People have TALKED about making a tabletop RPG of Exile / Avernum for years. And usually when they do, they ask if there's any extant work or other useful info from previous attempts. I don't recall ever seeing anything of the sort, however. If anyone in past actually did get further than just talk, then I don't think it's ever shown up here on the forums in any substantial way.

Interesting. So you'll join the Awakened even though you believe the Takers are more pragmatic and likely to survive?

Also, Gazak-Uss is the challenge area for G2 - the optional, totally unnecessary, has nothing plot relevant, chock-full of the most deadly monsters in the whole game, zone. Just FYI.

Aha, aha. So which will it be? The Takers or the Awakened?

FYI, sabotaging the brass post control system as you did should give you an edge if you dare to challenge Barzahl. You did what you're supposed to do and didn't miss anything in terms of breaking them.

I suppose it's revenge if that's your intention, but might it not also be that you, as the lawful representative of the Shaper Council, are carrying out a just execution of a confessed, unrepentant murderer?

Why do think this is bug? Friendly creatures are known to attack hostiles. If one NPC turned into a hostile, it seems logical and normal, not buggy, that the friendly guard NPCs would attack it.

Re: the brass pylons: you must construct additional...oh wait, that's a meme, not advice. As long as no one catches you, messing with the pylons won't hurt your standing with the Barzites.

You're doing something wrong. Because through the dialogue options with Barzahl and Stanis, you totally can "challenge that huge, Shaped-to-lolness guy in a one-to-one fight." And if you don't want it to be a fair one-vs.-one fight, maybe you should poke around for a way to turn to the tide.

Oh, I misread your last post. More punctuation and capitalization would have helped with that. So you found the option to challenge Stanis. You are just offended that Barzahl won't do the dirty work of executing him for you. Well, sorry, but you'll have to do this on your own. As I said, though, if you don't want to fight a fair one-on-one fight, find a way to make it less...one-on-one.

You absolutely can talk to Barzahl about Shanti's death, then talk to his guard and about it and reach a "conclusion" to the matter. If you saw no such options, perhaps you missed some dialogue?

You are a: Right-Leaning Anarchist Cosmopolitan Reactionary

Collectivism score: -33%
Authoritarianism score: -100%
Internationalism score: 0%
Tribalism score: -17%
Liberalism score: -67%

Well, no one's ever called me that before.

I approve this quiz because it was delightfully short. I did have to answer "Maybe" on several questions because I just didn't feel like "Yes" or "No" was an adequate answer without further explanation / definition of terms.

In G4, the PC is the only member of his "class" to survive, which makes the Rebels' graduation rates look pretty bad...but I guess technically the others *were* all killed by the Shaper attack.

28 minutes ago, alhoon said:

How many PhD candidates have died in defense of their Thesis?

The Shapers are, on some level, a bunch of magical researchers (it might be part of why they do a poor job with the administrative side of ruling an empire). To a draw a real life analogy, pick a scholarly field. I'll use history since that's what I do. Most historians have a PHD. They are all basically "equal" in being PHD holders; you can address all of them as Shaper, I mean Doctor, So-and-so. But are they really equal in status? Not at all! Some might have had an especially eminent scholar for their advisor, whose reputation can open doors for them. Others might have attended an ivy league school whose mere name confers tremendous prestige. Additionally, some of them are employed and some are not. Among those that are employed, some are exploited cheap laborers known as adjuncts, others are tenure-track associate professors, and still others are tenured department chairs. There's also publications to consider: some have published one book that no one even remembers except their mother, others have published half a dozen books and won the Bancroft Prize for one of them. NONE of these distinctions are conveyed by ranks. There is no formal hierarchy through which a person progresses in linear fashion. And yet people within the field KNOW who the "big names" are in their line of study. My analogy is imperfect, I freely concede. But I think it successfully illustrates how a bunch of people without ranks to distinguish them, who are in one sense all equal (as PHD holders) can nonetheless very much be unequal in status, and for them all to be well aware of that fact. It's not at all farfetched in my mind to suppose something similar might go on among the Shapers.

Based on what we see in G1/2/3, Shapers must undertake extensive study and pass exams to be allowed to become a Shaper, then undergo a long period of training and study (what the G1 apprentice was about to begin and what the G3 apprentice was in the middle of), then get assigned a mentor for a time of field training (like the G2 apprentice). Then they are Shapers, all "equal" in the eyes of the outside world. But within the Shaper community, some are known to have far more status than others, and some also hold special offices of authority (administrator of the Ashen Isles, member of the Shaper Council, etc.).

Speaking of Shapers and rules: have you met a fellow named Aodare yet? You'll know him when you find him. Or what about visiting the Loyalist Encampment zone? Knowing your high standards for what constitutes an orthodox Shaper, I'm curious if any of these folks will qualify for the "True Shaper" Hall of Fame.

I would agree with Slarty. The Shapers don't seem have any especially rigorous system of titles / ranks. Some people have authority and everyone knows who they are, but they don't make deal out of job titles or ranks as status symbols.

2 hours ago, Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch Cherry Bomb said:

You do get ending modifications if you use a lot of canisters, but I don't know what the cutoff is in G2.  Numbers between 6 and 10 have been speculated in the past, 6 most frequently.

My own testing in the past indicated that 10 is the threshhold for G2. Use up to 9 and the ending is unaffected; use the tenth and the endings will be altered. Also, I tested whether getting "modified" by the Awakened or the Barzites or the Takers so you can use high level abilities has any effect on the ending / your "canister count." I can confirm it does NOT.

I'll be really curious hear Alhoon's reaction to the Taker, Barzite, and Awakened endings, to see how satisfying / plausible you find them, in light of your...expectations.

2 hours ago, Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch Cherry Bomb said:

And actually, I think there is another option in the Valley with better odds of successfully standing up to the Shapers in the long run...

Now I'm really curious which of the three Slarty thinks had the best shot...?

2 hours ago, alhoon said:

there are several contradictions within the games and as far as I've been in GF2, within the game itself.

I would just like to point out, Alhoon, that you totally missed Nora in the Drypeak Warren and might never have spoken to her if I didn't guide you there. There have been other times in Geneforge lore discussions where you haven't necessarily shown yourself to be the most meticulous of investigators when it comes to Geneforge lore.  Your enthusiasm for this lore is probably unrivaled but it doesn't seem to always result in play patterns that yield a complete picture. So when you say you think Jeff made a mistake in this or that aspect of the game, I'm skeptical. It's possible Jeff made a mistake, sure (I know of at least one thing I'm 99% sure is a mistake in G2), but it's also very plausible, based on the past, to suppose you just overlooked relevant information or are conflating the circumstances and lore of one game with the changed circumstances you witnessed in a later game.

"I know you are just an apprentice, and I have learned a valuable spell for helping serviles when they get sick." - Thossila. There's no reason to see any oversight or retcons here. Without assuming any mistakes on the part of the author (i.e. Jeff), we can reasonably suppose that Shapers themselves taught the keeper this spell. Not all magic is shaping, a fact clearly and repeatedly established throughout the series. The G2 opening text introduces the Shapers as the oldest, most secretive, and most powerful of all magical sects. Plural. As in, there are kinds of magic that aren't shaping and sects of magic users who aren't Shapers. I'm not sure which dude with a magic book you meant when referenced such an individual above, else I'd check him out, too. The Shapers are top dogs, and they do try to regulate magic, but it's not something excluded to all but themselves.

We really should give authors the benefit of the doubt and consider if there's a plausible non-contradictory way to interpret their text(s), rather than assume that because two data points don't line up exactly as we would expect, they are incompatible and one must be wrong. Yes, sometimes fallible authors absolutely do mess up. But I think you tend to allege contradictions far more often than is warranted.

And yes, you get the Trakovite ending inG5 by working for Litalia.

Oh, yeah, as for healing... While recognizing the need to be cautious about reasoning from mechanical aspects of the game to game lore, recall that all of the healing magic the PC does is listed on your character screen as a class of shaping. It uses essence. It IS shaping (of a very specialized sort), no question. I would say the very nature of the PC's own healing abilities (as well as various NPC Shaper characters who are mentioned as healing themselves during fights) strongly implies that healing is special category of shaping exempted from the standard Shaper rules against self-shaping. I don't recall any of the games ever addressing the exact limits of medical shaping, however, so I'm doubtful you'll find any authoritative answers to exactly how much one allowed to heal using shaping.

G3 specifically mentions the long-lived nature of servant minds (when you talk to the one in Darkstone Mine, IIRC). I found the quote I was thinking of in G4: "We minds are not a long-lived race. We used to live for a long time, but no longer. The Shapers modified us. Our newly shortened lifespans are one of the limitations the Shapers gave us, in their wisdom, to keep us from being a danger to them." - the mind at Uchitelle's Grove. As I said, the changed servant mind model was a choice by the Shapers; it had nothing to do with lack of skill.

The servant minds in G1 are, as it were, VERY traditional versions of the servant mind. You might even say they're old school.  

I'm pretty sure one of the later games (G4 or G5) mentions that Shapers have modified the design of new servant minds to be weaker and shorter-lived than the traditional version. Theoretically, then, the servant minds you meet in G1, G2, and G3 are all of the same basic design.

A loading screen in G5 explicitly says of the kyshaak "base material - reptilian stock, large fyora influence."

I almost hate to say it...but if you really want to learn about servant minds, you'll need to play G1, the game where they play by far the largest role in story and world-building.

I hope that when you fine folks finish up this delightful (but confusing ) mechanical discussion, someone *cough*Slarty*cough* summarizes the key points in a separate thread about G2 creation mechanics.

1 hour ago, Blind Weakness Services said:

Maybe it was G4 that added more of those?

G3 is where I first noticed resistances playing a really significant role in my ability to deal damage.

I don't think drakon origins are very complicated, Slarty.

Am I missing something?

3 hours ago, alhoon said:

as Triumph said earlier those are "alternative history".

Just to be clear: the canonical ending of G2 (based on what we find in G3) most closely resembles the Loyalist or Unaligned ending of G2. Joining the Barzites, Awakened, or Takers in G2 results in an outcome that is cool and interesting but which diverges from significantly from what we find in G3.

3 hours ago, alhoon said:

So there is at least a strong possibility that Drayks didn't just evolve further generations into Drakons through Shaping, they actually got in a pool as Drayks and got out of it as Drakons?

Perhaps you should just keep playing the game to learn more about this.

There are, or have been, threads discussing identity of the PC in G5.

But there is no definitive in-game answer.

Please do NOT necro old threads that no one has posted in for three years. Just make a new thread and include a link to the old material you have a question about.

Since I'm here anyway, the answer is no. The crafting recipe list is comprehensive. It would be a poor list if it left off a slew of craftable items. If something isn't listed in the recipes, then you can't craft anything with it.