alhoon

That was not mercenary heart. I didn't know that they had canisters (although truth be told, I guess they would have). I did it to weaken Ghaldring's faction in the rebellion. I was angry with him. As for voice of the rebellion, Greta is quite open on working with Astoria, to the point of admitting it and vocal on her misgivings with Ghaldring. As a note, the mod I work on now, includes several rebel quests for Greta.

Well, let's say that I have predicted the outcome of the spoily one. From what several people (humans, serviles and Drayks) say in GF4 and GF5 it wasn't hard to predict. The first blows are done within GF5. Remember that weirdo servile that has a control tool? Foot-racer? She's loyal to Ghaldring and would allow me to pass. Guess what I did in order to help Phyllida of the human side. EDIT: Changed the spoily part so could you remove it from your quote?

Sane Gazers: There is one in GF4 that guards the passage to Burnwood. There's also a couple sane ones in GF5 that are lightly pro-rebel. They took claim of some land, and don't bother anyone except to harass Shapers One is Taliss-? in the big fort, that has mind-wiped the commander. The other... the other controls some forces against the Shapers in the passage to the big Shaper capital and attacks on sight. Yes, he counts as sane; he has a job to do, and does it.

They lasted for many years. I would also like to say that people really, really like war, when it's others losing sons. I.e. the people that make the decisions, the people that have less to lose and the people that stand to gain more (usually the very same group) are pro-war. Hence, Humanity has been in constant warfare until... 70 years ago. Litalia and the player help them create the Unbound and Greta helps defending them. The Canister junky, Jarred, also helps make the Unbound. Man, how I wanted to kill that guy...Anyway, yes, the Drakons are more powerful than the rest of the rebellion. However, they're arrogant. The Shapers were more powerful than the rebellion initially, and lost tons of land. It is more about power IMO. And the part about ideology? That's because the ideology is who would have the power.Shapers - Drakons - The real rebellion, all three sides fight for power. And within the Drakons... they fight for power (and to get rid of Scottish drakons) constantly. To the point that each time I meet Ghaldring, I have to kill some of his competitors. No, he does not. The Drakon in the lab tries to get Litalia killed and tells you to keep it a secret cause Ghadring nearly killed this Drakon when she suggested it. And to return to Litalia, actually that's a spoiler, nevermind. Greta harbors Trakovites in GF5 and the rebels, after Litalia left the rebellion largerly leave the Trakovites be, as we learn from a Trakovite in a city. So... after pages of discussion that could be full essays, you tell me we mostly agree (with the exception I like Greta and Mekhen the Servile boss). Well played sir, well played. He didn't disagree. Alwan just wanted his office, so he was just kicked in a closet cause who-the-heck-cares-about-the-outsider-boss. The Trakovite corpses in the cages, these belonged to people that remotely disagreed. Or to people that gave them a little food in secret. We don't know that. In fact, there's enough evidence in barred locations of Shapers that not only ignored orders, but turned against the Order. So, it's reasonable to assume that 2-3 snubbed\exiled Shapers would have started a rebellion at some point, perhaps even taking students illegally.

Eh, no. It's actually quite common for the victors of a rebellion to turn on each other. Since I don't want to turn it political, I'll refer historical examples since current civil wars actually affect people that may be in this forum or visit it in the future. Out of respect for them, I will try to stay out of anything 21st century. Greek independence war: We had TWO civil wars while fighting the Turks on which side would govern Greece once we won, and the 2nd stopped mainly because we nearly lost the revolution. Second Balkan war: OK, we nearly kicked the Turks out of the Balkans, who would own which part of the newly liberated Balkans? War. Greek resistance against Nazi occupation: Rightwings and leftwings were more or less fighting among themselves from late 1943 and once the Germans left, we went to a full-blown civil war that lasted for extra 3 years. Without googling it, I think the Irish did the same when fighting against the English in early 20s. It is actually the opposite. In the finale of GF4, the Drakons let the human side back to rebuild. In GF5, there's Phyllida and Greta in the Drakon cities, both angry that the Drakons have them benched while they fight the Shapers mostly by themselves. Phyllida is very illuminating about that, saying that although she's a commander back in the human-side (half of Terrestia) she wanted action, not watch ornks grow so she asked to be transferred to the front. On the contrary, Drakons have moved most of their equipment and numbers to the front lines, in the just-built Gazaki-Uss, which proves to be a grave mistake for them. And Alwan or Crowly would have had him tied in post and flogged for that. Taygen was abusing even his Guardian general. Rawal would have placed a control tool in him. Etc. Diya-? is not cruel and tyrannical. The Shaper order is. While not as bad, they had faced rebellions in the past (and tried to suppress knowledge of them) and they finished the conquest of Terrestia about a couple of centuries before GF5, since all the "wood people" forts are said to be about that old. And since those areas are next to their birthplace, they got Ilya and the other parts later. Thinking of it... they haven't finished with the Forsaken lands of GF4 when the rebellion took it from them; sure they didn't have to conquer them since they were empty lands, but they haven't finished terra-forming them. Hmmm... I have to admit you're absolutely right on that and I would even go as far as to say that a young shaper is BETTER than an outsider. The general is older and neither has faced enemy shapers. And Diya-? is at least a Shaper and has a better idea of what a Shaper could do. Both were unprepared. Yes, I have to admit that although I don't like Dina-? he has more qualifications for being the commander in that situation (although he's a pompous whiner). I disagree that they are universally insane and harmful to society. I disagree that they see themselves above any law. I disagree that without a law to govern them they should not exist. They are also awesome and I usually make several! How dare you sir, say that my favorite warriors should be put to death once they finish their term with me? I imagine my character keeping my Drakon and Thralls enslaved and releasing to freedom gazers and cryodrayks. (My end-game party is usually Cryodrayk, Drakon, Thrall, Gazer + extras) O_O Never said that. They are more willing to share governing power. They are far less tyrannical. They are also grossly less wise in their use of Power. Sure, they didn't make the Purity agent or any disease but the Shredbugs are not too far behind + Unbound and of course, the most unwise use of power of them all: Geneforge. TOO much power that doesn't just corrupt as power tends to do...it also makes you less sane. Only Litalia spends any effort to go after Trakovites from the rebels and few enforce her wishes. The Drakons don't give a rat. Also "traitor" doesn't mean someone that says "perhaps Shaping is not so blessed after all. I think we should stop it. Just a personal opinion. Would you like something to drink? They also deal with traitors less cruelly. Hmmm? Which part? I'm always willing to admit that the Rebels have tons of rotten eggs and they commit atrocities, and I'm always eager to overthrow the Shapers despite my allies being far from ideal.

Serviles and Drayks vs the exhausted by the fight Drakons. And as Blxz said...once you actually have mages you will have a magocracy. But at least a better one. Sure, Ghaldring could have become a Stalin-like figure, but unlike Stalin, Greta and the Drayks are preparing to fight him since late GF4. At the time of the GF4-GF5 games it is more important to topple the Shapers than worry that Ghaldrin and a few Salassar-types would dominate the post-Shaper Era. With the Shapers out of the equation, there can be a future and if needed a new rebellion with Drayks, Serviles that can think for themselves and humans. In a Shaper victory there would be no Drayks, no independent serviles and the humans would have been broken. It would take probably many failed rebellions against Shaper Tyranny to reach an opportunity for victory as good as it seems to be in GF5. Centuries of oppression. On the wisdom of Shaper Laws: I agree and I also agree with most of the Shaper laws regarding to Shaping (except the one that creations that break away should be autokilled). It's the part of the Shaper law that considers them the ultimate bosses that can decide on whether someone (even humans to a degree) should exist or not that I can't stomach. I would like to refer to the common-sense rule about he gm plants you mentioned: Is it there in your rules and ethos anything that says the guy making coffee for you in the cafeteria of the facility is supposed to jump when you say jump? Are you his ruler because you can design (responsibly) gm plants? I guess no and that the constitution of the area makes you equal in the eyes of the law. That difference is why I hate the Shapers. With the rebels, it could be a better future or perhaps a worse one, but the existing situation has to go cause it's very difficult to make things worse than they are with the Shapers. It's not at all to hoard power I think. The rules that are about "hoarding power" (i.e. money) in your field are, I think, the rules about industrial espionage so that you can't just move to a different company and give them all the nice stuff. Diya's general had to work behind his back for one of the most reasonable ideas that could have restored peace. That someone just fresh out of the lab, and young, would just allow his general to make a few suggestions and not vice versa (i.e. the general running things and Diya being locked in his lab making things and offering suggestions) is part of the problem. Who the heck was Diya, to be made responsible of a colony under attack? The so-responsible-Shaper law, should have a clause that junior governing shapers surrender authority if their place is under attack to veterans, even if they are outsiders.Remember Rockfall in GF5? With the Outsider in command and Shapers dropping by, making creations and leaving, allowing an actual military man, not a book-worm, to command the situation? That kind of thing. Drayks, Drakons, Gazers: All sentient creations must be set free and allowed to exist. If some of them go anti-social... well, that's what Guardians\Warriors and Agents\infiltrators are for. Well, Blxz can tell you more about it, but from what I've seen from his game, Taygen (that seems to agree with the first part of what you said but not the other two) proves that it is an immoral but working idea. He succeeds. If the Shapers refrain from making intelligent life again, and stop at stupid semi-sentient alphas along with a small number of dumb serviles (the kind Litalia makes) they can at least not have to worry about intelligence leading to independence. If what keeps them in power is not their wise use of this power, the need to lose their power. Which is what I work for. PS. I actually disagree that the appearance of control kept them in power. While appearances helped, it is mainly their cruel, cold and uncompromising evisceration of anyone that remotely disagrees with them* that held them in power coupled with their magical abilities and an unending pool of Battle Alphas. * I would remind you the fate of captured Trakovites in GF4 and the multitude of whipping tools in their settlements and forts. Alwan especially seems a bit too fond to have his soldiers tied to posts and whipped for any discipline infraction. I would love to see you Shaper-buddies defend torture and locking people in cages to die of starvation for suspected harboring of weird ideas.

The guns aren't needed. Till you killed them, Batons were a better choice. Well, the Rebellion was listening to the non-shapers more and was promoting more of then to Shaper-dom. The Drakons first with the Shapers close second were far from "Shapers first" although they were hiding it. Both have evolved to "Only we matter but we tolerate the rest". In the past the Shapers were trying to cure people, developed the living tools, ornks, resistant plants, doors-that-open, machinery etc etc. You all have seen the foundry; these days 1/100 Shapers seems to be working on something beneficial. And before someone says "that's the war!" I remind you that in all the mines, abandoned labs etc there is very little innovation showing. We have reason to believe that the "technological advancement" under the Shapers was moving with glacial speeds at these times.

OK, there's a lot to answer here, but I'll tackle it in a short and incomplete way that would hopefully still give answers. Yes, I agree that geneforge is close to the French\American Revolution because it is, after all, a revolution. On the other hand, both these bloody revolutions created instability in the short term and see how much better the world is now compared to the 18th century. I.e. Contrary to your statement, I think the long-term effects of the Rebellion would offset the bad. On Shapers: I respectfully disagree with you. They don't seem apathetic, they are apathetic and increadibly snobbish towards outsiders. That is IMO prevalent in all GF games I've played. Alwan even defends that stance of "screw the Outsiders". On the rebellion's short-sightness: Again, I disagree. The world the rebels eventually plan to build (not Ghaldring, ALL the rebellion: Serviles, Drayks, Humans and Drakons) may be attainable or not. I actually believe it is attainable to be egalitarian while using Shaping and allow other races to exist in the world of geneforge and I don't see why you say it's not. On the other hand, the world of the Shapers is doomed to perish. If not in that rebellion, then the next. It is unattainable to think no Shaper would ever make a race that can Shape + keeping whole species as slaves + keeping normal humans under the boot preventing them to reach their ambitions. Something will crack again and a new rebellion will start. If the humans were kept more primitive, having too much trouble simply surviving, then perhaps you could extend it. But as the increased prosperity of the renaissance brought increasing pressure to the ruling elites, so it would in Terrestia. Humans with few problems would realize that enslaving serviles is morally wrong. That 5 cryodrayks living on a mountaintop without messing with anyone don't deserve to die just because they're too hard to be kept enslaved. That humans should have a greater word on their destiny. And that would lead to rebellion. On why I support the (real) rebellion: Because I support egalitarianism. I don't think Drayks and Drakons are abominations that should die for the crime of being individuals and not puppets. I don't think serviles should be kept uneducated and created stupid (like the one Litalia made). I find it cruel to burn serviles to death as they beg for their lives, condemning them to such fate because a Shaper lost control of the puppet-strings (as Litalia did before joining the rebellion). I think Shapers are too tyrannical and too power-hoarding. Ghaldring's faction is barely better than the Shapers; they want to replace them with Drakons (i.e. Ghaldring) creating more or less most of the same problems. But at least, they don't want to destroy humans and drayks and serviles. And no, that's not good enough for me. I'm not fighting just so that everyone would have the right to exist, period, while serving reptilian masters instead of robed masters. But the alternative, the status quo, is IMO evidently worse. WHAT I WANT: The not-so-strange ideal is more like Astoria's\Greta's faction: A modicum of control on who can Shape, restriction (not outright ban) to self-shaping, egalitarianism and more open government. Add to that a supervising agency and we're good. Even better: Abolish the magocracy. Shapers\Drakons are not bosses. Drayks, serviles, non-shaping people have their say as Greta tries to accomplish in GF4 and GF5 and the drakons ignore her.

Don't spoil it and I don't plan to fight honorably. After all, fighting honorably means not hiding behind living creatures you control like puppets as they die in your name. Nope, not my style. I just can't find it in myself to do such a blatant act of betrayal against the Shapers when, in this game so far, the Rebels went "We don't like society" (justified) "so we will burn it to ash" (unjustified and with tons of deaths). In GF4, the Shapers dropped on us and killed my friends. In GF3, Litalia dropped on us and killed my friends. Yes, I agree with Lankan that it is unfair the way they are treated. I agree it's time for change. I agree that this change must happen through battle and fire against the tyrranical status quo. But as part of the status quo, I'm not ready to do such a grand betrayal yet.

He could not have put dozens of mines in his lab... And "the first genuine shaper you've encountered happens to be one of the weakest most pathetic shapers in the entire series. " Do you mean Diyawania? Cause he's by far NOT weak. I will, obviously, clean his island and yet he wipes me out without a second thought.

Nah, if I lie he just suspects me and kicks me out, doesn't attack. I have to provoke him to start a fight by telling him "OK, I confess I broke in your lab, stole banned equipment that shouldn't exist and gave it to your enemies. Now your enemies have powers the Order didn't want them to ever have, through means that the Order forbids." It is so blatant betrayal that I find I can't do it, at least not yet. I sympathize with the rebels, I consider the Shapers the bad guys generally but... I can't go that far. Not yet. Not just because I hate Diwaniya's whining and not so soon after the rebels tried to kill me, killed my friends and said "oh, you survived. Want to join?" :-/ I want to fight for the rebellion, but honorably. Or at least more honorably.

I already mentioned Lankan has anger issues didn't I? I also mentioned I'm biased; hence I don't mention everything bad the rebels do... But Lankan was more convincing in his anger. "You couldn't let us have hope" speech as he sees the only means he could use to fight back against the Shaper Tyranny evaporate was touching. It would STILL be asymmetric warfare; One guy able to throw fire-bolts wouldn't be enough to win against the massive force Diwaniya has hoarded in his home*. But it would give them hope, access to secrets and powers the Shapers decided they were not for them. And yes, it's just firebolt. Come on, is turning someone to a sentient fyora THAT bad? Though, I wonder how Alwan didn't attack me when I gave the canister to Lankan. I kinda felt as betraying everything in one grand motion of disobedience when I gave him the canister. No, turning someone to a sentient Fyora is not that bad. It is a grand betrayal though. And empowering people that align with those that killed my friends. I am not ready to do that. Not yet. I think I won't give him the canister. The rebels haven't won me over yet. But I won't destroy the canister either. *But I plan to take care of that for him. I am deeply against Diwaniya, even though he's not the worse the Shapers have shown. He's far from the visionary you portray him to be though; he's totally committed to the status quo and holding to the threads of his power in a world that is changing. That's what I plan to do Owen. The "official" one will be me not giving Lankan's canister till I'm sure I'll go with the rebels. Which at the time, I'm not cause as I said it feels like a betrayal in this game, and Litalia killed my friends.

I did and he didn't believe me. He kicked me out. Anyway, I would like to ask: Is there a way to kill Diwaniya? He keeps kicking my butt whatever exploit I try. I've even tried the tested-and-true method of locking inside the room with the essence pool and spawning an endless stream of creations to take him down hit by hit. Didn't work. He had his own creations swarm in the moment I open the door. I rarely have the time to close the door once the first wave is in, and even if Succeed, they get me in the next wave. What level should I be before I liberate the Harmony from that ... not-madman?

Just to see what would happen, I gave the Canister to Lankan. He promised to fight the good fight (against the Shapers and the monsters created by his benefactor...). I talked to Diwaniya... he went batpoop crazy and killed half my party before I had a chance to act. So much for his weakness...

Yes, Dubi-? is the exception although he still acts superior and pompous. I don't accuse Diwaniya for setting Harmony island on fire more or less. Litalia did that on her own. I accuse the Shapers for fermenting such disloyalty that people would prefer to sit in the mud and get eaten by monsters and I accuse Diwaniya for not doing a better job before the rebellion broke out to build bridges and for failing to communicate to the people his not omnipotent, and that they could and should stick with the Shapers cause the alternative is worse. Thinking on it, Greta hasn't said anything bad about Diwaniya although she seems to like Lankan. EDIT: gave the canister to Lankan. Diwaniya, with extreme ease, wiped me out for the betrayal. So he showed enough strength to do something about the rogues, and not enough control to allow me to explain why I did what I did. He considers the act, rightly, a gross betrayal. But he just attacked and wiped the floor with me and my creations. Alwan and Greta were killed in the first blast, two guards killed one of my vlish and... one of the three alphas in the room killed me. There were more guards, alphas and Ghaalks. He could do more than just whine, even if it was to go up and kill the rebels. Or send those Alphas and Ghaalks he hoards to keep the roads clean.

G3 is not going very well. My latest attempt to play it was cut short by a rage-quit once Dubi-? Fyoras killed me. Owen respectfully, I disagree. Lankan was forced to exile because of one grave mistake. He was charismatic so the "sub-shaper", misused and mistreated herb gatherers went with him once the situation turned bad. Why? Because the Shapers were proven to be vulnerable and they were despised by many people. And there's also the other thing that I heard in a tavern: Whatever Shapers think, the "bargain" is that Shapers keep people safe and prosperous and the people in return serve the Shapers. Monsters running around and Shapers saying "oh, that's beyond my power!" = "and why the heck should we tolerate your pompous attitude and bow down to you?" The Shaper answer to that seems to be (GF4-5) "because if you don't, we will kill you horribly". Not exactly the reply to inspire loyalty. Again, we come to this: If Shapers weren't Tyrannical, there would be no rebellion. Lankan's friends wouldn't jump to the first opportunity, the first sign of vulnerability to abandon the evil magocracy. They would not prefer to sit in a swamp getting eaten by monsters than go back to the Shapers. And I accuse the Shapers for fermenting such disloyalty.

Really? Diya is the least bad Shaper I've met then. Well, perhaps with the exception of the nice Shaper in GF5 that makes turrets. However, when I did.. something, I forget what, to diffuse the situation, Diyawania starts shouting and gets very angry. Are you sure if Lankan is killed that Diya is angered because you did the bad thing and not because you lit a cigar over a gas tank? And in any case, I'm right now angry with Diya cause some of his Fyoras killed me yesterday. Out of the blue. I open a door in his basement and get pawned by some weird Fyoras. I really wish there was a path that I could choose to FORCE these two to work together. Is Diya a kind of "faction" where you can go and take quests after the island is dealt with etc? Or he's there for that island and you can't inform him of what happens further down? I'm pretty sure the big Shaper in the big island will be more Alwan-ish and less Astoria-ish. I vote for Diyawania for the Council. He could work with Astoria to restore peace.

Shaper Hoge is (by 2nd island that I am) the default traitor. Nothing special. Lankan is on the right side although he has a slight anger issue problem and I'll be glad to help him. I already found his canister and I plan to give it to him. To get back on topic: I plan to give Lankan the canister made by Litalia so that Lankan could defeat the monsters Litalia keeps making. Lankan is the best choice for the island; Dubi-whatever is ... not really bad but he's clearly on the losing side. Tell me that's not crazy: "Hi buddy. I am the one making the monsters that kill your friends. I will keep making the monsters but I'll make you powerful enough to survive their attacks. No, it may be easier to STOP sending monsters to kill you, but I prefer to keep at it and just spend tons of purified essence to make you able to survive my attacks."

True enough... but let's go back to Litalia. I think it's beyond doubt that she's insane and dangerous. Whether she's a good leader or not... or whether her mass murdering sprees were justified, is cause for debate. PS. I'm not 100% with the rebels. In GF3, the way the game is shaping up, I may side with the Shapers. Similar to GF4, the "enemy" killed my friends and tries to bully me to join. I sympathize with the rebellion, but I also sympathize with the tons of people in the Ashen islands that are targeted by the rebels.

insanity was always subjective...

When I took my first canister (or used the GForge, not sure) I got a text saying that now I see the world more or less like Shapers do; that people are background noise to their greatness. That's insanity. Sure you can say that Alwan is driven and stubborn. I say he's insane. You can say that general Crowly or whatever-he's-called is part bully and part too naïve to trust a geneforged guy after they killed all his friends. I say he's insane. You can say that weirdo Shaper that actually SHAPES the player in Crowly's fort in the Aziraph is just weird. I call her insane. How about that Shaper working for Alwan in GF5, that when told to desing AGAIN a Control Core, after the previous one fell prey to rogue minds, didn't tell Alwan "With all respect councilor, you're mad." How about that idiot working for Alwan, again in CCB that made a mind that could actually SHAPE instead of just four minds that could just control creations? Madman. etc The Shapers miss the point that if they were not such obnoxious, pompous, tyrannical, genocidal, enslaving buttholes there would be no rebellion, hence no Unbound. The "Great Rebellion" was not the first and if it failed, it would not be the last. Unbound were not nice. They were mad engines of destruction that would kill everything. Well, that's compared to the Shapers and their armies that were not-mad engines of destruction, leveling rebel cities with corpses piling up. Sure, Shapers love to claim the horrors of the Unbound ... when Taygen was working on a doomsday device that obliterated civilization as everyone knew it. Even living tools die, so I would assume the living doors also died. In GF3, one of my first quests were to heal someone that was suffering from a Shaper-made disease, made centuries before the Rebellion. So, Taygen was not the only madman working on diseases. Shaper law exists for a reason, but that reason is to make sure power remains in the hands of Shapers. To ensure that they would collectively abuse common people and creations, without someone taking over them, they put the rule about self shaping so that no Rawals could take over the council by shaping themselves to Godhood like Ghaldring did (and came to dominate the rebellion). And without spoiling the endings of GF5, about the irresponsible dash to power of the rebels during the war: I would like to draw your attention to what happens if the Rebels win, when their survival is no longer at stake.

I don't know WHAT the black pit is, and I want to at least finish HALF of GF3, before I return to my pre-ending save in GF4 to go find what was behind those locked doors in Monarch's place. Greta is not a life-crafter. I don't think she used more than a couple cannisters. In the GF4 ending it says (IIRC) something about people that didn't use many canisters, like Greta... etc. I have barely met any Shaper that counts as sane. I've met ... 2 human Lifecrafters I think. One was Cani-junky Jarred. The other was a totally sane idiot in GF5 in some cabin. All drakon lifecrafters seemed sane for Drakons.

Why're talking Geneforge. Absence of black & White is the hailmark of the series. There are people that can be counted on one hand that are truly indefensible or truly noble. That is given. THAT SAID: I am a decent die-hard rebel! How dare you sir! OK, we had a few bad eggs in the mix (Litalia + Ghaldring) but it's not that the Shapers were better (they had Litalia too + Monarch + Taygen + Moseh + Rawal + a great number of pompous insufferable ########). As you said, tons of Shapers are as ruthless as Litalia (although less mad, less evil and less effective). And while Litalia is the #3 worse person in the late-half of the series (Monarch goes first, Taygen second) IMO, the rebellion is on the right side. Despite Litalia's atrocities and Ghaldring's Shaperish authoritarianism, the rebellion itself fights for liberation from Shaper Tyranny and for Drayks\Drakons for the right to exist. Aside of that, yes, I consider Litalia a mad b- (and Ghaldring a Shaper-wannabe with fangs). And I accuse SHAPERS for allowing such a person to become Shaper. Taygen, Rawal, Litalia, Monarch, Moseh have aaaaaaall slipped through the cracks of the oh-so-responsible-and-effective Shaper evaluations. I completely and absolutely back Greta's faction in the Rebellion and she had validated my support a dozen times over; from calling me buddy more or less in GF4 when she was a general and I was fresh out of Illya province, to saying to Ghaldring's face in GF5 that the rebellion doesn't fight to replace Shaper Tyranny with Drakon Tyranny and warning him to his face again that Drakons would find another rebellion striking them if they push too far. And a few other things I won't spoil from GF5 endings. Greta was not sad to see Litalia's back when she left the Rebellion. PS. Litalia despite what she claims to you, escaped when she figured Monarch would try to kill her, not when she figured "Monarch wanted violence". The Monarch had no reason to lie in his journals. PS2. I let Monarch go, to go obliterate a couple of Shaper cities. I can't claim innocence here. Greta IIRC guessed and didn't approve.

Well, she wasn't getting the laughs out of killing everything, sure. She did it because it was (according to her) necessary. But evil is at its worst when it's convenient. That she KNEW she was doing wrong in GF4, just makes her a clear villain IMO. She chose to do evil, knowingly. I went back and read her replies in GF4. She often mentions "it was cruel, but necessary." or about the Trakovites "they are mad and even if they were right, those ahead of their time end up dead" In each of Litalia's paths, she goes "it's cruel, evil, violent but necessary." She describes (GF4) how she was burning as a test serviles alive, while they were on their knees begging for their lives. She didn't like it, but did it anyway. "Necessary evil". Fast Forward to Rebellion. Attacking a school. She didn't like it, but did it anyway. "Necessary evil." Killing trakovites in GF4. Didn't like it but it wasn't the time to discuss philosophy, so they should die. Didn't like it, but did it. Unbound. The same. I won't spoil GF5 except to say "look at my sig and remember what Litalia asked the player to do, before he\she implied Litalia's crazy". She mentions that, but unlike Greta, she doesn't show any great reluctance. And another thing: For Drakons, failed rebellion = extermination. For rogue serviles = "very possible extermination unless I manage to hide that I rebelled". For the human, failed rebellion = "servitude and possible extermination if my ties to the rebellion are made known". Simply put, he stakes for humans were not as high to unleash WMDs with legs. Drakons faced total oblivion. Back in GF4, Shapers and Rebels didn't know that the Unbound would just be manageable by a seasoned Shaper and that it would take 2-3 to take down a town or that they would waste away because of their power within a year from creation. They were considered the "apocalypse now" version.

Yes, but she totally enjoys her action. She says so in every game. In GF5, describing her history, she says the mass murders in the Ashen Islands were the best years of her life. In GF4, she's very proud about the extremist plan to wipe out every Shaper life and defends that the countless that would die in the fires are necessary. Despite what she claims in GF5, in GF4 she was 120% pro-Unbound, unlike Greta that was reluctant and last-line-of-defense mentality. Greta backed the Unbound because the Rebellion was faltering. Litalia backed (and helped make) the Unbound because she wanted to see every Shaper burn and their empire in ashes. And she says so often.