Ceiling Durkheim

Ah! Just what I was looking for. Thank you very much. Also: wow. Most of the hidden switches in this game only dubiously qualify as "hidden" at all given the larger image, but that one blends in uncannily well.

I'm aware of that. That's where I fought the spiders. What I'm referring to more specifically is "-- NW - hidden switch - Rockridge Deep Storage -- hidden switch - hidden switch - bypass to Deep Storage room -- door ---- east metal chest - 192c, emerald, fancy toolbelt (10% armor, +2 to build boltflinger, snare turret, and blessing pylon, +1 to freezing turret ---- west metal chest - 234c, ruby, wand of corruption, pulsing runestone"

So, I was looking over the Synergizer item list after beating the game recently, and I found myself troubled by one thing: how in blazes does one access the deep storage in Rockridge Keep? Ostensibly there's a switch that opens it up, but I never could find it, even after my confrontations with two separate giant demon spiders.

I'm with Stareye on this. I think it's entirely appropriate to have some, perhaps even most, of your companions fall somewhere in the range from 'has serious qualms about Avadon' to 'actively hates Avadon,' but it would be nice to have one or two people who were genuinely loyal, for sake of contrast if nothing else. Especially since your direct superior this time around, while not especially loyal to Redbeard in particular, is very much loyal to Avadon and the Pact.

I also found this to be one of the hardest fights in the game, second only to Vardegras. It took me around nine tries to beat, so I can say with near-perfect certainty that the wisp doesn't just move around on a fixed turn interval. I've seen it stick around for 3-4 turns in the same construct, but I've also seen it jump around three turns in a row. Taking any amount of damage is also definitely not the trigger. It's possible that the wisp moves around after several turns if left alone, but there are definitely other triggers. The two main ones I've noticed are: 1) if a construct takes a lot of damage; 2) if there are a large number of enemies (i.e. you) near a construct. I noticed the latter over the course of several battles camping near one of the constructs: the wisp tended not to stick around in the construct I was encamped around even when I was too busy healing and buffing to hit it, whereas it would often sit there and take it when receiving moderate damage from afar. The strategy that ended up working for me involved sitting all of my characters down next to the center tinkermage construct. This allowed me to take relatively little in the way of damage and debuffs from the thirty-twelve turrets the blasted things summon, as I could kill those on my campsite quickly enough that they could attack once at most, and I was out of range of the others. I would then use ranged attacks on whichever tinkermage had the wisp in it (melee as well if it was the one at my campsite), and occasionally fire off an AoE or two to keep the constructs in the center from forming fully. It's a slow strategy, but it'll keep you from getting torn apart on torment.

So, I finally got around to beating the game, including various optional content. Vardegras was by far and away the hardest; he took me somewhere on the order of fifteen tries on torment, whereas I managed to beat Krymhylas, Valera, and You-know-who the final boss on the first try. So I thought I'd put up a page about beating him. (Subject to modification as people add or correct various information.) The Basics: -Vardegras goes through several phases in battle. At ~90% HP he begins summoning constructs. At ~50% HP he gains spine shield and reflection for several turns. At ~25% HP he gains battle frenzy (not sure if temporary; by the time it would reasonably expire either I'm dead or he is) and summons 6 horrors. All of these events take place on his turn, and he can take a turn as normal after the event triggers. -The constructs are the most notable mechanic in this battle. He summons two at a time, and will respawn them automatically at the start of each of his turns. In addition to their own fighting abilities, they power him up every turn one is within about four tiles of him, and each time a construct gets destroyed. This effect seems to increase his damage by about 10% per stack; I am uncertain whether there is a maximum number of stacks, and whether this bonus can expire. The constructs vanish as soon as Vardegras dies. The horrors appear much later in the fight. They don't interact with V, they're just there as extra firepower. They remain until killed, whether or not V is alive. -Offensive capabilities: Vardegras gets three turns for each turn that your party gets. In addition to the triggered effects mentioned above, he has three attacks. He can shoot fire at a single target, or in a cone or ring. The shot and cone do 80-100 on a well-equipped endgame character (70-80% defense), the ring more like 60-90. Those numbers are before any bonuses from the constructs. He attacks once per turn unless he has battle frenzy, in which case he can attack twice if he doesn't move more than a few spaces. The constructs get one turn per party turn. They have one attack, a physical melee, which deals 60-90 damage, knocks the target back, and has a high chance of stunning. The horrors get one turn per party turn. They have one attack, ranged magic that deals 30-40 damage and causes fatigue (increases the cooldown of all the target's abilities by 1 turn). -Defensive capabilities: Vardegras is immune to fire and mental debuffs. Surprisingly, he's not immune to stun, though he is highly resistant. Other debuffs have a good chance of affecting him, but they don't last long because of the frequency of his turns. The constructs are immune to energy, poison, and mental effects, and highly resistant to stun. The horrors have no immunities that I'm aware of, and are appealingly vulnerable to stun. Party Suggestions: -First and foremost, do everything else before you try Vardegras. He is much more powerful than the other two bonus bosses, and nearly everything else for that matter. The better your equipment, the better your chances. Being level 30 is pretty much de rigueur on any difficulty but casual. Prioritize equipment with bonuses to fire resistance, since the main source of damage in this fight is V's fire breath. -It's important to have at least one character with strong (non-magical) missile attacks. Of the three main attack types, this is the only one that won't result in the attacker taking damage during the damage reflection portion of the fight. -Having a cure for stun (recuperation crystals or the group cure scarab; *not* the group mental cure scarab) is very important. Losing access to a character for multiple turns is really not something you want in a fight this hard. Also, the more ways you can recover health, the better. V and his minions do a lot of damage. -Area of effect attacks aren't very helpful in this fight. It's useful to have a few that will affect both Vardegras and his constructs (meaning ice or physical), but it's much more important to have strong non-fire single target attacks like dark bolt, shattering blow, and savage blow, as well as basic attacks from a character with high dexterity or strength. -Because of the importance of positioning in this fight, attacks that move enemies around are very helpful. The best for separating V from his constructs are single target attacks, like yankshot, shattering blow, berserker leap, and call the winds. -Having a summon or two to restrict enemy movement and contribute additional damage is very useful. Shaman summons do very little damage (especially since the higher level ones have fire-based special attacks), but are good for distracting and locking down constructs and horrors. The tinkermage's freezing turret and razor flinger are very good for contributing damage, and can occasionally draw Vardegras' fire if positioned properly. -Because of their focus on AoE damage, relatively short-ranged rod/staff attack that doesn't affect V, and lack of knockback abilities, sorcerers are a dubious choice for this battle. If you bring one, be sure to invest a lot of points in focus mastery to reduce fire damage. Shamans are a so-so choice: they can't damage V very well, and they're unlikely to have both knockback and good healing abilities, but group heal and summons are very helpful for this fight. One also has to be careful to keep the constructs' attention away from them because of their very low physical defense. Blademasters and Shadowwalkers are both solid options. Tinkermages are very good for this fight, particularly if specialized for ranged attacks; their turrets provide both damage and distraction, while they can deliver consistent damage through all phases of the battle without worrying about reflected damage. If your tinkermage has inferno turret, it's worthwhile to take out a few points to get yankshot, since inferno turrets can't damage V. Battle Order: -As should be standard practice, summon allies and cast long-term buffs before challenging the reptile. Make sure to spread out healing and buffing items across your party, as a lucky crit from Vardegras can fell even well-defended characters. This is a very fast-paced fight, and time wasted means more massively damaging fire breath directed at you. -V will likely get the first shot (tested up to 37 dexterity), and this will likely be a cone of fire. Immediately fan your characters out so that he can hit as few as possible with the cone. Position melee fighters immediately to his left and right, and ranged fighters below, preferably 10-12 tiles away so as to be outside the range of his ring and cone attacks while still able to shoot/throw at him. -You can safely ignore the constructs for about a turn. Concentrate on keeping your party healed up and doing damage to Vardegras. This is one of the easiest parts of the battle in which to damage him, so take advantage of that. If you can ensnare or immobilize the constructs without wasting too much time (e.g. by summoning a snare turret beforehand), do so, but it's not as important as damaging V. -When the constructs start up, chances are they'll hit one or more of your characters. Get rid of any stun effects they might have caused and continue. They'll also probably be in range of V. If they're already damaged, it can be worthwhile to kill them with AoE attacks like razor/sharpshooter spray, ice storm, shrapnel grenade, or the ice cone scarab. They'll come back almost immediately, but it'll keep them from attacking you for a little while. Otherwise, hit V with a single-target knockback attack to knock him out of range of their power-up. -When his reflective shield comes up, be more careful about hitting him; reflected damage is unlikely to kill you, but the strength of his attacks leaves little room for error. It can still be worthwhile to do so with a high-health character to keep the damage flowing, but it's also worthwhile to switch even melee characters over to missile attacks for a couple turns. -When the horrors come out things get really hairy. At this point it may be best to just go for broke. This is also the point at which AoE knockback attacks really shine. A well-placed earthshatter can knock most of the enemies on the battlefield away from each other, buying you time as well as potentially stunning the horrors. Between the horrors' attacks and V's increased aggression, enemy damage output has increased drastically, far beyond the capacity of a well-prepared party to keep up. On top of that, if the horrors start attacking you, you'll have to either waste AP chugging recovery potions or forego using your abilities. Fortunately, V has very little health left. Head in the opposite direction of the horrors while spamming your strongest attacks on V, and hopefully he'll fall before you do. -When Vardegras finally dies, the rest is mop-up. Just be careful: the horrors aren't much against a party at full strength, but they can still take down a lone character. If you don't mind being a little cheesy (and after taking down this monster you really don't have much left to prove), make a mad dash for the door to V's lair. You can heal and recover cooldowns inside, then stomp the horrors at your leisure.

Yeah, as far as I can tell they're "killable" only in the sense that if you remove all their HP, they cease attacking you and spend several turns recovering their health. Which can be helpful, certainly, but isn't really worth the effort of separating them then doing enough damage to knock them out.

Number of unique areas? It's kind of hard to say, and depends on how one defines an area. Counting Avadon, there are about 20 major map zones, but most of these have multiple levels. Counting all of the levels, probably about 50, but some of those are much larger than others. As for playtime, I've done nearly everything, and am about to go into the endgame with roughly fifty hours on the clock. How long the endgame is I'm not sure yet, but I doubt it will be more than 5 hours. For sake of comparison, it's definitely longer than the first Avadon. The first game I'd say was about 25 hours on a quick run, 40 or a little more if you did all the sidequests and optional content. The second game is noticeably but not tremendously longer. It's a little shorter than Spiderweb's other recent games (I found both Avernum 6 and Escape From The Pit to be about 60 hours if one did all the things), but the difference isn't as dramatic as with the first Avadon.

I'm not a fan of magical mastery either. I do find accuracy helps a bit on torment, but there are so many places to get it, including a scarab that gives +15%, a set of bracers that give +20%, a belt that gives +15%, and two charms, one with +15% and the other with +5% (all of which work for sorcerers; there are a few swords, spears, and pieces of heavy armor that also give accuracy bonuses). You'll probably want some of that for higher difficulties, but you won't need nearly all of it, let alone some/all of it and magical mastery. And as for cooldown, focus mastery tends to give sorcerers extremely fast cooldowns anyway (at least against magic-using opponents), and the so-so bonuses that magical mastery provides aren't worth the number of points you'd have to drop into it to get it to level 7+. You can safely ignore it, or put a point or two in; your points are much better spent on ward or focus mastery.

Huh. Weird mechanic. Glad I asked, as I'm pretty sure by the time I figured that out I would have been really annoyed with the fight. Thanks!

Yeah, maybe if enough people bother him about it he'll listen this time.

So...I'm near the end of the game. Decided to do torment for my first run-through this time, and it's mostly been tough but doable. That said, I've gotten near the endgame and I'm having some trouble. I'm at the battle with Miranda in the Corruption's Core, and it's gotten to the point of being more frustrating than fun. I can tell that I'm supposed to do something with the blue orbs on the tortured horrors (attacking Miranda's horrors seem to be mostly a recreational activity for those who aren't attacking her). My surmise is that she's only vulnerable to damage from a character with a blue orb from the last horror she respawned. I don't really feel like spending the fruitless battle or three testing this hypothesis, so: is that correct? If not, how does one damage her?

That's true to an extent, but as you say, they're a lot rarer than food. They're available in substantial quantities in stores, but they're seriously overpriced for their actual late game utility. I'm not crazy about the idea of making standard healing potions unsellable, but I like the idea of some sort of unsellable item that restores a small but non-trivial amount of health by a late game character's standards, whether or not that item is food.

I presume you're not playing on Torment, then. While food is pointless in the latter stretches of the game, for the first third or so it's actually pretty important. I can say with no exaggeration that there have been at least two fights in which my life was saved by the timely deployment of beef jerky; there were others in which I likely would not have won if I hadn't used several food items over the course of the fight, but those are harder to tally. The ability to heal a small but non-trivial amount of health and still have AP left to attack or cast has pretty obvious strategic utility. I actually think this makes for a pretty interesting strategic wrinkle in combat. The main forms of healing in Avadon are limited by price/availability (potions) and cooldown/vitality (spells). Food and bandages are essentially only limited by AP: they don't cost money (I mean, you can buy them, but why would you when there're so many just lying around?) or impact cooldowns, but it does reduce the user's mobility that turn, and possibly prevent them from getting in range to attack or take other actions. It's an interesting tradeoff that increases tactical complexity and rewards players who have the forethought to position their characters in such a way as to be able to eat and attack in the same turn. The problem is that food doesn't scale up as the game goes on: recovering 9-21 health is somewhat helpful for a character with 75 max health, considerably less so for one with 250. I think we should encourage Jeff to include badass late game food in subsequent games. That's not really the fault of auto-healing, though. It's actually been a balance problem (or clever strategy, depending on whom you ask) in Jeff's games for a very long time. The first Geneforge was legendary for its many exploits along these lines. It's true that reviving characters automatically after battle makes this strategy easier to execute, but trust me when I say that this has been a viable maneuver since the original Exile. As people have said already in this thread, it's a difference between convenience and tedium, not ease and difficulty: 'go into battle, pick off an enemy or two, run away, auto-heal, repeat' and 'go into battle, pick off an enemy or two, run away, cast some cheap healing spells, go back to town and rest up if necessary, repeat' are identical in terms of actual battle difficulty, it's just that the latter requires more down time.

Had three wives, you mean. One of them betrayed him and another got killed. Sounds like the perfect opportunity to me. Wow. Sounds like a real winsome bunch.

I support this, primarily because in light of the information presented above, it would give the player the ability to swap Redbeard's gender at will. Oh? Now I'm curious. I've gotten the impression of RPG Codex as a group of people who consider themselves extremely Hardcore, and are very, perhaps a tad pathologically intent on making sure that everyone around them knows this, but beyond that I don't know much about them. Do you anticipate them taking up the banner of that most maligned and oppressed of conceptual entities, the Hetero Male Gamer?

Downloaded the demo of Exile back in '98 (I think off HappyPuppy, or maybe Cnet), when I was 12. Enjoyed it, eventually convinced my parents to let me purchase the series, got very into Blades, wrote and published a couple scenarios that are probably best forgotten. Played the Avernum games as they came out, and was moderately active on the forums in the early aughts, but got busy with college around the time BoA debuted (in fairness, it sounds like I didn't miss much). Did a lot less gaming, and mostly forgot about Spiderweb until I picked up Avernum 5 in summer 2008 to help me unwind after a rather brutal semester. Been playing SW games pretty consistently since.

Huh. Any idea why he hung onto those? The level cap I can understand from a game balance perspective, so that players can't just outlevel late-game content (not that this was all that terrible a problem in SW games without a hard cap). The bottom-heavy skill system? I don't think I've ever seen anyone express an opinion more positive than indifference on that one, and plenty that were rather less positive than that. It also seems to contradict his own design philosophy, as elucidated in various of his blog posts, about making levels (especially later in the game) seem significant and interesting. "This level I guess I'll put two points into a skill I never use so that next level I can put two points into a skill I do actually use" seems to me to stand in clear contradistinction to that ideal. It's especially odd that he kept it that way given that it likely wouldn't have been especially labor-intensive to change, since after all he has already programmed a game that uses a more balanced skill tree.

Hmm. The manual gives the impression that character level is still capped at 30, and skills are dependent on the levels of both skills below them (as opposed to the higher of the two levels, as in A:EftP). These were both the basis of a lot of player complaint on the forums last time around, and I had been under the impression that Jeff was planning to change them for Avadon 2. Did he scrap that idea? Alternately, it could just be lack of attention to detail in the manual. I'm certainly hoping for the latter; I suppose I'll be able to find out for myself in a few days.

Doesn't the nether gate refer to the portal Sylak created to allow the sidhe and other magical beasties to leave the world? I thought the game mentioned that connection a couple times.

I'd definitely have to go with Geneforge 4. The engine feels new enough to not grate on me (the most important cutoffs for me are the updates to the inventory system, which happened in G3 and G4 respectively), and the gameplay is plenty fun, if a bit on the easy side for Geneforge. Story-wise I've always preferred Geneforge to Avernum as the more original and morally complex setting (Avadon is somewhere in between), and Geneforge 4 has some of my favorite characterization in the series, particularly with Litalia, Miranda, and Ghaldring. I also really enjoy the pacing of the game: while in many respects I like the sandbox quality of most of Jeff's games, it can also feel like the world just sits around waiting for the player to poke at it. G4 is one of the few Spiderweb games that conveys a real sense of urgency and excitement, and manages to balance forward motion of plot with a (mostly) open world quite handily. Avernum 6 is probably my second favorite. Well-done story that ties together a lot of themes and plot/character elements from previous games, fun gameplay overall (though enemies tend to have giant piles of HP on higher difficulties, which can make combat a bit tedious), some of the best set pieces of any Spiderweb game, and a lot prettier than its predecessors. I'm also quite fond of Avadon, but I recognize that it's a polarizing game among hardcore fans (witness Neb's rather inflammatory statements above). The story is cool, but it didn't bowl me over like the better Geneforge games did. The gameplay, while still recognizably Spiderweb, has a lot of changes, including the first instance of a truly class-based character design system, the near-elimination of spell energy as a resource, and more puzzle-oriented boss fights. I'm a fan of pretty much all of those changes, but it also has notable flaws: while no class is overwhelmingly superior to the others, there are a lot of individual skills that are overpowered and others that are worth taking only as prerequisites if at all. Dexterity-focused builds are just flat out better than those that emphasize strength or intelligence. The final boss fight has also been the subject of a lot of well-deserved criticism. Still, I liked Avadon a lot, and I eagerly await the sequel.

The leveling systems in 5 and 6 are nearly identical to the one in 4. Some of the effects of individual skills get modified for balance reasons, but the basic system is the same.

Yeah, pretty much. You're certainly no one of any great import at the beginning of A6, nor do you become so until about halfway through the game when Levitt starts giving you assignments. I'm fondest of six, then five, then four. I'm generally fonder of the later Geneforge games than either Avernum trilogy, though.

I was always a little sad the GIFTS never showed up in Geneforge. I mean, if any story would realistically have giant talking spiders, it would be Geneforge.

How much of that is really an issue of freedom from constraint, though, and how much of that is just creators of media simplifying them in order to weed out less interesting events? Characters in media use the restroom a lot less than real people, but I'm pretty sure that's not some power fantasy of freedom from excretion (though admittedly that would save a lot of time in the long run), and more that bathrooms don't generally contribute much to narrative or drama.