Dragonboy

I wasn't under the impression Avadon was hated by the community. Disliked by some yes, but certainly not hated. Spiderweb made Avadon in a certain way that was a little different than the previous games. Like any new game series, you win some fans, you lose some fans. I personally didn't love Avadon but it wasn't a bad game by any means. Just not my taste.

Yes, but that would leave Slarty's post straggled in the middle of nowhere in the thread. Thank you, but hurtful comments are never acceptable when said to anyone at any time. Period.

I apologize to everyone on this board for any such implication. That was most definitely not my intention by any means. Mode, may I edit both my previous posts out? I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings even unintentionally. Thank you.

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Are these Forums some kind of twisted psychological experiment on insanity? It would explain a lot.

I would think getting mauled to death by a bear would be both a terrifying and excruciatingly painful way to die. On the other hand, 'Ninja Bear Mauls Man In Downtown Boston,' does make a snazzy headline.

... I'm almost afraid to ask what brought this on.

Beating A5 without finishing a single quest? That's impossible. I mean, just to get past the first part you have to finish the Hunt Hiricks Quest.

At level te I disagree. At level fifteen in Exile you're already completely unstoppable. Forget abusing little known game mechanics. Three fighters dual wielding with three spellcasters to buff and heal them simply crush everything. In the A:EFTP the difficulty of the enemies is tapered to match what Jeff thinks your level should be for that area. Trying the Giant Fortress at level fifteen and your just dead.

I think we all were refering to a freshly created party. I was refering to Torment in that post, and I've already admitted in an earlier post that casual would have a lot easier time. I thought my party was pretty good in AEFTP bit even with maxed out 90 percent psychical resistance for my fighters and low eighty resistance for my spellcasters they still kept killing me in the first round. It was especially annoying as I could've easily beaten them in town. All I needed was one free turn for one my spellcasters to use Aledrine rush to cast Return life, Arcane Shield, and Haste but they kept TPKing me. I did win eventually. Oh, and I happen to be referring here to one specific encounter, other encounters were doable but harder than in Exile. I don't think we were talking about new players, were we? And what was the result of the experiment?

Your spot on Lilith. At about level ten I think, there's virtually no place you can't go on the world map. You can't beat the Final Gauntlet but you can pretty much go anywhere you feel like. You'll have about a hundred hit points for the fighters and very good weapon skills and the Mages will have a decent amount of energy. Major Blessing can easily be gotten early in the game (Nephil Fortress) that is a major boost to you combat prowess. You also have six pcs instead of four, so that helps. In AEFTP on the other hand, outdoor battles can kill you in one round easily. I mean, there was one outdoor Giant encounter that consistently killed my entire party before I could finish my first turn, and that was when my party was at maximum level.

It was Avernum 1 and it was Lightning Spray to be exact. And there was a party creation spell limit in A1. It was just higher than any of the later games. In Exile you were stuck with the first three spell levels in the beginning no matter what. As regards to Avernum 1, it would depend a lot on if your playing on Torment or Casual. I play on Torment and even the earliest of enemies just dominate you for the first few levels unless you're really careful. On Casual I imagine you can get around to a lot of places early on.

Someone should do a level one challenge for the exile trilogy to see who's right. (Seriously though, I'm going with Slarty on this one. You do hit a point relatively quick where you can handle nearly everything the game throws at you, but that's after gaining several levels. Good luck wandering though the slith temple with a brand new party.)

I wouldn't put too much thought into game economics. If the early game merchants are working a decent paying job selling things for tens of coins, the late game merchants must all be really stinking rich if they're selling stuff worth thousands. And the mages and trainers too, after you offload several times the Castle Treasury into their greedy paws. And that not even to mention that they all have infinite gold to buy your scavenged items. It's a good thing they never ask where you get them from.

Indeed. I seem to recall it actually started out as a suggestion from the fanbase for Geneforge 4. http://pied-piper.ermarian.net/topic/21/2#0 While hunting around the old forum, I found a post where Jeff says explicitly that the Geneforge Saga will get a Remake in few years... Back in 2008. Looks like we still got a couple of years to go, but I fully expect they will come out one day.

To be noted, in second Avernum trilogy there are pyshical barriers stopping progress not technical ones (i.e. Very powerful monsters). Jeff does it that way because much easier to plan battles for the players when you know what their levels are. I'm not sure if he also does it for simpler story telling reasons, but it's certainly possible.

Encumbrance was annoying, but I was always having so much fun when I was younger it didn't bother me. Now it's a little awkward when I play the old games, but its really not so bad. Geneforge 1 had the best setting for the Geneforge saga period. If you can handle the clunkier engine, PLAY IT. It's worth it.

That post is actually kind of fascinating to read, but I'm not sure which part of the post you intended for this discussion. All of it or just the definition of linearity? Because in regard to the actual opening post, I'm not going to say Avadon was worse than the other games just because I felt squashed by the plot. That's your personal choice. I didn't happen to enjoy it as much as the earlier Spiderweb games for that reason but I think the popularity of the game speaks for itself.

You take suggestions? That's cool.I didn't really have any particularly in mind (serious ones anyway. I got plenty of not serious ones I could suggest ). I was just curious. I happen to be using the Paradox theme now (I'll probably rotate through the themes) but what is this IPB theme based off of? What's the picture it uses for all user who don't have their own photo? Edit: Okay, it was driving me crazy so I searched up the image on Tineye. Best I can tell, the photo's is a grayscale image of a blood-elf from WoW. That's kind of random.

Slarty, what about this? Take Avernum 6. It is has a very linear story, you hit the same plot points every time you play. Even if you go for any of the alternate endings, that all happens at very end game. You hit the same plot points up to the end and they play out the same way. Comparing that to Avadon 1. It also has a linear story. You hit the same plot points every time and they play out the same way. Even the alternate ending requires you to hit virtually all the same plot points as the normal ending. In that way, Avernum 6 and Avadon 1 had equally linear stories. The stories vary very little (in game) when you replay them. On the other hand, in Avernum 6 you hit gigantic areas like the eastern gallery and the great cave. Even though you know you have to do X to proceed, you just get plain lost in the hundreds of sidequests. You totally forget your main mission as you spend hours scouring through every dark corner to find hidden caches. When you finally get back to the plot, it almost feels like you chose to further the plot rather than it being forced on you. Avadon 1, on the other hand, does not have huge open areas like Avernum 6. Each area is only accessible via the plot and you constantly have to keep running back to Redbeard to further the plot to get to new areas. There is little straying from the plot for at the end of every area you have to haul yourself back for a talk with Redbeard. There are no vasts areas of unexplored territory to simply lose yourself into. It just feels like you're being yanked here and there at the whim of the plot.

I agree, but that was best way I could describe the way that the newer games feel to me. Spiderweb Software games are still very much Western RPGs and I don't see that changing. I would argue that Avadon is more linear than any of the previous games. I never felt like I could deviate that much from what I was supposed to do.

Okay, I was just playing around with the Forum Themes and I was curious. Who makes these? Is it Jeff or the moderators. Is there some way to suggest new ones? WHO MADE BESTTHEME!? That is like, the most brilliant theme ever, and I don't even watch TV.

Chapter 10: Avernumites! “We’re almsssot out of here,” Sss-Gras hissed as he blocked the sunlight from his eyes with his hand. “Finally,” Gotharr muttered. “Finally,” Cordeila agreed, rolling her eyes. “Just wherre is herre though?” Torth asked. “Wherre’s everryone? Wasn’t this supposed to be a tourrnament? I would’ve thought we’d have rrun into someone already.” “It isss odd,” Sss-Gras nodded. There was a moment of contemplative silence. “Maybe they’re out there, waiting for us?” Cordelia asked as Sss-Gras took a step out into the sunlight. They found themselves in a valley with high walls of stone on either side. “Ridiculousss. We’ve been banging around in there for hours. You’d think they’ve jussst been waiting all that time?” Sss-Gras hissed as he gazed around. Nothing of interest was in sight. “I don’t know, but it is funny we haven’t run into anyone yet,” Cordelia replied. “Hmmm…” Sss-Gras rubbed his chin. “Do you hear something? Gotharr asked. “Maybe we’rre in the wrrong place?” Torth asked. “How could we be in the wrong place?! They placed us here!” Cordelia snapped. “I hear something…” Gotharr muttered. Sss-Gres turned around to face Gotharr. “We just left the cavesss, lay it off already Gotharr.” Gothar flared his nose. He suddenly spun around and pointed upward and cried out, “No! Up there!” “What…” Sss-Gres began to hiss as he raised his eyes upward. He stopped and frowned. There were four Nephilim high on the rocks directly above the entrance to the cave, about twelve feet off the ground. It looked from the direction they faced that they had been descending from higher up. Two of them wore armor, and from the glare of the sun it was easy to tell what was inscribed on the their armor. They also apparently had just noticed them and they too were looking directly at them and their armor. “Avernumite soldiers!” The nephilim shouted as they pointed at them. “Empire!” screamed Cordelia as she pointed at them in turn. In flash, Sss-Gres and his teammates drew their weapons. “Arcane Blow!” Cordelia screamed as she sent four blasts of deadly arcane energy at the four at the imperial soldiers. All four reeled but drew forth their own weapons. “Empirre scum!” Gotharr roared as he let loose bolts into the closest target. One of the Nephilim, drawing his bow, suddenly had a burst of speed at let loose three arrows into Cordelia who screamed out curses. Sss-Gres looked around, but he saw no easy way to get up onto the rocks. He held his halberd up and stood in front of his spellcasters to protect them against enemy attacks. “Arrcane Blow!” Another Nephil roared, sending down a storm of energy on the four of them. “Divine Rrestoration!” Torth yelled, healing the party, at pretty much the same time as the Nephilims Priest cast the same spell. “Arcane Blow!” Cordelia roared again, hit all four again, as another another stuck itself into her. The opposing nephil mage responded by chugging a potion before casting, “Arrcane Shield!” “Divine Retribution!” the Nephil Priest shouted. “Divine Rrestoration!” Torth returned. “Eat this worms!” the Nephil mage shouted, moving faster thanks to his potion. “Fireblast!” The flames came down in torrent, burning them all. Snarling, Cordelia ignored her burns and cast, “Haste!” on her party. The archer, moving impossibly fast, buried two arrows into Torth while drinking down two potions. Then the nephil swordsman, who had been digging around his pack for something, finally surfaced with a wand which he pointed at them. Another stream of fire poured down on their party. Torth grunted, his fur literally aflame. “We’re sssitting ducksss out here! Get back into the cave!” Sss-Gres roared. “Divine Rrestoration,” Torth cired out for the third time, healing most of the parties’ wounds, as he back peddled to the cave. “Fireblast! Back at you scum!” Cordelia shouted, standing firm. Gotharr yelled expelitives as he unleashed the fury of his crossbolt while he backpeddled into the cave. “Into the cave Cordelia!” Sss-Gres shouted as he dashed into the cave, leaving Cordelia exposed. Cordelia complied but not before she got off one last, “Arcane Blow!” which she got rewarded with an arrow straight into her right shoulder. The four of them stood just inside the entrance, their enemies unable to see them from where they stood above the cave entrance. They looked around at each other. “I hate Imperials!” Cordelia spat. ____________________________________________ Sorry, to all of you who read this, that this one took so long. I've been busy. Two points about this chapter. Arcane blow works differently between the later (Rain of Arcane Damage) and the earlier Avernums (Bolts of Arcane Damage). I wanted to point out this distinction through the characters but it felt awkward. Also, how do you get magically healed with the arrows STILL STUCK IN you? Do the games presume your characters yank out the arrows right before a healing mid-battle? Does the spell push the arrows out? Is the healing magic so powerful it just disintegrates the part of the arrow stuck in you? Questions questions questions...

I meant that there's a lot more forced progress in how you play the game. JRPG's typically have a rigid story, dragging you from plot point to plot point. You have to defeat this boss or some other quest to get to the next area. (I actually like this in a way, because the story itself tends be stronger for it as the writers can write an epic story without having to factor in everything the PC may or may not do. But I also like the Exile series exactly because it doesn't do it.) For example, in the Exile series and the first two Geneforges you could basically go anywhere in the gameworld right from the start if you really wanted to and do quests in any order you like. In G3 you had to go through island one to get to island two and so forth, each time having to defeat a certain boss or complete some mission. G4 and G5 are smiliar, with the games being divided into five basic sections that you have to one before the other. A4 A6 and especially A5 string you along through the whole game from area to area. Do X to get permission to go to area Y. Avadon follows basically the same pattern with new areas only opening up after you do X. There is some backtracking, but that tends to be for plot reasons. I'm not saying that Spiderweb games are going to completely JRPG, because they most definitely not, but the rigid storytelling is somewhat similar. I think a false choice is better than no choice only when the games doesn't make you feel like it was a false choice. Otherwise, I just get annoyed at the developer for dangling the option in front of me and jerking it away.