Rent-an-Ihrno

I've played non-magic parties a couple of times, and I found them rather fun. It just takes time until you're strong enough to run up to the enemy spellcasters and kill them while your other characters occupy your other foes; for this, no spell, potion or crystal is needed. Just experience. Before you get to that point, trust in endurance and defense, as well as Elite Warrior and Fast on Feet. Oh, and bows for everyone.

From Schrodinger's A2 FAQ: Quote: # ANATOMY: This is an expensive skill. It's worth it though. Almost all the enemies in Avernum are humanoid, meaning you'll always get more damage. It does around about 1 point of damage per skill point invested, but only against humanoids. It affects both melee and missile, but only seems to add .5 points of damage per skill point with missiles. It also affects first aid, if you use it. Buy it when you can or remember. When you get a big batch of cash, go ahead and use it on this. When someone gets a 5 in this skill, you may want to get that mind crystal you found in Chapter 1 and get 3 more free points.

That last part is definately a useful thing to do. Maybe not to that extent (there are, after all, websites which list trainer locations etc.), but Avernum is far too vast to complete without having a plan. Missing out on things is almost inevitable. Other than that, however, I must repeat myself: chill, dude! That sort of stuff gets back to you, trust me. You don't get any gold from selling items worth 20 coins, storing things is utterly useless, and loose rocks are there for a reason! Don't drive yourself nuts, you're just conditioning yourself. As for wall-bumping: I had that problem too, until I discovered a much less annoying and more effective obsession - going crazy with Far Sight. Give it a try, it changed my life.

At last! Someone who listens to me! What a glorious day for the Anti-Rentar-Movement!

What you describe is a very common phenomenon, especially with SpidWeb games. I also save before I talk to someone (so I'm able to check all the dialogue options and then go with the best one), before I attack someone/something, etc. However, every party I create only gets 1 slot, and that's it. Saving in different slots really seems a little odd to me, and why the heck do you do that whenever you enter a town? What do you do towards the end of A1 or A2, when you have to run from one end of Avernum to the other, constantly passing through Almaria etc.? Poor hard drive! You should join the club of those who collect skulls and trash, maybe you'll feel less alone with them.

The way Scab reacts to it, I think the murders might be there to make you think about whether the Scimitar is responsible for them.

There are just two sets of barriers in Agate Tower. One is the fire barriers on the lower level, which you have to walk through just like Excalibur has already said. The only other barrier is found in the SW of the upper level, not the SE. If it's that barrier you're talkingg about, Dragonlorddragon, then know that you need a piercing crystal or Dispel Barrier lvl 2 to dispel it, and you only get some missiles for it. If that didn't help, check following site. It really leaves no open questions. http://rachea3.tripod.com/avernum3/id23.html

People, this is not about fighting tactics. It's about choosing when to enter combat mode yourself, instead of being forced into it every couple of seconds. Though it might not sound like it, this freedom makes combat mode far less annoying since you don't have to switch it on and off as much and you don't constantly get stopped in your tracks. If anything, fighting outside combat mode is convenient vs. enemies that are not to be taken too seriously, especially in 1 tile broad corridors. It doesn't give you any advantages concerning speed of "stealth".

@Vrek: Most things you bring up have already been discussed countless times, and will most probably never be changed back. However, I've never come up with the idea of simply making combat optional again the way it was in A1-3... why the heck didn't I? Omg, It's so obvious. That really bugged me in A4+5 - or, more fittingly, i MEGALOATHED it. How about that, Jeff? Huh? Huh?? Oh, come on, give us a treat will ya!

Quote: Spell line specializations and more spells. I'm talking about stuff like a Fire Mage, or an Ice Mage. As Hobson mentioned, a Summoner Mage. Each specialization limits your use of other magic, but unlocks unique spells specific to your choice. Of course you would need a lot of new spells for this, but it would make spell casters much more unique, instead of just...buy all the best spells and keep upgrading them. The "specialization" thing is actually one of the things I like most about the Geneforge series. Though the exact adaptation of Geneforge's skill system may not be ideal, the direction would be a great improvement for Avernum IMO. Plus, a large part of the community has plead for a wider Exile-style range of spells in Avernum ever since, and this new potential system could make it possible for a lot of spells to be highly differentiated and yet useful (unlike many Exile spells). Quote: No more dilemmas like Gladwell's geas (and his quests after geases) or stealing some Artifact from its righteous owner to some1 who wants it for some purpose (no idea what for Gladwell wants all that stuff but I guess he wants to rule the world like other lunatics). Are you kidding? What you talk about is the best novelty Avernum 4 and 5 brought with them! To be honest, it's the only thing that kept me going through the otherwise disappointingly linear plot and gameplay of A5. If A6 was to combine the strong plot and feeling of A2 with A5's complexity, I'd be dancing in circles! Edit: Corrected some mistakes. English can be so exhausting.

"Alien" does not only refer to extra-terrestrians, but to all things unknown to you. (Latin "alienus, -a, -um": strange, unknown)

What does it say?

You sound like a pastafari, my friend. Drink some chamomile tea.

However the case, the economies in Avernum are capitalist. Since there are people possessing the social means of production and pay others to work for them, they make their profit by paying these people less than their labor is actually worth and by selling their goods for a higher price than they are actually worth, there can be no talk of whether we're talking of capitalism or something else. There is neither slavery nor a feudalism-like land-owning system to be found in Avernum. (Please spare me from single contra-examples) Anyway, my comment had the sole purpose of determining what the Empire's most pressing interests in Avernum are. I find Thuryl's suggestion interesting too, though. Maybe the Vahnatai tribes would disagree upon whether Avernum and should be driven back to the surface more or less peacefully or by simply annihilating it's population.

Capitalism evolved under late feudalism, and money is anything you can use to trade for everything else. Coins or stones or whatever. The fundamental mechanics of capitalism definately apply for the economies of Avernum and the Empire (not sure about how the Vahnatai organise things when they're on their own). So the problem for the Empire is not related to resources, will say the resources on the surface can't have become too expensive to use in production - the laborers have. Or at least, they will at a certain point. I don't think the Empire would be interested in annexing the whole underworld in a crusade. They would only conquer (if they were forced to declare war) whatever they're capable of maintaining. In A5, it seems clear that they're still decades away from an efficient exploitation of the regions of Avernum they're already evolved in. Avernum isn't interested in conquering anyone, they're just pissed off because everybody attacks them all the time and have become a little paranoid. The Vahnatai are definately paranoid, and want their land back. Still, not all of them are evil geniuses. Seeing this situation, I'd say that the Vahnatai would try to conjure a conflict between the Empire and Avernum, and then a kind of 3-front-war would arise. Minor fractions in the Empire/Avernum communtiy could also trigger something similar. Maybe that would be a good setting. Everybody is nervous about the possibly coming war(s), and the Empire-Avernum-Vahnatai relations are extremely tense and complicated. And YOU have to decide in what direction you want to kick the rock. (I'm never sure about how to translate German sayings) *COUGHCOUGH* playable vahnatai pcs *COUGH*

Speaking of Ouroboros - if the Empire was to subject Avernum again, I don't think they would do it in the same fashion as before. In RL, a capitalist economy needs people to work and people to buy their products. Because the companies in a capitalist society compete with each other, they must lower their prices so people buy their products rather than others', which means that they have to lower their production costs, ergo lower the wages of their workers or make their workers more effective. If that is done, these workers who are either unemployed or earn less money can't buy as many products anymore, causing a problem for the companies, who must find a way to enlarge their profit again. You see my point. Alright, I don't want to start an economical, political or philosophical discussion here - I just wanted to illustrate my thought: The Empire would break down if it would stay the way it is. Like any capitalist economy, it must expand. Expand where? Into Avernum. Now I'd really don't like any RL-class war-feeling of that kind in A6, but I think that would be the logical point to start our thoughts about it's plot. If the Empire took hold of Avernum in an economic way - say through the what's-it-called-trading-company, how would the Avernites react? There would definately be some (rich) people who would ally with the Empire, or think that they would bring them prosperity. And then, there would be some who want to avoid the Empire's snare. Maybe this majority(?) of the Avernites would look to the Vahnatai? Blah. Oh, I don't know. Actually, I'd just like to break some demon's face like in A1. Maybe Grah-Hoth had a daddy?

Alright fellas, I think that's enough. The discussion was over already, anyway. Please return to the topic. Plot and stuff, you know.

I meant Avernum as a game. Ermarian didn't seem appropriate as that term doesn't include the caves. ...or does it?

Exactly. I was thinking about the role of the Sliths and Nephils all game long - I don't think Jeff would've neglected them so much in A5 if he hadn't had something in mind for them in A6. And surely, after humanity has settled their conflict, the other peoples want to decide their own fates as well. And it doesn't look like the Vahnatai are that satisfied either. But what could trigger the next events? One shouldn't forget that most nations have a mixed population by now - a secret plan of some sort seems more likely to me than an official invasion (for starters). And I think the Vahnatai would make the first move. After all, they're the ones losing their lands. *cough* playable vahnatai pcs *cough* edit: Btw, I'd love to see Mutant Undead Hawthorne. I actually thought the same thing His right hand could be Unleashed Pestulant Limoncelli.

I agree with you on two points, Clavicle: character graphics should be enhanced, and there should be more of them, and there should be more spellls. Attack spells could be a little more interesting, and too many of them inflict fire-damage. I guess the second row of quick slots-thingy could work out, so why not. I don't use them anyway, though, so perhaps I can't really tell. Same thing with the dodging/hitting chances showing up on the char screen: I wouldn't care, and I'm not sure if it's possible, as those chances stand in relation to your enemies. Most of your other suggestions seem very hard to implement. Plus, I don't like the idea of getting better with a weapon type by using it for a long time. You'd be stuck with it, and it contradicts the logic of the skill-system. I think Jeff has already made the consequences your actions and things you say very realistic. Completely changing everything because of one answer you give wouldn't be fun, IMO. That aspect is already done perfectly in A5. Concerning the plot: Yes, it definately should be much, muuch bigger. And I'd love to see more endings than two, as in A5. Why are there 3 nations in Avernum, anyway? I'm sceptical about the completely new-all powerful common foe, though. The end of the series should close the circle, but according to how it started. A war between the nations, for example. A little A2-feeling

You're right about what rifles can do to you, but arrows are still worse in some ways. It's hard to explain in English, and really not all that relevant. I think our discussion has ended up in a corner a little -- any other suggestions? Plot-wise, for example?

You all have very good points there. Letting bows and thrown javelins cost less ...uh... damn, what was the word? Movement point... thingies? You know. Also doesn't sound so bad to me. But I still think the damage should simply be greatly increased (though not to a higher value than pole weapons). Plus, they should have an ability like stunning the target or something like that, to slow the approach of the enemy or give him a disadvantage for the battle. As Naldiin already pointed out, the shock of being struck by an arrow is not to be underestimated. It's actually bigger than the one produced by a rifle. One thing we should remember is that the parties we play are not armies. A single archer has a different significance than the ones standing in rows at the edge of a battlefield or on walls, shooting as far as they can into the faceless mass which is their foe. Our archers can only be highly skilled assassins, which have to use their advantage of delivering high non-magic damage to single targets at a distance in a strategically effective way. It doesn't matter that you can fire so and so many rounds at someone in RL.

I don't mean bows and thrown weapons should have a chance for instant kills; I meant they should deliver so much damage to a single target regular grunts fall before them in a single hit. Ingame that wouldn't be so great an advantage as it might sound, since you can only hit 1 target a round, unlike magic. Plus, heavy armor could have extra defense vs. piercing attacks or whatever it's called. I'm trained in both archery and sword fighting in RL, and very familiar with their history and physics. You're absolutely right about what you say, SoT, and the practical difference is actually tremendous. Many wars have been won or lost because of what armor the participating armies used and how highly their weapons were evolved. See the Spanish conquistadores for examples, whom the Aztecs couldn't withstand although they had an army of 1 MILLION men, or the English longbows which annihilated the heavily armored French knights during the Hundred Years' War, etc. edit: Major enemies (say Dorikas or Dirty Dan ) could be able to deflect any arrows or thrown weapons, because of the massive shield their wielding. Oh oh, and then PCs could have a Battle Discipline that distracts him/her, like Leg Sweep or something, so the archer can hit him/her off guard! I'd really like to see a playable non-magic party in A6...

Men are able to fight well with swords not only in movies. A good fighter is able to take care of multiple enemies at once, and this is not restricted only to swords. Still, it usually takes longer to kill someone with a blade than it does with an arrow because the arrow pierces armor the blade does not. I doubt that varying the damage dealt according to distance and whether the target is wielding a shield or not and according to the fighting skill-differences between the combattants is so easy to implement, so my suggestion is still the same. Archers should be able to kill regular foes with a single shot and somehow curse major ones, while melee fighters should be much more useful in cuddles, by better defense and new battle disciplines. And I would strongly disapprove of a further weakening of Haste. I'm already disappointed it doesn't haste the entire party anymore.

How about this: There are skills (standard, trainable ones as well as unique ones found somewhere... btw, wouldn't the Mad Monk Monastery be the ideal place to acquire a unique Battle Discipline in?) which enable a character to be ass-kicking in a specific way. Think - archery, in real life, is ideal for killing single enemies, while swords are more effective vs. many foes. Why can't bows and javelins deal huge amounts of damage, maybe be poisoned, strike vital points to "curse" the target in a specific way, etc., while melee weapon-wielders may use an ability to hit multiple targets, and so on. I don't think one has to decide between weak character builds and overly powerful builds. There should be enough possibilities to specialize your characters in what way you see fit according to your party composition.