Does Absolute Power Corrupt Absolutely?

[Luca]

That makes sense, but I don't think it would be very popular in a pc game.

 

I would not use a canister for fear of loosing my mind.

If I was in a position of power as a Shaper, then mental clarity would be paramount.

[Lifecrafterandnoobeditor]

True, people wouldnt like being forced to kill themselves but what if you werent in a position of power? would you use the canisters to create a position of power for yourself?

[Luca]

If I was not in a position of power and could not get into a position of power, which would take several years to convince myself that it was hopeless. Then I suppose I would use one to see if it was worth it and by that time I would start to go slowly insane and try and find 30 000 more.

 

But I would have thought this far ahead by then seeing as though it would take be a few years to get this desperate.

Thus I do not think I would.

[Feo Takahari]

I'd take one, then never another. (The one would be an Endurance canister--I'm the second-frailest person I know, and the frailest has seven different genetic syndromes.)

[Sleeping Dragon]

How very practical. Makes me imagine what would happen if canisters existed in this world, with the Supreme Court arguing over legalizing medicinal canister use. You'd probably have to go to Singapore.

[Luca]

I'm sure they would be in the same class as crack.

[Shaper Anton]

Power should be gain by "natural" ways.

Training, learning and trusting the ways of the shapers are all the things that make us strong!

 

Besides, you could easily upset the balance of power by useing canister, there is no limit on what you can achive with canisters.

[Lifecrafterandnoobeditor]

i say, SCREW THE SHAPER WAY. i like having instant power without learning it, its like getting a 100 on a test without being the class and no, I think they would make a bigger crackdown on canisters then crack, because crack doesnt let you throw fireballs or make drayks.....

[Xelgion]

If this sprouts into a flame war RP, I will be the happiest person on the planet.

[Luca]

Originally Posted By: Lifecrafterandnoobeditor

i say, SCREW THE SHAPER WAY. i like having instant power without learning it, its like getting a 100 on a test without being the class and no, I think they would make a bigger crackdown on canisters then crack, because crack doesnt let you throw fireballs or make drayks.....

 

All I said was they would be in the same class, Addictive and makes people go loopilitious.

[Sudanna]

Only canisters would also be a weapon. A very dangerous, undetectable weapon. They would definitely be illegal. To suddenly be able to lob a fireball at your local political figure during a speech? With no way to detect the ability or lack of the ability to do so? And ANYONE has access to such a thing? Of course they'll be illegal, and much more so.

 

Oh, Lifecrafter, that is exactly why Nalyd is against canisters- it's not that power is bad, it's that you didn't earn that power. You wouldn't gain a respect for the power you wield, you wouldn't know the dangers or limitations. Think of a time you've been very angry at someone. If you were more mentally unstable, and could shoot lightning, what would happen?

[Xelgion]

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd

you didn't earn that power.

If you were more mentally unstable,

Heres what happens.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

...To suddenly be able to lob a fireball at your local political figure during a speech? With no way to detect the ability or lack of the ability to do so? And ANYONE has access to such a thing?...

If anyone could lob a fireball, security measures would evolve to take that into account.

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

Anyone can- not everyone can.

[Dikiyoba]

What's your point? There are metal detectors in courthouses that everyone has to walk through, despite the fact that not everyone tries to sneak a gun in.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

Well, for one, it'd be rather hard to give a public speech in a fire-retardant bubble. It's as if you had to defend against a grenade lobbed at your head- only there's no way to tell who has the grenade. And Nalyd somehow doubts that a genetic analysis extensive and quick enough to look for signs of canister usage will be developed.

 

Basically, how would security measures evolve? You can only be so safe while still actually being there.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd

Well, for one, it'd be rather hard to give a public speech in a fire-retardant bubble. It's as if you had to defend against a grenade lobbed at your head- only there's no way to tell who has the grenade. And Nalyd somehow doubts that a genetic analysis extensive and quick enough to look for signs of canister usage will be developed.

Canister usage makes you glow. That seems like an easy thing to spot.

[Nioca]

Not immediately. It requires a few canister uses first, which means that an assassin could very well use a firebolt canister and gain the ability to launch fireballs without others being any the wiser.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

Basically, how would security measures evolve? You can only be so safe while still actually being there.

Dikiyoba would imagine some measures are already in place, since people can already learn how to cast fireballs illegally if they have the money to bribe a mage or smuggle a spellbook.

[Sudanna]

Both of which are very highly regulated, and that regulation is the security measure.

[Ghaldring]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

Basically, how would security measures evolve? You can only be so safe while still actually being there.

Dikiyoba would imagine some measures are already in place, since people can already learn how to cast fireballs illegally if they have the money to bribe a mage or smuggle a spellbook.

Or they could just slip poison in your food, or smuggle in a fiery wand, or get a servile to stick a dagger in your back.

If someone really wants to do you in, they generally will.

[Ghaldring]

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd

Both of which are very highly regulated, and that regulation is the security measure.

If citizens want to shape their own genome, why should the Shapers be entitled to prevent them from doing so?

What did Benjamin Franklin once say? "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Sudanna]

Without that little safety, liberty will soon disappear.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

If someone really wants to do you in, they generally will.

Something similar was famously said by Abraham Lincoln. How right he was.

Still, if a servile sticks a knife in your back, it would probably only do a couple of hit points in damage. You'd be fine.

[Ghaldring]

That's usually the justification authoritarians use when censoring, imprisoning and murdering their own citizens. Forgive me if I'm skeptical, it sounds like just a lot of weasel wording.

 

I'd argue that the world is less safe when a totalitarian Shaper government can exert deadly force to kill citizens for simply engaging in self-experimentation, than if a few canister-deranged trouble makers were running about torching stuff.

 

Monarch may have caused some havoc, but he wasn't the one who engaged in the wholesale slaughter of an entire race. The devastation he caused also pales in comparison to that inflicted by the Shapers in order to retain control over Terrestria.

[Sudanna]

Well, it is a valid statement, though easily twisted to unwholesome ends.

 

Umm. . . Those canister-deranged trouble makers would probably also be running things. If the Shapers aren't, and if there are canister-users, then the canister-users have a vacuum to fill.

 

The attempted slaughter of an entire race was a regrettable but necessary action on the part of the Shapers. Nalyd personally wouldn't have done it, but from the Shaper point of view, it was entirely necessary. And not without justification.

 

Look at how much chaos that Monarch, one canister-user, caused. How many Shapers did it take to devastate Terrestria?

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

I'd argue that the world is less safe when a totalitarian Shaper government can exert deadly force to kill citizens for simply engaging in self-experimentation, than if a few canister-deranged trouble makers were running about torching stuff.

But canister usage does more than that. It also inspires megalomania and a strong desire for more power. So instead of having a slightly stable totalitarian government, we'd have a completely unstable totalitarian dictatorship.

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Monarch may have caused some havoc

If bringing a sixth of a continent to it's knees and holding it against large numbers of combined Shaper and Rebel forces is "some havoc", I'd hate to see what qualifies as total chaos. By that reckoning, the Rebellion is just a bit of rabble-rousing.

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The devastation he caused also pales in comparison to that inflicted by the Shapers in order to retain control over Terrestria.

Which in turn pales when compared to the damage inflicted by the Rebels in order to gain control over Terrestria.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: Nioca

But canister usage does more than that. It also inspires megalomania and a strong desire for more power. So instead of having a slightly stable totalitarian government, we'd have a completely unstable totalitarian dictatorship.

Agreed. Perhaps if everyone had access to canisters, there'd be balance. After all, the canister users have respect for each other

But, you're right. Except, they wouldn't be able to work together, so you'd have unstable totatlitatiand dictatorshipS, ruled by warlords constantly fighting for domination.

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If bringing a sixth of a continent to it's knees and holding it against large numbers of combined Shaper and Rebel forces is "some havoc", I'd hate to see what qualifies as total chaos. By that reckoning, the Rebellion is just a bit of rabble-rousing.

This "sixth of a continent" also happens to consist of one town for which people would have their knees brought down, and a whole lot of unpassable swamp. Hardly as impressive as taking down a real province.

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Which in turn pales when compared to the damage inflicted by the Rebels in order to gain control over Terrestria.

Assuming they unleash the Unbound. Which they probably will.

But also assuming that the Shapers won't do the equivalent... Which they do, canonically.

[Sudanna]

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This "sixth of a continent" also happens to consist of one town for which people would have their knees brought down, and a whole lot of unpassable swamp. Hardly as impressive as taking down a real province.

He effectively held off the forces of the Shapers and the Rebels, who had more or less allied against him. And he probably could have continued to do so indefinitely, had not the PC come along.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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But canister usage does more than that. It also inspires megalomania and a strong desire for more power. So instead of having a slightly stable totalitarian government, we'd have a completely unstable totalitarian dictatorship.

 

Conjecture. There have been serial canister users who did not feel it necessary to establish a totalitarian dictatorship. Off the top of my head: Lilita, Phariton, and the Shaper in the Awakened Core Complex (Geneforge 2).

 

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If bringing a sixth of a continent to it's knees

 

A sixth?

 

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and holding it against large numbers of combined Shaper and Rebel forces is "some havoc",

 

Monarch was able to hold such a large area primarily because he used a Control Baton, not because he guzzled canisters. Any non-canister altered Shaper could use the same technique. Even a regular non-Shaper could probably use a similar technique by breeding pre-existing creations.

 

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I'd hate to see what qualifies as total chaos. By that reckoning, the Rebellion is just a bit of rabble-rousing.

 

The Shaper-Rebel war has caused far more devastation than Monarch. Remember, the Rebels captured Dhonal's Isle and Eastern Terrestia, until the Shapers retaliated.

 

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Which in turn pales when compared to the damage inflicted by the Rebels in order to gain control over Terrestria.

 

We must be playing different games. Because from what I've seen, the Rebellion is a direct response to the highly authoritarian, repressive, and genocidal Shaper regime.

[Sudanna]

Litalia is a very unique case- unlike most canister users, she realized that her humanity was slipping away and trained herself to regain it. Even so, she is less that stable.

 

Did you talk to the Awakened Core Complex Shaper? He was rather completely consumed by power lust.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Nioca:

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But canister usage does more than that. It also inspires megalomania and a strong desire for more power. So instead of having a slightly stable totalitarian government, we'd have a completely unstable totalitarian dictatorship.

Conjecture. There have been serial canister users who did not feel it necessary to establish a totalitarian dictatorship. Off the top of my head: Lilita, Phariton, and the Shaper in the Awakened Core Complex (Geneforge 2).

There are also several that have felt it necessary. Your PC from GF1 and Monarch are both examples.

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and holding it against large numbers of combined Shaper and Rebel forces is "some havoc",

Monarch was able to hold such a large area primarily because he used a Control Baton, not because he guzzled canisters. Any non-canister altered Shaper could use the same technique. Even a regular non-Shaper could probably use a similar technique by breeding pre-existing creations.

First off, breeding pre-existing creations wouldn't come even close to being able to form a constantly regenerating army of monsters like Monarch had. And furthermore, while the Control Baton factored into it, Monarch was able to hold the Shaper and Rebel armies off because he was the shaping equivalent of a mini-gun: He was shaping massive hordes of creations and throwing them wildly into the wind.

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I'd hate to see what qualifies as total chaos. By that reckoning, the Rebellion is just a bit of rabble-rousing.

The Shaper-Rebel war has caused far more devastation than Monarch. Remember, the Rebels captured Dhonal's Isle and Eastern Terrestia, until the Shapers retaliated.

I exaggerate for effect. Sue me.

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Which in turn pales when compared to the damage inflicted by the Rebels in order to gain control over Terrestria.

We must be playing different games. Because from what I've seen, the Rebellion is a direct response to the highly authoritarian, repressive, and genocidal Shaper regime.

...What?

No, seriously. This wasn't a question of Rebel morals here. It was a point-blank statement regarding the amount of damage the Rebels have done to Terrestria.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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There are also several that have felt it necessary. Your PC from GF1

 

Not really. In the ending where you use and then destroy the Geneforge, your PC retreats into the wilderness. They make no real attempt to use force to establish rule over pre-existing civilizations.

 

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and Monarch are both examples.

 

Was Monarch trying to rule over anyone? Not really, he just liked to cause havoc, although I don't really remember what his motives were.

 

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First off, breeding pre-existing creations wouldn't come even close to being able to form a constantly regenerating army of monsters like Monarch had.

 

It depends on the reproduction rate of the creation. But I agree that it is far easier to create swarms of Creations if you can Shape.

 

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And furthermore, while the Control Baton factored into it,

 

'Factored into it'? Um, no, the Control Baton was crucial in order for Monarch's tactic of 'release swarms of uncontrollable creations' to work. Otherwise they would have just turned on him and eaten him. That's precisely why Shapers don't like to make hordes of Creations.

 

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Monarch was able to hold the Shaper and Rebel armies off because he was the shaping equivalent of a mini-gun: He was shaping massive hordes of creations and throwing them wildly into the wind.

 

Which can be achieved by anyone who can Shape. The Rebel ending for Geneforge 4 makes it very clear that non-canister augmented Shapers can indeed Shape lots of uncontrollable creations, they just choose not to. Unless they really have to, that is.

 

So perhaps instead of banning canisters, the Shapers should ban Control Batons? Or maybe just ban Shaping outright? Are you a Trakovite?

 

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..What?

 

No, seriously. This wasn't a question of Rebel morals here. It was a point-blank statement regarding the amount of damage the Rebels have done to Terrestria.

 

And I'm pointing out that the Rebellion exist precisely because of the highly authoritarian Shaper regime. The tight controls instituted by the Shaper government has led to reactionary groups such as the Awakened, the Takers, and the Rebellion.

[Ghaldring]

Originally Posted By: Yelbis Eceer Nalyd

Litalia is a very unique case-

Wait, so you admit that there is variation in temperament amongst canister users? One can use canisters without automatically becoming an immediate threat to innocents?

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unlike most canister users, she realized that her humanity was slipping away and trained herself to regain it. Even so, she is less that stable.

'Less than stable' is a rather arbitrary term.

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Did you talk to the Awakened Core Complex Shaper? He was rather completely consumed by power lust.

He was engrossed in his research, not going around torching villages and creating hordes of uncontrollable creations.

[Nioca]

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And furthermore, while the Control Baton factored into it,

'Factored into it'? Um, no, the Control Baton was crucial in order for Monarch's tactic of 'release swarms of uncontrollable creations' to work.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that for the 'releases swarms' tactic to work, you need to actually have swarms to release. And while the Control Baton was important, by itself, it would have been useless.

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Monarch was able to hold the Shaper and Rebel armies off because he was the shaping equivalent of a mini-gun: He was shaping massive hordes of creations and throwing them wildly into the wind.

Which can be achieved by anyone who can Shape. The Rebel ending for Geneforge 4 makes it very clear that non-canister augmented Shapers can indeed Shape lots of uncontrollable creations, they just choose not to. Unless they really have to, that is.

So perhaps instead of banning canisters, the Shapers should ban Control Batons? Or maybe just ban Shaping outright? Are you a Trakovite?

Why don't we just ban Humans and Drakons, and be done with it? The problem doesn't necessarily lie with canisters, batons, and shaping, but with how it's used. Hence, the original topic.

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..What?

No, seriously. This wasn't a question of Rebel morals here. It was a point-blank statement regarding the amount of damage the Rebels have done to Terrestria.

And I'm pointing out that the Rebellion exist precisely because of the highly authoritarian Shaper regime. The tight controls instituted by the Shaper government has led to reactionary groups such as the Awakened, the Takers, and the Rebellion.

It's clearly god's fault; he created sentience in the first place.

But instead of playing the blame game, let's call a spade a spade. The rebels did a lot of damage in their take-over attempt. The Shapers did a lot of damage repelling it. Those are the facts. And in interest of not going into a debate that nobody wins, I'm going to drop this and suggest you do that same.

[Ghaldring]

Nioca:

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You're missing my point. I'm saying that for the 'releases swarms' tactic to work, you need to actually have swarms to release. And while the Control Baton was important, by itself, it would have been useless.

 

And you're missing my point. I'm saying that one doesn't need to use canisters in order to create swarms of creations, nor does one need canisters to prevent these swarms from attacking you.

 

What you do need is a Control Rod.

 

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Why don't we just ban Humans and Drakons, and be done with it?

 

Exactly? Why single out canisters for negative attention, when one can wreak just as much (if not more) havoc with a Control Rod and a little bit of Shaping skill?

 

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But instead of playing the blame game, let's call a spade a spade.

 

I am calling a spade a spade by pointing out cause and effect. The Rebellion is a direct response to an authoritarian regime.

 

The Rebels are responsible for their own actions. However, the very act of Rebellion is indeed justified, and indeed inevitable, when the Shapers rule as they do. The Shapers, like the Empire, create enemies with their dracionian policies. Then they scratch their heads in bemusement when these policies come back to bite them.

 

This isn't about blame. It's about a simple analysis of cause and effect. Where authoritarian and repressive regimes exist, rebellion will exist. When authoritarian and repressive regimes no longer exist to coerce individuals with violence, rebellion will no longer exist.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

This isn't about blame. It's about a simple analysis of cause and effect. Where authoritarian and repressive regimes exist, rebellion will exist. When authoritarian and repressive regimes no longer exist to coerce individuals with violence, rebellion will no longer exist.

Are you honestly claiming that nobody has ever rebelled against a just government?

[Feo Takahari]

Always a bad sign when a seemingly dead topic gets 23 posts between lunch and evening . . .

 

Myself, I would argue that the variation between who goes nuts and who doesn't seems to be based on pre-existing personality as well as how many canisters you've used. (That is to say, the nuttiest canister-users seem to be the ones who were never particularly sane to begin with, and the canister-users who stay highly sane, like that muscle-bound female guard in Rising in G2, are the ones who seem to have been naturally stable.) Assuming strong regulation and the capability to determine how many canisters an individual can safely use, the technology is not a total danger. That said, some sort of regulation--Shaper or rebel--would be needed to prevent the creation of monsters like Monarch, and the more banal insanity of the other non-generic guard in Rising (the one who attacks you if you say he's not a Guardian.) At a guess, additional rules beyond those required to maintain canister-users' sanity would be similar to the regulations determining who gets to learn how to make fireballs the "old-fashioned" way.

 

P.S. Myself, I favor making fireballs the even older-fashioned way. It's a matter of what you stick in the microwave for five minutes . . .

[Ghaldring]

Just government is an oxymoron. Governments by their very nature are repressive and authoritarian, although some more so than others. I'd rather live in a relatively progressive democratic society that pays some regard to individual rights, than a theocratic hellhole where you can be executed for holding heretical religious beliefs.

 

The less intrusive and authoritarian a government, the lower the desire to rebel against it is. The absence of a government = no need to rebel, since you've got nothing to rebel against.

[Ghaldring]

feo:

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Myself, I would argue that the variation between who goes nuts and who doesn't seems to be based on pre-existing personality as well as how many canisters you've used.

 

Precisely. Canisters are remarkably similar to alcohol, except that alcohol doesn't grant you superhuman powers. Unless it is mixed with Red Bull.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring

Just government is an oxymoron. Governments by their very nature are repressive and authoritarian, although some more so than others. I'd rather live in a relatively progressive democratic society that pays some regard to individual rights, than a theocratic hellhole where you can be executed for holding heretical religious beliefs.

The less intrusive and authoritarian a government, the lower the desire to rebel against it is. The absence of a government = no need to rebel, since you've got nothing to rebel against.

Oh, you.

[Luca]

I guess I'm behind...too bad I don't care.

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

Well, for one, it'd be rather hard to give a public speech in a fire-retardant bubble. It's as if you had to defend against a grenade lobbed at your head- only there's no way to tell who has the grenade. And Nalyd somehow doubts that a genetic analysis extensive and quick enough to look for signs of canister usage will be developed.

Every person listening to that political speech who has had magic training would have the ability to throw said fireballs. Is the only way to regulate this to ban all people with any training that would be used against the speaker..?

 

Canisters do not allow the ability to assassinate political figures they only aid them.

 

Then again in Geneforge a political figure would most probably be a shaper, with the ability to neutralize most any incoming fire relatively quickly.

[Sudanna]

Geneforge has hit points- fireballs are survivable. Realistically, even Firebolt would likely kill you.

 

It takes years of training to gain "Just a little bit of Shaping skill". Like, enough to Shape a worm.

 

Hypothetically, you don't really need a Control Rod to make sure uncontrolled hordes of creations don't kill you. You could just Shape them into a pit or on the far side of a cliff face. You need the Control Rod if you're going to have those creations near you, but you could have just a few controlled creations for bodyguard purposes.

[Lifecrafterandnoobeditor]

true, but canisters are more dangerous, and loopilitious? is that a word? lol

[Xelgion]

Lol isn't a word, so clamp it.

[Lifecrafterandnoobeditor]

clamp it? somebodys confused now? .... crack+canisters= someone throwing fireballs to rob people? BAN CANISTERS from everyone but me....

[Luca]

I was told to, among other things, be more cynical geniusy and sarcastic.....And adept at coining new words....

[Xelgion]

Hey, House started off as Berty Wooster. You got time.

[Luca]

yeah, great.

[Lifecrafterandnoobeditor]

...Your confusing me?