alhoon

I am pretty sure those islands were not inhabited, or were inhabited by a few fishermen. They are crap even after centuries of Shaper control.

I will see how the new finale plays out, but an eternal stalemate (even if it is that) is not victory.

And on top of that, their ideology is the most benign. In fact, they are too good to win a war against the Shapers. The Awakened want justice, peace and freedom. Nothing more.

We hear about the old cultures here and there in the games, and there are different cultures that play a significant role in GF5.

The awakened are not Slavers. Tuldaric's target-practice creations are rogues they have captured, and those are unintelligent beings. You don't see Taker Serviles used as target practice. Furthermore some soldiers being not-exactly-brave doesn't paint the faction as non-good. The Awakened morals are good morals. How closely the individual Awakened follows them is up to the person. The Shaper doctrine is oppressive and evil. The Taker doctrine espouses intellectual genocide (and for a good reason...) and no-holds-barred fight (again, for understandable reasons). The Barzhites... well, they don't even pretend to not be evil, they just think they should be allowed to be evil and powerhungry and the Shaper Law is too tame for them. The Awakened assassinating enemy leaders and dangerous radicals is absolutely justified; those three Drakons Drayks leading the ideologically closer party, are in open war with the Awakened, sending monsters to kill them and pests to ruin their lands. This is killing the leadership of the enemy army to end the war. The Takers are not attacking the Servants in full force. Noooope, they save their vengeance and the majority of their energy to fight the Awakened. It is no surprise that the Awakened want the leaders dead in a (predictably naive) assumption that this may lead to the Takers humbled, returning back to the Fold. No, the Awakened killing the leaders of the enemy faction that targets them is the Awakened attempt to give a second chance to the Takers, before they will have to crush them with the Barrier of the Winds. It is what is required to extend a bloodied olive branch to the Takers, hoping they will take it (or some of them will take it) before the Awakened press the "I win" button. It is mercy towards the mid-rank and rank-and-file Taker Servile of "we can kill your leaders and we can defeat the Shapers. Join us before it is too late".

I think the Barzhites talked about their Utopia in O-GF2 too. And they walk the walk on that. It was not Lying Zackary the Deceiver that made the valley lush. And for all my love for Awakened, without the Barzhites, they don't do well as evident when you go out of Medhab in that bridge and you are told the fields are weak, or when you go closer to the Taker lands and you are told the valley is not well transformed there. He was still an arrogant butthole in GF1-M, as far as I recall. Greta is limited in her role as leader because she is moderate; Litalia leads the human faction of the Rebellion in GF4 and in GF5, the humans are mostly sidelined. Ghaldring appears rational but he tries to bring the Drakon Lifecrafter Empire after the fall of the Shaper Empire. Well, that's not irrational, but it is backstabbing all of us except his buddies. The Takers/Rebels seem to include at least a Drakon in each game that wants you to kill the competition inside their own faction.

The Awakened are the good guys. But morals don't often win wars. In a few cases, yes. Not often. As for the Takers, BEFORE you are given a chance to be tolerated, they are fighting you and they are fighting those nice people you met that want peace. They are presented as dangerous radicals that would use every trick at their disposal to win. Which is exactly what they are, BTW. The fact that for them it is a fight for the right to exist, not the right to be free, is not something that comes up until after you have been attacked a bunch of times by Takers.

Yes. I have seen all those too. Which is why I said I would need 14 essence mastery and end-level to get 4x4 (four tier four) creations, and even then, the non-Primary ones would be far more expensive (bought levels) and still way below the level I need. And if I invest that heavily in essence mastery, my primary Shaping class will take a severe hit. I am all about playing suboptimal if it is fun, but buying up to 11 essence mastery by the end game is going to seriously gimp my character. It is quite clear you cannot have all the top-tiers. Even getting Rotdhizons, requires battle shaping 5. Battle Shaping 5 requires me to buy 2 more battle shaping. Gazers require me to buy magic shaping 2 (and then wear my magic armor for 3, shape and ditch the armor). And if I do that, the Gazer would be easily 10 levels below the Drakons. At that point, I would be much better off with another drayk. I bought Vlish from Carnelian and the ones I can make, even if I buy every level I can for them, are much weaker than my Fyora. Look, the TL;DR version is: dreaming of the 4x4 is good... as a dream. I have managed it in the past. Now, it is a serious handicap, not just suboptimal, like the challenges people like, like playing solo or pacifist. It requires serious investment of my finite amount of skill points for something very suboptimal. Even if you get the 4x4, the huge level disparity would make your non-primaries as useful as tier 3 of your main path.

Sounds good, I will look it up.

Indeed, but as I said, the previous time they were convincing that my place was with the Awakened... XD Anyway, some Takers are moderate Takers. But the greatest danger to a fanatic is not the enemy, it is the moderates. The moderates are eaten up first in such disputes. Also, the moderates in a civil war are the ones that least expect to be brutally attacked. From what I have seen, when there is a civil war or ideological war between fanatics A and B, with AB moderates somewhere in between, the A will see AB and B as enemies while the B will see AB and A as enemies. For A, AB are 90% guilty. For B AB are also 90% guilty. And for many of those, the AB are traitors not just enemies. For the rest... AB are often easier targets! Either because AB have to defend against both sides or because AB have some faith in A and B and the peaceful solution or a combination of both. I.e. AB are ideologically weaker so the enemies easier to take out.

And I cheat-saw Rotdhizons and they are absolute beasts in battle. I mean, they can get a passive 30% resistance + an active 40% resistance.... that is nuts. That works out as 52% resistance to all, effectively doubling their already high hp. Look, let's be honest here: There are no bad paths. All tier 4s are awesome. Sure, sure, Battle Alphas are disappointing compared to Ghaalks and Drayks, but I think they have that leap, which makes them not-useless and their damage scales with level. Now, the Clawbugs (not the iron ones) were a real disappointment.

Thank you, Twini, for reminding me why I strongly dislike the Shapers to start with. And now, I also feel guilty for using pyroroamers in GF1-M. They were... convenient. Exactly as Twini says. They were to be made in suffering and swiftly die because the Sholai held a bridge and it was convenient to send pyroroamers. I was not aware they were in pain, to be honest. I thought they were not. But I knew very well that I was Shaping them, giving them life, only for the few minutes they needed to rush to the bridge and suicide-bomb the turrets. To my defense, I don't buy Overload for my Creations. Well, if I go back to Rots I will, cause I don't care about Rots. If the Shapers were killing Rots I would find it questionable bit not a reason to go to war. I don't know why. At the time, in the Awakened lands, watching what the Awakened have suffered and what they are willing to accept from the Shapers, I am of half-a-mind to jump ship and join the Takers. Back in GF2, what stopped me from joining the Takers was, of course, the Takers. I need to clear my mind and steel my Awakened conviction. I need to find Takers that will insult me and talk of genocide and work against completely innocent Serviles of the Awakened for their lack of "ideological purity." Frankly, GF2 is "The best argument against a faction is talking to members of that faction and seeing their lands." After the shock of Tuldaric's madness and callousness, after the pacificist naivety of Pinner when my blood boils seeking Shaper heads... I need to find Takers to remind me why I prefer the Awakened.

I did some rough calculations. No, this is not for an optimized run, but for what I think I would like most. In order to have have: 2 well built Drakons (all abilities+1 level) I would need 118 essence. 1 well built Drayk (4 abilities+3 levels) I would need 38 essence 1 Well built Ur-Drakon (4 abilities) I would need 66 essence 1 Rotdhizon/Gazer (all abilities+2/4 levels to account for lacking Battle/Magic shaping) I would need 75/70 essence. I would need about 297 Essence. Leaving a little essence for spells and healing, that's 310 essence. Considering I am not a completionist, I will probably be end-game at level 18-19. To have that dream team by level 18, I would need 14 essence mastery for 304 essence. Assuming I grab three of those free Essence Mastery things, I would need to buy up essence mastery up to 11. I realize this will kinda hamper my creations as essence mastery is anything but cheap. But it is something I need to consider. Chances are, I will never have that dream team...

I didn't sell any mandrake or residue. But I plan to charge my Felix on the guy that killed Shanti as soon as possible. And I have no residue nor I was planning to fight the Infernals.

The way I see his resistances, it is 90% armor, 86% on energy, fire, etc. and immunity to mind (or stun, not sure).

... Crap.

Does that mean I need materials? Or just get them there?

Wait, the infernal, on top of 800 hp with 85% resistance also has minions?! Also, I play a Shaper. My creations do the work. I sloowly raise my blessing damage. But at level 9 that I am ... even with my Drakon, I doubt I could do much to that guy.

Solo guardian without using magic? Or using healing at least and a bit of blessing magic?

What you say about the Serviles being complex is correct. But the Barzhites don't care much about those things and the Shapers need a breed of loyal serviles to infiltrate the Rebellion without betraying them. So... Lying Zackary the Deceiver explicitly told me, in this game, that this is impossible, that even taking control back of a creation that went rogue is very hard and thus, any creation that goes rogue for even a round, should be killed. It was less than two zones later that I took control of a creation born rogue. After someone pointed here that this happens in this game. I believed Zackary in that, at least. And he was lying. He was not wrong, mind you. He was lying. I have not yet screwed the Barzhites by messing with their very magical ways to control their creations - through suffering. But it is magical. On the other hand, we constantly find whips and chains that are used to beat creations to keep them in control before they go mad. And in Mutagen I found a Fyora that was beaten by some Serviles to stop being rogue. The text was clear the Fyora was rogue but very docile because of all the abuse. I.e. domesticated rogues are still rogues! Slarty I think has also pointed to the text of the Drayk: Drayks can pretend to be under control while they are rogue. Wyx explains that he ... kinda controls himself with his crystals. And then, we have the abandoned Thahd. A thahd that is not rogue but you "steal" from another Shaper because you have awesome leadership and it is close to breaking out of control. What I surmise from that (although we perhaps should move that to a different thread): 1. A rogue is not under Shaper control. But it can be domesticated. 1a. I don't know what is the deal with "rogue but domesticated" Serviles! They very clearly exist, but as long as they follow the orders of Shapers, the Shapers consider them non-rogue. Also, Serviles are exceptionally easy to take control of. From all the creations you brow-beat in the games, I think Serviles are the ones you do it to, the most. Even rogue ones. However, rogue and domesticated Fyoras or Thahds or alphas are still treated as rogues. Honestly, you could say that the GF1 Obeyers are "Domesticated rogue serviles". Well... they were purged but I don't think that is always the case with serviles that follow orders, even if they are technically rogues. For example the Servile that the farmer near the marshes has you look for, the one hiding in the cave. That servile is rogue. But you could send him back. 1b. Most of the Ornks we see are probably rogue. I bet you that. 2. A weak rogue can also be brought back in control. The Drakon you mention was a very special case and even in that case, it had to be weakened. Unless I remember wrong. 3. Control is magical, it is a supernatural ability of the Shapers. And of some strange soothing pylons in GF3-5 and some horrific torture devices the Barzhites use. 4. Control is also non-magical. Beatings, soothing commands, good food, not being near rogues also affect the control. 5. Control is different things. Sometimes, you can kinda control a creation to die even if you cannot control it. Other times you can "confuse" a creation (I think that is what you do to that Drakon you mention). And sometimes, often, you pacify a creation.

Yeap. While avoiding total collapse and eradication. And she is attacked for her entire life over it. Key word: Had. Like Tuldaric, those ideals are not convictions anymore. And Barzhal himself aside, the Barzhites are self-serving, powerhungry scumbags to begin with. Even the ones not yet on the cannister gravy train. The short answers, at least in my opinion are: - Shaper Rule continues as in GF4 and GF5 on the safe places. You paint the other guys as dangerous lunatics that abandoned wisdom and long held ideals. And you continue to have ornks on the pasture and serviles working the fields along with Common. - Yes, you make the Serviles dumber and more inherently loyal, as the Servile dude that you meet in Alwan's camp outside of Northforge in GF4. They do that since a few years before GF4, so easily 10 years before the end of the Great Rebellion. - The people of Sucia nation don't seem to have a problem with that, not more than usual at least. They are, after all, more about talk than walking the walk. Saying "oh, those serviles don't want to be free, so we won't liberate them" is valid. The "and they were MADE that way" is a nice excuse to NOT risk your hide on the other side. Shapers have no problem making new Serviles, they are Creations after all. Carnelian in GF2 says the Serviles make new Serviles - talking for the Awakened in that particular case. The Shaper-side would make Serviles like they do after Taygen kills everything or like the ones Barzhal spams. (those war-bred serviles in O-GF2; I haven't been in his areas in GF2-I) The Sucia side would also have to Shape serviles. They are not against making creations, they are against enslaving them.

A moderate Awakened way: Shaper Astoria. A moderate Barzhite way: Rawal (I will not call someone that builds a Geneforge as 'Shaper', same as I don't call Litalia or the Monarch as Shapers. Tuldaric, I do consider Shaper, even if mad. But that's about the border. I am on the fence on Taygen as eradicating all Creations is also too far). And honestly, who wouldn't see Rawal aligning with the Sholai for $$$ ?

Depends on the ability you change and how you approach it, I think. The base template is imported everywhere. Many of the stats then change, but I am not sure all change. I found that out the hard way, when I changed in GF2-I the color of my Shaper's robe to blue and then a bunch of creatures were blue skinned. I was talking to a blue-skinned Shanti.

If you do that, then a lot of people's / creations stats will change as well. Also, itemschars script is very often overwritten by updates to the game.

😑 We Takers Taker-sympathizing Awakened / Rebels disagree with you. It is clear your ideological impurity is a threat to the Rebellion and you must be eaten. It is Drakon Law the right thing to do. You should not question the Wisdom of the Lifecrafters. The Drakon Lifecrafters that is. You are free to question the wisdom of the Common human lifecrafters. No, I don't see any similarity at all. (I am sarcastic) That said, the key difference is that the Takers do not treat the Serviles and Creations as harshly as the Shapers nor they Bar creations. They bar ideologies but that is not the same. The Takers are willing to accept Shapers that change sides. Even the Drakon leadership. The Shapers would never accept a Drakon that changed sides.