alhoon

X² may seem good... but it produces too smart serviles! Frakly, the amount of servilles that could be considered smart (let alone geniouses like Moseh, Taygen, Rawal, the lads that made the geneforge...) is very limited. Which of course can't be easily determined since a "would-have-been-smart" servile that is not even taught to speak correctly and only learns to sweep floors will have learned to sweep floors faster and that is it.

PS. Avoid using many degrees of freedom.

PS2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_distribution

That's what we should be looking at.

Nah, I just use "essence slots" that are completely separate. Shapers are IMC (IMC= In my campaign) a wizard path, Guardians\warriors a fighter path, Agents are (unlike the game) a rogue path. Spell list is a modified druid list: No spells that summon things, very few necromancy stuff + some wizard spells.

Having creations does not affect the game's balance. Creations do not make the character stronger, they make the party stronger. That's not the same thing.

Effectively, creations make the party bigger, like more players do.

I've already moved GF to D&D next rules without a hassle. The MAIN problem is that if you use Shaper PCs, you end up with a huge number of combatants.

Well... you asked me a question. I based my answer on stuff, including longevity and the impressiveness of Servile's magic.

You can disagree with me, apparently you do, but to say "hey! I didn't mention longevity!" won't disqualify it from my assessment.

Perhaps we should... ask Blxz that knows biology and some sociologist or something what ACTUALLY counts as "this create > that creature"

Does longevity count? Does adaptability? How important is reason anyway? What about procreational abilities? How about resistant to the elements and how good the creature is in surviving in its environment?

Unless we find a semi-legit answer to that... I'll keep mention longevity as an important factor, reason and intellect as another one, magic-impressiveness as a third one...

and consider adaptability and lack of ability to procreate effectively not that important.

Another factor: Serviles have a greater tendecy to become tribal and wild. Even smart serviles fall to that often. Like Footracer in GF5 but also others that I forget.

But I agree that the ability of the Serviles to learn magic, even unimpressive, through scarification was very very good.

But still... not that impressive magic. We already established that Serviles are adaptable creatures. I'm not convinced that this is as important as their deficient intelligence or lack of ability to survive without help.

PS. I'm a teaching assistant in the University and one of the subjects I assist my professor with is statistics. I love them.

Keep them coming.

HOWEVER, I'm not sure everyone else loves statistics. So... I'll use spoilers. NOTE TO PEOPLE: read the spoilers, I don't get too technical. Even less than Unbound Servile.

Actually you're right they're adaptive. BUT, at the time of the games, they're still inferior IMO.

Most reptiles are faster to adapt than humans. That doesn't make lizards superior to us.

Blxz: You also said "situationally inferior" and not "inherently inferior". I would disagree. While some serviles are educated and can speak, there are also Serviles that cannot learn to speak well even if they're free for years.

Even in the ranks of the rebels, there are Servile carers.

Half the race being on range of human intelligence and half of it significantly below it would make them a less intelligent race. Truly smart serviles, to the level of the average spy or researcher (agent \ shaper or mage) are far fewer. Aside of Mekhen that was exceptionally smart, I've not seen many serviles that could do espionage if it wasn't for them being ignored and overlooked.

Another thing is that many serviles have the creation aversion to rogues, panic easily and are confused easily.

Mekhen in GF5 was reverting back to slave within a year, hence I would say they're much easier to brainwash.

I would say Serviles have an average IQ about 15 less than humans (with standard deviation 10, mean 100 for humans). As such, the 0.6% of Serviles are smarter than the 84% of humans. But the 93% of humans is smarter than 50% of serviles.

About Servile magic:

Not that impressive.

About Servile longevity:

There are very long-lived serviles and there are variants that are short-lived. Literally in the same game I'll see descriptions of "He\she is old even by the standards of the long-lived serviles!" but also "Serviles are not long lived" leaving me with the opinion that mine-duty serviles at least, are not long-lived*

*Although thinking of it, that may be situational and not genetic. In GF3, in the academy, you're given a hypothetical question about a crystal mine where Serviles die by the dozen.

Senses:

I have no idea if Serviles listen or hear better than humans. They're not exceptionally good or bad, but are they somewhat better\worse? No idea.

Wait, as a race or play characters?

As a race, sure. A lot of serviles are mentally deficient to the point they can't survive by themselves and need handlers.

As for their adaptability that was mentioned... that's made with Shaper magic. The Shapers don't mind Shaping serviles. In GF4, the Shapers create a new kind of loyal servile; Shaped into adulthood. The poor guy even says he'll die at the end of the rebellion and he's sad that he won't be able to serve the Shapers anymore. Rogia, in GF5 is one such servile I think; not a turncoat, a double agent.

Hence, I don't think Serviles are easy to adapt; they just are genetically modified when adaption is needed.

Nah, she doesn't fit my playstyle. I want to be Shaping pro first (based on intelligence, not shaping skills), magic second. Combat skills non-existent.

If I replay GF4, I'll have a "shocktrooper" that rarely participates in battles and just sink points into intelligence, Mechanics\leadership, Shaping skills, endurance, Parry. I will raise dex, missile weapons by 2 (probably training in the Fence) and go for blessing 3-4 and mind 3.

I just want some greater challenge and a reason to use all these spores, pods and stuff I collect. Perhaps I'll even use a wand! Who knows.

With a Shaper, I never had trouble in geneforge games (early 3 finished 4-5) with just a little blessing magic and no mind spells aside of unlock; I finished GF4 having bought 2-3 points in blessing magic, same with GF5. So far I don't plan to invest in blessing magic more than required for speed in GF3. Although, to be sincere, in GF3 I can't cast speed much (yet) because the Shaper doesn't have much energy...

Since the Shocktrooper is good at Shaping and Servile is weak, and I've never found the need for more than 3 in blessing \ mind magic, personally I consider Shocktrooper better although I've been told not many agree with me.

It's actually the class I plan to play as when I replay GF4.

As I've mentioned, I have a friend that played the Geneforge games (or the demos for some games) and he prefers swords from magic. So Shocktrooper is an actual choice for him.

I should go hurt myself because I have a different opinion that you?

Not nice buddy.

A friend of mine prefers swords from magic generally. He plays warriors in games etc. With the emphasis these games place on Shaping, I believe he would play a Shocktrooper. He has played the first games as a Guardian.

Strange... I have to doublecheck this.

I could get a screenshot, but it's a hassle.

Well, that's my position on it too Lilith, but I would also add that Shocktrooper would for me be kinda boring: A shaper with less magic. I wouldn't invest in combat skills; I would still rely on my creations and perhaps a little parry and a baton to carry the day.

Certainly not for GF5, I have creations at 35-40 in stats.

That 12.5% is 1 more gazer.

And you have less essence because you need some combat skills and your healing skill costs more. Hence you're 1-2 intelligence down from a Shaper of your lever + 12.5% less essence.

Agreed, bumping up is an extremely inefficient thing to do with Essence, I don't disagree on that. BUT if you have 7 tier 5s and 300 essence remaining, you can bump them.

PS. I had a 44 level Cryora with boosted str and dex is GF5. Cost less than a Cryodrayk, did about the same damage and had so much dex nothing could hit her!

And that's the only case in 2 1/2 games I didn't regret putting essence to a creation.

Well, I mean I boost creations I am sentimentally attached with, knowing full well that they're not worth it. That Cryora was the only one that, at the late game, was worth the essence. She was better than the Cryodrayk I had with me for long, and cheaper.

EDIT: Kyshaaks can tank and use magic. Drayks are not too shabby in close combat for their cost compared to Alphas.

Magic creations are interesting and pack a punch, but less hp.

So... I guess an agent could go for Fire \ magic mostly but still misses out compared to a Shaper that has more diversity.

Anyway, to return to the question of the OP: I consider the Servile the weakest possible class although that opinion doesn't seem to align with the consensus in this forum.

First, I respectfully disagree that going for one skill is good; Fire creation have cold attacks (Cryoras, cryodrayk). Magic creations pack a lot of damage (Vlish\Wingbolts\Gazers). Battle creations are good meatshields.

So, I would say 5-6 in magic\Fire and 3 battle is a good target, and the rest by equipment.

Then you sink a LOT of points in mechanics, leadership and of course intelligence. You can never have too much essence.

You can afford 7 top-tiers? You can still use more essence to bump them up

Shapers\lifecrafters\Shocktroopers are best because they have a lot of essence. Nothing I've seen beats essence. A class that would be bad in melee, moderate in shaping and bad at magic but has x2 essence than Shaper would IMO be the strongest class.

As such, Agents, infiltrators and serviles are in my opinion the weakest. A 20th level Agent would have strong mind magic and all...and half the creations of a 20th level Shocktrooper.

Yes, Agent may be fun to play. But Shocktrooper would be hands-down easier.

Shocktroopers don't need more than 3-4 blessing and mind 3 to open locks. Then, like Shapers, they can sit in the corner of the map and let their creations do the work. And Healing is a shaping skill... so if regen aura is in the game Shocktroopers get even more out of their class.

And yes, I'm talking about a shocktrooper that completely ignores combat skills (except parry) and strength. Who cares about armor? Same build as Shaper with less magic and more parry; perhaps a bit more dex. Still easier than Agent IMO. And more boring.

And you also have to look your friends in they eye and explain to them why on earth you play a combat-2nd class and never touch combat skills aside of parry 5-6. And sell items that give strength and keep items that boost blessing magic. And you pay to raise magic skills while you don't even bother with canisters of combat skills.

If you're weak in melee, you never need to make up for it. Actually if you're strong in Shaping, you don't need to make up for anything except for the unlock spell. OK, a few spores and batons to heal are nice and even at worse, blessing at 3 and healing at 3 are easy.

But agents, infiltrators and serviles cannot shape! As such, I would say they're weaker than the Good-at-Shaping \ moderate at shaping classes.

I was never ever tempted to play a servile.

BLXZ: I didn't get the reference.

Anyway, feel free to mod it. It is, theoretically, possible.

I doubt Jeff even KNOWS who the protagonist is, since you can be rebel-shaper-servile.

Of course, non-canonically us modders can provide an answer in our mods

Speaking of that, I expected to see way more lifecrafters in GF5. Fighting a war against Shapers could have ended more quickly if after gaining so much land, the Rebels rounded up everyone interested in half of Terrestia and turn (those that survive the ordeal) to lifecrafters. A Shaper takes years of training. A Lifecrafter a month or two... when there's no pressure. If there's pressure they can throw whatever caution they have in the wind and introduce every willing servile, drakon or human to the geneforge as they do with the protagonist in GF4.

Actually #6 works for against the GF3 theory. Greta and Alwan's meetings with the GF3 Shaper were far deeper and personal than with the GF4 rebel. They travelled together at their formative years.

#4 is kinda more bogus than clear. GF5 makes clear that the Geneforge of Rawal "resets" the character although he or she have used a geneforge in the past.

My favorite theory? GF1 or (with a stretch cause of the time) GF2 protagonist turned to Monarch turned to GF5 character.

Nah you are in, the "Rebel" quest is actually in the Astoria quest chain too.

Did the mod inject some extra interest in a game you've already seen? Was the reward worth the effort?

PS. If you chose the dialogue option that is more or less a decision by your character to NOT pursue power because of the dangers... that's the "real" Trakovite option that we discussed earlier. You can be a "not-pure" Trakovite as Litalia calls herself surrounding herself in a dozen creations and go for the power. You can finish the game as a "not pure" trakovite and still explore all the quests in the research chain.

If you actually go for the lab and the power it provides I would suggest putting 8-10 notes to unlock all the options and check them (to see what the research quests are about) before doing research.

Of course it doesn't justify 2 weeks of work, or actually more than 10 minutes, I didn't know it was such hard a procedure.

It's not that I can't listen to it, it's just that I need to crank sound to 100% to listen to it as loud as I like. No biggie.

I feel you. But... it would be too much work to add a shaper-accessible lab. Keep in mind that you can align with the Shapers in the mod, in which case the Rebels go after your lab. It's just that you can't let's say "unlock" the location for the lab unless you do a specific rebel quest. I have added quests after that where you can go against the rebels in the mod.

I could tell you where you start the lab and that would probably answer your questions of why it needs to be "unlocked" by a rebel quest. After you finish the identity quest if you have trouble guessing\finding where the location is, ask and I'll tell you.