Vicheron

If the PC isn't a PC from the earlier GF games then he could be Phariton, Master Hoge, or Monarch. Phariton was crazy and performed all sorts of experiments, so he could have gotten in an accident. Master Hoge had a bad canister, which could have caused him to lose his memory. Monarch could have been attacked by one of his own rogues when he tried to escape.

I think that if the war had dragged on then Rawal would eventually become like Barzahl. If it wasn't for all the Shaper restrictions, he would definitely be using canisters and the geneforge. Given enough time, the Shapers would not longer be able to watch Rawal and he would be able to use all those banned techniques. Like Barzahl, Rawal doesn't care about creations and he develops a sorts of new ways to control them. It's interesting how the rebellion was pretty much destined to fail. Master Hoge, Litalia, and the G3 PC were pretty much the only Shapers to align themselves with the rebels (Greta doesn't count since she was expelled). Master Hoge only did it because of the power he gained. Litalia did it partly because of the canisters and partly because she believed in the cause. Trying to get Shapers on their side was a big part of the Taker/Awakened/Rebel strategy but that just ended up failing miserably. It's the same thing with the humans. Most of the humans who joined the rebellion either did it to gain power or because they didn't understand shaping. They didn't fight because they wanted creations to be free.

If I have 5 points in melee combat it should cost 6 skill points to train to 6 but it costs me 7 skill points to train from 5 to 6. This has happened to me very early in the game before any trainers and special equipment, when I'm barely out of Blackchasm.

There's nothing in my inventory that reduces skill points. It happens to more than just 1 skill.

For some reason, some of my character's skills get reduced by 1. For example, my character has 6 melee combat skill but it gets reduced to 5 for some reason. It still counts towards special skills like blademaster but it doesn't count towards battle discipline. Also the cost to train the skill is as if it was one point higher than it really is. So the character would have 7 melee attack but it would cost 8 skill points to increase an extra point. It's not a game killing problem. I just use the editor to give the character an extra point in the messed up skill. However, it is pretty annoying.

Even if you don't have non-humans, the Darkside Loyalists say that they have nothing against Sliths and Nephils as long as they follow the rule of the Empire.

1. It's kind of pointless how the price on items is four times the money you can get by selling them. Why not just put that price on them? 2. Shops need to carry better items. The usefulness of stores have decreased with every new Spiderweb game. In the more recent games, the only reason you go to stores is to sell your stuff. All the good treasures can be found or forged. At least in Exile, shops occasionally had rare and cool items like ring of resistance, rune helm, boots of speed, etc. Shops need to sell rare and unique items. 3. The price of training has to be reduced. That's pretty much the use for gold in the A4, A5, and the Geneforge games. 4. Bring back the spell system from A1-3 where spells gain additional benefits when you learn them at a higher level. Right now, there's really no point in training spells above level 1.

Quote: Originally written by Synergy: Oh come now, if you think there's "no way" then it's just for a lack of imagination. It's not as simple or universal in application. It would be quite a challenge to design well. Let me take a random crack at some of your situations here: • Fighting ogres: running into a pack of ogres would be likely fatal normally, unless you had access to some kind of dazing/freezing magic. You do have skills that tend to keep you from wandering into packs of enemies though, so you are usually making the choice to do so. For larger packs of formidable foes, you might have to use stealth to lure individuals out or to make assassinations (assuming you had someone skilled enough. The game could tell you your odds of success in some fashion.) I like the idea of the PC talking to the group: "I really think I can do this!" "I don't think I can handle this yet." "I think I might be able to do this." Etc. I like the human element better than looking at some mathematical prediction for an outcome. If you failed an assassination, you could be 1) killed, 2) injured and require healing/resting, 3) discovered and, if you are quick enough relative to the ogres, you might escape unharmed, 4) you have led angry ogres back to the rest of your party and you probably had better run. Other skills could figure in to your ability to confuse, slow, evade, and hide from such critters. Or you could just hammer it out if you are playing the typical rpg with a bunch of hit points on each side with predictable and boring results. • Dealing with magic. Personally, I'd craft a world in which magic is much rarer, harder to learn, only usable more occasionally as it depletes the caster. Magic would be more exciting if it were more dangerous and rare when you encounter or use it, but at a higher price all around. Evading magic attacks or having enough armor to protect you against things would be figured into how likely you are to survive magic. Acid would destroy your armor...at the least, on the first hit, or some percentage of it. More than 2-3 hits and you have no armor left. That's expensive. You will be motivated to avoid acid like the plague, which you should. Getting hit with acid once your armor is toast is, for all practical purposes, fatal, beyond minor dosage. I don't like acid attack as magic though. I'd make it an expensive and rare lobbed potion or a fired projectile. Acid is not easy to come by in the ancient world. Some elemental magic as offenses seems more organic to a world where magic might actually exist. You summon fire or ice or water or earth from the environment around you, or perhaps an elemental to fight for you for a time, but only as long as your essence can support it. Magic fatigue would mean that after it drains out, your elemental crumples. Using magic should be very draining though. Very powerful, but shorter-lived. In order to face fantastical enemies of great ability or strength, you'd better have a strategy on hand to outwit its advantages...either with magic to hamper it, stealth, assassination, poisoning to weaken it, sending some purchased or acquired critters (say trained wolves) in first to soften it up, luring it into a trap where you can use the terrain to your advantage. A thief/rogue PC should be able to set traps to lure foes into. If you have a strong rogue, you could do some real damage, or fatal damage to something with nothing else, potentially. But everything has a cost of some kind, monetary or energetic, and you have limited resources, so choose carefully. A game would give you clues and cues about how you might take on enemies of certain kinds. Just running in and fighting whatever you find anywhere you go without being versed in what you are facing would mean almost certain doom. This all seems more realistic, varied, and quite doable, if you are willing to create a game with these kinds of dynamics built in. It would be a slower and more methodical, thinking, and experimenting game. But give me lots and lots of highly varied choices how to go about achieving my ends, often with multiple possible ways to get there. -S- P.S. I like the idea of having/recruiting numerous PCs to your party. You'd only take the ones out relevant to your goal or mission at the time though. You couldn't afford to wander around with all ten of them all the time, and some would be too vulnerable to the situation at hand. How much fun would it be to even hire that mage in the city to go on a mission with you, so you can beat a nasty boss and get its awesome treasure or weapon earlier than you normally would. It's gonna cost you though, but it might be worth it. Stash your rogue at the inn when you are going on a whack-fest. Bring your rogue and elf or whatever is sneaky, fast, and quiet, to scout out your enemies' camp. Send a spy into a potentially unfriendly town. You are limited only by your reputation and means to hire/induct people to your cause. We're dealing with a game series that has an established history. Magic is very common. Even in Avernum where magic is supposed to be hard to come by, there are mages and clerics in pretty much every settlement. A lot of the flora in Avernum was created by magic. Even primitive tribes of goblins have access to magic. Avernum is a high magic world and there's just no way to get around that. It's not impossible to make the game more "realistic" but it would no longer be an epic adventure. The game would be limited to weak characters dealing with small numbers of enemies in more neutral territory. While past Avernum games involved getting into extremely hostile territory and fighting large battles against very powerful enemies. Trickery and strategy can only get you so far. Getting a small force of adventurers into a heavily guarded Empire fortress is already hard enough. You're already sneaking room to room to slowly kill off enemy troops. Just how much strategy can a group of 4 adventurers use against armies of elite troops, lairs full of fire breathing lizards, and flying monsters with thousands of eyes capable of leveling cities?

Avernum is more of a "traditional" fantasy RPG. There are tactical RPG's out there, like Fallout, Jagged Alliance, and Silent Storm. However, that type of gameplay doesn't really fit into the high powered worlds like Avernum. The characters in Avernum are not limited like real people. At high levels, your characters basically become demi-gods. A high leveled mage can incinerate an entire army of average soldiers. A high leveled warrior can take hits from a massive dragon and still remain standing. The whole hit point system is supposed to represent how incredibly powerful your characters are. Not only can they shrug off blows that would pulp an average person, their fighting ability doesn't diminish even when they are nearing death. If Avernum was made more "realistic" then there would be no way for you to fight the fantastical enemies that are common in Avernum. How would you take on a dozen ogres, each one with the strength to crush a man's head with one blow? How would you deal with magic, having no way for your character to avoid being covered by acid and horribly maimed for life?

Wouldn't it be easier to just make combat disciplines like spells? Instead of using mana, use stamina, which could be based on endurance and strength. You could get some basic techniques automatically by increasing your combat stats and learn more advanced techniques from trainers and books.

Quote: Originally written by Nija_Halycron: I think I saw a game that had this theme once, you could walk around, do stuff, fight post-atomic mutants and even marry a wife and rais a family. pity it was 16+, it looked quite good. Fallout

No one in Avernum uses mounts either. Even the Empire troops in Avernum 3 didn't have mounts even though we know that they use horses.

What class are you? How could your Fyora only have 23 levels? It should at least be the same level as your character.

It would be nice to get extra perks from having higher skills. Like if you had 6 dexterity and 8 melee you could wield a dagger instead of a shield, if you had 8 dexterity and 12 melee, you could wield a shortsword instead of a shield. If you had something like 6 dexterity and 8 throwing weapon, the AP cost of throwing weapons is reduced by 1, if you had 6 strength and 8 throwing weapon, you do extra damage if your target is close to you. I would also like to see some of the minor mysteries expanded upon like the giant lizard statues with the Bloodthirst Spear near Khoth's lair, the Vahnatai with the Jade Halberd near the surface exit, the Slith with the Obsidian Spear in the spore tunnels, and the Cthulhu-esque Bug shrine.

The only way to balance out more powerful races would be with experience penalties and weakening the race. It is not going to work for the Vahnatai Even the two non-human races we have now have been weakened. Nephils don't get the dexterity bonus they should. Sliths don't get the strength and endurance bonus they should.

The Drakon have never been shown to sacrifice intellect for power, just sanity. The Drakons, and the rebels in general, do have the advantage of being able to share knowledge much faster with canisters and shaping. It takes years of extensive training for a Shaper to learn something while it would only take a few minutes for a Drakon to learn the same thing by using a canister. Presumably, the Drakons use this to their full advantage and shape each new generation with some innate knowledge. Of course the disadvantage of such a method is that they have no experience.

Don't the Shapers control two continents?

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: Quote: I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer. That's not comparing an army of lower tier creations with an army of higher tier ones. That's two v. one. Besides I already agreed with you on this IF you're running a small to medium sized team. Let's say I have one creation slot left and the essence for a gazer. Drayk + Wingbolt won't work. This comes down to a matter of playing style and PC class. You're still missing the point. We're not talking about endgame here. We're taking the entirety of the game into consideration. Even if you put all your points into intelligence, you are not going to be able to get 7 of the highest tier creations available as soon as you get them. Like I said before, you don't begin the game at level 40 with 1000+ essence. An army of 4 Drayks and 2 Wingbolts cost 604 essence. Do you have 604 essence when you first get Create Wingbolt and Create Drayk? An army of 4 Drakons and 2 Gazers cost 1170 essence. Do you have 1170 essence when you first get Create Drakon and Create Gazer? Quote: Quote: The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful. Actually it is the issue in my eyes. I'm starting to think that our disagreement is more on style than creation value. The lifecrafter that I had the first time through had 27 INT. That meant he was relatively weak. You may not like a PC that weak which means that you'll have less essence for your army. That's not wrong or right. It's just preference. I'll say this though: I've played all 4 games and enjoyed them. When I started this one I decided to try something new and basically ignore my PC's magic and combat stats for the sake of essence for monsters. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, cause that'd just be boring. I am saying that there's nothing like a strong team to completely and quickly crush foes. Where I really saw the difference was in the fens and the battle with the shapeshifting golem that has the four guardians around him (can't remember name atm). My servile and infiltrator struggled with these while the lifecrafter slid though with ease. I couldn't understand why you had the option of enlisting rebel soldiers until I played with the servile (I still didn't use them but I was tempted). This has nothing to do with playstyle. Even if you put all your points into intelligence and crafting. You will never have enough essence fill your 7 slots with the highest tier creations as soon as you get them. Drakons, Ur-Drakons, and Gazers are not worth their essence cost because they are useful for the least amount of time. You're going to have Drayks and Wingbolts around for a lot longer than Drakons and Gazers. You're not even going to get Ur-Drakons until the final quest in the game.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: Quote: If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence. If you want to prove that they're not worth the essence then you should do the same. I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer. Quote: I guess the only real problem is that i don't have the numbers for my experience. For example, I decided that I would use cryoas instead of cryodrayks. But even when I used my cryoas skill points to raise his stats he did not seem as good as a cryodrayk. It seemed that he missed more often, had lower endurance, didn't hit as hard, and got hit harder. I'm almost midway through the game now on a shock trooper and am still using cryoas. I guess I'll try to do a side-by-side comparison when I get drayk to 3. If you get a Cryoa as early as possible then they will be about the same level as a Cryodrayk when you get your third canister of create Drayk so they will have about the same stats. The Cryodrayk will have more hit points, hit a bit more often and hit harder but they cost 79 more essence. If you invest 4 more endurance into the Cryoa, it'll have about the same hit points as a Cryodrayk. If you invest 6 more strength into the Cryoa, it'll be more accurate and do as much damage as the Cryodrayk. The Cryoa will still cost 28 essence less than a Cryodrayk. Plus two unevolved Cryoas with the same level as a Cryodrayk will still be better than a Cryodrayk. Quote: Quote: Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations. I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost. The first time I went through the game with a lifecrafter I had 3 drakons, an eyebeast, and 2 cryodrayks. I still had 109 essence left to take care of my team. I rolled over all opposition with much greater ease than my servile or infiltrator. I felt like i was cheating somehow. I guess if what you're saying is true I could've gotten the same bang with 3 fyoras 2 cryoas and the beast. Man, that would save a lot of skill points into INT if it were true! Like I've said before, a great deal depends on your playing style and class. If youre strong on shaping then you can easily max out your 7 creation slots and have a bunch more essense to spare. That's when i think high levels become valuable. I reckon the real issue in our little discussion is this: Is a trained low level creation as good as a high level one?[/QB] Again, the example you gave is flawed. I never said that all leveled/evolved low level creations are better than high level ones. You obviously didn't have 1000+ essence at the start of the game. Even if you are strong in shaping you cannot max out your 7 slots with the most powerful creations available to you through the entire game. You don’t start at Northforge with 25 intelligence and access to all the creations in the game. There may come a time when you have 7 Wingbolts and plenty of essence left to trade in for a couple of Gazers but by that point in the game, you can already demolish everything with your 7 Wingbolts. The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful. The issue is which creations are the most cost effective, which means the creations that are useful for the longest time. Even a fully leveled/evolved Fyora is not going do very well against Mose but a leveled/evolved Drayk can still be useful against the Unbound.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: Vicheron, I was responding to you comment that the high level creations aren't worth the essence. I say basically the same thing you say regarding classes/builds in the latter part of my post. If you're working with a servile an couple of drayks or cryodrayks are cool. Still, I doubt that you can make a drayk better than a drakon. Then there is the matter of effect (e.g. ur-drakon, eyebeast) that can't be duplicated with lower levels. Your reasoning is flawed. If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence. You aren't proving anything by comparing an army that costs 1000 essence with an army that costs 500 essence. Obviously the army that costs way more essence is going to be more powerful. Even an army of the same creations evolved to cost 1000 essence is going to be more powerful than the same army that has only been evolved to cost 500 essence. A much better example would be a Drayk and a Wingbolt, which costs 227 essence, vs. a Gazer, which costs 219 essence. It's not very good idea for a Servile, Infiltrator, or Warrior to trade a Drayk and a Wingbolt for a Gazer. Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations. I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost.

Goettsch can't be alive. The Rebels would know if Monarch was someone like Spharon or Hoge. If it was the PC from the first game then the Shapers would at least suspect. Plus the PC from the first game never learned how to make canisters. Neither the Rebels or the Shapers knew much about Monarch. Phariton is the only canister using Shaper that no one in the current war would know about.

You didn't have to kill Phariton to get the loyalist/unaligned ending. He wasn't aligned with anyone. He knew that the Shaper Council would eventually come. He was in a pretty deeply trenched position. He created suicide creations. He knows how to make canisters and he's used a lot of them. He could have escaped before the Shapers came and gone to Gorsh to build his army.

Quote: Originally written by Stillness: [QB] Quote: I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks. The only problem with this line of reasoning is that the number of creations you can have is limited to 7. You can't just create more drayks once you reach the limit, so it's not a question of quality v. quantity. My 3 drakons, 2 cryodrayks and eyebeast would own your 7 drayks. I never said that you should only make Drayks. I also never said that you should pick quantity over quality. I said that you could make more Drayks than Drakons or level and evolve them to become better than Drakons but with a lower essence cost since you can get Drayks much earlier than Drakons. There's also the fact that 3 Drakons, 2 Cryodrayks and an Eyebeast costs twice as much essence as 7 Drayks. Let's also not forget that there are 5 classes and three of them don't have the essence to make many high level creations.

I bet Rotghroths cry acid.

Serviles don't have ghosts so there must be something that makes them different than humans other than their physical appearance.