*i

Another person dead. Not much left of him, but people are able to determine that he was... RCCCL

Maybe I'm really two people all in one. No wait, someone already did that.

It could be a newbie or someone not a newbie trying to make you think it was a newbie. We report, you decide.

Someone was found dead with a note pinned to his back. It simply reads, in his blood, "DIE NEWBIE HATER!" It does not take long for people to conclude it was... ASH LAEL

Marlenny has replaced Steel Maverick.

Public Service Announcement: A few people still have not gotten back to me. If you do not respond within the next few hours, I will replace you. It is not fair to all of the other people who agreed to participate. Otherwise, best of luck to everyone. Round 4 begins!

This is a common quirk of the UBB PM system. If you type someone's name in, you need to spell their current display name EXACTLY right. If you do not, it gives that weird message as opposed to a more intuitive error.

You may start strategizing now. You may not submit any actions until I officially start the game. If you do, I will simply ignore them. If I happen to be in a helpful mood, I might even tell you that you need to submit it again. I got a couple questions on the known enemy lists. Hopefully this will clear what those imply. The most important thing to realize is the known enemy lists are hypothetical tool to help out players. They are based solely on comparing victory conditions, and should not be taken to imply that said roles exist in the game. While anyone on your list is definitely your enemy, the list is not necessarily complete. A few roles (such as the Darkside Loyalists) have hidden targets. If you are a target for one of the roles, you will appear on their list, but that person not on yours. If it were, there would be no point to secret targets. Further, people on your enemy list do not necessarily need to be killed (or to kill you) to achieve your victory condition. They are assembled quite broadly to keep as many options open to victory as possible. When someone makes an attack, I use the actual enemy list, which is secret to everyone except me, to decide the battle flow. This may or may not match your known enemy list. Also, another point about enemies relates to artifacts. If someone currently has an artifact you need as part of your victory condition, you are enemies. You have motive to kill them to get the artifact, and they have motive to kill you first to prevent you from getting it. To clarify, someone simply having need for a similar artifact does not automatically make you enemies. The person must actually possess it.

Thank you everyone for agreeing to play and watch. Here are the ground rules. Only the moderator (me) and people who are playing the game and are alive may post here. Anything else will be instantly deleted. The current living players are: Andraste Ash Lael BainIhrno Creator Dikiyoba Doom Warrior Excalibur Imban Nioca PGLB RCCCL Sarachim Sporefrog Marlenny Wz As Xelgion Some ground rules: 1) If you are playing PLEASE READ ALL THE RULES. They have been updated since the last game. 2) Private communication is allowed. 3) Submit your actions to me by way of PM in the thread I started with you. If I cannot figure out what you want to do, I'll simply ignore it, so try to be clear. 4) Actions will be processed in the order they were received when I get around to them. Read the rules for how often you can submit and any other exceptions. 5) Please posts all rules questions in your PM with me or in the rules topics. 6) If you are not playing or dead, please do not influence the game. You may look, but not touch. Otherwise, the game begins: Monday, April 13 at 10 PM EDT No action submissions will be accepted before that. A few people tried to submit some things, and those posts will be ignored. In other words, submit again after the game starts. I'm doing this not to be a jerk, but to make sure everyone gets a fair chance at getting their post in. I'm sorry if you are busy at the start time, but it is impossible choose a start time that works for everyone. Also, if you have not done so already, reply to my PM topic with you as soon as you can. If you do not within 24 hours of me sending it to you, you may be replaced. Just a reminder, no actions that kill anyone will be processed until: Tuesday, April 14 at 10 PM EDT Also, the game will end at the latest on: Monday, April 20 at 10 PM EDT

No.

Haha, thinking about it certain abilities will not be inherited by the Necromancer. These will be: Aimee Anama Priest Domont Fae Gladwell Machrone Nephil Activist Skribbane Addict Vahkos

Holy Symbol only works if he attacks someone. If he goads someone with the Holy Symbol into attacking him, he will likely win. He also can't use items or join anyone, so there is little reason to deal with Fae. It's still possible to lose this way, but he has little to gain. Also, remember Fae is not necessarily going to be in the game. The others seem correct to me. Just add that using a Heroic Brew ups people's chances.

To make Vahkos a bit better, I decided he will ALWAYS get the first strike regardless of anything else. This eliminates several of Creator's concerns.

You are correct, nonetheless this need not be a worry at all. If I see someone being way out of whack due to a random outlier, I will fix it manually. In other words, I do use a lot of randomness to ensure people don't know exactly what is going on, but I am not above tweaking a few things at the start of the game for the sake of game balance. I figure the slight loss in these outlier situations is compensated by having people balanced. The main thing is ensuring everyone has a fair chance at winning (and losing).

Quote: Another question: I noticed that Ronaldo's description includes "Kill three empire citizens by your own hand". Does that apply to the Infiltrator too? Oops. Thanks for pointing this out. It should be more consistent now.

Pure Spirit is enemies with them. On the Infiltrator, remember it goes both ways. If you have a lot of enemies, it makes it quite likely you will die if attacked. The Infiltrator is a killing role and little more. Of course, he is right to collaborate with Imperials. Just note the ratio of Avernites to Imperials is 15 to 11. However, at least six roles will always be Imperials: In slots 1-10, the ratio is 4 to 6. So the most enemies the Infiltrator will ever have is 9. Therefore, if he randomly picks a target, he has, at best, a 40% chance of ending up dead. It is quite likely this will be a bit higher.

Quote: It says that drypeak is in the storm plains when you read rawals journal Note quite. Check again. The exact text: Quote: This is some information about your origin, but not much. The Drypeak Mountains are some distance to the south, near the Storm Plains The emphasis added is mine. The journal is correct that it is near the Storm Plains, but not in the Storm Plains. The area by Gazaki-Usss matches this perfectly.

From what we get in the story, it is located in the mountains within disputed territory near Gazaki-Usss.

Whoops. Should be fixed now. Thanks!

All right, all of the new rules and role lists are up. Please direct any future comments there. Thank you for all your suggestions!

This is the list of possible roles for Game 4. Unlike previous games, only 16 of these will be used. The roles will be chosen as follows: Roles 1-10: Anama Priest, Bound Servant, Darkside Blademaster, Darkside Mage, Dionicio, Domont, Gladwell, Machrone, Micklebur, Shanker. Role 11: Adventurer or Empire Spy (50% each) Role 12: Alchemist (25%), Craftmaster Strine (25%), or Oliver (50%) Roles 13-16: Randomly chosen to be any role not currently used. The magic users are: Aimee, Craftmaster Strine, Darkside Mage, Gladwell, Necromancer, Sacred Item Cultist, Shanker, Vahkos. People who may join the Anama are: Adventurer, Alchemist, Anama Hunter, Dionicio, Fae, Infiltrator, Machrone, Oliver, Pure Spirit, Ronaldo, Skribbane Addict. People who may join Gladwell are: Adventurer, Anama Hunter, Craftmaster Strine, Dionicio, Fae, Infiltrator, Machrone, Necromancer, Ronaldo, Sacred Item Cultist, Skribbane Addict. The roles, in alphabetical order, are: Adventurer Nationality: Avernum Skill: Stealth Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: May target one person per day. If that person has any items, you steal one of them (chosen at random). Victory Condition: You must do two of these: Have the Assassin Leather at the end of the game, kill Dionicio, kill Gladwell, kill Empire Spy, kill Darkside Blademaster, kill Darkside Mage, kill Micklebur, kill Skribbane Addict. Aimee Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: None Immune: Most Attacks Abilities: Your target may not perform any actions for 24 hours. You may not directly attack anyone or hold and use items. You can only be killed by: Gladwell, Anama Priest, Vahkos, and Wand of Death. Anyone else who attacks you will learn your role. Victory: Number of Avernites (not counting Aimee) that win is at least twice the number of Imperials that win. Alchemist Nationality: Empire Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None Abilities: Brew one of the following: Antidote, Heroic Brew, Ironskin Salve, Knowledge Brew, Resistance Elixir, or Weapon Poison. Victory: Only one of Shanker, Gladwell, or the Anama Priest win. If all are dead, collect two of three randomly chosen items. Anama Hunter Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: May target one person per day. Reveals if that person is in the Anama. While attacking someone in the Anama, your skill level is treated as Power. Victory Condition: Total elimination of the Anama sect. The Anama Priest and all followers must be dead by any means necessary. You may join the Anama to go undercover. You will gain the magic immunity, but your victory condition will be unmodified. Also, you do not count as an Anama member when evaluating anyone's victory conditions. Anama Priest Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: Magic Ability: Once per game, may resurrect one person. Victory Condition: Have the number of Anama members outnumber the mages and servants of Gladwell at the end of the game. The magic users are: Aimee, Craftmaster Strine, Darkside Mage, Gladwell, Necromancer, Sacred Item Cultist, Shanker, Vahkos. Gladwell begins with one servant, the Bound Servant, but may acquire more. Anama Priest can recruit Anama members who are not mages, servants of Gladwell, or Darkside Loyalists. Anyone who joins the Anama gains immunity to magic. See the rules for specifics. An exact list of roles that can join is given at the top of this thread. Bound Servant Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: Physical Ability: Reveals if your target would be a suitable candidate for recruiting by Gladwell. So long as Gladwell is alive, you are immune to physical damage. When you attack under Gladwell's geas, you will always get the first strike. Victory Condition: Gladwell wins or his geas is broken. You are a servant of Gladwell. Craftmaster Strine Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Magic Immune: None Abilities: You may craft an item from the list below. Each item on the list may only be made once per game: * Box of Traps * Clover Boots * Disruption Crystal * Ivory Skull * Knowledge Brew * Knowledge Brew * Resistance Elixir * Rod of Alacrity * Vulnerability Scroll * Wand of Death * Warding Crystal * Warding Crystal Victory: Collect two out of three randomly chosen artifacts. Darkside Blademaster Nationality: Empire Skill: Power Attack: Physical Immune: Physical Ability: None. Victory Condition: All five of the following must be dead, by any means necessary: Dionicio, Shanker, Adventurer or Empire Spy, another random Avernite, and one other random target. Darkside Mage Nationality: Empire Skill: Stealth Attack: Magic Immune: None Ability: May target one person per day. The target is cursed for the next 24 hours. If the target decides to attack anyone, his or her attacks will be unable to harm the opponent. Note the curse only affects when the target attacks, not when the target is being attacked. Victory Condition: All five of the following must be dead, by any means necessary: Dionicio, Shanker, Adventurer or Empire Spy, another random Avernite, and one other random target. Dionicio Nationality: Avernum Skill: Power Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: May target one person, living or dead, per day. Reveals that person's role. Victory Condition: All Darkside Loyalists (DL Blademaster, DL Mage, Domont) dead by any means AND have possession of Crystal Spire at the end of the game. Domont Nationality: Empire Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: May use one of these per day. (1) Target a role (e.g. Domont), you will learn about any actions that role did for the last 24 hours, (2) Target a Darkside Loyalist role (e.g. Darkside Mage) and give a keyword (must not be a name or other personally identifying information), the person in that role is given a keyword. This second ability is to help you find the other Darkside Loyalists. Victory Condition: All five of the following must be dead, by any means necessary: Dionicio, Shanker, Adventurer or Empire Spy, another random Avernite, and one other random target. Empire Spy Nationality: Empire Skill: Stealth Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: You can investigate a target's nationality. When you kill someone, you will learn their role. Victory Condition: You must do two of these: Have the Flaming Sword at the end of the game, kill Dionicio, kill Adventurer, kill Shanker, kill Machrone, kill Darkside Blademaster, kill Darkside Mage, kill Skribbane Addict. Fae Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: May assume the identity of any other role (e.g. Fae). You will appear as this role to all information gatherers. Your identity is retained even after death. Victory Condition: Your goal is to trick people into "joining" or trading with you. Anyone who "joins" you, trades with you, or gives you an item ends up dead regardless of skill, immunities, or other effects. Trick at least three people this way. Gladwell Nationality: Avernum Skill: Power Attack: Magic Immune: Magic Ability: You may not attack anyone directly. If any of your servants attack you, you will always get the first strike. You may do one of the following once per day: (1) Compel one of your servants to do any action they could do, or (2) Switch your immunity form magic to physical, or vice versa. Victory Condition: Four randomly generated victory conditions that contain holding two artifacts at the end of the game and two people dead by any means or under your geas. Gladwell can bind other players who are not Anama members or Darkside Loyalists. An exact list of roles that can join is given at the top of this thread. People who join are immune to physical damage if Gladwell is alive. However, they have the following penalties: (1) Gladwell can override any ability request with is ability and (2) person gains the victory condition that Gladwell must win or the geas be broken. Note that if Gladwell compels someone to attack, they will get the first strike. Infiltrator Nationality: Empire Skill: Stealth Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: Once per game, may get a free action that does not count towards the 24 hour period. You must specify this in a PM with your action. Victory: Kill three Avernites by your own hand. Dionicio counts as two. Machrone Nationality: Empire Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None. Ability: Conduct an demographic poll of all the living characters. Pick one from this list: * Reveal (at random) one of the randomly selected roles. (Roles 11-16) * Faction identification. (Anama, Gladwell, Darkside Loyalist) * Magic users. * Current skill levels. * Current immunities. * Nationality. * Targets of the Adventurer. * Targets of the Empire Spy. * Targets of the Darkside Loyalists. Victory Condition: Correctly identify (to the moderator) at least 12 out of 16 roles by the end of the game. Micklebur Nationality: Empire Skill: Power Attack: Physical Immune: Magic Ability: Can detect if a target is a magic user or is a servant of Gladwell. Victory Condition: All mages dead by any means. You are an Anama Member. Necromancer Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Magic Immune: None Ability: Target a dead person, you will learn their role and gain their ability as a possible action. Victory Condition: Use your ability on two randomly selected roles. Nephil Activist Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: Visit the Fang Clan once per 24 hours with a list of actions. While there, you can do any of the following: * Trade for an item for another with a Fang Clan trader. He has a randomly generated inventory of three items every day that you see. * Hire the Nephil pathfinder for two items to learn the role of a target. * Hire the Nephil shaman for two items to offer a blessing towards any player. The blessing gives skill of power for 24 hours. * Hire the Nephil thief for one item. He steals a random item from a target's inventory (if any) and gives it to you. * Hire a Nephil assassin for three items. He attacks a target of your choice. Has skill of stealth, physical attack, no immunity, and gets the first strike. If he dies, he may not be hired again. The pathfinder, shaman, thief, and assassin can only be hired to do one action per day. The Fang Clan will also not accept artifacts as objects of trades. Victory: The following must be dead: Gladwell, Shanker, and the Anama Priest. Oliver Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None. Ability: Can see the inventory of a target. Victory Condition: Have at least two of three randomly chosen artifacts in your possession at the end of the game. Oliver will have a shop that will be discussed in the rules. Items in your shop may not be used by you except when defending from attacks. You may move items from your inventory to your shop, but not vice versa. Pure Spirit Nationality: Avernum Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: Magic Ability: Can see who the target has killed, if anyone. Victory: Neither the Darkside Loyalists nor Gladwell win AND have the Holy Symbol. Ronaldo Nationality: Avernum Skill: Stealth Attack: Poison Immune: None Ability: Can identify the nationality of a target. Victory: Kill three Empire citizens by your own hand. The Darkside Blademaster counts as two. Sacred Item Cultist Nationality: Avernum Skill: Stealth Attack: Magic Immune: Poison Ability: May target an item. It reveals which role (e.g. Sacred Item Cultist) has the item. Victory Condition: At the end of the game, have at least two of three randomly chosen artifacts in your possession. Shanker Nationality: Empire Skill: Standard Attack: Magic Immune: Physical Ability: May target one person per day. This person is protected by magical wards from being attacked for 24 hours. Victory Condition: Neither Gladwell nor the Anama Priest win. Since you are a mage, you are automatically enemies with anyone in the Anama. Unless there is another reason, you are NOT an enemy with Gladwell or his servants. Skribbane Addict Nationality: Empire Skill: Standard Attack: Physical Immune: None Ability: Can detect if a target has skribbane. If you attack someone with skribbane, your skill level is power for the battle duration and you get the first strike. You are immune to Skribbane Withdrawal. If you do not use Skribbane at least three days from your last use or the start of the game, you die. Victory: Use Skribbane at least twice. You must also survive until the end of the game, so time your usage wisely. Vahkos Nationality: Empire Skill: Power Attack: Magic Immune: Poision Ability: You always get the first strike. You may not use or equip items or artifacts, nor may derive any benefits from having them in your inventory. Victory: You are the only survivor at the end of the game.

I don't think that was Machrone, although I could be mistaken. The wizard I'm thinking about is developing a printing press and lives in the Krizsan province. I'm not sure if Machrone actually appears in A3. Anyway, I modified the Nephil Activist to make him a more dynamic role. He can now serve as an intermediary between the other players and the Fang Clan. He still wants certain residents dead so the Fang Clan can have greater control over the Northern Isles. Also, the roles will have 16 slots. The slots will be assigned as follows: Roles 1-10: Required roles. Role 11: Adventurer or Empire Spy Role 12: Alchemist, Craftmaster Strine, or Oliver Roles 13-16: Randomly assigned from any unused roles. Role 11 ensures there is at least one contract killer type role. Note that it is still possible for the other to appear in Roles 13-16. The DL target will be role 11. This means the DLs now have two other random targets. Role 12 ensures that a role that produces items appears in the game. Comments on any of this?

I made a few more changes. Feel free to offer comments. Quote: Maybe I should play Avernum 5 so I know who all these people are. For everyone's benefit, the named characters are as follows: Aimee: One of Avernum's original wizards. Left her body and exists only in spirit form. You "meet" her in A1 and A2. Craftmaster Strine: Mage that makes best equipment in A4. Dionicio: Avernite agent in A5. Domont: Darkside Loyalist agent in A5. Fae: Bandit in Northern Isles that tricks party into helping her and tries to kill you. Gladwell: Wizard in Bargha in A4 studying slimes. Has tower in Northern Isles in A5. Note I think he is a better match for Sage Eichler in Spire in A4. Machrone: Apprentice of Strange Wizard in A3. Appears in many BoA scenarios. Micklebur: Anama Warrior in A5. Oliver: Traveling merchant in A4. Ronaldo: Bandit in Northern Isles in A5 who hates the Empire. Killed an Empire agent. Shanker: Outcast Empire wizard living in Northern Isles in A5. Vahkos: Vampire in eastern territories (near Squiggus and Lennus) in A3. Not to be confused with Vakhos in DWtD.

Quote: There's a lot of things that can give garunteed first strike. What happens when two of them come into conflict? (e.g. Vahkoss attacks someone high on scribbane) My guess is that the normal rules apply. Good point. My ruling is what you suggest, in this unlikely event, we look for how it would have been decided had those conditions not been there.

Some thoughts: 1) First of all, everyone did a good job playing. You guys were a great set of players! 2) I think the concept of enemies worked really well. In many cases, I could tell people were more cautious when it came to killing. Two people died for attacking the wrong person, which is better than the wrong people dying. 3) The roles seemed pretty balanced. No one seemed too overpowered or underpowered. 4) I think Gladwell and the Anama are fine. With sufficient skill, it should be possible to deceive until you make a few allies. Both factions have a power role with an immunity. There is a good (albeit not foolproof if you get really unlucky) strategy to being successful with either role. Generally, this involves neither Gladwell nor the Anama Priest revealing themselves too early. Further, I disagree Gladwell has no reason to recruit. Just about everyone has a reason to have allies. The difference with Gladwell (and the Anama) is they have something to offer if the alliance is formalized. Granted, there is a cost, but that is just there to ensure that they are actually allies -- Anama Hunter aside. 5) I think it would be a good idea to put a little more randomness in determining which roles. This should make deception a bit easier and prolong the game. I'm eager to hear reflections on the game and what worked and what didn't. Not just about the rules so much as strategy.