alhoon

I would suggest making a save HERE to revisit later. Even for your own enjoyment if not for us.

I haven't watched an episode in like a month. I can't be considered "consistent" viewer. But thank you anyway.

And yes, I plan to keep watching them. I kinda try to avoid this thread as I'm waaay behind in episodes and I'm afraid of spoilers on what will happen. I know what happens in the game, I don't know what you do in the situation. So, I'll take the opportunity to politely ask those ahead of me to avoid too spoily things.

Yes, I know who XXX is but I don't know (nor I want to know before hand) Blxz's opinion on him. Of course, if XXX is a shaper, Blxz will be sympathetic but there are some really horrid examples.

Well, the book on how to make Canisters survived for the Shapers. And I doubt the Drakons agreed to stop making canisters. So both sides know how to make canister and know that geneforges are possible. It's totally possible 150 years after the endings, a Drakon\Shaper re-discovered how to make a geneforge.

That's more or less what I've been saying... Shapers are really bad at controlling shaping. Look at ... several of them in the later games I've played.

Xuerebx: Yes, it was a spoilerific thread! You did well to not delve further.

I detailed the reasons why I think they do twice as bad as the rebels themselves.

May I ask why you think they don't go further than the Rebels?

Ah, okay. Still, keep in mind that cooler heads do not prevail if the rebels win in G3...

A game I haven't finished...

I am tempted to ask whether you mean what I know, that the rebellion starts in earnest or if good people that weren't fast enough to accept the rule of people placing spawners next to their houses were butchered.

I will NOT ask though, cause I prefer to find out myself... So don't answer.

I would like to remind everyone here that there's a reason I put so many spoiler warnings in my post. There are two people in this thread that don't have finished GF5.

SPOILERS AHEAD

No really, it's spoily

I actually don't think the end justify the means. You're correct about that. What I meant was more in line with: "I was right to hope that Cooler heads would prevail if the rebels win". And "totally validated my efforts to help the moderate rebels".

You're both correct that the terrible destruction was not and should not be justified because after 100 atrocities, the moderates had enough.

calling trajkovites terrorists and the most evil faction in the game series is sort of a hypocrite move since they don't do any worse than the rebels themselves

?!?

The Trakovites ask you to:

- Release the shredbugs, something that fanatic rebels made.

- Release Taygen's disease, something that gets Taygen banished from the Shapers in all endings I've seen. Something fanatic shapers did and Rebels didn't do. THere's no Drakon in the game working on a disease that kills humans.

- Break Alwan's Line, to prove a point and have Unbound terrorize the people.

Aside of being downright evil quests, the very purpose of the whole quest line is to terrorize people and their leaders to make them fear Shaping. That's why they are terrorists.

Before Litalia gets Ghaldring killed for the rebellion they started together. On the other hand, even mention of harming Litalia got a Drakon in trouble from Ghaldring.

So, Trakovites do all the bad things each other faction does. Astoria betrays the Shapers by having you destroy the Line so Alwan can taste defeat. Litalia does it too (and betrays Ghaldring). Rebels make shredbugs (and never ask you to release them). Litalia has you release them. Shapers make the disease. Litalia has you release it.

I would also like to remind you that using terror as a weapon was Litalia's M.O. even in the part of GF3 I've played.

There are some serious global distinctions between the one rebel faction and the three shaper factions in G5

Well, we're talking about different things. When I say "Trakovites are not rebels" and "Astoria's faction is rebel faction" I meant... as far as reputation goes. It was probably not clear cause I then described the other factions as too Shapery etc.

 

I'm not so sure whether I think self-shaping like the canisters and geneforge is inherently bad or not, but even on an individual scale, the side effects are readily apparent. Even if it were to be allowed, self-shaping should probably be even more strictly regulated than shaping in general.

 

First thing first, even from GF4, you see people reluctant to make Drakons or Gazers cause they're too powerful. Litalia herself says at a point "hmm... what to make to bolster our numbers? Gazers are too independent, Rots are bad for morale..."

So yes, the Rebels realize by that time the dangers of Shaping and that control is required. The Drakons don't see the need to put a cap on individual power, not the need to control who can shape.

After all, it's the HUMAN side that tells to every random guy "Welcome to the citadel! There's a Geneforge here, two stairs to the left, climb a step of stairs. It's a colored pool. Put your hand in there and if you survive come to us for details". The Drakons don't do that. They don't allow everyone to use GForges just because they asked nicely.

Now, on other things...

Spoiler warning:

SERIOUSLY, That's a big spoiler. Like discussing the finales of GF5.

xuerebx and Blxz and everyone that didn't finish GF5 should not read it. Like, really not. It's not worth spoiling the endgame just to see one's point in an argument.

And yes, it's a "O_O" moment. You will regret reading below if you haven't ended GF5 with the REBELS.

I will talk about the rebel ending of GF5.

****** You've been warned *****

The rebels soon realize idonotexist42 is right. Geneforges are drained and even Drakons accept it. Even if the Rebellion wins, the Geneforges are gone.

Sanity prevails. The Humans and Serviles rebel against the Drakons and bring them to heel, and beat some humility and sense to them.

The rebellion is totally validated. The serviles are liberated and Shaping is controlled, but creations have rights in some parts of the world. If Litalia survives, Trakovites get "no-Shaping" lands.

Did I know that when I was playing GF? No. But I knew there's a possibility for that Utopia.

Could it have been "And the contra-rebellion against the Drakons fails. Bolstered by self-shaping, the Drakons were too powerful, too disciplined. And they could make more like themselves. In the end, the serviles and the humans bent the knee to the Drakons that just replaced the Shaper tyranny with an even more cruel Drakon tyranny."

Yes. I hoped it wouldn't but I didn't know it wouldn't. I actually hoped there WOULD be such an ending if you played GF5 and helped the Drakons too much.

That's why I was fighting for the Rebellion and that's why I was sabotaging Drakons when I could.

The Trakovites under Litalia? Not rebels. Terrorists. The most evil faction in the whole game series, and I say that without playing the first 2 games. Cause there can't be any faction worse than that.

Litalia has gone completely bonkers. Taygen made a disease? Unleash it. Drakons made bugs that destroy crops? Unleash them. There's a control center to control creations? Destroy it so they go rogue. I wonder why she didn't ask me to just unleash the two Unbound that were in the Drakon city... probably didn't know of them thank God, cause that's totally her M.O.

AND LITALIA WAS A SHAPER.

So was the Monarch that decided he didn't really need other people. At all. "Let's kill everyone that I didn't make" guy.

Taygen is not too much behind and he hasn't touched a cannister.

The most powerful and evil people have come from the ranks of the Shapers.

That proves that Shapers are not able to weed out the power-mad. Not that the Rebels can, mind you. But Rebels give rights to creations.

So, from three of smoking addicts in a room with a leaky gas cuisine... one is against slavery while the other is pro-slavery.

The pro-slavery guy tries to smoke about 40 cigarettes and opens an window. Still the kitchen will blow up, just later.

Why three people in the room? Cause one is a smoking addict AND a pyromaniac (Litalia & Monarch).

There are some serious global distinctions between the one rebel faction and the three shaper factions in G5

Well, we're talking about different things. When I say "Trakovites are not rebels" and "Astoria's faction is rebel faction" I meant... as far as reputation goes. It was probably not clear cause I then described the other factions as too Shapery etc.

I would like to say SPOILERS AHEAD

that there are two rebel factions in GF5 (hardcore rebels and moderate rebels under a Shaper councilor), two Shaper factions (hardcore Shapers and Shapers so hardcore that most other shapers oppose them) and ... Trakovites that are not rebels at all.

Played GF4, GF5 and part GF3 (still playing it). I always side with the rebels but they do some awful stuff. In GF3, I may actually side with the Shapers. I'll see how it goes.

It's not a good choice and a bad choice. It's choosing from two horrible choices. Good people exist in both sides and get killed and bad people exist in both sides and exploit the rivalry.

PS. I consider the story of GF4 to be the best, but that may be because it was the first I played. But I was the game I found I was more invested in helping the rebels there and defeat the evil mage empire that was killing my friends and enslaving sentient creatures since the first 5 minutes.

You can leave? I haven't done that. I ran the whole "finale" without going to a city. And 50th lvl lifecrafter with just these creations you mentioned? Why didn't you make more level 5s? I was with 2 high level (from artifacts) gazers, 1 drakon, 1 Kyshaak and 2 tralls. Add to that Platano's robe and other artifacts and items and you would be able to cleave them without any problem.

At your level, a well boosted top rank group could cleave 2-3 rotgroths per turn.

Actually, I never had a problem with this fight. Do you take out the pillars and the side-drakons? Get the extra creations that are locked in rooms?

since we already have all the different opinion choices between shaper and rebel.

MWAHAHAAHHAHA... Oh, the sweet innocence.

No spoilers. I want to listen your surprised comments once you realize that the above statement is wrong.

Blxz did you reach Taygen already?

What level does a pacifist end up, compared to non pacifists?

Wait what? I haven't finished GF3, so I won't read any of this, but is it really possible to end GF3 without landing a blow or making a creation?

Greta is awesome! She helps push your rep towards rebels if needed. There's a really nice shaper that does the same somewhere else. \

Mekkhen... She really helps.

Captain Kane want me to give names of traitors even though they are the people who helped me reach the safehouse.

Welcome to the dilemmas that make the game great!

Both sides have good people and bad people. Both sides rightfully view the other side as an enemy. Remember: In a war good people from each side have to kill good people from the other side. This goes double for civil wars.

I did not betray that poor dock-working rebel and had no problems at all. I also didn't betray the caravan. I didn't betray the safe-house. When Shapers started to become shifty and too suspicious... I had to throw a few otherwise good people under the bus to get in their "let's tolerate him a bit more" side.

It required me doing some things I regret in the later chapters or betray people I liked.

Giving Shaila to the Shapers in Chapter 1 was easy.

If you want to keep open the Trakovite option (the most morally right finale IMO) do NOT betray that Trakovite spy. Not until you talk with him and do his quest with te cannister.

5 Fire shaping is not "very good" but he's just 10th level. I doubt I had that much at 10th. Also, unless I'm very mistaken, every +1 in shaping is +1 level. Every -2- levels is +1 str, dex, int, endurance.

Not that it's not important to raise fire shaping etc just making sure I remember this correctly.

If you want some damage variety, make 3 cryoras and 1 fyora but keep around 15-20 essence.

DO NOT worry yet about keeping them alive. Sure, it's better if they survive a couple of level-ups but you will end up absorbing them eventually for better creations. They really don't hold up to higher tier creations.

As a note: Rebels are (IMO) better people so far. Shapers pay better. I went pro-rebel in the end, but I was sitting the fence more or less till the end.

You have very good fire shaping. I would suggest absorbing that extremely expensive cryora (It costs as much as 3 good ones) and making more with just 2 int. If you want some damage variety, make 3 cryoras and 1 fyora but keep around 15-20 essence free and use blessing magic before fights. Replenish as necessary by going back to safe places. Like Dilame.

Your early build is actually very good for fights. You should concentrate on mechanics and leadership now in my opinion for at least 3 levels. Getting a 6-7 to mechanics and leadership will make your life easier (and less expensive).

Without giving spoilers, based on what you say above, I would say do not align with Alwan yet. Wait till you reach the Dera Reaches.

When I played with Litalia, I think the rebels were destroyed and got the Ashen isles (if that at all).