Vent

Have you notice there's no user recommendation for Avadon? It means it didn't attract much players having already played it. But also players that bought it didn't get any enthusiast enough to recommend before finish it or close.

Originally Posted By: Uberwiggett yeah I really dislike the idea of having to log into a new service for every different game I have... Because there is any other using a client like Steam? I'm using Gamers Gate, Gog, Mac App Store, Some local digital store you don't know, none of them require a client. For all it's just for installing again the game that you need connect to the site and see your list of game to download and install. And for all appart for installing you don't need connect if the game itself doesn't require it, like for boxes. Steam is definitely intrusive but yeah it can be a very minor trouble overall. Myself I never buy full price game at Steam or any other, the only full price games I buy are boxes. The trouble with boxes is most of them require the CD in, and that's quite ugly. On Mac a game editor porting some games offer the choice, have the CD or register once connected and then no need of CD. Alas not many boxes have that. About running a Steam game not connected, in theory this is possible but in practice a significant number of games have bugs in such mode. It's possible that it is improving.

Well that's not the right thread to continue more about that, and not the right person, it's to young people to feel concerned and I don't consider it my problem, if there's no young no take care of that, no need to care.

Unanimity has something frightening. If I remember well, why there's no Avernum on Steam, not because Jeff didn't want but because Steam refused. Why Avadon is about 6€ on Steam and 20€ on GamersGate, because Steam has a pressure power.

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus ...EA is doing their best of late to end Steam's monopoly. Battlefield 3 will not be going on Steam but will be on Origin, their own digital distribution service... Do you want bet that this won't last much? Sure EA has a huge catalog but EA alone... Anyway it's clear that Origin isn't the right way to do it. The only thing I can see would be an Open Source meta digital gaming desktop. Something encapsulating many digital shops. Not only that could temper a little Steam extreme domination but also that could also offer a real game desktop instead of the crap all offer including Steam one. Technically impossible, perhaps, but when all but Steam will want find a solution, who know. Also at the rate it goes, possibly in 10 years or a bit later Steam will have big problem with USA anti trust laws and possibly problem too with EU anti trust laws if there's any. Originally Posted By: Earth Empires other digital ds's have 1 big problem and its that steam has existed a while and has got big userbase who might not want to change dds or start using 2nd dds. Lol see where it already goes, you can't even imagine consumers using more than one digital shop. I don't know perhaps you are right, myself I use few more, for example last GamersGate sales was interesting with games like: Thief: the Dark Project 5€ Culpa Innata 5.39€ Precursors 8.99€ Twin Sector 2.5€ Red Faction 1.24€ Samurai II: Vengeance 3.5€ Alien Hallway 3.98€ Jamestown: Legend of the Lost Colony 4.48€ Yeah GamersGate is just an ant in comparison with Steam, But that's the point, there's only a limited number of days per year and Steam not only can't cover all. The situation is leading to Steam only and few ant markets beside, not sane. Quote that I'm writing that, but I'm also buying most digital games in Steam.

I recently crash and was unable anymore to boot, didn't lost data but gave up searching solve the problem and finally installed a fresh OS. Keeping Steam games without reinstalling them was awfully easy when compared to any other system including no DRM games that often required I installed again fully. But the monopole Steam situation is becoming more and more a problem. It's just not sane and can only end on crap. The situation is too unbalanced and nothing seems be able to stop that. I like Steam but it's a big threatening on gaming.

For me Avadon and Avernum 5 have a similar general organization, and even Avernum 5 is a bit more linear from a general point of view. But each area of Avernum are quite bigger than one area of Avadon. Avadon has two levels of area to compensate but yes the region of areas usually don't allow explore freely from one area to another without have trigger some story event. I didn't noticed the area transitions in a region was so limited. I feel the mechanism requiring find new path through some NPC dialogs is fine but I can understand that it can be sometimes considered as restrictive. But for me it's like finding a switch or hidden passage, that or find the right NPC, it's just variations of a same general mechanism. Myself I feel some of the area was good to explore, a good merge of freedom to explore, NPC talks, and action. To have a better perspective I need replay it. For me Avernum 1 was very open, a large part of Avernum 2 was very linear and I probably quit just when it started be very open, overall the Avernum 1 to 3 use a multi scale approach matching much better a very open world. But not Avernum 4 to 6. Now I about the story consistency, I'm still not fully convinced. I would tend agree the Averdon failed some points on that point of view. But I consider a trap in RPG to make the main story too much constantly at center. A RPG needs a slower pace than what requires a pure story building. That's why I insist about having a web of links between secondary stories and the main story is the way to do it, instead of building a stronger more present main story.

Originally Posted By: Dantius It's also a form of Skinnerian conditioning- you give a lot of little rewards fast to create the expectation of rewards, then begin slacking them off/increasing the time period/making it harder to earn them. People will then work harder in order to get them, and play the game longer... I do agree it's the first point, make the players play longuer the game. Many achievements are challenges, for example beat the game or a boss without using magic, and such stuff. To have achievements some developers just define targets that a player playing the game will achieve naturally. I doubt a lot that players that take care of achievements are really interested by that type of achievement. It could be good to define some like that but the key point is achievements is challenge, and challenge is a way to increase players game time. And in steam, for sure time spend in a game could be a publicity for friends. Also the longer a player is playing a game, the longer he will speak/write about the game, the longer he will make some publicity for the game. Achievements could also be used for highlighting the game depth, typically when there's different way to do something, by defining an achievement for each way to do some stuff make player realize this depth.

Originally Posted By: *i ...The only difference between the endgame and the rest of the story is you didn't have the freedom to leave.. I felt that part very linear, you are constantly push forward, the exploration is very linear, I don't remember much or even any subquest. Too linear a lot too linear and I feel awful encourage Jeff in that direction, but yeah that's only my feeling. Before that too long final the area are, for me, much less linear, you have to explore and subquests to pick and do. I feel weird you don't see the strong difference. But well could be me that see differences where there is none or few, I wonder.

Originally Posted By: Juan Carlo ... I love RPG games, but my biggest complaint is that the writing in most tends to be pretty awful. So since basically every review of Avadon talked about how great the writing was In my opinion the writing is quite stronger than, for example, in the Eschalon Book series, but in no way you can expect something at level of what can do teams like Bioware or Bethesda at their best moments. Originally Posted By: Juan Carlo ...and how the choices in the game tend to be morally complex and very "grey" (rather than the sort of black and white take on moral complexity that you usually get from your typical Bioware style RPG), I thought I'd give it a try based on that. I think Avadon is well done on that point, including some good highlighting/reminding of past choices when later consequences happen. But it won't be at a level of a game like The Witcher 1, plus it seems that some players don't even quote that aspect of the game, perhaps not enough highlighted. Originally Posted By: Juan Carlo I'm hoping it lives up to the hype expressed in some of the reviews I've read of the game (most of which were positively glowing). Crossing fingers, I hope too, from players/fans the opinions are more shared. But a part of disappointments was coming from expectations, so it's good to play it with a fresh mind, but I hope the hype reviews didn't build a too high expectation.

Quote: ... I disagree. The problem I see is that it is not natural to visit the places in the order I have to visit them. If we do not allow the player to pick the order somewhat, I think the key is to connect the arcs better. Something in the Kva should lead you to Khemeria, perhaps ogre attacks force you to return, there you find a plot point leading you to the Beraza Woods, and so on... It's a point and a possible solution. But that has in mind to reinforce a linear story building and in my opinion going there will be too much. Instead the game needs build better a web of links with the main global plot and put more decisions linked to this main global plot in hand of the player. That's an alternate solution I would prefer a lot. Quote: I'd honestly prefer a shorter game if Jeff gave the player more missions/choices of actual consequence. There's a lot of potential with Avadon, and it almost hurts to see it wasted on pest control. I could be wrong but for me Avadon made a much better job of building choices and consequences than in the Avernum series, there's also often a good highlighting/reminding of past choices when later consequences appear. EDIT2: Companions is a key point of Avadon and in my opinion, if there's some features that worth a game a bit shorter it's that. More developed companions or more companions as much developed, here what I would expect from Avadon 2. EDIT: That lack of multi quote is VERY tedious.

Originally Posted By: *i ... The Avadon title appears to be more of already more of the linear type. ... The point is the final parts where you get hunted are a lot more linear than what was the game before those parts. For me there's a strong difference and I bet most players would agree. In my opinion that's a point Jeff should really take care of. The long final parts where you get hunt are interesting only because of their original implementation, it's rare a hunt is really working and here it does in my opinion. But also that final parts are too much linear. Before that final parts, which starts where the game warn you you need be prepared, there's some general linearity but with much more freedom. Sometimes that parts lost a bit the original focus of the game, a conspiracy, or conspiracies. Originally Posted By: *i You had very little control about where you went and when you did what in this game. The main quests have to be done in order -- no variation allowed. This feature makes it a very different game than the Avernum or even the Geneforge titles, which are more of the open-ended type. It's not pure linear/not linear. The freedom of a globally open world is in my opinion an interesting design but involving too many problems from focus to story building. Not all Avernum was just a global open world but I won't focus on the comparison. So to stick with Avadon, before the long very linear hunt, the world is opened by area, but each area is opening some freedom of exploration and secondary quests, that what's make a huge difference with the very linear final hunt.

Originally Posted By: *i ... My advice for future titles is to keep the same length, string plot arcs together more tightly, and add suspense when the player has to leave one to do another. During this process, the player should clearly see the problems grow throughout the story until the final and most exciting parts occur. For me a weakness of Avadon is that long final part, for sure it's very well done. But it transforms a RPG into a linear thriller. It reinforce too much the story building at the price of the world building. So I'm looking with a very suspicious eye your "string plot arcs together more tightly" I'm worry to reading it as a request for less world building and more story building. On another way, I think the game provides many elements on a more global plot/conspiracy that is building above your head. But I would agree it's not fully efficient... but I'm not sure why. One possibility is that too many of those elements are too obscure and not enough concrete. For example the mysterious man is well too mysterious. Also because of your Hand position you are too much out of the global loop that could be a global investigation on a suspected conspiracy. That was the goal of the base design of the game, but the effect isn't good overall you are too passive for the global plot. My favorite area is certainly the most culprit of a lack of links with the main story, it's where you hunt the weird beast. With a rewriting a quite similar area and plots could have fit a more global plot. When it's about building a world and a plot I always come back to a trilogy scenario from Realmz, The Sword Lands Trilogy and perhaps even more the second in the trilogy but the first is already an interesting world+plot building. In my opinion every RPG designer should play that trilogy and study how it's done from a general point of view. Let's take an example of trick used. At some point you'll make investigations for some Duke and depending of your choices you could just conclude it get the reward despite some suspicious details, and later start suspect the Duke is on wrong side of a huge global conspiracy and manipulated you. Or you could discover him sooner and solve a part of the machination sooner and learn few elements on the global conspiracy. The trick is despite you are solving local troubles you are constantly deep into a global huge conspiracy. During this phase you'll visit a tavern and will see a small group of men with black uniform, you could skip or investigate, take a room for the night, sneak, uncover a murder attempt and make it fail or not, and find some notes revealing there's something huge behind. Or you could skip, learn later someone get murdered who wanted contact you, and find some notes hidden in his room at the tavern. In Avadon, the Ogre part could seem build a bit like that but, it's very thin, too thin, you are mainly a Hand solving trouble, not investigating on some mysterious conspiracy. In the Realmz scenario beside solving local troubles the game constantly put the player in the situation of an investigation of a global conspiracy, the main plot. Also to reinforce that conspiracy global plot, the player is confronted multiple time with manipulations he has a strong chance to unveil himself. This building very well the global plot despite it's along sub stories that seem at first independent. Here another element, that game has also his mysterious man, but there's an abuse of it in Avadon, too often, without real progression. In that game, at second meeting it's up to you to quote him in a tavern through a crowd, and get some more vague information, and at third or fourth meeting he will join the party if you want. Or another example, one companion could join your team and will reveal be a traitor, one more link with the main plot, in fact multiple links because you'll get clues to be suspicious about him. I'd say, and it's probably wrong, but it's like if the writer/designer was first designing independent sub plots to build interesting intermediate plots but wouldn't stop rewrite it until plenty elements get linked with the main story. In fact if you look at it globally, it's clearly artificial, you can't have a wide area with multiple towns and even countries and all your adventures and event linked to a wide global conspiracy. But in practice it's very efficient anyway.

Originally Posted By: Danny the Fool I liked the caves because the setting was unique. Once it was aboveground it started looking more and more like any other fantasy RPG. Myself it's since long I'm dreaming someone buy the license or some rights to make full 3D high graphic RPG with such huge cave environment, weird alien vegetation and bestiary, and ton of strange looking light effect.

Originally Posted By: captain_video It's back in the Steam top 20 (barely) as I post this... I'm curious, how you get the steam top selling list with more than top 20? I was looking at indies top selling on Steam and Avadon is top 5. Not so bad even if for sure it means low numbers anyway, it's still means it sells because that list is quite often updated. I quote it is right above Aztara, a strange but very nice light RPG with a current big sale. EDIT: And in top selling RPG it is above Skyrim and Borderlands, woo woo, I know a guy who will soon buy some holiday villa in some nice sunny island.

Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith I mean, it's currently #13 on the best sellers list. I'm not sure if that's a good indicator of the number of sales, but at least it's selling. Well it was, it is already out of top 20. Something a little sad. Particularly when you compare with Bastion, twice the price and something like 6 hours of gameplay plus probably a kiddish approach, and it is still in top 5. but yeah fancy graphics and nice voice acting. Ok but is there any conclusion to take like young generation are just hypocritical, they complain for deeper gameplay but are just moved by fancy graphics and pretty voice acting? Well there's one very important point, Avadon isn't a fresh new release. Some players could have already decided not be interested and there's no appeal of novelty. I was chatting with one of those young not that young (about 30), he was very curious about a game in Steam he couldn't buy in his country and that I had buy few days before. When he heard the game wasn't a new release but one released in May his interest drop down close to zero. I'd say it's the elitist syndrome, younger often fail into such erroneous approach. A new stuff increase interest because there's a chance to be among those that have recognize a gem and among the first fans. When it's two month old, it's over, the game didn't get fame so is a crap. Second point I'm surprised Steam lead you into releasing Avadon at a such low price. I feel it's not a good idea. It's sales that are working on Steam, mainly 50% sales and if possible 66% and even 75% sales. So a release at 15$ or 19$ was a good idea and later make a 50% sale or possible a higher sale. Having a such low tag price put in players mind the game is a very minor game. 15$ to 19$ was a better approach with multiplying sales later. That's a little cynical but that's how it is working particularly for a game which isn't a new fresh release. Ask most players using a lot Steam it's not cheap game they buy, it's sales at cheap price and 75% sales tend be irresistible. EDIT: In fact even better is release the game at a descent tag price like 15$ to 19$ but make a strong sale for first fans, like 33% or even 50% cheaper during first week.

I developed the second and third tree of my shaman, and with a high dex. I put 2 specialization points in second tree and one in third, all in second would probably have been better. With that approach, the Shaman has a high dex all along the game, the focus on center tree give her protections and health bonus, and the shaman can use fairly good protection items. This give her a fair long range attack, but not good because she has no skill to increase damages, only various items and dex. But this development gives her strong healing abilities, and very strong summon, and strong Thorns on all allies. I don't remember when she get the Drake summon but it's quite before the end. With that approach the Drake summon cast its AOE attack every three rounds, and every two rounds in last parts of the game if I remember well, and starts with haste, last a long time before disappear. And can be summoned again if it doesn't die before spawn end time. Add the Drake summon damages, plus damages coming from Thorns on all allies, plus fair long range damages and you get something close to the best damage rate. And a rather resistant character. It's a strange build but with good points.

Originally Posted By: Master1 The nice thing about the separate buildings is that a large building doesn't have to be large in the surrounding zone. You can shift the scale inside of the building to provide more overall space in a given location. It's exactly for this reason I like much more this approach used in Avadon. It allows a bit more abstraction, not too small buildings once in, nor too big when wandering in a town. For me it's a two scale approach, outdoor and town vs buildings and dungeons. The main negative point is to not allowing well merging of views from in and out, like see outside through a window. Avadon solve the problem by implementing some building mixing building elements and outdoor elements, for example the two big castles. My favorite multi scale approach would be 4 scales: Wide outdoor with a very far scale, that scale allows setup and symbolize well very vast region and even continent. Often you could use horses to travel those area. Large undergrounds with a scale a bit closer than outdoor. This one allows setup very large underground without to make feel it's same gigantic size than wide outdoor area. Outdoor zoom in scale used for zooming on a special outdoor area or for a town, or even for an underground area large enough to includes buildings. Close up scale, from inside buildings and detailed dungeons. Clearly the 3rd and 4th scales could use the same graphic scales, zone change is enough to manage the scale change. Alas the wide outdoor area requires a lot of additional design, from graphics to design details. That's probably one of the reason of its gradual disappearing. But for modern games it's also a too abstract scale, it disable using highly detailed graphics to impress players. For the intermediate large underground scale if I remember well Avernum using this scale just used the story background of very large caverns, so even large outdoor area are also large underground caverns, this merging the first and second scales. A concurrent game quite many years ago did used the 4 scales approach with a 5th scale for the fights. This 5th scale for the fights was used for encounters in wide outdoor, but also in buildings or undergrounds. That was a necessity to allow party of 6 and more, no limit, some scenario would lead you into party of more than 10. This approach is certainly a bit abstract but it has also many positive points and big party is a good point. It's certainly the only system used in RPG where I had some real war battles with like up to 100 units in a fight, lol.

So I finished it or more exactly I decided I have finish it. Many great parts, the companions was a good plus. But I'm a bit sad the game ends with such a boring fight. It is a sort of waste of my pleasure and will throw a shadow on my remembering of the game. Yes I'll never finished it, nobody in my life (I'm older than Jeff) ever forced me do such a boring thing, it won't start now, even less for a leisure time. Ha well it's a short part for the game size but I'll still never see the real end, but in all cases I'll never surrender a Tyrant, I mean Redbeard! Ha well not the first nor the last game I won't finish. EDIT: To be clear about that, I found the switches and that I should keep golems number low. The worse was to constantly scroll to a position to another, but the point is it's just tedious and a lot too long (I got an estimate by playing it about 1 hour, lol can't believed I had this patience! I'd say it's a bit strange from a design decision point of view, I wonder why waste somehow a game by such ending, an end of a game is a quite important part.

Originally Posted By: The Mystic Originally Posted By: Vent Avernum 1 with companions or mostly the same Avernum with just the new engine? If it's like when Exile was rewritten into Avernum, it'll be basically the same game with a new engine, plus a new dungeon or two to explore. Yes but, if I remember well the main technical was kept, ie the multi scale approach. With the new engine I don't see how this could be mimic. Multi scale is missing in modern games, but I don't know there's perhaps a reason, cost or sells for example. That said the Baldur's Gate approach is my second favorite and it's the one used in Avadon.

What no companions in Avernum rewrite/remake? Ha I'll never buy them! That is a joke, but well companions in Avernum 1 would be dreamy. I'm only close to end but my decision is taken since long, Redbeard is already dead, well I hope. Why? Because he is mad, not enough morality to much obsession of fake efficiency. Order through terror is an old way but I can't believe in it. There's missing a bit of justice and there's too many people above any laws, starting with Redbeard.

Keep cool I'm not an old school fanatic. About tactics and fights difficulty you already know it's the hard way, always some to find and complain about something too difficult and some other too easy. Nothing new under the sun about that so no need be surprised, lol. But I do think most often during a large part of the game, Normal is too easy, too many players will just use the default, will get something too easy and won't think rise up the difficulty and will find the game too easy and will complain. I use this opportunity to quote that at least someone prefer the way you did it in general (I don't mean just fights) with Avadon, for me your best game (I'm close to end) or on par with Avernum 1. And now any future game you'll make without companions know that I'll whine. I also enjoyed the multiple technicals used, from JRPG elements to companions, sneaking parts, one of the rare flee working rather well in RPG, and many more. I jungled a bit too much with difficulty in Avadon but yes at least I always had this possibility. I think it's better through more resources used, something more difficult when it's blocked parts like this one. But some blocked parts is great so. For the fight quoted, I tried a last time still at hard, following some advices in the thread. I tried first run west to setup a barrier, but failed, and instead got the leader on one side isolated and other on another side. With one earthquake provided with an item giving the skill to my Shaman I push further the separation and broke for good the link, Shima get the leader busy during the whole fight. Then used few summons, some scrolls for healing push back the mage with help of a Shaman summon, and got them all then the leader. In end quite good I appreciate this one. About tactics, I don't complain, good value, and Turn Based plus party highlight it well, even if party of three restrains a bit. But even if I'm sure you know, you could develop more possibilities like barriers, missile only barriers, bean effects, bounce effects, stances like defensive and offensive, party with a little more members, small jumps usable more often than teleport, sneaking during fight (allowing move without to be blocked and attacked), attraction effects on enemies, and so on. But party of five would most probably help a lot to offer even more possibilities to players. To close this long post, thanks, Avadon is great, few flaws but many strong parts and a great game.

Lol I didn't even noticed it. I'm using a big monitor and not a high resolution so characters are big, probably why I didn't noticed.

Avernum 1 with companions or mostly the same Avernum with just the new engine? For me one great point in Avernum 1 is to have multiple scale of exploration and exploit it well. It's not the approach of the new engine so I wonder what the remake could be.

Because it's not that easy to build and keep on such wall. And this part of the game had some tough fights where it's more difficult. In this one you start in a wide open area. In some previous some oponents use rather often knockback destroying defensive walls and allowing some monsters reach Nathalie, this in more than one fight. In another but that was probably right before this part of the game, there's some tough oponents using teleporting. And another one sometimes you go a bit closer to have Nathalie cast something and then multiple oponents reply from long range and you get a dead Nathalie. By doing from far the highest damages with area spells and even doing the single target highest damages, Nathalie attract lot more enemies and defense wall isn't always easy to setup and keep, and Nathalie tend be weak but I could change her equipment, but not yet in this part of the game.