as well. If there is a game in the Geneforge series I would personally reconmend skipping, it would be Geneforge 2. Geneforge 5 takes a lot of the good parts of 4, maintaining a narrative momentum while still allowing for a good deal of exploration. however, it too suffers in its second half from losing steam, forcing the player to choose a faction before the game rapidly comes to a close, with the amnesia plot being dissapointingly unresolved, and the choice of shaper factions being rather limited (2 shaper factiosn to 3 rebel factions), with the second being rather unappealing, and also being the last faction to be introduced. That being said, it is fairly straightforward and easy to play through, so while I didn't like it, I can't reconmend not playing it like with G2.

Consider that only Lankan struck him though. Only Lankan would have been executed, if anyone. Remember that Diwaniya becomes horrified if you actually kill Lankan and the rebels and tells you to leave, I think there is plenty of evidence that Diwaniya wanted the affair settled peacefully-continuing the rebellion after the rogues were gone and insisting on the cannister after that points rather heavily towards Lankan being a pretty selfish individual, who wasn't fighting for the other rebels at all, considering he was ready to let them be dragged down with him, even if you point out that he was had by Litalia and that Diwaniya was not responsible for the events. He is purely selfish in that regard, which is unfortunate because Lankan is essentially the 'face' of the human/outsider side of the rebellion, the one that players should most be able to relate to, and the part of the rebellion not attatched to genocide, drakon politics etc. The Harmony Isle rebels don't do a whole lot of anythign to make the rebels mroe appealing to join, in my opinion.

It's worse considering that the rebels on Harmony won't give up even if you take out the rogues before dealing with them, after the whole reason for rebelling is gone. And he STILL want's you to give him the cannister. Even the outsider rebellion the rebels set up as a sacrificial lamb to stall the shapers aren't relateable in G3, ugh. G4 I think there is very good justification for joining the rebels for the reasons you just gave, but I usually go pro-shaper anyways because A) I played it right after G3, in which I hated the rebels, The rebels come off right away as getting off on the wrong foot with the condescending lifecrafters, strongarming you into using the geneforge, and neglectign to inform you of all of the terrible things that can happen to you if things go wrong until afterwards. (like the crazed lifecrafter living in a cave right outside their enterance) By comparison, the shapers in their first appearance come off as much more subtle and sympathetic in their efforts to recruit you than the rebels in G4. Lastly, C) the plot to create the unbound puts a huge damper on my enthusiasm for the rebels when it surfaces. Like I have mentioned before, the main reason why someone would join the rebels, but it is a reason that the rebels seem to put a great deal of effort to undermine throughout the series, plus it has the unfortunate effect of echoing the ur-drakon plot of Geneforge 3 (see reason A) I can personally imagine a rebel player wandering around southforge slackjawed in horror wondering "what have I gotten myself into, this isn't anything like what I was told the rebellion was like" which allows me to play pro-shaper without feeling like I am acting unrealistically. It might be different if the shapers wouldn't accept you if you are shaped, but they do, and as the best shaper ending shows, .

I don't think the Shapers in Geneforge 3 are necessarily 'good guys' but in a competition between the two, the shapers in G3 win the 'lesser of two evils' competition hands down. Comparing the atrocities they commit in the game is pretty telling in itself: In short, while shaper players may opt out of evil acts, while rebel players *Must* commit or be complacent with several reprehensible acts to complete the game as a rebel. They In addition to how the player is asked to behave to complete each factio nstoryline, there is how the factions themselves behave. While neither faction is a saint, the rebels again show themselves to be morally reprehensible through their methods. I think there are three main reasons why someone would join the rebels, the first being for moral reasons, the second for power, and the third because they are addicted to cannisters. The moral reason always seemed a bit shaky to me, because the rebels do absolutely terrible things in the name of their cause, for no real discernable positive change, it's hard to imagine a shaper joining them for moral reasons when the rebels themselves are, if anythign even less moral in their goals than the shapers. While some might be tempted to bring up the 'ends justifies the means' argument, the problem with it is that this entails uncontrolled shaping, genocide, social, political, environmental, and economic upheaval, drakon and lifecrafter oppression, destruction, and dangerous rogues infesting the countryside. Power is something that can be understood, but the problem is that the side effects for learning shaping the rebel way are abundantly clear and overwhelmingly negative. Why would a shaper join the rebels for their cannisters when they are already a shaper, and thus have the safer method that does not warp the minds and bodies of those that use it? The only sort of person who I can imagine doing this would have to be pathologically power-lustful to even consdier doing so, and IMO Rawal and Barzhal are not the sort of positive role models I like to use when I am playing Geneforge. Udnerstandable motivation, but not necessarily one I personally would want to play using, and certainly not a 'good guy' motivation. lastly there is cannster addiction. I can concieve of a loyalist shaper going rebel, if only for their next fix or to avoid being exiled/executed for self-shaping. The cannisters themselves are definately not a 'moral' object, considering that they are addictive, cause distortion of the body and mind, and are supernaturally alluring to shapers. The addictive qualities, the alluring nature, and the way that the rebels purposefully leave them in your way, sometimes using the carrot on a stick method (as quest rewards) and the way that they use cannisters make a scenario where the rebels addict the player character to cannisters and then string them along with promises of more cannisters disturbingly appropriate for roleplaying purposes. It might be kinda tragic, playing as essentially a junkie, but it's the only real way I can justify my character's actions when playing as a rebel in G3, consdiering all of the morally repugnant things the rebels do, including several which would realistically leave the player character with quite the grudge ****Too Long, Didn't Read Version**** There is little room for someone in the player's position to realistically join the rebel's position if you think about it. A radical pro-servile shaper like Greta would have been thrown out long before (how she even got past the screening process the way she goes on, I have no idea), and it is hard to imagine even a moderate shaper entertaining thoughts of aiding the rebellion on moral grounds considering all of the reprehensibly amoral methods they utilize, including ones aimed at the player character and those they know and care about.

I tend to play as pro-shaper in G2 + G3 for a similar reason. It never made a whole lot of sense fro ma rp perspective for a member of the shaper order to defect without a very good reason to do so, and to be frank, the rebels in G2 and G3 can be pretty awful-there really isn't enough reason to give up everything the player has strived for in life up to that point considering how much the rebels stand in opposition to everything the PC has strived for in life up until that point. This is not to say that I don't have sympathy for the plight of the rebels (well, the serviles at least) but the games don't really give any avenues for shapers who want to change the system from the inside, which leaves my characters as pro-shapers pretty much by default. 1 and 5 I feel a bit differently, as the player feels sufficiently removed from the shaper hierarchy to try out different paths. In G4 I usually play as pro-shaper because of lingering ill-will towards the rebels from G4, and because the rebels force you to use the geneforge pretty much at knifepoint right off the bat. I can't imagine someone not feeling at least some ill will at being strongarmed into mutating themselves without being made aware of the severity of the potential side effects. Add to that the amount of carnage the rebels purposefully inflict on civilians and the disregard they hold un-shaped humans and creations, and sometimes I really wonder what outsiders see in the rebellion. I think I play pro-shaper so often because of these issues-it's hard to imagine a shaper throwing away their life's work to join the rebels, or an outsider going off to join the same folks who very well could have burned down their village for anything other than selfish reasons.

Geneforge 3 is actually my second favorite after Geneforge 4. It has a narrative that maintains a sense of forward momentum without leaving the player scratching their head wondering what needs to be done next (something I remember none-too fondly about my unaligned Geneforge 2 playthrough) and is the only game that gives you *permanent* companions. The banter between the player, Greta, and Alwan is fun to have, and I developed a fondness for them that I never really felt was fulfilled with the temporary companions from the other Geneforge games. That being said, I would have appreciated the ability to give equipment to Alwan and greta, and some sort of influence system such as Avadon or other rpgs have to allow me to actually have soem influence over my companions. the ability to actually argue your point of view with Alwan/Greta would be much more interesting than just stating an opinion, Greta/Alwan acting happy/upset and gaining some support with the rebels or shapers.-which is how it works right now. The island system can be somewhat tiring, esp if you lose Alwan or Greta on the second island and have to go back to the first to re-recruit them. There is the fact that there are only two factions, I don't think this itself is so much of a problem-Geneforge 4 had only 2 1/2 factions after all, and did fine. I think it is the fact that the player is denied access to certain options that should ethically be there, and this lack of choice is refelcted in the endings themselves, which are all very samey, and make the decisions the player made up until that point seem somewhat less rewarding. Mr Vogel actually touched on the subject recently on his blog about choice in video games. Point number three was "All of the obvious options are available" and while Mr Vogel does point out that he cannot cover all of the options, I think that the option to play as something other than a hardline Shaper or Rebel is something that the game sorely needed. Geneforge 3 is the last geneforge game in which the player can play as a shaper (with the player being a lifecrafter in 4 and a cannister-mutated, amnesiac in 5) This could have been the opportunity to play as a moderate shaper, but it is sadly passed on in this game. I'm not necessarily saying that there needs to be a happy ending where shapers and serviles embrace and there is peace and justice forever, but I think that the ability to choose to be moderate would have been a welcome addition, even if it resulted in less-than-happy endings such as some of the Geneforge 4 epilogues. Geneforge 3 does a lot of things right, but I think it is overshadowed by geneforge 4 in a lot of ways. Many of the innovations that 3 brought to the series are drastically polished in 4. Despite this, I think that it is one of the better games in the series-better than 2, and better than 5. (I haven't played enough of geneforge I to comment on that)

I agree. I think people naturally have a way of being able to point out which factions they do *not* like in the geneforge games... but trying to find one that is objectively 'good' is an exercise in insanity for the most part. In Geneforge 5 I think that Alwan is the 'best' faction choice that I have experienced (still have yet to try Astoria) but that beign said, he is only the best out of the pack of terrorists, genocidal maniacs and self-intrested dictators. I would go as far to say that Geneforge 5 has the least 'good' selection of factions out of the entire series bar Geneforge 2, perhaps.

I think it is because everyone is waiting for the forums to switch. Or perhaps most of what can be talked about has already been said 10-20 times, and with no new game on the horizon, interest has waned? I hope it is the first, personally. I am still very interested in the series and I need more opportunities to complain about the rebels on the internet.

She did betray the rebels and join the Trakovites, which is a good thing, but I question if she did it because she is 'good at heart' By the end of Geneforge 3 she stripped pretty much all human emotion and has utter contempt for the PC, in Geneforge 4 she is trying to learn how to act more human, but it is obvious from he dialogue that she sees other sentients as objects, not as equals. Her moralizing was never solid to begin with-in Geneforge 3, where her most heinous crimes were committed, she is at her most human, she only loses humanity over the series, and it is heavily implied that what humanity she shows in G4+5 is faked. Heck, over the course of the series, she gives what? Three different stories on why she betrayed the Shapers? She also keeps the PC's identity from them in G5 (one of two people who definately know the PC's identity), there really is no reason to trust her whatsoever, considering she has no empathy for people, lies through her teeth, and seems to feel like morality is tied to her by taking as extreme measures as possible to obtain her goals, this is a horrible combination, IMO. People who cannot empathize are the last people who should be moralizing, esp peopel like Litalia who have such extreme 'my way or no way' and are willing to go to such extreme measures to ensure victory. Taking over the Trakovites utilated the movement into almost the polar opposite of what it originally stood for. Old Trakovites were a reaction towards the evils of shaping, and was more of a philophical/non-violent movement. Litalia stoops to exactly the same depths as the Shapers and Rebels, and personally embodies the worst of both factions through her actions in G3 and G4 and in her backstory. The Trakovite ending in G4 proves that the Trakovites did not need her to win, but by embracing her as their leader, they became something far less noble. Remember that in G4, the Trakovites sent an emissary to her-whom she sent roamers after to hunt down and kill. In G5 the same person who would send roamers to tear someone limb from limb, someone who was a diplomat from a largely non-violent philosophy is setting the agenda for that same faction, IMO the Trakovites from 5 and 4 are two different animals. We will be switching over to the new boards on Monday, the topic probably won't carry over.

Originally Posted By: Mosquito---Slayer Originally Posted By: Catoblepas Litalia is probably the single *worst* individual in the entire series... I will have to disagree, she always fought for her beliefs, it's a different matter that her beliefs kept changing as she saw more and more of the world and gained experience, It was also admirable that she managed to pretty much cure herself of canister addiction ,a very difficult task considering the challenges she always kept facing,No "bad at heart" guy would have managed to do that. As for the faction i am inclined to go with the trakovites, the rebellion started BECAUSE shapers had their bad points,It grew into something which certainly can't be supported (Unbound and such) and basically it was the power of shaping that led to all this destruction, the trakovites even if not perfect seem to be the most reasonable and sane faction in this hindsight. She might have cured her addiction, but I don't think that automatically makes her a good person, or means she is 'good at heart'. The only things that change about her over the course of the eries is her reliance on cannisters and her faction. She still uses the same methods, and always holds an absolutist moralistic view for whatever faction she belongs to. Furthermore, I think her actions in geneforge 3 speak for herself- she actually likens the school massacre to the servile massacre she participated in that turned her away from the order. Somehow she seems unable to connect the two morally. And lets not forget the way she leaves cannisters scattered behind in her wake-it's implied on the second island that at least some of these are intended to be bribes, that is-she is trying to turn the PC from the shaper order not only with her paper-thin morality tirades, but by making the PC an addict. There is evidence in Geneforge 3 that she doesn't even consider serviles or other intellignet creations to be equals, despite her much spouted morality. She outright says that she does not care what you do to the creator on the first island, and on the second island, there is a rogue mage who keeps a private army of mind-controlled servilles-with Litalia's consent and support. Of course there are the spawners and creators- which are far more of a danger to outsiders than to the shapers themselves. Lastly, there is the monastary of tears-run by outsiders who could not have been more removed from the conflict in ideology and physical location. They were outsiders, they had no creations, they did not provide any aid or comfort to the shapers, and were rounded up and massacred on Litalia's orders. She didn't *have* to even kill them, it is heavily implied that most if not all surrendered or were camptured, but were executed nontheless. Litalia in geneforge 3 is an absolute monster who commits all of the evils she accuses the shapers of and then some, and is a complete hypocrite who cannot/ will not see the contradiction in her words. In G4 she goes off the cannisters, yet it is outright stated in dialogue that she does not see serviles/humans as people and is only mimicking human emotion-I think that if anything, her morality is more ego-driven than anything else at that point. she obviously has no investment in those around her-she is only going through the motions of what she *thinks* is moral without any capacity to understand morality.

You say Shapers cannot be trusted because some go mad... but you trust Litalia? I suggest you re-examine some of her actions in Geneforge III, ha- The Academy, the mind controlled serviles, the creators, the monastary of tears, she was responsible for all of it, with a healthy helping of sanctimonious lecturing! Litalia is probably the single *worst* individual in the entire series, bar Taygen. Her becoming the leader of the Trakovites was the worst thing that could have happened for the organization. As for who is the *right* faction, I would have to go with Alwan. Unfortunately there is no moderate shaper faction in Geneforge V, since Alwan is a traditionalist, Rawal is on no one's side but his own, Taygen is a genocidal maniac, and Astoria isn't even a shaper faction. Since I believe that shaping is a power that needs to be controlled, and the rebels oppose that 100%, I have to go with the Shapers, despite my dislike of how they treat Serviles. I personally think that giving creations such as Serviles more rights is a change that needs to take place from within the shaper organization itself. Destroying it lets loose a whole number of other problems, as we have seen, such as unbound, self shaping, and genocide. As we see over the course of the series, the actions of the rebels only serve to push the shapers further and further away from questioning their practices. While Alwan is not perfect, he is the best the Shapers have at the moment, and far better than the Drakons, Litalia. (and personally, Astoria strikes me as a bit dense) *spoilers below* I was plesantly suprised how nice Alwan is in his ending however, he even lets Greta and the Drakons live after he defeats them, and it made me gain a lot more respect for him. I find it interesting how much as a character he grows over the series, a lot more than that worthless, cannister-warped, Drakon-lackey Greta!

From what I remember, three of the four classes are tied to or at least associated with specific regions in Lynaeus-Sorceress (Kellemderiel), Shaman (Wylrdrylm, Khemeria), and Shadow walker (Holklanda), despite this, no-one from those regions seems to notice or care about what class you are, which is really odd, because one might expect your Hand to have something to say about what is going on in their homeland, or that someone (like the rebels) would try and leverage their national origin against them when all the bad stuff that hits the fan in the game hits the fan in their homeland. The main character did feel a bit unnaturally detatched, I think. It was a bit odd getting a lecture on Kellem customs by Nathalie when my character was the same class as her and looked so similar to her that she could have been her older sister for all I know. I really would have liked to see the player's choice of class have an impact on dialogue at least. In the Geneforge games it works because the varieties of shapers and lifecrafters tend to get umbrella'd under the term shaper or lifecrafter(although I would have liked to see class brought up in those games more often as well)and the games are always set in soem corner of the world that the player is not a native to, and thus doesn't have to worry about what's happening to their hometown. In Avadon you are sent to the provinces from which your character was from, oftentimes to do horrible things to what would be your homeland, yet absolutely nothing changes concerning dialogue based on your choice of class. There are some rather diverse classes in this game, and all of them, (except the blademaster, who I guess could come from anywhere)would be invested in the fate of their home nation, yet this is an issue which is completely absent in this game, which I would really like to see included in the next, I agree that there are times in the game where I wondered if my character had amnesia or had spent a few decades in one of redbeard's stasis fields because they were acting strangely ignorant or emotionally detatched.

Four by far. It has a good plot, and more importantly, a plot that moves forward at a good pace without and makes me feel like my actions had an effect on the world in a meaningful way outside of the endgame. 4 and 3 were the best in this regard, in my opinion, but I choose 4 over 3 because the rebels are mroe likeable/shapers less likeable, which makes choosing between them more difficult, and because four has a much wider range of endings available and going cannister/no cannsiter actually has a much more noticable change on the ending if pro-shaper. I felt that the plot of G2 fell apart and lost direction shortly after getting out of the mines, which is a pity because I really liked it up until then. I also felt like the game was trying to coerce me into joining one of the factions, none of which were really good options for someone who wanted to remain true to the shaper cause, which put me in a rather awkward position of being nudged to pick from a pack of factions that any true loyalist shaper would be morally repulsed by. I 'finished' the game by exiting through the valley without joining any factions, sticking around just long enough to kill Barzahl's right-hand man in a duel. I left the game on a sour note and really don't have the motivation to pick it up and give it another go. Geneforge 2 was my least favorite. I think Geneforge 5 is my second least favorite because many of the plot elements introduced are not resolved, namely the identity of the player character. I also disliked the fact that the effects of cannisters were missing from the game because it removed one of the core moral quandries of the series. The faction system was rather unfulfiling, despite technically giving more options than G3 and G4 had because the faction selection for shaper-characters is really limited, with no route for moderate shapers and an annoying reputation requirement for joining factions that made switching sides a lot more difficult than in G3 or G4. Lastly, two of my favorite characters from previous games were missing, Miranda adn Khyryk, which was a bit disheartening. If I had to order the ones I have played (still haven't beaten G1 yet) it would be G4>G3>G5>G2 A great series, definately. I would buy a new entry for the series in a heartbeat if Jeff ever came back to it.

I hope there are plans to bring the rest of the games over to GoG. GoG is where I got Geneforge from, and without it being on GoG, I probably would have never heard of Spiderweb. There are a lot of people who don't use Steam that could be reached by branching out to GoG, I think.

Killing Akhiri Blaze before he uses the geneforge will at best, make the game unwinnable, since he gives you access to the boat only after you finish the last mission, and I know for a fact that he is invincible after he uses it (health will never go below 1). Since the player going rebel/shaper in the endgame seems to have a bigger effect then which path the player took on for the earleir quests (creator, Lankan, etc) I don't think they necessarily constitute major changes to the ending. Although personally I was a bit disappointed how little using/not using cannisters changed the endings, they seem to be a bit more important to the endings. As I see it, there are three 'main' endings, with the use of cannsiters changing the rebel/shaper endings moderately.

I'm not sure where exactly the ending stuff is located, but I can give you a summary of the endings if you want-I have gotten five distinct endings so far: Pro Shaper with no cannisters, Pro Shaper cannister addict, Pro rebel no cannister, Pro rebel cannister addict, and pro shaper with shaper Khyrk dead. I don't think there are any other endings, but If you are curious how those turned out, I can tell you.

As to the original point of the topic, Geneforge 3 was the first geneforge game I played (still working on beating one and two), and I don't think it's nearly as bad as some folks make it out to be. Personally, I think I enjoyed (most of it) more than Geneforge 5 and 2. Possible spoilers below. While the linearity can be quite obvious at times due to the way the stages of the game are island-based, I think it provides some much-needed structure to the plot that I think was missing in geneforge I + II, and to a lesser extent, V. The personal nature of the attack on the school at the beginning made me (and by extension, my character) feel personally invested in the events that were occuring to an extent I did not in the other games. I haven't gotten very far in Geneforge I yet, but I definately felt that any sense of plot momentum and motivation in G2 dissolved the moment Shanti was out of the picture, and in Geneforge 5, while there were subplots to get the player character invested in the plot (the Amnesia subplot, the control tool subplot) They are essentially dead end plots. After a certain amount of time invested in G5, after finding out that the amnesia plot went exactly nowhere, I found myself with the realization that there was nothing left for me to do except join a faction and complete the endgame. I felt Geneforge 5 ended on a terribly unfulfilling note. Another thing I really liked about geneforge 3 is the companions. As far as I know, G3 is the only geneforge game that offers the player permanent non-creation companions. I liked the companions from G4 and G5, esp Mekhen, but they were only temporary. Personally I think one of the most useful tools that Geneforge 3 had for makign the other player think about the other side was the devil's advocate sort of system G3 had with Alwan and Greta arguing with each other (and you) over the ethics of whatever situation you were in. I think that was sorely missing from the other games. One of the things I like most about Avadon is how fleshed out all of the companions are (even if many of them have unlikeable flaws). If Jeff ever gets around to remaking the Geneforge series like I have heard he plans to do with the Avernum series, I would really like to see him take another look at fleshing out/adding more companions to the Geneforge games. I can't help thinking about how as much as I liked having Greta and Alwan in G3, I would have really liked it if interactiosn with them were as in-depth as they were in Avadon. Plus, the addition of a similar loyalty system would enable players to get around that annoying tendancy for Greta/Alwan to leave after Dhonal Isle, and seeing how a rebel Alwan/shaper Greta would turn out in the epilogue would be worth at least two additional playthroughs from me, IMO. Saying that, There were some elements of G3 that keep me from enjoying it as much as G4. The quarantined island system really does feel artificially restraining, even though it might technically be no more so than other techniques used in the other games. At times it seems like almost all of the restrictions keeping the player from advancing to new areas are some variation of 'there is a boat on the other side of a locked door, go find a way to unlock it or get someone to unlock it'. In other geneforge games we had minefields, checkpoints, secret passages etc, which made kept the restrictions seem less obvious through variation. Another thing problem I had was the factions. There are only two factions in G3, so it would seem natural to at least broaden the factions out and give players more than one 'path' for playing Shapers or Rebels. There is little opportunity to be a 'moderate' shaper or rebel, and even when there is, it is only through dialogue, not through actions or quests. This was even mroe noticable for me with the 'rebel' quests. The player spends a lot more time working for/with Shapers over the course of the game than rebels, with most rebel interaction being boiled down to a visit from Horge or Litalia once or so per island in which they ask you to do them some favor. Considering these favors consist more often than not of some form of terrorist activity, and the way in which the rebels are introduced to the player (burning down the school and killing everyone you know, sparing noone that they came across except you) I think the game could have used a more sympathetic introduction to the rebels at some point. As they are, the rebels (or at least ones you can interact with without a battle) are always distant and hostile. I never got to see a sympathetic side to the rebel cause until the second to last island, which was immediately countered by that island's rebel mission. I also felt that the endings for G3 (I got all five) felt a bit too samey. Particularly the difference between cannsiter addict and cannister-free runs. G4 handled it best out of the three Geneforge games I played. After Dhonal's isle I started to get awfully sick of the combat. Perhaps this is because of the fact that the second half of the island is almost all combat, but I felt that there was not enough non-combat situations or areas later in the game. All in all, I definately think G3 is one of my favorite games in the Geneforge series so far. I didn't like it as much as G4, but I think it had a massively better plot than G5, and I think it kept up a good sense of momentum and player investment in the plot, which I feel (so far) that geneforge 2 has not lived up to. The linearity, and inflexibility of the available factionstakes some enjoyment away, but as far as my favorite Geneforge games, I would rank it (from favorite to least favorite) G4, G3, G2, G5 (haven't played enough of G1 to say where it fits) Just my 2 cents

Hey! calm down I agree with you! I just said that their bad rep was unfair! Shapers made life much easier for most people (if admittedly at the expense of serviles) I was just pointing out that two thirds of the shaper orders are committed to making sure that shaping is not used badly (hunting down rogue creations and fallen shapers like Agatha and Zakary)

Remember, if worst comes to worst, you can always use one of the healing scrolls, just try not to use too many, they can bevery useful near the endgame.

The more advanced skills take two points for he first rank, are you sure you have enough points to buy the first rank?

Agents are also used to hunt down rogues, which is something that non-shapers would appreciate. Guardians seem to be the go-to guys for when Shapers want to execute a Shaper that has broken their laws. There is a bit of an overlap. Regardless, thefact that two of the three positions in the Shaper order go around doing a lot of police work makes me think that Shapers generally get an unfairly bad rep for being irresponsible with their powers.

Yeah, Shapers are responsible for creating entire ecosystems. Without the shapers or their terraforming, a lot of the places which are inhabited in the Geneforge games would be uninhabited. Now imagine the consequences when Taygen's virus kills destroys those ecosystems-what will happen to the people living there?

I agree, aside from a few nagging problems I had with the game, Avadon was a great game and a good use of my time and money. One particular thing I enjoyed was how in-depth the interactions were with the party members, it made me feel much more involved in the story than I might have otherwise. By developing a relationship between the PC and the party members that was dependent on my choices. I really hope that Mr Vogel takes this aspect from Avadon to future games, or even the remakes of the older games (for instance, I would absolutely love to have a comparable amount of dialogue content with Alwan/Greta in Geneforge 3)

Originally Posted By: Lilith Originally Posted By: Catoblepas The Rebel path seems half-written at times, esp near the end of the game. I suspect that in my next playthrough I will be palying as a complete Avadon Loyalist, because the rebel route is rather underwhelming, at least in this first game of the series. According to some comments Jeff Vogel made during the game's development, the option of killing Redbeard was meant to be almost an Easter egg, not something that most players would consider. That's probably why it wasn't fleshed out very much. I think the number of people who actually chose to go down that path might have blindsided him a bit. That is rather suprising, considering how many people in the game will tell you how much trouble Avadon brings where ever it goes, the number of opportunities the player character is given to voice a negative opinion on Avadon/Redbeard, and the party member quests which seem to have had a deal of thought in them and which serve to make party members loyal enough to you to consider betraying Redbeard. Of course, a huge part of the plot is the buildup and reveal of Miranda's betrayal, and the fact that she has been trying to recruit you to their cause by sending you on missions that show off Avadon's bad side and teaming you up with hands with suspect loyalties. The problem is that while you are given ample reason to betray Avadon (while Miranda's missions may show only the bad side of Avadon, I would like to point out that this is the only side the player sees in the game, which makes it a bit hard to judge Avadon on anything else) you are never really allowed to participate in the conspiricy until the very last minute. There are no meaningful ways to act against Avadon before this with the exception of the party member quests. The Wayfarer's quests are obviously harmful to Avadon, and it's fairly easy to guess his identity, but the work he gives you is clearly presented from the perspective of someone giving you a bribe to do dirty work under the table, not as an opportunity to strike out against Avadon. In other words, by doing the Wayfarer's quests, you are essentially making yourself representative the problem with Avadon by being a corrupt hand who will screw over people for wealth or power. The player ends up getting essentially three ways of acting agaisnt Avadon: Complaining about how things are run, Party member quests, and essentially being a corrupt cop. because of these limitations, the player never really gets to explore the conspiricy and decide for themselves who is right, as they are consistantly allowed to only follow the path of the loyal Avadon agent no matter how much they complain right up until the endgame. (after slaughtering hundreds of folk with whom you might otherwise be inclined to aid or assist, but are never given the opportunity to) I had a lot of anticipation and curiosity towards the conspiricy and was eagerly waiting for the opportunity to join them in earnest, or at least to see what they were about before making my decision. Unfortunately, neither goal was fulfilled within the structure of the first game, I feel. The conclusion to the rebel storyline feels almost tacked on, with little deviation from the loyalist endgame, despite being the only real section of the game where rebel players get to act on their defiance. (heck, even the assassins in Avadon attacked me despite us both supposedly being on the same side!) I do think that the storyline at least *feels* half-written, as if there is a sizable part of the game missing. Hopefully we will be able to make that choice in a more satisfying manner in the sequel.

Seems worse, In my opinion. Taygen gets messed up no matter the ending you choose, so I guess he gets his comeuppance, which was rather satisfying. A shame there is no quest or dialogue option one can take to put Rawal's dirty laundry out for everyone to see (private geneforge, control tools, cannisters, etc) He sorely deserves horrible, horrible things happening to him. A shame you have to choose between Rawal and Greta at the end.