Evnissyen

Hmm... Since I gave myself the Gladwell Geas, I only know this situation from killing the Drake, not freeing her, but I'll assume it's the same... nobody in the area gets mad at you except the people within the walls of Harkin's Landing (not even the guy lurking around outside the gate), and you never even need to set foot inside that town again, either... so there's no need for a mad dash to Exodus. And anybody who went straight to Exodus afterward should return to the Drakes Pillars region and talk to a few of the miners. One of them comes back to his mine and sells you stuff in thankfulness for your having killed off Lysstak and the other bandits. If I remember right I think he has a knowledge crystal.

Thanks, Thuryl. That's helpful. Especially regarging the weapon hit #'s. Anyhow... I think I remember another beta tester on this board (or was it Matt Pasek's walkthrough?) suggesting that spell level training is less significant than spellcraft, magery or Mage/Priest casting skill... are you sure they're all exactly equal? And... do you know if there's a point at which any of these max out, as you say? The walkthrough suggests that Mage/Priest casting level is only significant up to the level you need to learn a spell, and that anything higher is useless. Does each of those skills stop assisting you after 18? The walkthrough also suggested that one shouldn't train in more than one point in a spell... is that because, after three points (which are gained, of course, from spellbooks) there's no more benefit? Or is it still worthwhile to buy extra points in a certain spell if I happen to have the extra $$? And do you know if there's a point at which spellcraft maxes out in beneficiality? ...in fact... if there's a max-out point with these, then I should logically be able to add together all the numbers of the above, so that I can say that if they all add up to, say, 40, then investing more points in any of those skills is a waste of points? Looking at the walkthrough again, it suggests "8 dexterity is all you'll ever need"... I suppose that means I shouldn't've sold my Girdle of Might, thinking that it was less valuable than the Girdle of Avoidance (my Dex at the time was 10 without it)? Sorry to be such a tough questioner. I'm giving you all a run for your experience, here.

So, how useful is Strength in regard to increasing the power of your attacks. Through the character editor I don't remember finding it very useful. Same with Melee: In know you've responded to this already, but I'm looking for actual percentages, I guess. I want to increase my fighter's damage as much as possible, so: How helpful excactly are Melee points except to give access to Blademaster and combat disciplines? Right now my fighter has only 8 in Melee, Str 7 and Dex 12, but his Blademaster is currently 8. His attack damage, except with the fiery sword, is usually quite pathetic, which I think I remember being diff't from A4 (in which it was the Archers' damage which was always pathetic and could never increase, even with the best bows + Dex + Bows + Sharpshooter. By the way: Which of the above (Dex, Str, Melee) are the most helpful in calculating damage? Now that defense is less of a problem I'm less concerned w/ Gymnastics & Parry and more concerned w/ immediate damage. And in regard to Quick Action: Is there a point at which it's not worthwhile invesing in this trait? I'm currently at 13, but there're still many instances when my fighter doesn't double strike. (Woe is I.) I guess this is probably a dumb question, since I suppose I know the answer: until I always hit double. For spellcasters: Exactly how helpful is investing in Mage or Priest spells? Is Magery & Spellcraft more beneficial (disregarding characters who invest in both M & P skills... assume it's a character investing in just one)? Exactly how helpful is it to spend in M or P after you've attained the level necessary to get a certain spell?

Student of Trinity: (In regard "the 'zero to hero' arc': Yes! Yes yes yes! To everything you've said. Igor: Well, I've tended to stay away from Terror, lately, except in cases where I've got them cornered, because I hate when they run away. Unless it's an extra, powerful character that's been making a nuisance of his/herself, it ends up a wasted spell. Terror's only good when they DO retreat to a corner (or better yet: stay clumped in with the rest of the foes) while you slowly kill them. SoT again: I don't use daze much except when I'm in a virtual pickle, since it keeps me from using my area spells, even my beloved Electrocute Three spell. Mass Madness is better: I like watching my foes fight each other . . . but until I get the spell, those MM scrolls are few and far between, as they say. btw: Does anybody know how useful Prismatic Shield is? In the past... in Geneforge at least ("Elemental Cloak") it seemed more useful/effective.

Yeah, all I remember in that mad dash after I stole the papers, having taken the secret escape portal, is my very inconvenient encounter with a bunch of extant chitrachs (the only time in the game I was annoyed to run into a swarm of chitrachs... I mean, talk about bad timing... I was afraid the Anama would come and ambush me now that I was preoccupied (which they should've, but they probably didn't see me)... but I wiped the bugs out easily and actually, to tell you the truth, I don't remember fighting any Anama at the gate; I think I remember them just casually letting me through like they did when I did a trial run before hand? Maybe somebody else can share a different story and clear me up. But, anyhow... I did try PLEASELIKEME and then the Anama were friendly... and remorseful. I'm a little ashamed at having been taken in by them. I mean, as a skeptic I should've known better. They're a cult . . . meaning that they're a [devious] political organization and that conversion and mendacity is their game. Well, at least Jeff Vogel is apparently a smarter writer than I am a gamer, so I'm thankful for that. But this isn't real life, so I guess I let my guard down, and in my further defense: They were really the only people I'd encountered so far (except for one or two individuals) who were actually friendly to me and didn't treat me like somebody whom they were dying to stab... in some cases as they admitted, as we all remember I'm sure, yes yes yes.

Okay; I suppose that's something. Of course, in the 'big picture' as they say, it'd be really quite foolish, considering the benefits they give, to reduce my equipment and anyhow that would lower my armor% no matter what I took out, not raise it... though I can see that, early on, that if one found a piece of armor which provided 20% protection I could ditch a lot of the weaker gear in favor of less encumbrance, without losing much percentage. Yes, I do like this system better. Anyhow... in regard to my previous post responding to Crystal Blue, regarding spells... well, I don't like to feel like a fool claiming that the Finite God Torches spell is less effective than Ice Rains Down, which in fact is not the case unless of course the creature is fire resistant. And I probably sound like a jerk anyway because, well, you know how to play the damn game, so ignore all of that if it makes me sound less like a jerk? I feel guilty. Only: if you haven't found him already then you'll meet somebody soon who can remove the Anama geas . . . if you want to remove it; I don't know if there're any actual play-benefits after getting the goodies, since I haven't joined Anama (they wouldn't let me join because I played nice with Gladwell). Hope that doesn't spoil the fun for anybody. I don't think it will.

Might PLEASELIKEME help? Or PLEASEFORGIVEME? I haven't tried it. Last time I went to the Anama Lands teleporter I find the woman who was on that pathway between them and Tranquility was gone . . . making me suspect that the "suggestion" that the game made to me, via dialog box, that the Anama lands are now swarmed with Dorikas' people... is actually the case. Maybe I'll do an experiment soon and head down there. If this is the case then you and I can never return to the Anama lands... oh well. And I wanted to return to that Vahnatai site in the Howling Depths... .

Crystal: I don't know. Unless you're playing on TORMENT, I have no idea at all. Maybe try increasing your characters' Dex? Otherwise: a total mystery to me. I find the Spiderweb games to be quite easy when played on normal settings with four characters. Considering how much trouble you've been having, it mystified me that you'd choose to join the Anama... but now that you've professed your love of priestly powers (funny note: here on Earth they've no power at all, except in mind-control magic... interesting) ... well, now I guess I understand why you joined, except that without being able to cast HASTE you're probably being punished a great deal more? Also: Although Divine Fire is nice I don't think I've found it as damaging as Ice Rains Down and as powerful as Electrocute Three; and sometimes a simple, costless fireball is nice. Also, remember: some creatures are ice-resistant, so a priest's devastating Gelid Blow, which might hit another beast for 110 points, will shave off 1 point or none... in which case you'll need electricity or fire. My advice: Get rid of the Anama geas. Thuryl: Naturally I could derive a simple mathematical formula from those numbers, but I doubt it would relate in any way to the game. Can you explain more clearly how 2(20)=36? Maybe I'm missing something... I don't know what you mean by the armor multiplier problem. When I first noticed the reductions, at first I was mystified and annoyed (a little) . . . then it made since, remembering past games of illogical percentages like 120% that still allowed characters to hit you. It made sense to me that, by some system, armor compilation would cost you percentages. If the formula includes the # of pieces of armor you are wearing, so that all percentages being equal: n being the # of pieces, x being the percentage of each and A being the armor percentage: A=n(x)-n . . . I suppose that would make some sense to me, not in reality but in terms of keeping down the compilation effect. I guess it sounds like your formula, therefore, would be A=n(x)-2n.

I'm sorry, but that last post intrigues me far more than the original question. I could spend hours pondering the possible meanings behind it. (Really. I like it.) But as for levels vs. exp.: I've always thought that it was by level that experience gain is determined, which is why, I thought, a small roster who gains levels quickly soon finds themselves (or his/her self) going through very long periods without gaining level. The game assumes you're far more powerful than the monsters. I guess it seems to me that if the game took into account the power of the total party: then that would be more beneficial to singletons and thus he/she wouldn't have to spend long periods, after the first 7 or 8 levels, without a level gain simply because they're still in Chapter 1, or whatever? (Haven't played an Avernum singleton yet, so I don't know yet how quickly a singleton's levels are gained in the beginning, not calculating in the trait penalties.) ...Hmm... . It's a little too late at night for thinking these things through, mathematically, but perhaps it's worth thinking over.

I agree with Student of Trinity about preferring singletons, at least in Geneforge. I like the idea of being the lone Hero out to save whatever needs to be saved in the particular story I'm given. Also, managing creations is just too much of a hassle, especially since it's such a drain on valuable essence. Also, creations tend to become obsolete over time, especially when they max out their stats, and then you have to start over with a new one in whom, if you want it to survive, you must invest a ridiculous amount of essence. But Geneforge has always been my favorite series. Besides the superior graphics and animation and sound (especially G4), the story is just more interesting. One of my favorite moments in G3 was when I walked into one of the Shaper labs (as a shaper, remember), and my fellow Agent looked at my glowing skin and screamed: My god, what've you done to yourself? YOU'RE A FREAK! I mean, I just love that idea where, in Geneforge, you can totally mess yourself up with addictive substances in order to make yourself extraordinarily powerful . . . at the expense of a number of things, such as self-control and the ability to negotiate. As for godlike characters: I agree and disagree. I've always had problems with the Spiderweb games where they tell you you're a promising young nobody but then give you the ability to kill extremely powerful characters whom even whole armies of very well-trained heroes have been unable to defeat . . . or get at. I mean, there's just a limit to my ability to suspend disbelief. So Madrigan's desire for a semi-divine hero is well-taken, with me. However... I like Stories, and I like the struggle, and I like the idea of building myself up for the challenges ahead until eventually I'm ready. Still... I have used the editor -- once so far, to edit my pole skill (before I found the trainers . . . next time I'll go through them) so I could get access to Blademaster . . . now I'm strongly considering using it again to get access to Anatomy and also Riposte. My problem/reasoning is this: I don't want to waste a lot of levels spending my training on stuff I don't really want to spend it on just so I can get access to something I want. In the case of poles it was because the pole skill was useless to me and I didn't want to waste 6 or 7 or 8 levels on a skill I didn't need, just to get Blademaster which I DID need. For Anatomy, my fighter needs to waste two levels on Intelligence, which he doesn't need since he doesn't cast spells (and the mental resist bonus isn't enough)... so although I've forgone Anatomy for a long time, I'm strongly considering using the editor for that. The other is Riposte. I really want Riposte, but I can't get it. If I wanted to get it the honest way then I'd have to waste literally the next 11 levels, assuming there're enough knowledge crystals/brews to help me, on Parry and Blademaster alone until I gained access to it. Only then, at level 40 (if I get there; I assume I will), would I be able to add onto my Riposte stats, and by then I'm guessing it'll be too late.

Ugh, I always find potions (and wands and crystals) to be too much of a bother, so I just sell them. The only ones I keep are energy (which becomes less necessary over time if you have a high enough Int.) and health & poison, and I rarely ever use any of those, especially the last one. None of these potions (with corresponding spells) are as effective as the spells. And it costs AP to drink a potion just as it does to cast a spell. In previous games it was less costly on AP therefore they were more useful. And 60% armor? I'm at level 28 now and my armor's never been very far above 50% for any character. It's generally been between 40% and 50% for all of them... it's very hard to get the armor points racked up when the system subtracts armor bonuses by some strange system I haven't figured out. Also I don't spend points on Hardiness; it hasn't seemed useful enough, I think it would take too many wasted points to rack up on armor that way, and I've never trusted the armor % since I haven't been able to determine how beneficial it is (especially in past games where you'd have 120% armor and still be getting hit pretty commonly and substantially.) Disappearer: If level gain doesn't matter in damage or defense (except maybe resistances), then when a helm says +2 levels damage in combat does that mean nothing? I passed up the Helm of Khar because the 25% fatigue removal and +2 level bonus in the Warmaster Helm sounded more valuable. Crystal: I don't know; maybe it's time to start over with diff't characters w/ better placed stats? By now, with high dexterity and especially with high Gymnastics (extraordinarily valuable), plus a few points in extra tricks like Parry & Riposte, my fighter's become very hard to hit and inflict significant damage upon (except, due to low int., his mind-magic resistance isn't high)... so now I don't have to bother investing in his Endurance (it's now 7 for everyone). Quick Action I've found quite valuable. Double-hitting is a nice ability. For spellcasters: make sure your foes are distracted away from them, and also make sure they have enough Endurance to withstand assaults that only your fighter can withstand, if you have one. I don't know... here I am just throwing out random advice without knowing anything about your situation. You could also, I suppose, lower the difficulty level. If you didn't invest in any traits when you built the characters, well... traits matter. Otherwise, I don't know, I'd have to know more about your situation.

Yeah, Pyro... that is kind of odd. Why is the meal unsellable, anyway? In the older games we were able to make a modest profit off of them, though they were pretty heavy and therefore we could carry only so many of them... except in Geneforge 4, of course, when we were first introduced to our bottomless backpacks.

Yeah, I seem to remember being locked out of both rooms when I went back. Kherr was waiting for me behind the bars and I couldn't get to him. So I had to go back to an earlier save, row myself over to the Fang Clan lands and do the whole thing all over again but find Kherr and challenge him first. I don't have a save that goes back far enough to allow me to check on it again, so if anyone else with the Windows version happens to be able to... or is yet to go through it (Purry?)... then maybe they can enlighten us as to whether or not this actually is a bug in the Windows version? ...sigh... I really miss my Mac. They really are so much superior to PC's. This damn Dell sucks the long organs of all kinds of unpleasant species... with little effect.

I didn't want to mention that sort of mild spoiler, but now that the chitrach's out of the bag, yeah, they pissed me off there... after everything I'd done for them. I mean, I got rid of their damn chitrach problem! Now they're safe because of me! Well, except for the Dorikites (is that a word?) roaming through their lands. Of course, I guess it doesn't help that I stole their sacred scrolls; so who'm I to complain? When I saw that traitor there I went back to my Anonaria save in order to kill Micklebur before I left, to see how it would change the story if he wasn't there to greet me in the Depths... foolishly without realizing that (obviously) the whole damn area (not just the town) would turn hostile, which was just too annoying to deal with. So much for that experiment. I'm a softie, though. I forgave Micklebur and didn't kill him. It seems Dorika's people forced them into an impossible situation. They're peaceful people who only wanted peace and freedom, and Dorikas didn't give them much of a choice. It just sucked, though. I liked the Anama; I mean: they were actually friendly to me.

Oh, well, I can see that didn't work in your post... but I just looked into the UBB coding on the left, apparently I was unaware of it... so I guess we'll see if this works . Whee!

I think that if I go through this game again I'll do a four-member party on TORMENT. I haven't tried that before and it seems appealing. And NO GEASING this time! Damn that Gladwell; I can't wait to kill that S.O.B. . . . but it's been interesting seeing what he decides to make me do; I don't regret it, the geas is kind of fun, in it's own way. Although, one advantage I noticed early on of having just 3 characters: It's easy to fit your whole party into a small room or house, in case you need to shut the door to keep people from seeing you steal something. Cake: It seems to me that goofing up on what turns out to be wasted training is part of the learning process, which adds to the fun in the game, I think. (Maybe this contradicts the thread I just added about the more helpful and less helpful traits to train in?) So when you play the game again, or you play the sequel, you'll have a better idea of how to train your character initially and from then on. (More than once, with A4, I stopped playing part-ways in and started over, when I discovered that I'd done some training or bought some items or what-not that I really, really came to regret.) And as for making things easier for new gamers... methinks that a 4-person roster on EASY is pretty generous as it is, so I don't feel a great desire for optional power-up features; though I think I see your point. Ociporous: Is it really useful having two fighters? Most of the power lies in the spellcasters, I've found. I'm still trying to decide, if I go back to four characters in A6 or in a second run of A5, what my fourth character will be... having another mage/priest just doesn't appeal to me. I've been thinking going back to an archer but adding a thrown-weapons skill... but the thrown weapons don't seem to exhibit much more power, later in the game... plus having to juggle all those different kinds of spears and javelins, I don't know. Having a separate pole-fighter sounds interesting, but again... two fighters seems redundant to me. Moving on: Over time I, too, have found it useful to share mage & priest skills between my mage and priest. My mage wanted a cold spell (smite) and an exorcise spell. My priest, in turn, kept nagging me for that Icy Rain spell she was so jealous of. And eventually I had to give my fighter the Firebolt, since there are occasionally fights in which conventional weapons don't do any damage (or, say, just 1 point).

...At least up to a point. I've suspected this in previous Spiderweb games, but now with the character editor I'm sure... that it's really only the special points that are truly helpful . . . best example: a very high level of Gymnastics seems to make a character nearly invulnerable to attack. I have, of course, noticed that my mage's mage spells, because of higher level training, are more effective than my priests -- and vice versa -- even though they've the same in Magery. But I've stopped spending on Spellcraft in favor of Magery... For my fighter I've stopped spending on Strength & Melee in favor of Blademaster (and the higher fighting disciplines seem to require too many battle skill points), and I've left Dexterity in favor of Gymnastics. I'm wondering: Is it still worth it to spend on Strength & Melee? Going through the editor it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I don't know; maybe now that I've got a sword that actually delivers significant damage, maybe I'll try going through the editor again to see if I can determine what differences matter. I like the Quick Action very much... twin blows appeal to me; but I don't see much value in Quick Strike, it just doesn't seem as useful. Maybe when monsters start getting in the first strike more consistently; they almost never do. Two things: I wish Hardiness (and Resistance especially) made a larger difference in your resistances; and I wish Endurance had a larger effect. Gaining just a few extra endurance points at level 30 just doesn't feel right to me. In terms of point compilation, I think maybe it should follow the example of Intelligence. ...although with Gymnastics, Endurance seems less important, now. Especially when my fighter's using bladeshield.

Yes, I couldn't live without Haste. I use it in nearly every battle. It's truly invaluable. But methinks, unless I'm mistaken (the beta testers, like Randomizer, would know more about this than I, of course), that the priest long-term shield spells (Steel Skin & Enduring Shield/Armor) are more important. But as far as mage spells go, Haste is the most valuable, though I find Augmentation indispensible as well. Other than that: for major foes my mage's first action is almost always Slow + Spray Acid (at least for foes not resistant). Reasonably effective . . . and Slow, unlike Terror or Control Foe, almost always works. Also, I couldn't live without my mage's area spells. I love that lightning spell, there's just such a feeling of power in it. I like the special effects of that spell. The motive squigglies; and then that satisfying sonic boom. In regard: DIVINE TOUCH: I've never actually tried that before. Too costly, and I always have to get my mage and priest their appropriate traits when styling their characters, in the beginning. And the fighter... This time I think I went with . . . what is it called, Fast on Feet? + the born warrior one (what's that trait called?). What exactly are the benefits of Divinely Touched, besides being a huge drain on your XP gains? (I know that's corrected when you cut down on the # of characters in your party.) Does it just make you a sort of Jack-of-all-Trades?

Clarification on Maloesie's post: You get to revive your character, not the Worg. And a response to Randomizer's post: It might be a bug in the PC version... but I challenged Kherr, at first, AFTER I did the trial, and therefore wasn't able to get to him (they wouldn't let me through to get to him since I did the trial already)... so I had to do the whole thing over again, challenge him before the trial and then meet him at the end of the trial (head north from the cache they leave for you).

Yeah... actually, from my AD&D days when I was just a wee wee boy, I seem to remember something like an Enchant Rope spell, or Magic Rope... which wouldn't need to be tied, it'd just straighten itself upward and up you go. But that kind of stuff -- the magic rope, the flying spell, even the crumbling of thin walls... kind of threaten to take a little of the fun out of Avernum, which is: searching for alternate routes... although admittedly the developer can get around the above-mentioned tricks in various ways... but then again: why should a developer HAVE to program around those options? I mean, why not keep things as simple as possible and only expand when it offers something worthwhile... such as developing characters' personalities, adding to the strategic atmosphere (which A5 does, over A4), to the concept of consequences (ditto)... to the VERITABLE VERISIMILITUDE (I wish these forums would allow HTML code; caps don't give the same sense of facetiousness as italics). (For example: Why is it that when a dialog box tells me my conversant charges off in a huff, wanting nothing more to do with me... or tells me that they run out of the room because duty (not THAT duty) calls... the box closes and they're STILL THERE!) Dammit. My Irish is up.

Damn those people who post when i'm posting so that when my post is posted it ends up being out of flow. In regard to said Sword of Ultimate Victory... would this be that fabled viral sword that you can carry unsuspecting into other people's games and exact all sorts of ultimate victories, much to the progamming's dismay? Anyhow, there is a better reason for my double posting: When I went through those rapids I remember I saw a stone worker... one of those skinny brown animated stone things that are neither sentinels nor golems... that needed help: "If somebody doesn't come soon to give it some orders..." that sort of thing. It might go completely rogue! I'm still looking for the quest to give it help. I'm beginning to suspect that said quest doesn't exist, considering how far along I am from there by now.

Yeah, I had to go back and look at an old save to find that place, and... interesting... there's an alluring little mound of dirt where a cache is supposed to be hidden, and I never found an entrance to it. Why is it that people bury things in Avernum... in dirt or stone I don't know... in the most random places, and carelessly leave little mounds to mark it? I find that amusing. But as far as Randomizer's joking about constructing ladders and such... actually I guess it would be cool if you could do that sort of stuff in Avernum. Or at least cast a floating spell and float up there. There was a wand in Nethergate... but that one only worked on downward journeys. I hated how I couldn't magically climb ledges with it. Damn, I'm being critical again. Somebody should teach me a lessen. No, actually I take the above back. There's definitely such a thing as too much complication in a game. One of the things that makes the Spiderweb games so fun & charming is the relative 'simplicity'. I've said that before, I think. I'm babbling again.

Woah: Maybe that's where I found it; thanks. I did make a trial run into the HD zone (more on that later, maybe)... I'll look again when I finally head out for real... which is just after I get this gooey head back to Shanker ... and then (finally -- hopefully) vanquish the Cheeseballs.

Yeah, as far as I remember: just ask Tiacoura (the mage -- Miss "Oh, sorry I was called away for a few minutes, so how're we doing with those sentine-- oh dear... .").

Well, the center is a good way to start off, I think, 'cause you get to give the bugs a little intiation to what's coming up for them. Choose either the east one or the northwest one and they'll lead you both to the Queen and to the Mindwarp Chitrach eventually. The bugs break down their own walls to ambush you from time to time. (And also, yeah, as always watch out for secret passages.) By the way, while we're on this subject: I seem to have found a knowledge crystal somewhere around here but then lost it. All I seem to remember is that I think I found it in an experimental run and then didn't pick it up because I went back to my quicksave to proceed as normal. Now I'm sans-knowledge-crystal, and it's bugging me because I love knowledge crystals like I love the cannisters in Geneforge.