I_am_a_Minotaur

Use grammer and spelling. I tried to understand your posts but could only understand the last one.

I don't suggest changing Monarch. He was simple on Torment for my servile. I found the final battle very easy though, even on Torment. That should be harder.

The slowing is bareable with 10 AP when not hasted, 9 Blessing Magic and 9 Spellcraft when hasted. Charm and Mass Madness divert the attacks and are real life savers whe fighting Ur-Drakons. Magic seems to have grown even more powerful than in G3.

This spell is powerful. I Just fought the Titan with a servile character and decided to try it. At first I hadn't used it, but had quickly been killed by the Titan and it's Southern Senteniel. So then I tried with Elemental Cloak(before I was using every other defensive spell). The damage taken was almost halved, and I managed to win. Is it supposed to be this powerful? It seemed too good to be true.....

On Torment he is impossible for a Warrior(for me atleast). I actually found the area outside very easy. The four serviles took only one attack and with a Wingbolt, it was very easy. The Inferno Worms died easily and the hatching chamber was easy to disarm for me. I only had to fight one Ur-glahk. As a servile the outer areas were even easier. It was simple to kill anything around there.

The Shaper dying sound is so real........ I wonder how Jeff got it?

That would be a Wingbolt. That's a creation.

My Servile was split between Melee and Magic. My Warrior was Melee with only enough Magic Shaping to make a Wingbolt. The problem was, that without magic as armour, he had to wear armour, which is too heavy for the amount of encumbrence that strength releases.

As a warrior I won by sheer luck. I must of tried 50 or more times. As a servile it was a walk in the park even on torment, while with the warrior I was at normal diffuculty level. I think its probably easy as every class except Warrior and maybe Shocktrooper. The problem is the classes, not the opponents.

The mage is usually dead by the second round. Shapers don't give that power to anyone but themselves. The enemy would have to be a canister user.

They always use Escence Orbs. They don't use any other spell. Have you ever seen a mage that knows Mass Madness or even Charm? Those are the only spells that would even test the minds of Shapers. Later on in the games have you seen a mage that trains high level spells? Randomizer - You also have the training to strengthen your mind. That is why you are a match for the Shapers and can Charm their creations.

Shapers use their will to control creations. They have trained their mind to be incredibly powerful. Have you seen a mage that knows Kill? I can't remember seeing one. I also seem to remember that in Dhonal's Keep, the magic school's most dangerous spell was Ecsence Orbs.

Shapers don't let mages have that kind of power. Magic doesn't give you an army. Shapers can make an army and can probably keep you from making it go rogue.

Ok, thanks.

So I have to be a Shaper and then release half the Unbound?

Hmmm........ That takes away a lot of my arguements. ET - There would have been war then, and the Shapers would have won and tried to force them off their continents. It would be genocide, it would be war.

Sorry about the spelling. I didn't realise I'd put the 2nd 'S' in. The drayks were a cause of shaping. Then the Shapers discriminated against them and tried to exterminate them. This wouldn't have happened without shaping. Each Shaper is like an army. Most of the people are not soldiers and would be crushed by the Shapers. The soldiers there are would be easily defaeted by the Shapers. Only the strongest soldiers would staaand any chance at all, but they wouldn't get close to defeating the Shapers. Have you met a soldier that can defeat a wingbolt before?

How do you get it? I made it so there were only a few Unbound and yet I got the rebel ending. What have I missed?

How do you get inside it?

People who generate wars are bad, yes. The drayk genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping. Also, the drakons wouldn't exsist, to wage a war, without shaping. A rock or stick won't give you world domination.

Shapers wouldn't exsist without shaping. There wouldn't be a way to have such absolute control. Also, shaping will end up in the wrong hands and will lead to destruction. Anything that generates wars is bad Nioca. Same goes for genocide.

That certain genocide wouldn't have happened is what I'm saying. Yes there are other tyrants but they didn't have wingbolts floating around killing their enemies. Canisters and the Geneforge are major factors. Look at the difference between Litalia in G3 and G4.

Quote: Originally by Kyrek: quote: Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks. What's wrong with drayks? They aren't inherently bad, either. On Sucia Island, Akkat, Rhakkus, and Syros were independent and intelligent but they also showed respect for your character (and also towards a few other figures) and loyalty to the Shaper who created them. It was the treatment of the drayks by the Shapers that turned them against the Shapers and forced them to create drakons. If the Shapers could have banned the creation of new drayks but left the remaining ones alive as a new race and with a place in Shaper society (probably in some sort of history- and research-keeping role, since they live for a very long time), then the rebellion wouldn't have been successful. Dikiyoba. I'm talking about how the shapers decided drayks should be banned and tried to kill them all. Quote: Shaper Monarch - I get the impression that such madmen are few and far between. Canisters - This is a good thing! The next step in evolution. 3 Geneforges - See above, only times a thousand. If everyone were so blessed by the geneforge, they would no longer fight against each other (see other thread) and it would mean the end of war. Drakons - This is why the shapers are justified in destroying these things. They want rights, but if all they can do is express themselves through violence I would rather die then see them allowed to live. Drayks - See above. Tyranny - There will always be tyranny, shaping or no. Mad Rebels - This is a result of not enough shaping, not too much. If only the Shapers would build their own geneforge and canisters, the rebelion would stand no chance. Gazers - Another mistake, but also one easily remedied with more shaping (of the destructive kind). Wars - Yeah... and a world without shaping would mean a world without war? Genocide - I think the shapers were content to allow some drayks to live out their lives on Sucia, it's only now that they have become a threat again that they deserve to die. SM - One is bad enough Canisters - There is no point arguing with you on this one. Geneforge - See above. Drakons - They wouldn't have happened if the drayks hadn't been shaped in the first place. Therefore, its shaping that created them. Drayks - They now help the drakons(though they hate them) and wouldn't exist without Shaping. Tyranny - But it helps tyranny. It makes tyranny easier because you have a super power that no one else does. Mad Rebels - This is the Geneforge and canisters fault. Without Shaping they wouldn't exist and neither would the mad rebels. Gazers - Someone used the Geneforge and went insane. They tried to make themselves a creation deadly enough to defeat the Shapers and came up with this monster. Once again, shaping's fault. Wars - It generates rebellions which leads to war. There would be less of them without shaping. Genocide - I don't think the shapers knew the drayks were there..... They banned them and they are a ruthless group of people. Quote: It seems the biggest cause of problems is not shaping itself, but the contageous notion of creation rights. One that seed of hope gets out there, it is difficult to crush. But I am confident that it could happen if only the shapers would stop restraining themselves. The world needs more shaping, not less! Creations rights comes from the abuse of Shaping. And look at the rebels now. The Unbound will be very hard to stop. Probably impossible to stop. That will just lead to a new reign of tyranny with the drakons abusing the power. The only way to stop the abusation of shaping is to destroy shaping itself. Quote: —Alorael, who would like to point out that Avernum's Empire managed to maintain absolute power over an entire world for centuries at least without shaping. Being able to make an army instead of conscripting one is nice, but it's not essential. Shouldn't the citizens be happy they don't have to fight and die themselves? There is the whole Avernum defeating them thing which makes them not impossible to overthrow. People can't be that mad at them otherwise they would have revolted. And also, they assinated the tyrant emperor. That kind of takes the invincibility the Shapers have away from the Avernum Empire.

Quote: First off, I was under the impression that, until recently, the shapers had been very successful in keeping the peace. Wars suggests there's been more than one in the past 20 or so years. Well, there has been 2 rebellions that were barely stopped before the war. Quote: Secondly, the above items I quoted would likely have happened whether shaping existed or not. It just would have happened under different circumstances. I don't know if they would be better or worse, or when and how they happened, but they most certainly would happen. Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks. Canister crazy rebels wouldn't happe because there wouldn't be tyranny. Also, there wuld be no shapers to be tyrants. Without shaping to back the tyrants up, it would be hard to stay tyrants for long.

I thought that the Trakos kept anything that cold reproduce alive? Also, Shaping has created: Shaper Monarch Canisters 3 Geneforges Drakons Drayks Tyranny Mad Rebels Gazers Wars Genocide I'm pretty sure that living tools aren't going to make up for that.