Evnissyen

So... what you're saying is that Chucky is the answer? ...I... I mean McCain. Sorry. What I mean is: we need an Iraqi-style "parliament"? At least that's sure to get all the authority figures killed... one by one. Yeah, I don't see it working without a lot of strong negotiators and strong leaders. Clearly the Trakovites are the best hope for the world of Geneforge; only they can talk sense into all the warring factions (excluding the Drakons, of course, who are best wiped out of existence, sorry Drakons)... probably Khyryk would be a virtual Thomas Jefferson in this scenario... but you'd need a Ben Franklin too, and a George Washington as a capable and benevolent authority figure, and an Alexander Hamilton to put the whole thing together into something that is actually sustainable and viable... but I babble.

21 seconds? Are you joking? I could tie both of my shoe laces, and both of yours, in that time. Arrows are not toy airplanes.

The protections on that item are attractive, but I'm still unconvinced that giving up your shield for the sake of a pole weapon which does somewhat more damage than a sword is an advantage... especially if you're equipped with a valuable shield like the Assassin's Shield. Besides... With my fiery sword doing 50-150 damage per blow: I'm not sure how well the Jade Halberd would compare.

In regard to archers, and I think I mentioned this before: In real life, bows are a formidable weapon and can kill or disable a human being in a single strike. In A4 and A5, if not the earlier Avernums which I haven't played: The bows don't seem very powerful. A6 definitely needs more powerful bows, and deadlier archers. On the subject: The Romans developed a heavy javelin that would penetrate an enemy's shield and would be very difficult, in the pitch of battle, to remove -- thus making the shield useless and exposing your enemy. Also, fighters of exceptional strength and heavy weapons should be able, I think, to shatter an enemy's shield in a couple blows. But here're a few more ideas: 1. Damage bonuses with certain types of weapons (melee, poles, bows, thrown, magic) should increase in proportion with the amount of time spent using them. 2. The player should have some cability of telling things such as his/her character's dodging ability & to-hit percentages, which are not provided in the character info box. 3. Instead of restricting certain quick key slots to either items or spells: give the user the option of assigning a quick key to an object or a spell (and reduce or extend the slots in the character profile accordingly)... this including the function keys f1-f4 which, honestly, I never use. With both the Avernum games and the Geneforge games, I always have more spells that I want at the ready than there are slots for. -- or: You could try to squeeze in a second row of options (possibly optional), that besides being clickable can be accessed by pressing down SHIFT in combination with the designated function key. 4. More realism in relation to people's reactions and attitudes toward me, and more significant consequences. In other words: their personalities, attitudes, prejudices, moments of taking offense should matter; if I offend them then there should be consequences. I shouldn't be able to reinitiate conversation and find it's as if the person never heard me say what I've just said. And... when a dialog box says a character leaves the room, I should be seeing the character leaving the room once the dialog box closes (or else find them gone). 5. More variety of character images, or at least different ones. Honestly, I'm tired of ones I'm given. I usually like to pick the innocent-looking guy for my primary character, although he's got a cross and all, because he resembles me more than the guy encased in what looks like some sort of modified garbage can (I hate that graphic)... and it gets tiresome using him all the time. Also: character forms and roster-images should match; otherwise the player should be able to choose one roster-image & another character form . . . Also: I agree with the people who say more spells!. And too many of the spells are repeats & improvements of the other. And there're maybe one too many fire spells in A5.

I've got the Avernum blues, again... this time it's the Vahnatai Blues. I do not like those tumor-headed wobblies any longer. In A4, well, they were interesting characters, especially since some of them were so helpful, and they were decent fighters. But in A5 they're just jerks. The Blues means I don't want to explore any more of the Vahnatai's damn lands, or do their damn quests... what a chore! Especially while their little volcanic vents keep spritzing me with lava. I think that's maybe the one thing that bugs me in A5: the volcanic vents. I mean, I want to be able to slaughter ill-disposed species whom I do not understand in peace, not while volcanic vents are spewing fire and ash at me. Can't wait to move on... . I think maybe I'll kill off their whole village, before I do. There's probably political justification for that.

Ron Paul is the answer! (joking) Perhaps the best scenario is putting all the power (temporarily, of course!) into the hands of the Unbound Egos of the Drakons, thus necessitating a second war between Drakons and everyone else? But seriously, to tell you the truth: I happen to think the Trakovites are the most correct. Both the Rebels and the Shapers are both fairly right and horrifyingly wrong. The only solution is sabotage and destruction of both parties, except that in the resulting vacuum and devastation some new, selfish and oppressive power -- if not the Shapers once again -- would come in and seize control. Unfortunately, the Geneforge world is completely messed up and I don't see any way of fixing it. Perhaps G5 should allow you to play either a self-hating cutter or a world-hating sociopath? The game could be titled: Geneforge 5: No Hope Left!

I think there's a hidden meaning.

Regarding archers: In A4 I ended up hating my archer, especially toward the end, because no matter how many points I invested in her Dex, Sharpshooting & Bow skills, and no matter the finest bows in the game, she still couldn't apply much damage and therefore became pretty useless except as a means of draining my party of XP. I don't know how effective dedicated archers are in A5, though, since I didn't create one for A5.

I think there was some mention of the earlier versions of Avernum 'making sense'. I've been going through the earlier games... and from a very cursory look, I can see that the Exile series 'makes sense' in the sense that it's about as basic as you can get for a graphics-based RPG. Sort of stripping it down as much as possible, notwithstanding I've sort of played out my interest in such games long, long ago. Avernum seems to be an attempt to modernize, due to the times, Exile to some new notion, maybe, of what 'retro' means, and comparatively they don't 'make sense' because the 3d graphics are too primitive, they're incomplete. Not until Geneforge does the 3d gameplay begin to 'make sense'. I could be... and probably am... wrong on more than one of the above. But... when I go through them more closely I guess I'll start a new thread. Oh, yeah, and from a very cursory look: A3 seems to be a remake of E3. Again: This all requires further research... experimentation. I'll keep in touch.

Okay, maybe I don't remember the XP drains too well... I haven't played those games in a while. As to cryoas... well, it's true that there aren't a 'lot' of enemies who are resistant to cold... it's just that whenever one pops up, it's a little annoying when my cryoa's breath-attacks render 0 damage.. and then I have to move the animal up to the foe, thus prompting the foe to either back up out of the way (and out of range of my own missile attacks) or else give my cryoa an unpleasant thumping. Otherwise, as I've said, they're fairly good creations. I'm not complaining. Sure, once in a long while they're useless... and they're not the only ones who experience those occasional moments of what-do-I-do?... but generally they're quite useful.

Yeah, at least in A5 (don't remember if I tried it in A4): the keyboard system is pretty messed up and confusing. I mean, why do you have to press 7, for example, to move to the left, rather than 4? Another problem with the older games was talking to people and opening and grabbing stuff. Why have to type a letter every time I want to do one of these things? I'd rather just point and click. Disappearer suggested one of the things I think I meant when (I think) I asked this in the first place: the reasons why people who prefer the old games prefer the old games... . I think I was wondering if the old games had more complicated plots... . Nethergate didn't, exactly, that was more of a wander-around-and-do-things sort of game. And rather than making the dale look huge: the travel screen made the dale look tiny. It does seem to me that A5 is more complicated than A4 was, which is good.

That drawing is classic, Tullegolar. I don't know much about Erika Redmark, but Litalia didn't prove much of an opponent when I cut her down toward the end of G3, so my uneducated guess would be Erika Redmark. Besides, from what I hear: it sounds like Redmark was a true genius but Litalia was just an opportunist who was nevertheless clever enough a politician to get good standing with the rebel Drakons, and had a strong enough mind to withstand all those cannisters she took advantage of. Based just on hearsay: it sounds to me like Redmark was truly a self-made heroine.

Battle creations: At least in G3, I thought the Rotghroth (sp?), especially the one that dripped acid, was especially nice... also I've always liked the glaahk (sp?)... though not when I have to fight them. They're deadly creatures. The Wingbolt in G4 was nice (again, except when I had to fight one), maybe my favorite in the game. Eyebeasts are kind of nice, too. But these're high-level creations. Lower-level: take the vlish, I suppose, and the Cryoa... except that the Cryoa isn't so effective against creatures who are cold-immune. I think I remember doing a check long, long ago on whether or not creations stole XP and finding that they didn't... but companions like Greta (notwithstanding she's a very helpful companion) do steal XP. In the beginning of G3 it's good to tell the girl who wants to tag along with you to get lost... because she also steals half your XP and then runs off anyway after you're done saving her life. Um... I've never liked absorbing creations, especially when playing a rebel (in G4) or rebel-sympathizer (in G3) . . . it doesn't mesh with the rebels' ethics. I happen to feel that we should be allowed to simply 'disown' creations... especially if there's a certain 'reservation' for disowned creations, much like the one we're compelled to destroy in, I think, G3. But in general, though I tend to try shaping creatures on first play just to see what they can do for me, I, too, have not been a huge fan of towing creations along, and I've preferred to do the games as a loner... my biggest problem: creations're too costly (essence-wise).

I'm with Hawk King. Those online games are already there; go use them. Geneforge just doesn't work in an online scenario. It has a story. Online games aren't story-based, they're community-based. That's not what Geneforge is about.

Amazing... people who think walking characters, or well-drawn graphics, are a bad thing. Of course, Disappearer fairly points out that nearly all games have characters who can walk. I guess that could be an argument in favor of non-walking characters in Avernum, that being a break from tradition. In regard to laptops... unfortunately I don't have lots of money. (Of course: If I had more money I'd own a Mac, not a crappy Dell.) Besides, can't you attach a mouse? Those touch-pads do suck, all-around, with everything. And yes: the Disappearer-approved cleared-for-running option sounds good. Sandwich-time should not be compulsory! I should be able to choose when I want my sandwich!

Actually, it is possible to get upstairs without the Highground quest. Apparently the crazy shaman woman (can a female giant technically be called a woman?) only locks the gate and pockets the key if they know you're coming. I simply went in, slaughtered everyone (the lifts do still have be 'fixed'), and found the gate wide open. Then I went back to Muck, killed the killer cats from Highground who were spying on me, claimed the reward from Muck and then went to Highground (who, for some reason, didn't get the news and therefore weren't hostile to me), claimed the mayor's quest and then disappointed her with the news that I'd just slaughtered the Queen, and gained an exciting 12 XP... and still the place didn't become hostile. Honestly, though: killing giants, I think, is a little easier than it should be. I mean, really: Giants are huge! And powerful. Their only physical disadvantage is that they don't wear armor. Anyway... I do have two questions... one is whether or not the wheel-closed chamber in the upper level under the spire is accessible by any other means (my guess is no)... the other is how I can get the button out front to open the secret room. It says I know it shoudl do something but I don't know how to make it work... and, of course, on the automap I can see there's something hidden... so with those two things together I'm guessing it can't be just a teaser.

Thuryl: I live for being able to watch animated characters walk in smooth, well-coordinated fashions. It's one of my things. The better a character walks, the wider I grin and the harder I clap my fingers. Also, I prefer Family Guy to South Park. In regard to Nethergate Resurrected: Yes: As I've posted elsewhere, I loved the storyline and all the references to Celtic foklore. I payed for the game based on that, but the graphics, interface and sound were still disappointing in comparison to Geneforge & later, and I still feel that Nethergate with a A5 interface, graphics, sound and animation would make a killer game. Anyhow, in terms of movement: I do have to admit that Avernum, because of the long distances a character needs to travel, does not lend itself to casual animated walking. You do need to be able to cross long distances quickly... still: there could be an option, it's just occurred to me, where you could select a point on a map and then the game zips your party off to that point, while still allowing for pretty images of your character walking smoothly across a field. (...sigh!...)

I've forgotten so much of this stuff from A4. Whatever happened to Gladwell, anyhow? Granted he was crazy, and cast into the Abyss by A4, but I think we're missing a large chunk of Gladwell Narrative between his Bargha days and his Gladwell Tower insanity. He also, somewhere along the line, obviously lost the knack (or will) of socializing. Perhaps he's just been exiled one too many times and therefore he now hates people, even life, but only lingers on to prove himself to those who doubted him... ? I'm psychoanalyzing too much. I remember that the family near Mertis who killed people who refused to marry their daughter was rather disturbing. 3 sons being trained in the family business... of killing their sister's non-suiters.

I completely disagree with Disappearer, here. I much prefer the smooth walking animation to the non-animated characters in Avernum who somehow shift from square to square at remarkable speed. They could be legless for all I know; I can only assume that those tapping sounds are their footsteps. To me, yes, it might be a little tiring to have to wait for my character to cross an entire area just to get to, say, a boat (or, in G4: the energy field)... but it's such a tiny trade-off for being able to watch my character walk smoothly across a field. In Avernum my characters might be able to zip across a couple of miles of territory in a couple of seconds, but I'd gladly trade that off if I could watch them walk smoothly across the screen, as in the Geneforge games. I don't agree at all that this is "something no RPG should have". It adds too much to the game, I think, and: taking it out just because it's occasionally a small hassle is just a little bit petty . . . in my opinion... . Perhaps there should be an option in Geneforge to allow your character to run instead of walk... ? Although this would ruin some of the real-time charm, I think. Personally, I love it the way it is, I wouldn't change it at all.

SoT: A fair point, but... retro in my opinion is only valuable when it adds something. Well, for a lot of people there's either the nostalgia or just whatever warm feeling that sense of primitiveness gives a person... that's a value, true... but in the early days of PC's, people endured what we now find annoying because that was what was available. Nowadays, well, those limitations are just annoying. Honestly: It's not so much the graphics in the pre-Geneforge games that bother me so much as the difficulty in moving around and in grabbing and opening/closing stuff; it's tiresome. But maybe some day I'll get into them. In today's games: I do rather dislike what seems to be a lack of truly interesting material... there seems to be too much of a concentration on over-the-top, cinema-style graphics, animation and sound. It's just overwhelming, in my opinion. I prefer a simple interface and a good story with interesting characters and a lot of options. In other words: I wish they'd give up on the complicated visuals and put more effort into complicating the story and the experience. Rent: There's probably something to that, in regard to: which people prefer which games... but I'd suspect it's because those who found Spiderweb's games in pre-Geneforge times and liked those games payed for the games; those who didn't like them didn't pay for them... until Geneforge came along. In regard to moving around: It's very difficult in A3 and Nethergate, at least with the mouse. It has to be done with the keyboard, because with the mouse you just keep getting stuck whenever your lead character runs into something. In Geneforge and A4 & A5: all you need to do is click on a spot someplace, and zoom! Off you go! Although it is a little annoying annoying how, in A5, when your party is supposed to be zooming off someplace: suddenly some person decides to move in front of you, and you stop moving... . Why can't the game just have my party maneuver around him/her?

Yay, indeed. I'm pretty much bound to the Gladwell bargain, and I'm not sure yet if I have a choice or not with Coercion Act #3. Plus I have a suspicion as to whom the artifact in question might rightfully belong to, and it's not Landman. I'll end up killing Gladwell, anyway, 'cause he's an s.o.b. who has it coming. I mean: the bastard made me kill that poor drake just so he could make himself a coat? He's gonna die, and soon. His tower's mine, and everything in it. I'll take his skin and make a coat out of it. Maybe there should be an option for creepy revenge stuff like that. (Jeff?) I think Madrigan actually has an interesting point, here: Fantasy stories are pretty generally about Nice vs. Mean, wherein Nice always ends up, unlike in real life, winning. It's escapist, and it's nice to feel that, unlike in real life, you can be heroic and make things right and kill off all the s.o.b.'s. So... yeah, for me, too, I might decide initially to play the Mean one, but I have to be able to rationalize it; otherwise: in practice it just doesn't feel good, and games are supposed to make me feel good. In Geneforge 3 I was able to play for one side and then re-play it for another, because I was able to understand the argument for either side. In the case of A5, though: if I go through the game again I can never play the bidding of Highground in regard the Giants, and I could also never join the DSLs... because neither has provided me a rational argument that allows me to sympathize.

Okay: Anatomy. Is this useful for spells? Or only hand-to-hand combat (and, I suppose, bows and missile weapons)? Logically I'd guess it's not useful for spells, but I thought it'd be worth asking. It'd be a useful trait to train my spellcasters in, obviously, if it does increase the damage.

I'm with Madrigan, here. The graphics in A3, sorry, are just way too retro, which is to say they're just about intolerably primitive. Seriously, they look like they were made in the 80's, and I'm sure that that was the intention... but... game developers back then only had so many options, and so much memory to work with. They would've made prettier and more playable games if they could. Also, it's too damn hard to move around in A3. That's one of the major problems. Also, opening and getting at stuff isn't as easy. Same problem with Nethergate, although I did pay for the game once I got hooked on the storyline and the Celtic folklore references (I like Celtic folklore). The Seelie Court, the selkies, and so on and so forth. Celtic folklore is great stuff. But the graphics, the battle scenario, the sound, the interface... were just too weak for me to really appreciate. I found myself wishing that Jeff, instead of just repackaging the original game, had redone the interface and the graphics and sound A4 style. It could've made a great game, considering the material he had to work with. The first Spiderweb game I payed for was Geneforge 3. Between that and Avernum 4 I chose the one with the more interesting story... and the better sound and animation. Then I shelled out for A4 and played that one through, and that was a fun game, too. Now I'm addicted to the Spiderweb games, but I can't get into the early ones. Seriously... what is it that so many people here find so engrossing and endearing about the ultra-retro pre-Geneforge material?

I'm shocked, Emperor Tullegolar, at your attitude! The Avernites are not scum! Anyhow... Rent-an-Ihrno: Well... It's fun to feel personally involved in the game. I like games with a story, I don't like shoot-em-ups. I kind of like to feel involved in the game and act according to how I would in real life, and treat dilemmas with some attitude of seriousness. You choose to be evil, or you choose to be your self, or you try to find some other route (if the game allows it). The Geneforge series was better, I think, with the questionable virtues and rough edges of certain allegiances. In G3 You had to choose, eventually, between two factions, and both factions were Wrong. G4 offered a 3rd faction, but unfortunately it wasn't too viable a one. Oh, yeah... and as far as cruel towns go... Highground is not really up there, in my opinion. They're only protecting their own interests, if somewhat fanatically. If you want to talk about cruel towns, take Spire in A4 (in the Abyss). There's a town I wouldn't want to live in.

Damnpeoples: Well, it's almost springtime again (at least in new England), so I guess you'll have to wait another few months. Curses! Myself... I think it's about time I found a job. Except, well, it's almost spring... . Grindstone: Wait... so... if I have this right: you're suggesting we should have 4 extra lives in case we screw up? Like... um... Donkey Kong? Are we time-traveling back to the 80's? I thought games were supposed to RELIEVE stress, not induce them? Otherwise we'd probably need surgeon-general warnings on the packages. It's bad enough that our own food is killing us... .