Jump to content


The Gazers' right to exist

Gazers Gazer Eyebeast

  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic
alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 26 October 2016 - 09:03 AM #36 The Gazers' right to exist

Quote

we don't use 2-year old intelligence retarded human in experiments, or young kids I guess, what gives you the right to use dogs?
I'm against using dogs for experiments despite the dog-hating Owen's mad schemes.
"we actually made them stupid so that they can be loyal,"
We didn't make them stupid, we made them domesticated. Many dog breeds are smarter than wolves I think.

"Tell me again that they can't make decisions for themselves and they don't deserve to be free at all." They are not sentient so I don't find it bad to control their fate... as long as we don't kill them or harm them for fun. There are laws in most places (at least in the west) that put strong penalties on those harming dogs and I agree with those laws.

"servile is not human" Serviles are lesser than humans, but serviles are sentient. Hence, they should be free.

Quote

Actually… NO. That's not what happened.
I have a very, very different view on what actually happened. For starters, women were respected 6000-7000 years ago. Then it was male-dominated societies. Then women rights started to be discussed by some "weirdos" in the enlightment, and it was seriously seen as an issue in the late 19th century.
So the "things changed to the worse" can't apply here, because there was a pause of several millenia between those two states.

"No, they just try to make things right again"
Right according to us. I'm pretty sure there are tons of philosophers that could defend why a male-dominated society is better much better than we can defend that's not the case. Again, it comes down to cultural and society opinion. I have several female friends that say "women are below men" and they are angry at feminists for trying to upset the "right" balance. They're too young to have old daughters, but those that have (1-3 years old) daughters show them through example that the woman's place is next to her husband.
And I'm talking about women that have finished universities here. One has a MSc degree. She didn't go for a PhD because she believes the husband should be more educated than the woman, although she had an offer of a PhD candidancy. Her boyfriend, a man with a MSc looking for a PhD told her to go for it, that it would be insane to drop her future because of antiquated beliefs. She disagreed.
[Skipping the whole part about the AI, didn't find the 5-6 words that I read interesting]

Quote

Even with geneforge, serviles can't use it.
Wait, what?!?
But Footracer (servile) can Shape and the player can take a geneforged servile that can shape!

Quote

I think its not much a matter of time than of mental exhaustion.
It's never a matter of mental exhaustion when it comes to defending the rebellion!

Quote

The pride and standard bearer of the rebellion.
Weeeeeeell... at least in theory I agree that a Rebellion had to happen and all. But the Rebels do a lot of bad things and so far in GF3, playing the game, I haven't found myself in the side of the Rebels quest-wise. Sure I answer "No, we shouldn't work serviles to death because a Shaper requires more crystals". But I haven't been impressed by the madwoman that killed my defenseless friends and the professor that betrayed them to join them...

Quote

Oh, surely I didn't beat him, he just has better things to do and needs a break from this mental taxing debate.
Never mentally taxing to defend the rebellion! And yeap, not beaten. Just other things to do.
"Personally, I never really experienced mental exhaustion."
Show-off! Your Shaper buddies would vivisect you. Then heal you from the brink of death to vivisect you again the next day. That's what we fighting to stop buddy. Well, not Litalia. She was the worst from the people that removed the control tool. "Try to remain still. You'll be in horrible pain but if you move too much, you'll die." :/

Quote

I don't think dogs are much dumber than wolves.
I think they're smarter... Not sure, but around here, wolves are considered dumb and dogs smart.

Quote

Finally personally im ok with stop breeding dogs. Less devil's spawn to annoy me. But is it right to enforce the extinction of a whole species? We made them and as such are responsible for them we don't just get to choose out of it. Its the same as having a kid and kicking them out. Worse even.
Also oh just let me celebrate alhoon's temporary defeat. Don't ruin this for me.
Welcome to the Rebellion. I see that you start to realize why it's wrong to wipe out Gazers\dogs\Drakons\Drayks.
And nah, not having the time to post is not the same as defeat. It's "pause" in the battle, not retreat.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 26 October 2016 - 09:21 AM #37 The Gazers' right to exist

Quote

Actually they are, based on some experiments, where stray/wild dogs do a lot better in tests than pet dogs. Which means, you keep them home, they grow stupid, you leave them out there, they become smart. Sounds like serviles to me.
So... the tests are evidently wrong, since they measure not actual animal-intelligence but the problem-solving abilities of dogs. Of course dogs that have it hard would have "trained" themselves to survive in the wild, but that doesn't make them smarter, it makes them better trained for the task-at-hand.
Also, natural selection would pretty quickly cut through the dogs that are really stupid \ unable to adapt to living in the wild.

Quote

Which is a good thing. Because you can't have everyone's needs satisfied without people worrying about whether it's good or not.
It's a bad thing. People should care more about what's good and right than what satisfies their needs. The people that were fighting for my freedom 80 years before were putting "it's right to defend the country" above their personal needs of "not getting shot". And I'm grateful for that and honor their decision.

Quote

shapers learn to make stupid serviles who have no free will, like in G4.
They didn't make serviles without free will in GF4. They made more stupid serviles and more loyal serviles. They didn't eliminate free will.

However, if they did manage to make serviles without free will and sentience, and allowed the free willed serviles to "phase out" without any "drastic" measures...
The rebellion should still have happened and would still have happened eventually. Even if the Shapers stopped making anything other than Fyoras, Artilae, worms, Kyshaaks, ornks and clawbugs, the rebellion would happen. Why?
Because the Shapers were opressive and dictatorial, treating even normal people as a resource. The Shapers decided arbitarily on who was loyal enough to learn what spells. And we have in GF5 that loyal, talented spellcaster that has her requests for more spells turned down on the whims of Shaper Mazran (the Shaper breaking a few dozen shaper laws by making control minds that can shape and giving them command of whole creation batallions instead of immediately turning on Alwan and forcing him to surrender his post as a councilor for losing his mind).
And we have the examples of far less loyal mages that get spells because other Shapers are less jealous of the magical potential of the people unlucky enough to be under the boot of the wrong Shaper.

I talked to that woman (forget her name, the mage in a Fort). She was in tears when her request was rejected. She wouldn't betray the Shapers. She would still remain in the front lines, fighting, cleaning the lab for passing Shapers to use and not doing her own research on the side (like that guy holed up behind a dozen+ pylons).
I am not sure if my leadership wasn't high enough at the time, but I couldn't sway her loyalty even at the face of pure injustice.

So, no. Down with the tyrannical Shaper Magocracy. It's not just the liberation of Serviles or defending the right of Drayks to not be killed on sight. It's also about the humans that are reduced to Shaper boot-lickers.

Quote

It'll lead to a very peaceful world without freewill beings being enslaved
Here's something I disagree with both you and the Rebellion: The end doesn't justify the means.


And that's my 2 1/2 posts for the time.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

Citizen

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,684
  • 23 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 01:28 AM #38 The Gazers' right to exist

Quote

There's no rule against being wordy. On the other hand, you've pretty much admitted to intentionally provocative posting in a way that borders on trolling, which we do discourage here. I haven't stepped in because people seem to be enjoying the discussion so far and nobody seems to be too upset about it, but try not to rile each other up too much in future.
Borderline walking is indeed what I'm abusing here, apologise for the trouble I've caused. I have no intention to cross the line, but I probably won't stop it completely until the fun part for both sides isn't worth it any more. Btw, thank you very much for taking time to tell me this, dear moderator. :D

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 02:12 AM #39 The Gazers' right to exist

I haven't seen you trolling. What you call "provocative posting" I would call "challenging the common-held personal perception".
And there are instructions of "one post" and I continuously break it, because my answers are huge. So, no, if someone's breaking decorum here for long posts, it's not you, it's me.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

Citizen

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,684
  • 23 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 04:28 AM #40 The Gazers' right to exist

One most important thing here: dogs are sentient. Owenmoz pointed out that we use mirror test to test animal sentience. And I pointed out that dogs look into the mirror and understand "this is me in mirror" and will be angry if you shave them too much. By definition, they are indeed sentient. Or, if you still think this is what minority thinks, how about this thing I found on wikipedia:

"In 1997 the concept of animal sentience was written into the basic law of the European Union. The legally binding protocol annexed to the Treaty of Amsterdam recognizes that animals are "sentient beings", and requires the EU and its member states to "pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals"."

Even back in 1997 we see them as sentient beings, man, law and morality alike. You're in 2016 now, aren't you?

So look back on most of what you've written, and then we can decide whether serviles can have freedom later. Maybe you'll go be a fighter for dogs instead, who knows?

"But Footracer (servile) can Shape and the player can take a geneforged servile that can shape!"
Footracer is a good example, too bad that she can only shape using a machine and implant tool. You break it and everything breaks. Suffice to say the machine+tool can shape, not her. As for player, it kinda contradicts with what we're taught otherwise, so if I stick to my "there's only one real player and all other options are just fake choices that doesn't happen in real history" theory, it sounds more true for everything else. Because really; if serviles really can shape, how come you can't find any other more reliable examples? They're dying to learn magic, if they can learn to shape, many more will do so.

"Show-off! Your Shaper buddies would vivisect you"
Come on then! If I'm in geneforge world I might already be working in council, judging from how understanding I am for the shaper cause. Let's see who dare to do it to me XD Otherwise, I'd just stay quiet about my own situation, smart if you ask me.
"Well, not Litalia. She was the worst from the people that removed the control tool"
The worst is Ghardring side, where the drakon scientist care more about the control tool than you…

"They didn't make serviles without free will in GF4. They made more stupid serviles and more loyal serviles. They didn't eliminate free will"
You didn't see it first hand in G4, but in G5 you can see serviles who are smart enough to just breathe and work. Now tell me: Do those have free will?
(Edit: Oh wait! In G4, monarch does that. His serviles are nothing more than machines. Do they have free will, then?)
"The rebellion should still have happened""Because the Shapers were opressive and dictatorial"
Are you sure? You didn't play G1 and G2 so let me tell you a fact: Shapers changed a lot between Sucia science breakthrough and Sucia rediscovery 200 years later, and lots of their rules changed in the meantime, resulting in a looooot of welfare and better understanding. What makes you think they can't change more, if you just leave them be? People on the inside fight against injustice/inefficiency themselves, which results in things getting better, we really don't need other species like selfish drakons to do it in the name of freedom.

"It's also about the humans that are reduced to Shaper boot-lickers"
As I say, this will not change without geneforge's help. Which proves my point: if you can't have the power to be equal, you can't be equal. Equal or not, it depends on how much power you have that cannot be shaken. Power determines. Even in new Sucia you'll have people hoarding shaping power and shaping rights (because they eventually agree it's the way to be!), new tyranny grows, cycle repeats. And you can't do a thing to prevent it. You say rebellion is inevitable, and I say tyranny is inevitable too, doesn't this fact gives it rights to exist?

"I talked to that woman (forget her name, the mage in a Fort). She was in tears when her request was rejected"
"I am not sure if my leadership wasn't high enough at the time, but I couldn't sway her loyalty even at the face of pure injustice."
You probably can't, I cheat in my games and have 30 leadership. I can't do it either, as far as I remember.
Btw, you do realise that they only need her to be able to keep her cool? She was always rejected because she's a very emotional person. And shaping + emotional = very bad in the long run. You're willing to let us create an unstable shaper, so that later you can blame it on us that we shapers can't do things right?

Edit:
"It'll lead to a very peaceful world without freewill beings being enslaved
Here's something I disagree with both you and the Rebellion: The end doesn't justify the means."
If you really believes in that, how come you choose to kill a few and save more, in the train question? If the end doesn't justify the means, you will not push him off at all, right? It's important that you stay true to your own words.

"I haven't seen you trolling. What you call "provocative posting" I would call "challenging the common-held personal perception""
Oh! Oh thank you. It's just, many people don't take it well when their views are challenged, and I find it a reasonable reaction. I can go at a much more mild way but I choose not to, so I think it's fair if I take a bit of responsibility for it here. :D As for the length, well, I guess we just can't help it when there's so much to discuss… :D

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:05 AM #41 The Gazers' right to exist

"One most important thing here: dogs are sentient. "
Nah, they're not. Most actually fail the mirror test which is not good enough for me. Few very smart dogs do... and the majority of elephants.


"The legally binding protocol annexed to the Treaty of Amsterdam recognizes that animals are "sentient beings", and requires the EU and its member states to "pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals"."
O_O That's news to me.
Amsterdam's Treaty is wrong then. Unless by sentient they mean something else. Not to mention, that if animals are considered sentient, we should be killing them for food. Which we do.

"So look back on most of what you've written, and then we can decide whether serviles can have freedom later. Maybe you'll go be a fighter for dogs instead, who knows?"
Serviles are sentient, dogs are not whatever people that wrote the Amsterdam treaty think.


Monarch's serviles: Right! I've forgot about those poor creatures. Nope, those don't count as sentient, these were your dream of living tools with legs. They were very disturbing because their form was close to humans. But I would find  Alphas and Thands more sentient than these.

Quote

"Well, not Litalia. She was the worst from the people that removed the control tool"
The worst is Ghardring side, where the drakon scientist care more about the control tool than you…
I believe that Litalia's attitude was the worse. I can't blame the drakon lifecrafter for being interested in the control tool. His bed-side manner was nearly as bad as Litalia's but Litalia had slightly worse bed-side manner and... she's not a Drakon.

Quote

What makes you think they can't change more, if you just leave them be? People on the inside fight against injustice/inefficiency themselves, which results in things getting better, we really don't need other species like selfish drakons to do it in the name of freedom.
Perhaps they would. However, if it took the Roman Republic\Empire 300 years to put a law that you shouldn't just kill your slaves, and 1400 years after that for slavery to be challenged by the majority of learned and progressive enlighted scholars and 250 years after that for slavery to start being abolished around Europe and then 100 years for it to be abolished in the USA...
I would prefer the Drakons doing it. However: The not-so-small problem here is the most powerful Drakons didn't have any interest to do that. Ghaldring says so himself in the "The time of the Serviles will never come". OK, they would not have serviles as slaves... but they would be 2nd-class like humans in the Shaper Empire. No thanks. I'll stick with Greta and Astoria.
But even elevating them from slaves to 2nd-class is better than what the Shapers are doing.

On a similar note: Slavery would have eventually be abolished in USA with time. Still, I'm sure that a lot of black people are\were happy that they were liberated by their masters dying violently. Despite some of the Union's forces doing their fair share of warcrimes.

"She was always rejected because she's a very emotional person. "
That was the lame excuse. Worse than her have been elevated. And at the very least, Mazdan shouldn't troll her with rejecting her learning magic even if he thought she was "too emotional" for Shaping.

Quote

As I say, this will not change without geneforge's help. Which proves my point: if you can't have the power to be equal, you can't be equal. Equal or not, it depends on how much power you have that cannot be shaken. Power determines. Even in new Sucia you'll have people hoarding shaping power and shaping rights (because they eventually agree it's the way to be!), new tyranny grows, cycle repeats. And you can't do a thing to prevent it. You say rebellion is inevitable, and I say tyranny is inevitable too, doesn't this fact gives it rights to exist?
Interesting. I'm lucky enough to be from the area that realized this first. At first, in the 6th century BC we thought that giving the "good" people power would lead to better society. Well, it ended up with the good people being either not so good after all, or handing the power to their kids (because which parent except Taygen doesn't want the best for his kids?) and people disagreeing what actually was "good" people.
And then, we more or less said "#### it. Everyone* will have power". And thus democracy was formed. Because we realized more or less what you said... and we found the solution.
So did the rebellion. The Shapers thinks they're oh-so-mighty? Grab the dirt-digging peasant, teach him a few rudimentary things about morality and responsibility to one's creations and give him the power of a Shaper. Now the Shaper has the same potential with the former dirt-digger.
*Males, citizens of Athens.

"You're willing to let us create an unstable shaper"
Moseh. Shaftoe. Taygen. Litalia. Monarch. Rawal.
The list is big already. At least that woman while showing some reasonable emotion (not breaking things, just tearing up) when her dreams were against squashed underfoot by the same people that wanted her risking her life without utilizing her full magical potential and serve as a lab cleaner, is proven to be loyal to a fault to the Shapers. She should have joined the Rebellion and get the respect her talents deserved. No Shaper-made ceilings. Go for Godhood if you can manage it (better avoid it; Litalia ended up completely mad).
Remember that Shaper in Harmony island in GF3? (I'm there). He's as emotional as that mage and yet, he became an ineffective, whiny Shaper.

Quote

The end doesn't justify the means
"If you really believes in that, how come you choose to kill a few and save more, in the train question? "
Because the question was not "kill a few to save more". It was "kill many" or "kill few to save more". There was never an option of "not killing anyone".
I did a lot of bad things in the service of the rebellion. I also did a lot of bad things playing the Shaper endings against the Rebellion. There's no clearly good side. There are two bad sides. One side fights dirty to preserve their tyranny, keep sentient creatures enslaved and genocide things that disagree with them and the other side fights dirty to liberate slaves and for the right to exist of creatures that disagree with the first side (and some of them to establish their own tyranny).

Do you know what was the most difficult quest for me in GF5? Ghaldring's quest to kill Astoria. A rebel-friendly Astoria that considered me a friend and ally. Astoria that was letting Serviles be. Astoria that was working with humans to end the war despite the Drakons disagreement.
If there wasn't the knowledge that I would kill Rawal too, I wouldn't have done Ghaldring's ending because of Astoria.
I found it very hard to kill one Shaper that didn't deserve it, in order to bring down the Empire of thousands that did deserve it.
And I did it for personal gain, not morality.


EDIT: Sentience. Oh, boy. The word doesn't mean what I thought. It mentions things like "Qualia" that I've never heard, makes it different from Sapience (that is close, but still not what I meant) and self-awareness.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Blxz Blxz

Shadowwalker

  • Member
    • Member ID: 12,853
  • 410 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 10:51 PM #42 The Gazers' right to exist

Although I might regret wading into the paragraph slinging match I did want to comment on the dog sentience thing.

Alhoon, you are correct that many dogs fail the mirror test. They have designed a smell test version though and they think, with a high degree of certainty, that most dogs pass the 'smell mirror' test and are able to recognise a sense of self when their urine is sprayed by the researchers in unfamiliar places.

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 11:08 PM #43 The Gazers' right to exist

Good for the dogs as this may be, dogs and other animals are nowhere near the serviles in the following: Understanding cause-consequence, self-awareness beyond the mirror tests, awareness of time in the past-present-future form and basic problem solving. They are much simpler minds with much less cognizance ability than serviles... except the ones the Monarch made. Those may be able to use tools, but they have no free will and I doubt they have greater sense of self than the "smart" animals like primates and dogs. The Monarch-made serviles also seem to lack something else that most animals in earth seems to have: self-preservation instinct and I would dare say, procreation instinct. These poor creations seem to attack the player if attacked because it's in their orders, not out of self-preservation \ fight-or-flight instinct.

About the Monarch-made serviles, the question is not just if they are sentient, but if they can be considered alive or just biological self-moving robots.
Yes, I know we consider plants alive, but they're not animals and I don't know the distinction in English. Or Greek.


And I would like to remind everyone that Monarch was a Shaper before he lost his humanity. So much for the Shaper selection method success.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

Citizen

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,684
  • 23 posts

Posted 27 October 2016 - 11:51 PM #44 The Gazers' right to exist

“Sentience. Oh, boy. The word doesn't mean what I thought”
Does that mean you'll have to rephrase your point of view, then? Like: we can perfectly enslave sentient beings and kill them for food, as long as we treat them well enough? And only creatures that has human-level brain deserve freedom at all, lesser-than-that beings don't? That'll be some progress here. :D

"Nope, those don't count as sentient, these were your dream of living tools with legs. They were very disturbing because their form was close to humans"
Do you find human-like robots disturbing? People're already making that everywhere, just with limited functions and no freewill, and so far as I see, most people find them interesting/promising instead of disturbing. Btw serviles really don't look that much like human… The nose is plain weird. Hell, if many finds it disturbing, we can change what they look like, and wouldn't that be much better? From what I see, in G5 some shapers already learn how to read DNA properly, changing only the appearance will be a piece of cake soon. That'll make you feel much better (and a lot of the newbie shapers too, once we get a reliable result), right?

"Litalia had slightly worse bed-side manner and... she's not a Drakon"
So you're saying we MUST have empathy for same species? Even for someone changed by geneforge, who's probably no longer a human being any more? You should know that geneforge has a very strong effect to make people unable to do empathy any more. Wouldn't it be asking too much, when she's no more than a husk filled with essence?

"I would prefer the Drakons doing it"
"I'm sure that a lot of black people are\were happy that they were liberated by their masters dying violently"
That's funny, I think you said you hate how they do things by huge violence. Ends doesn't justify the means, etc. So, when you hate someone enough, you find mass massacre a lot more justified than slow peaceful progress, then?
"Because the question was not "kill a few to save more". It was "kill many" or "kill few to save more". There was never an option of "not killing anyone""
So why do you choose to kill more here, hmm? Seems to me that if there's 1 rebel on this path, 1 shaper + 4 innocents on that path, you'd probably go kill those shaper/innocents, because it seems right, as long as you get to kill the shapers at all. That's what happened in the games, no?

"And then, we more or less said "#### it. Everyone* will have power""
I always do agree that if you can have power, you can be equal, because power determines. Those who cannot have power still can't be equal. Stop giving me human vs human examples… Even kids can go kill parents when they really want to, so I really don't care about superficial power difference, I don't know why you guys keep telling me these stuff. Try to find some species that is smart but never able to gain power, then we can have real progress. Geneforge is not real world human vs human situation, power is unbalanced no matter what, and freedom fights for unable-to-shape beings in there is doomed, is all; please, focus on something that is not equal in the first place, ok? And stop giving me examples about human vs human, I said several times that human vs human freedom fights works fine, I just want to focus on those who have NO chance to fight back at all.
So: Let's just nail it down to just one question, one is enough. If I am a shaper, and you are a servile I made, I can wave my hand and absorb you. Do you have ANY chance to be equal with me, at all, no matter who does what in where? Because I can do it, and no one can stop me, even if there's a Sucia and there's a council, I can still do it in my own mansion where others don't bother me; which is NEVER the same with human vs human situation. Just tell me, how do you plan to be equal with me, in such a situation?

"Moseh. Shaftoe. Taygen. Litalia. Monarch. Rawal. The list is big already"
You think accepting her into the circle will make the list smaller? It just gives you more excuses to blame shapers later, is all. If she's already emotional enough, your "She should have joined the Rebellion and get the respect her talents deserved" will very likely just result in another geneforge victim, and then you need to kill her like in G4 first chapter. So yeah, she can perhaps get happy for a while and sacrifice her own sanity later, murmuring "they never told me, they said I have potential, they killed me, they'll kill me again", does this make you feel better? Btw, you should think about G5 ending Sucia, where people eventually decided shaping should only be in the hands of a few. Does she even have any chance, when such a decision is reached, and there are many more people who are as talented as her, but much more stable? Who do you think we'll choose, her, or someone better at keeping the cool? Her only place is in your still bloody rebellion that cares nothing about the personal cost, she can become an opportunist and nothing more; in a peaceful time she'll just lose to competition again, even in Sucia, as long as there's anyone who can prove to do better. Because really, if we have tons of people dying to join shapers, why do we have to pick someone who cries and tears the letter and forgets to pay the messenger (not the first time too, she does it often enough that other shapers are actually expecting this, and prepares the reward for the player instead)? She's just not good enough, less capable than other competitors, is all.


Edit:
About the dog mirror test, if some of them can pass it, it means they can do it. For serviles, if some breeds are smart, some breeds are stupid, you say they're smart and deserve rights. Why use a whole different set of standards on dogs, just for your own convenience, instead of playing fair?

"Understanding cause-consequence, self-awareness beyond the mirror tests, awareness of time in the past-present-future form and basic problem solving"
And how do you know? You were wrong on a series of facts about dogs before, pal. I advise you to just check again, about whether dogs can do the above. Especially cause-consequence thing, which is easy to prove by dogs trying to hide their own mistakes or even blaming it on other dogs, creating a very logical fake scene which results in many inexperienced people actually believing in them, which shows they understand cause-consequence perfectly, a sense of logic, an ability to act according to it. The awareness of time works just fine in many species, unless you can prove to me that they cannot, and hopefully you're not waiting for the dogs to hold some old photo and spend the afternoon talking about good old days for you to believe in it. Problem solving is a piece of cake, how else do they prove to be as smart as 2-year-olds in tests? Really, after I proved you wrong for a few times on this topic, maybe you should try to learn more about them, instead of dismissing them, like a shaper.

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 28 October 2016 - 01:02 AM #45 The Gazers' right to exist

"then you need to kill her like in G4 first chapter" I didn't kill Shaila, I gave her to the Shapers and lied to Greta.

"she can perhaps get happy for a while and sacrifice her own sanity later, murmuring "they never told me, they said I have potential, they killed me, they'll kill me again", "
Giving her the FREEDOM to make the choice, doesn't mean she will make the wrong one. She's very disciplined to succumb to powerlust like Litalia. And again, I don't know if she's talented Shaper. She's a talented mage held back from her study of magic because a Shaper that goes on to make Control Cores that go rogue said so. It's not a question of whether she would be a Shaper or not (the answer is yes, she should become a Lifecrafter).
She clearly has the discipline and loyalty to become a very responsible Shaper\Lifecrafter and a little emotion is not bad at all; she would feel empathy about the Serviles and the Creations she made.
But the Shapers don't even allow her to progress her magic, let alone learn even rudimentary Shaping.

As for the Geneforge taking her ability of empathy: Not all Lifecrafters have been geneforged. The Geneforge is a crude way to crank out Lifecrafters in astonishing speed, that should have realistically overwhelmed the Shapers within a couple of years if utilized fully. However, the Southforge Geneforge was being used selectively to make a few Lifecrafters at a time because not even the Rebellion wanted unlimited access to Shaping through a procedure that changes the mind and the Northforge one was used only by Drakons.
Shaila is the one mistake the Rebels made when picking people to be Geneforged. Jarred may be an annoying, powerhungry individual that by the end, the Drakons liked, but he's not a mistake; he keeps his cool. Litalia was a mistake made by the Shapers.
And Shaila is caught pretty quickly, showing that despite what the Shapers and Shaper-supporting players think, even during the bleak years of the Rebellion, the rebels showed much more talent in picking who should become a Lifecrafter.


"Because really, if we have tons of people dying to join shapers"
Because she doesn't try to join the Shapers, she's asking permission of learning more spells, in order to fight the people that would remove the shackles from her. OK, she made the wrong decision but it was out of loyalty to an oppressive regime that has installed Stockholm syndrome on her so she's unable to see that she harms society's future by fighting FOR the Shapers instead of against them.
Also, the Shapers pick the wrong people. You say she would be a bad Shaper that would be added to the list. No. She'd be a good shaper that would be added to a different list that includes Miranda, Astoria (OK, she betrayed the Shapers), that turret-making Shaper in the border, Astoria's Shaper and Taygen's guardian that is angry he has to kill perfectly good creations but is loyal.

Quote

I said several times that human vs human freedom fights works fine, I just want to focus on those who have NO chance to fight back at all.
No other sentient* species on record. We wiped out the Neanderthals ~15K years ago. So, you have to tolerate me using human vs human freedom fights.
*What I described as sentient, not the weird meaning in wikipedia

Geneforge world where you have hit points i.e. a bad fighter cannot kill you, wound you permanently etc and a good fighter can kill you with a baton hit + People can spam those good fighters?
That's not a question about how the non-Shapers \ non-magic using \ Low-level people would fight. They would lose. World mechanics make sure of that. By the end of GF5, without cheating, I wiped out as a personal challenge a Rebel army that included 4 Unbound to see if it was possible. It was possible, it was not even too hard once you're level 48 with good artifacts and 6 uber-creations.
No, the question is should those be oppressed by the people that can kill everything? The Rebellion's answer is: no. And the geneforge and cannisters evened the odds. Apparently not evened them enough, so the Rebellion had to resort to very underhanded tactics (Unbound, Shredbugs).
Once the Rebellion was won, there was no need to create instantly powerful people, so the geneforges were abandoned. People could pursue power much more freely now, in both sides; Shapers have lost so many from their numbers that they would probably open up the lists. And since there was now the option of people under them jumping ship and moving to Sucia, they had to treat them better.


Quote


That's funny, I think you said you hate how they do things by huge violence. Ends doesn't justify the means, etc. So, when you hate someone enough, you find mass massacre a lot more justified than slow peaceful progress, then?
Yes.
I'm not for peaceful resistance all the time. When the Nazis occupied Greece, we didn't do Ghandi-like resistance. We fought with an insurgency. And today, it's the Greece's national day to honor the people that died during these terrible times. We consider them heroes for fighting the enemy.


Quote

"Because the question was not "kill a few to save more". It was "kill many" or "kill few to save more". There was never an option of "not killing anyone""
So why do you choose to kill more here, hmm?
I didn't. I chose "kill few to save more" and joined the Rebellion.

"
Seems to me that if there's 1 rebel on this path, 1 shaper + 4 innocents on that path, you'd probably go kill those shaper/innocents, because it seems right, as long as you get to kill the shapers at all. "
No, that's Ghaldring and a ton of servile rebels. Not me.
Alwan and Taygen would go for the kill 1 rebel + 4 innocents to make sure the rebelled died.
Rawal would go to "Can I kill rebel, Shaper and innocents and steal their money afterwards? If not, then I'll kill the one that is winning"
Astoria now, my choice. She would kill the fewer. She turns against Shapers (quite dishonestly) to curb Alwan and she also kills Ghaldring (OK, assists me to kill Ghaldring).

"That's what happened in the games, no?"
Yes, because Ghaldring and Litalia hijacked the Rebellion in GF4 and unleashed the Unbound, without listening to the complains of the sane part of the Rebellion that said "For everything that's holy! STOP MAKING UNBOUND! The rebellion's saved! We can win other ways! Don't turn Western Terrestia to a graveyard!"
Even some Drakons agree that the Unbound production should stop. Like the one holed up in Derra Reaches that warns you there's an Unbound that would kill him (or her, I don't recall) because they're mad. Or the one that Astoria works with and Ghaldring wants killed. Ghaldring wants a lot of Drakons killed...


Quote

So you're saying we MUST have empathy for same species? Even for someone changed by geneforge, who's probably no longer a human being any more? You should know that geneforge has a very strong effect to make people unable to do empathy any more. Wouldn't it be asking too much, when she's no more than a husk filled with essence?
Yes, we MUST have empathy for the same species. Sure, Litalia is a leather husk filled with essence without emotions and all but that doesn't make me feel better when she did the operation.
PS. It's not the geneforge by itself. It's the self-shaping. Canisters + geneforge.


Quote

Do you find human-like robots disturbing?
You found something here doctor. ;)
You're right. I find them mildly disturbing at first, but I'm sure I could be used to them. Nowhere close to how Monarch's living tool serviles made me feel.
Here you have it: I don't know why the Monarch's serviles made me so uneasy. I had the initial reaction to want to "end them", like when I see a roach but then I felt... pity of them. If that helps you analyze me and tell me why I had that reaction from them.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

Owenmoz Owenmoz

Shadowwalker

  • Member
    • Member ID: 17,190
  • 459 posts
  • LocationNairobi, Kenya

Posted 28 October 2016 - 03:18 AM #46 The Gazers' right to exist

Btw; I resign!

Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

The Demon of Good Taste

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 223
  • 13,774 posts

Posted 28 October 2016 - 03:48 AM #47 The Gazers' right to exist

View Postalhoon, on 27 October 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

"One most important thing here: dogs are sentient. "
Nah, they're not. Most actually fail the mirror test which is not good enough for me. Few very smart dogs do... and the majority of elephants.
https://en.wikipedia...sms_of_the_test

The mirror test is not a generally accepted standard of sentience.  First, it has a lot of flaws and isn't actually a generally accepted standard of anything.  But more importantly -- it isn't even supposed to test sentience, it's supposed to test self-awareness!  Those are two different things.  I think you need to double check your terminology here.
"I, for one, prefer to believe that the forums are dead and that Lilith, Slarty, and I are all ghosts haunting the forum." -- Triumph

"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:09 AM #48 The Gazers' right to exist

Oh, yes. In those dozens of posts of mine, I figured that up and realized that I had a very different meaning for "sentient" than the actual term. The word "Sapience" is closer to what I meant, but still not exactly. Also Blxz was kind enough to inform us about the mirror test and its flaws and how they test self-awareness to dogs by smell.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

Citizen

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,684
  • 23 posts

Posted 29 October 2016 - 03:45 AM #49 The Gazers' right to exist

The dog topic actually isn't THAT important here, to be fair. I want to use them to compare with serviles but I guess people won't ever bother to see them in a more equal way, just like most shapers dismiss serviles as mere creations, so, maybe we should just forget about it and come back to game world discussion. For all I know, some people out there in real world fight for more respect for animals but they rarely get success, surely I myself won't make much difference even if I try. :p (Proves my point, though: Power determines, with unshakable power compared to other animals, they'll never be properly respected, unlike in ancient days when we pay respect to almost all animals and plants)

"Giving her the FREEDOM to make the choice"
If that's what really happened in rebelion, I wouldn't be upset with them so much, you know. Just warn beforehand that you might go insane and disfigured, instead of avoiding mentioning the effects, would be good enough for me. Yet, they choose not to, so that they can utilise such eager people. How's that the same as providing freedom?

"She clearly has the discipline and loyalty to become a very responsible Shaper\Lifecrafter and a little emotion is not bad at all; she would feel empathy about the Serviles and the Creations she made"
That actually resulted in Litalia, though? Very capable, strong discipline, good empathy towards creations. AND emotional, which is actually a key point when combined. Why let past mistakes repeat?

"Not all Lifecrafters have been geneforged"
True, but the rest of them are made by using canisters. Which just effectively turn you into a cold-blooded inhuman person anyway. Like Litalia, right?

Now, apparently it's unfair to use bad apples as example, but since you love doing that to speak against shaper laws, I guess it's fair that I do so as well. All your justified actions can result in disasters just as fine. Have you realised that madness is bound to happen to some people when they learn shaping power, no matter what? You can't effectively prevent them beforehand, be it shapers or rebels, controlled or not; yet, when you know of such a risk, at least shapers control it honestly, while rebels utilise people without telling them beforehand, using them as mere tools in war. You can't stop the evil from the core, but rebels made the evil worse by sacrificing innocents for their own good. If you guys are honest with what you're doing, instead of tainting freedom with trickery, I wouldn't have problem with it at all, because I only care about innocents.

"That's not a question about how the non-Shapers \ non-magic using \ Low-level people would fight. They would lose. World mechanics make sure of that"
"No, the question is should those be oppressed by the people that can kill everything? The Rebellion's answer is: no"
Weird that the one question I pointed out didn't get direct answer. Come on, surely you can tell me, how do you plan to be equal with me if I can absorb you with a wave of hand? Even with rebellion success, Sucia nation functioning, etc? Can you really change the fate of creations, who're always at creator's mercy no matter what?
(Besides, you can't seem to understand why I say power is the only thing that matters. Face it: without geneforge/canister breakthrough, your "should" will never become reality, which is the only problem in here. But we don't have to dwell on "what if", we can just look at creations, and how can you ever find a way to make them equal with their masters, with or without rebellion?)

"So, when you hate someone enough, you find mass massacre a lot more justified than slow peaceful progress, then"
"So why do you choose to kill more here, hmm?"
"I didn't. I chose "kill few to save more" and joined the Rebellion"
Not what I meant; if you think it's right to do mass massacre when there's enough hate, then it means you choose to kill more people on the rail in real life, your "Yes. I'm not for peaceful resistance all the time. When the Nazis…" answer. Nazi might be a bad example here because they kill people instead of just making slaves or merely hurting people, you should probably stick to non-lethal conflicts for better examples. But that "yes" still mean you find it ok to kill 10 people instead of 1, if you personally think those 10 people are properly hated. (If they're murderers, fine, it's fair; but many shapers you kill during rebelion, they're not. They are probably mean to outsiders and they absorb their own creations when needed, the same thing you do during your own gameplay, but that's it. Let alone the real innocent people.)

"Yes, because Ghaldring and Litalia hijacked the Rebellion in GF4 and unleashed the Unbound, without listening to the complains"
The funny thing is, without such extremists, rebels might as well just hole up somewhere north and use only self defence to survive (in G2 there's a rebel good ending, sadly you're not there yet). If we really avoid killing innocents, my earlier suggestion might actually be the best choice in here.

"Here you have it: I don't know why the Monarch's serviles made me so uneasy. I had the initial reaction to want to "end them", like when I see a roach but then I felt... pity of them. If that helps you analyze me and tell me why I had that reaction from them"
Cool, if you want analysing I'll give you some! :D Simple question, might be useful: If you see stupid ones earlier, and see smarter ones later, would it still make you feel bad, if your very first impression is "they're supposed to be without will"? Like, you think your tv is just a piece of machine, but one day it talks to you and you see it's alive, and you eventually realise a lot of electronics are with brains, but not all of them - now, do you want to end the existence of other normal "stupid" tv?

Owenmoz, thanks for informing us. XD Have you read the AI description I wrote the second time though? If you haven't, skip it for all you like. If you already have, and still feel troubled, feel free to ask about that. But yeah, talking about things that don't exist yet is kinda pointless...

Owenmoz Owenmoz

Shadowwalker

  • Member
    • Member ID: 17,190
  • 459 posts
  • LocationNairobi, Kenya

Posted 30 October 2016 - 10:51 PM #50 The Gazers' right to exist

My resignation is still in effect so feel free to ugnore this:
In general i refuse to see dogs as equal because they are devil spawn and i dislike them strongly. Esp when they overstep themselves. An equal to me won't bite me when i chide them for peeing on the parquet.  So in general dogs shouldn't be in the discussion.

Second, the rebelion was simply a more Chaotic and quicker way to bring on change. The society has changes a lot and would have changed more. The marking difference on those two is that serviles wouldn't have been recognised without the war. To g5 quite a few shapers don't entirely understand how come they are able of independent thought.

That being said, serviles are able to equal or superior thinking as humans. Thats why comparison with animals isn't good. The power over serviles is mostly military not cognitive. Serviles are actually physically more capable than shapers. And in such a scenario military power is meaningless; let me introduce you to gerilha warfare. Colombian government dragged up a war for 50 something years against a less supplied and less numbered enemies. Most independence wars and insurgencies and coup d'etat s are done like that. And quite a few are successful.

Monarch was not known as a shaper before. No one knows where he came from. It is just a matter of assigning blame as convenient with the trajkovites having the upper hand as like they say, shaping was to blame.

We work that way though mass murder is justified if we hate something enough and we have the power to do so. Wasn't that how NATO intervened in Lybia? Wether thats right or not its how we work. Always.

Finally i read on the AI, as a scientist im not very able to work with something that cannot be worked with empirically, i need facts and observable studies on it. But assuming what you said is known and the only possible outcome. I still do not agree on it. It removes our need to evolve and our freedom. I will not agree on it no matter the pros.

The difference between animals and plants is one is animate the other is inanimate.


FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

Citizen

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,684
  • 23 posts

Posted 31 October 2016 - 02:54 AM #51 The Gazers' right to exist

Meh, it's fine. Dogs aren't that important, they just have the most similarity with serviles than anything else, is all. We don't need to always focus on that.

"The marking difference on those two is that serviles wouldn't have been recognised without the war"
Personally I don't find that important. Shapers are capable of making more freewill creatures, or fewer; we can have 3, have 5, have 10, history leads us to somewhere and we accept the current situation. We could have made 100 more freewill new species and then give them freedom as well but what's even the point?

"The power over serviles is mostly military not cognitive. Serviles are actually physically more capable than shapers"
Still doesn't change the fact that they're no match for shapers at all. Just imagine how they'll ever be respected at all without help from drakons and human. Feel free to answer that question too, if you'd like: If you're a servile and your master can absorb you within one second, how can you ever be truly free and equal?

"Wether thats right or not its how we work. Always"
You're right on that, you know? We human only ever bother with moral codes when we can afford it. Funny how most people try to justify it to make themselves feel better. My very first viewpoint, is that human turn away from the truth, the real evil within, done by their own hands. Always easier to say someone else is doing it worse, should be punished (while it's more for their own benefit), etc.

"I still do not agree on it. It removes our need to evolve and our freedom. I will not agree on it no matter the pros"
Of course, I would guess over 99.9% of human beings won't like it. Yet, I have a feeling that if a superior being does exist, it won't ever think it's necessary for us to evolve and have freedom at all. For example, would you want dogs to evolve, repeat all mistakes we human once did, and slowly grow to be as powerful as us? Most people will find it a dangerous thing that should be prevented, or at least supervised, never giving them a real chance to do it freely as they wish. If there's any superior being, surely it'll think human evolution is a waste of time and energy.

"The difference between animals and plants is one is animate the other is inanimate"
What about Venus flytraps, then? Examples are rare, but still existent. And besides… Plants do move on their own, if you think carefully about how they function. They can move very slowly by growth, towards where there's light and water. You know, at the beginning, you think I'm someone who's obsessed with being superior; but I actually see everything as equal as us, on a more fundamental level, as living things. The "superiority" I talk about is really just a difference in power, not the superficial kind, but the kind of power that cannot be taken or acquired (at least, without proper evolution).

alhoon alhoon

Sorcerer

  • Member
    • Member ID: 16,946
  • 684 posts

Posted 02 November 2016 - 02:39 PM #52 The Gazers' right to exist

Without delving in most of what's been said in the thread:

Quote

Cool, if you want analysing I'll give you some! :D Simple question, might be useful: If you see stupid ones earlier, and see smarter ones later, would it still make you feel bad, if your very first impression is "they're supposed to be without will"? Like, you think your tv is just a piece of machine, but one day it talks to you and you see it's alive, and you eventually realise a lot of electronics are with brains, but not all of them - now, do you want to end the existence of other normal "stupid" tv?

Correction. I started watching a series with human-looking robots (Humans TV series). The robots creep the heck out of me, to the point I take breaks from watching the first episode.


And back to the discussion:  

Quote

If that's what really happened in rebelion, I wouldn't be upset with them so much, you know. Just warn beforehand that you might go insane and disfigured, instead of avoiding mentioning the effects, would be good enough for me. Yet, they choose not to, so that they can utilise such eager people. How's that the same as providing freedom?
It's not. First it was wrong of the rebellion to not warn everyone of the risks involved, that your personality will change you won't just get to shoot firebolts. Second, they did warn some people, just not everyone. Jarred has been warned beforehand.

Quote

"Not all Lifecrafters have been geneforged"
True, but the rest of them are made by using canisters. Which just effectively turn you into a cold-blooded inhuman person anyway. Like Litalia, right?
Litalia was made so by Shaper conditioning, like most of them. It's not just the boost from the canisters, it's that power corrupts. And the Shapers take their students in from early age and condition them \ braiwash them. By the time you were in that school in GF3, at like 20, you were in the system for like 5 years.

Quote

at least shapers control it honestly, while rebels utilise people without telling them beforehand, using them as mere tools in war.
Yes, Shapers are more honest. They're also more oppressive and way more tyrannical.

Quote

That actually resulted in Litalia, though? Very capable, strong discipline, good empathy towards creations. AND emotional, which is actually a key point when combined. Why let past mistakes repeat?
Nope, it didn't result in Litalia. Litalia was very capable, strong discipline, no empathy towards creations and nearly devoid of emotions. She told me in two games she burned serviles alive as they were begging for their lives. She wiped out Drayks, Serviles and Drakons in the Drypeaks mercilessly. She attacked a freaking school and set monsters to go eat people so people would be mad at Shapers.
She lacked empathy.
And another thing since you keep mentioning it: That loyal mage, is asking for more magical spells, not to become a Shaper. She's denied progressing in a different field.

Quote

Weird that the one question I pointed out didn't get direct answer. Come on, surely you can tell me, how do you plan to be equal with me if I can absorb you with a wave of hand? Even with rebellion success, Sucia nation functioning, etc? Can you really change the fate of creations, who're always at creator's mercy no matter what?
(Besides, you can't seem to understand why I say power is the only thing that matters. Face it: without geneforge/canister breakthrough, your "should" will never become reality, which is the only problem in here. But we don't have to dwell on "what if", we can just look at creations, and how can you ever find a way to make them equal with their masters, with or without rebellion?)
Hmmm? Shapers can't absorb creations they haven't made themselves, unless the creation is nice and calm and they have it under control. If they could, rebellion would be over pretty quickly. In order to absorb a creation, in GF3, you take control of it, and then slowly dismantle the magic holding it. At that's for a lowly artila BTW, that's not rogue. I think it says somewhere in GF4 that you can't do that to rogues; unless you have them under control, YOUR control, you can't absorb them.
Of course without the Canisters and the Geneforge the rebellion would be lost! I never denied that. Even with the canisters and the geneforges, it took the Unbound to turn the tide and in 4/6 endings in GF5, the rebellion loses anyway.

Quote

Nazi might be a bad example here because they kill people instead of just making slaves
I disagree with you, and so does the Rebellion. Better die standing than live on your knees. In our flag the colors symbolize "Freedom or Death". Enslaving a nation\sentient race is worse than killing people.

"But that "yes" still mean you find it ok to kill 10 people instead of 1, if you personally think those 10 people are properly hated."
Yes.
"If they're murderers, fine, it's fair; but many shapers you kill during rebelion, they're not. They are probably mean to outsiders and they absorb their own creations when needed, the same thing you do during your own gameplay, but that's it. Let alone the real innocent people"

War is a bad business and I admit I have done some pretty horrible things in the 2 games (and probably will do so in GF3).

I have killed or led to the death Shapers or soldiers that were not mean to outsiders. Like those nice people in Rockfall, that I fed to Unbound just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's war. You kill enemies that you have nothing against.

And another thing that goes on in the war and isn't shown in the game too much: In war good people get killed and opportunists survive. When we were fighting the Turks to gain independence, the brave patriotic people were dying and their families hunted down. Same with the Nazi Occupation. Guess who had a much better rate of survival? The collaborators that turned on the enemy only when it was clear which side would win.

Back to wars, I've spoken with veterans. They had to kill people they knew nothing about and that they knew they were fighting for their own country. People they could relay to, but that they were shooting at because they have been born on a different side of the border. They said they could relate to them, realized they shared the same fear, that they had loved ones praying for them and all. Greek soldiers became friends with Italian captives of the war.
My grandfather befriended several german officers after WW2, when he was sent to defeated Germany as occupation force by the allies. He says he has met monsters full of hate and good people that have just been on the other side.

That is what Astoria understands and Alwan doesn't. In an Astoria ending, I could visit my Shaper turret-making friend and have a tea. I could visit Rockfall and lay flowers on the unmarked grave of that commander that had to make do with a broken gate until I led Unbound to attack him from behind. I could visit the guardian that chaffed under Taygen's command and gossip about the hateful old man. I could tell people that badmouthed Agent Miranda (IMO the best Shaper) to F-off, the same way as English and French pilots in WW1 would send to detention people that badmouthed the Red Baron after his death.
We wouldn't be enemies anymore.
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia

GF5 mod with extra quest chain here!  Discover who you are and set up your base.

"Ohhh, no! No, it's so close! So close!" - Blxz, ambushed by an Unbound

FlorenceTWA FlorenceTWA

Citizen

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,684
  • 23 posts

Posted 03 November 2016 - 02:12 AM #53 The Gazers' right to exist

"Correction. I started watching a series with human-looking robots"
I'm merely testing an assumption here - "it's the first impression that matters" - not really saying you actually started from there. Maybe I should use another example instead: If you think plants are supposed to be simple living things, but one day you start to find smart plants that can talk to you, will you find the "dumb" plants creepy and want to eliminate them? Nope, you'll think the smart ones are out of place. It just means: you only think human-like things should be 100% human-like because that's what you learn at first. You'll think dumb ones are abnormal. Yet, for other things, you'll think they're "supposed" to be without a mind, and if they do have one, you'll find that abnormal and you hate the smart ones instead, denying it as well as you can. Just a matter of perception, you being taught what things "should" be like, and hating the "abnormal" ones.

"Second, they did warn some people, just not everyone"
I would bet they look very carefully and only warn those who look like they're willing to pay the price anyway. Which makes it a bit more annoying actually, because it sounds like hypocrite.

"Litalia was made so by Shaper conditioning, like most of them"
"no empathy towards creations"
Are you sure? In G3 it's emphasised several times that her canister symptom is getting more and more severe and she used to care very much (you need to hear her tell you the true past of how she ran away crying like a baby, not the fake past in G4 & G5. Hmm, not really THAT fake, but she leaves out very important details) but not any more. Though you CAN get some emotional and honest response in G3 (probably because she was still in the progress of canister alteration), in G4 and G5 you have no such luck, she's too far gone, no matter how she tries to come back being human again. Pretty much proves that she's ruined by canisters instead of shaper ways, progressively wiping her old self and humanity and empathy clean, and Ghaldring has a hand in this too… Ah, just go play G3 and go for the shaper ending, choose carefully to hear her confess. You'll probably like it.

"Yes, Shapers are more honest. They're also more oppressive and way more tyrannical"
Well, I'm one who prefer people who're honest to humanity, so yeah.

"Hmmm? Shapers can't absorb creations they haven't made themselves"
"In order to absorb a creation, in GF3, you take control of it, and then slowly dismantle the magic holding it"
Yeah, you just told me it's possible to absorb creations made by others. It's kinda hard but don't forget your player is just a mere apprentice. In G1, it's stated more than a dozen of times that absorbing a random servile is perfectly possible by a proper shaper, but being an apprentice, it's impossible alright. In G1 there's sth else too, but it's a huge secret… I won't spoil it for you; just know that shaping power is a LOT stronger than you assumed, a true shaper can wave a hand and things just go die immediately, creation or natural lives all the same. Sadly this strongest form of power was probably lost during history. Go find it yourself when you feel like it.
And based on that, tell me again… If you can't be free even if you try, is freedom a good thing, a right thing, which might just result in getting wiped out as a "failed" species?

"Better die standing than live on your knees"
It's not how humanity works, though. This beautiful slogan can only work when there's a chance to fight back. Otherwise, human can be tamed. We cannot be tamed forever by our own species because like I say, the difference in power is very superficial… But given a much stronger species, believe me, all people with backbones will be killed and only the most obedient ones will be left behind, evolution "helping" us becoming tamed like dogs in just a few generations. It might even become instinct if given a long time. Freedom is not "the right thing", it's only the right thing for those who have a chance. For others, I'd rather praise their loyalty to allow them keep the only bit of dignity they have left, some kind of "meaning" in their lives, instead of causing them self-loathing and leading to suicidal actions. Because true weaklings are better off living like that, pawns, pets, things, and it's truly what weaklings prefer; they don't need things like freedom to suffer even more, Pat pat good dog.

"In war good people get killed and opportunists survive"
Good point. And you should see how shapers, even in war, try to protect human, instead of leaving them there as war fodders. And rebels think like you do: we have no choice, let innocents die because that's what happens in war. You say shapers use human like mere resources… No, rebels use them like resources, a mere method to cause more fear and chaos, go die because we need you to, etc. And shapers, despite all the difficulties during war time, still care, because they have this feeling of honour, of doing right things to be worthy of their own title. It's like some of the bad families out there: suppose there's a kid, and a father. The father is abusive, but in a dire time he'd protect his kid anyway, because it's his kid. The kid also has a friend who worries about him and shows care, encourages him to escape the family and promising further support, but when facing some real danger, this friend abandons the kid in the hope of saving his own ass. Well, guess who the kid will hate more after that? Would he prefer an abusive father who saved him, or a caring friend who used him as fodder?

So enough with "no choice", "has to happen". Surely there're good people who have no bad will, just ending up on the other side, etc. But I only trust it if they really do something. Words are nothing by itself. So show me some examples that rebels help innocents live better in war, how about that? (Hopefully without recruiting them into the rebels; or, hopefully it's really for caring about people, instead of player killing bandits for loot. Anyone but the player should be fine, I guess.) I know real life people can do it, yes. In the game, some shapers are infiltrators in enemy land and can be in danger if not careful, yet they still give local people some help and try to keep them safe. They can say "I can't afford it, I myself might be endangered" but did they? A sense of responsibility, a fact that they actually care, if they as villains can do it, how come the rebels don't?

And yes, my main problem with Astoria is, she accepts this kind of terrorism, believing the ends justifies the means. Your words proves that you think so as well, no matter how much you deny it and how much you say "there's no choice", yes there is, it's called self-defence and it's in G2 rebel ending, worked out great. If you really believe ends don't justifies the means, then you shouldn't do the "necessary evil" - the bad methods - for a good ending. Sticking to Alwan, on the other hand, I can safely say we only target those who have a hand in war, and leave the innocents alone, even protecting them in the meantime.

Btw, would you mind telling me, what do you think of "everyone agrees that shaper law makes sense" in all G5 endings? Which means, in Sucia, they start to let only a handful people have shaping power and close the door to most people? (Because shaper law = control shaping tightly, kill rogues on sight, shapers are god; surely they won't like the other two, so this should be the only entry that everyone agrees upon) I haven't yet seen you answer to that directly. You put your hope in Sucia, but I'd love to hear what you think about this detail.

Edit:
Ah, on second thought… No, Astoria doesn't support terrorism that much. Maybe a little, but just a little. The moment she realised rebels were breeding bugs deep inside shadow road, she kinda lost hope in them. Hmm. This means she's merely living in an ideal world believing rebels are reasonable and peaceful when given a chance, until Alwan/Litalia throws the fact in her face. Ah well, in that case, I really shouldn't blame her when she herself realised it's a mistake.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Gazers, Gazer, Eyebeast

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users