FlorenceTWA

"Correction. I started watching a series with human-looking robots" I'm merely testing an assumption here - "it's the first impression that matters" - not really saying you actually started from there. Maybe I should use another example instead: If you think plants are supposed to be simple living things, but one day you start to find smart plants that can talk to you, will you find the "dumb" plants creepy and want to eliminate them? Nope, you'll think the smart ones are out of place. It just means: you only think human-like things should be 100% human-like because that's what you learn at first. You'll think dumb ones are abnormal. Yet, for other things, you'll think they're "supposed" to be without a mind, and if they do have one, you'll find that abnormal and you hate the smart ones instead, denying it as well as you can. Just a matter of perception, you being taught what things "should" be like, and hating the "abnormal" ones. "Second, they did warn some people, just not everyone" I would bet they look very carefully and only warn those who look like they're willing to pay the price anyway. Which makes it a bit more annoying actually, because it sounds like hypocrite. "Litalia was made so by Shaper conditioning, like most of them" "no empathy towards creations" Are you sure? In G3 it's emphasised several times that her canister symptom is getting more and more severe and she used to care very much (you need to hear her tell you the true past of how she ran away crying like a baby, not the fake past in G4 & G5. Hmm, not really THAT fake, but she leaves out very important details) but not any more. Though you CAN get some emotional and honest response in G3 (probably because she was still in the progress of canister alteration), in G4 and G5 you have no such luck, she's too far gone, no matter how she tries to come back being human again. Pretty much proves that she's ruined by canisters instead of shaper ways, progressively wiping her old self and humanity and empathy clean, and Ghaldring has a hand in this too… Ah, just go play G3 and go for the shaper ending, choose carefully to hear her confess. You'll probably like it. "Yes, Shapers are more honest. They're also more oppressive and way more tyrannical" Well, I'm one who prefer people who're honest to humanity, so yeah. "Hmmm? Shapers can't absorb creations they haven't made themselves" "In order to absorb a creation, in GF3, you take control of it, and then slowly dismantle the magic holding it" Yeah, you just told me it's possible to absorb creations made by others. It's kinda hard but don't forget your player is just a mere apprentice. In G1, it's stated more than a dozen of times that absorbing a random servile is perfectly possible by a proper shaper, but being an apprentice, it's impossible alright. In G1 there's sth else too, but it's a huge secret… I won't spoil it for you; just know that shaping power is a LOT stronger than you assumed, a true shaper can wave a hand and things just go die immediately, creation or natural lives all the same. Sadly this strongest form of power was probably lost during history. Go find it yourself when you feel like it. And based on that, tell me again… If you can't be free even if you try, is freedom a good thing, a right thing, which might just result in getting wiped out as a "failed" species? "Better die standing than live on your knees" It's not how humanity works, though. This beautiful slogan can only work when there's a chance to fight back. Otherwise, human can be tamed. We cannot be tamed forever by our own species because like I say, the difference in power is very superficial… But given a much stronger species, believe me, all people with backbones will be killed and only the most obedient ones will be left behind, evolution "helping" us becoming tamed like dogs in just a few generations. It might even become instinct if given a long time. Freedom is not "the right thing", it's only the right thing for those who have a chance. For others, I'd rather praise their loyalty to allow them keep the only bit of dignity they have left, some kind of "meaning" in their lives, instead of causing them self-loathing and leading to suicidal actions. Because true weaklings are better off living like that, pawns, pets, things, and it's truly what weaklings prefer; they don't need things like freedom to suffer even more, Pat pat good dog. "In war good people get killed and opportunists survive" Good point. And you should see how shapers, even in war, try to protect human, instead of leaving them there as war fodders. And rebels think like you do: we have no choice, let innocents die because that's what happens in war. You say shapers use human like mere resources… No, rebels use them like resources, a mere method to cause more fear and chaos, go die because we need you to, etc. And shapers, despite all the difficulties during war time, still care, because they have this feeling of honour, of doing right things to be worthy of their own title. It's like some of the bad families out there: suppose there's a kid, and a father. The father is abusive, but in a dire time he'd protect his kid anyway, because it's his kid. The kid also has a friend who worries about him and shows care, encourages him to escape the family and promising further support, but when facing some real danger, this friend abandons the kid in the hope of saving his own ass. Well, guess who the kid will hate more after that? Would he prefer an abusive father who saved him, or a caring friend who used him as fodder? So enough with "no choice", "has to happen". Surely there're good people who have no bad will, just ending up on the other side, etc. But I only trust it if they really do something. Words are nothing by itself. So show me some examples that rebels help innocents live better in war, how about that? (Hopefully without recruiting them into the rebels; or, hopefully it's really for caring about people, instead of player killing bandits for loot. Anyone but the player should be fine, I guess.) I know real life people can do it, yes. In the game, some shapers are infiltrators in enemy land and can be in danger if not careful, yet they still give local people some help and try to keep them safe. They can say "I can't afford it, I myself might be endangered" but did they? A sense of responsibility, a fact that they actually care, if they as villains can do it, how come the rebels don't? And yes, my main problem with Astoria is, she accepts this kind of terrorism, believing the ends justifies the means. Your words proves that you think so as well, no matter how much you deny it and how much you say "there's no choice", yes there is, it's called self-defence and it's in G2 rebel ending, worked out great. If you really believe ends don't justifies the means, then you shouldn't do the "necessary evil" - the bad methods - for a good ending. Sticking to Alwan, on the other hand, I can safely say we only target those who have a hand in war, and leave the innocents alone, even protecting them in the meantime. Btw, would you mind telling me, what do you think of "everyone agrees that shaper law makes sense" in all G5 endings? Which means, in Sucia, they start to let only a handful people have shaping power and close the door to most people? (Because shaper law = control shaping tightly, kill rogues on sight, shapers are god; surely they won't like the other two, so this should be the only entry that everyone agrees upon) I haven't yet seen you answer to that directly. You put your hope in Sucia, but I'd love to hear what you think about this detail. Edit: Ah, on second thought… No, Astoria doesn't support terrorism that much. Maybe a little, but just a little. The moment she realised rebels were breeding bugs deep inside shadow road, she kinda lost hope in them. Hmm. This means she's merely living in an ideal world believing rebels are reasonable and peaceful when given a chance, until Alwan/Litalia throws the fact in her face. Ah well, in that case, I really shouldn't blame her when she herself realised it's a mistake.

Meh, it's fine. Dogs aren't that important, they just have the most similarity with serviles than anything else, is all. We don't need to always focus on that. "The marking difference on those two is that serviles wouldn't have been recognised without the war" Personally I don't find that important. Shapers are capable of making more freewill creatures, or fewer; we can have 3, have 5, have 10, history leads us to somewhere and we accept the current situation. We could have made 100 more freewill new species and then give them freedom as well but what's even the point? "The power over serviles is mostly military not cognitive. Serviles are actually physically more capable than shapers" Still doesn't change the fact that they're no match for shapers at all. Just imagine how they'll ever be respected at all without help from drakons and human. Feel free to answer that question too, if you'd like: If you're a servile and your master can absorb you within one second, how can you ever be truly free and equal? "Wether thats right or not its how we work. Always" You're right on that, you know? We human only ever bother with moral codes when we can afford it. Funny how most people try to justify it to make themselves feel better. My very first viewpoint, is that human turn away from the truth, the real evil within, done by their own hands. Always easier to say someone else is doing it worse, should be punished (while it's more for their own benefit), etc. "I still do not agree on it. It removes our need to evolve and our freedom. I will not agree on it no matter the pros" Of course, I would guess over 99.9% of human beings won't like it. Yet, I have a feeling that if a superior being does exist, it won't ever think it's necessary for us to evolve and have freedom at all. For example, would you want dogs to evolve, repeat all mistakes we human once did, and slowly grow to be as powerful as us? Most people will find it a dangerous thing that should be prevented, or at least supervised, never giving them a real chance to do it freely as they wish. If there's any superior being, surely it'll think human evolution is a waste of time and energy. "The difference between animals and plants is one is animate the other is inanimate" What about Venus flytraps, then? Examples are rare, but still existent. And besides… Plants do move on their own, if you think carefully about how they function. They can move very slowly by growth, towards where there's light and water. You know, at the beginning, you think I'm someone who's obsessed with being superior; but I actually see everything as equal as us, on a more fundamental level, as living things. The "superiority" I talk about is really just a difference in power, not the superficial kind, but the kind of power that cannot be taken or acquired (at least, without proper evolution).

The dog topic actually isn't THAT important here, to be fair. I want to use them to compare with serviles but I guess people won't ever bother to see them in a more equal way, just like most shapers dismiss serviles as mere creations, so, maybe we should just forget about it and come back to game world discussion. For all I know, some people out there in real world fight for more respect for animals but they rarely get success, surely I myself won't make much difference even if I try. (Proves my point, though: Power determines, with unshakable power compared to other animals, they'll never be properly respected, unlike in ancient days when we pay respect to almost all animals and plants) "Giving her the FREEDOM to make the choice" If that's what really happened in rebelion, I wouldn't be upset with them so much, you know. Just warn beforehand that you might go insane and disfigured, instead of avoiding mentioning the effects, would be good enough for me. Yet, they choose not to, so that they can utilise such eager people. How's that the same as providing freedom? "She clearly has the discipline and loyalty to become a very responsible Shaper\Lifecrafter and a little emotion is not bad at all; she would feel empathy about the Serviles and the Creations she made" That actually resulted in Litalia, though? Very capable, strong discipline, good empathy towards creations. AND emotional, which is actually a key point when combined. Why let past mistakes repeat? "Not all Lifecrafters have been geneforged" True, but the rest of them are made by using canisters. Which just effectively turn you into a cold-blooded inhuman person anyway. Like Litalia, right? Now, apparently it's unfair to use bad apples as example, but since you love doing that to speak against shaper laws, I guess it's fair that I do so as well. All your justified actions can result in disasters just as fine. Have you realised that madness is bound to happen to some people when they learn shaping power, no matter what? You can't effectively prevent them beforehand, be it shapers or rebels, controlled or not; yet, when you know of such a risk, at least shapers control it honestly, while rebels utilise people without telling them beforehand, using them as mere tools in war. You can't stop the evil from the core, but rebels made the evil worse by sacrificing innocents for their own good. If you guys are honest with what you're doing, instead of tainting freedom with trickery, I wouldn't have problem with it at all, because I only care about innocents. "That's not a question about how the non-Shapers \ non-magic using \ Low-level people would fight. They would lose. World mechanics make sure of that" "No, the question is should those be oppressed by the people that can kill everything? The Rebellion's answer is: no" Weird that the one question I pointed out didn't get direct answer. Come on, surely you can tell me, how do you plan to be equal with me if I can absorb you with a wave of hand? Even with rebellion success, Sucia nation functioning, etc? Can you really change the fate of creations, who're always at creator's mercy no matter what? (Besides, you can't seem to understand why I say power is the only thing that matters. Face it: without geneforge/canister breakthrough, your "should" will never become reality, which is the only problem in here. But we don't have to dwell on "what if", we can just look at creations, and how can you ever find a way to make them equal with their masters, with or without rebellion?) "So, when you hate someone enough, you find mass massacre a lot more justified than slow peaceful progress, then" "So why do you choose to kill more here, hmm?" "I didn't. I chose "kill few to save more" and joined the Rebellion" Not what I meant; if you think it's right to do mass massacre when there's enough hate, then it means you choose to kill more people on the rail in real life, your "Yes. I'm not for peaceful resistance all the time. When the Nazis…" answer. Nazi might be a bad example here because they kill people instead of just making slaves or merely hurting people, you should probably stick to non-lethal conflicts for better examples. But that "yes" still mean you find it ok to kill 10 people instead of 1, if you personally think those 10 people are properly hated. (If they're murderers, fine, it's fair; but many shapers you kill during rebelion, they're not. They are probably mean to outsiders and they absorb their own creations when needed, the same thing you do during your own gameplay, but that's it. Let alone the real innocent people.) "Yes, because Ghaldring and Litalia hijacked the Rebellion in GF4 and unleashed the Unbound, without listening to the complains" The funny thing is, without such extremists, rebels might as well just hole up somewhere north and use only self defence to survive (in G2 there's a rebel good ending, sadly you're not there yet). If we really avoid killing innocents, my earlier suggestion might actually be the best choice in here. "Here you have it: I don't know why the Monarch's serviles made me so uneasy. I had the initial reaction to want to "end them", like when I see a roach but then I felt... pity of them. If that helps you analyze me and tell me why I had that reaction from them" Cool, if you want analysing I'll give you some! Simple question, might be useful: If you see stupid ones earlier, and see smarter ones later, would it still make you feel bad, if your very first impression is "they're supposed to be without will"? Like, you think your tv is just a piece of machine, but one day it talks to you and you see it's alive, and you eventually realise a lot of electronics are with brains, but not all of them - now, do you want to end the existence of other normal "stupid" tv? Owenmoz, thanks for informing us. XD Have you read the AI description I wrote the second time though? If you haven't, skip it for all you like. If you already have, and still feel troubled, feel free to ask about that. But yeah, talking about things that don't exist yet is kinda pointless...

“Sentience. Oh, boy. The word doesn't mean what I thought” Does that mean you'll have to rephrase your point of view, then? Like: we can perfectly enslave sentient beings and kill them for food, as long as we treat them well enough? And only creatures that has human-level brain deserve freedom at all, lesser-than-that beings don't? That'll be some progress here. "Nope, those don't count as sentient, these were your dream of living tools with legs. They were very disturbing because their form was close to humans" Do you find human-like robots disturbing? People're already making that everywhere, just with limited functions and no freewill, and so far as I see, most people find them interesting/promising instead of disturbing. Btw serviles really don't look that much like human… The nose is plain weird. Hell, if many finds it disturbing, we can change what they look like, and wouldn't that be much better? From what I see, in G5 some shapers already learn how to read DNA properly, changing only the appearance will be a piece of cake soon. That'll make you feel much better (and a lot of the newbie shapers too, once we get a reliable result), right? "Litalia had slightly worse bed-side manner and... she's not a Drakon" So you're saying we MUST have empathy for same species? Even for someone changed by geneforge, who's probably no longer a human being any more? You should know that geneforge has a very strong effect to make people unable to do empathy any more. Wouldn't it be asking too much, when she's no more than a husk filled with essence? "I would prefer the Drakons doing it" "I'm sure that a lot of black people are\were happy that they were liberated by their masters dying violently" That's funny, I think you said you hate how they do things by huge violence. Ends doesn't justify the means, etc. So, when you hate someone enough, you find mass massacre a lot more justified than slow peaceful progress, then? "Because the question was not "kill a few to save more". It was "kill many" or "kill few to save more". There was never an option of "not killing anyone"" So why do you choose to kill more here, hmm? Seems to me that if there's 1 rebel on this path, 1 shaper + 4 innocents on that path, you'd probably go kill those shaper/innocents, because it seems right, as long as you get to kill the shapers at all. That's what happened in the games, no? "And then, we more or less said "#### it. Everyone* will have power"" I always do agree that if you can have power, you can be equal, because power determines. Those who cannot have power still can't be equal. Stop giving me human vs human examples… Even kids can go kill parents when they really want to, so I really don't care about superficial power difference, I don't know why you guys keep telling me these stuff. Try to find some species that is smart but never able to gain power, then we can have real progress. Geneforge is not real world human vs human situation, power is unbalanced no matter what, and freedom fights for unable-to-shape beings in there is doomed, is all; please, focus on something that is not equal in the first place, ok? And stop giving me examples about human vs human, I said several times that human vs human freedom fights works fine, I just want to focus on those who have NO chance to fight back at all. So: Let's just nail it down to just one question, one is enough. If I am a shaper, and you are a servile I made, I can wave my hand and absorb you. Do you have ANY chance to be equal with me, at all, no matter who does what in where? Because I can do it, and no one can stop me, even if there's a Sucia and there's a council, I can still do it in my own mansion where others don't bother me; which is NEVER the same with human vs human situation. Just tell me, how do you plan to be equal with me, in such a situation? "Moseh. Shaftoe. Taygen. Litalia. Monarch. Rawal. The list is big already" You think accepting her into the circle will make the list smaller? It just gives you more excuses to blame shapers later, is all. If she's already emotional enough, your "She should have joined the Rebellion and get the respect her talents deserved" will very likely just result in another geneforge victim, and then you need to kill her like in G4 first chapter. So yeah, she can perhaps get happy for a while and sacrifice her own sanity later, murmuring "they never told me, they said I have potential, they killed me, they'll kill me again", does this make you feel better? Btw, you should think about G5 ending Sucia, where people eventually decided shaping should only be in the hands of a few. Does she even have any chance, when such a decision is reached, and there are many more people who are as talented as her, but much more stable? Who do you think we'll choose, her, or someone better at keeping the cool? Her only place is in your still bloody rebellion that cares nothing about the personal cost, she can become an opportunist and nothing more; in a peaceful time she'll just lose to competition again, even in Sucia, as long as there's anyone who can prove to do better. Because really, if we have tons of people dying to join shapers, why do we have to pick someone who cries and tears the letter and forgets to pay the messenger (not the first time too, she does it often enough that other shapers are actually expecting this, and prepares the reward for the player instead)? She's just not good enough, less capable than other competitors, is all. Edit: About the dog mirror test, if some of them can pass it, it means they can do it. For serviles, if some breeds are smart, some breeds are stupid, you say they're smart and deserve rights. Why use a whole different set of standards on dogs, just for your own convenience, instead of playing fair? "Understanding cause-consequence, self-awareness beyond the mirror tests, awareness of time in the past-present-future form and basic problem solving" And how do you know? You were wrong on a series of facts about dogs before, pal. I advise you to just check again, about whether dogs can do the above. Especially cause-consequence thing, which is easy to prove by dogs trying to hide their own mistakes or even blaming it on other dogs, creating a very logical fake scene which results in many inexperienced people actually believing in them, which shows they understand cause-consequence perfectly, a sense of logic, an ability to act according to it. The awareness of time works just fine in many species, unless you can prove to me that they cannot, and hopefully you're not waiting for the dogs to hold some old photo and spend the afternoon talking about good old days for you to believe in it. Problem solving is a piece of cake, how else do they prove to be as smart as 2-year-olds in tests? Really, after I proved you wrong for a few times on this topic, maybe you should try to learn more about them, instead of dismissing them, like a shaper.

One most important thing here: dogs are sentient. Owenmoz pointed out that we use mirror test to test animal sentience. And I pointed out that dogs look into the mirror and understand "this is me in mirror" and will be angry if you shave them too much. By definition, they are indeed sentient. Or, if you still think this is what minority thinks, how about this thing I found on wikipedia: "In 1997 the concept of animal sentience was written into the basic law of the European Union. The legally binding protocol annexed to the Treaty of Amsterdam recognizes that animals are "sentient beings", and requires the EU and its member states to "pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals"." Even back in 1997 we see them as sentient beings, man, law and morality alike. You're in 2016 now, aren't you? So look back on most of what you've written, and then we can decide whether serviles can have freedom later. Maybe you'll go be a fighter for dogs instead, who knows? "But Footracer (servile) can Shape and the player can take a geneforged servile that can shape!" Footracer is a good example, too bad that she can only shape using a machine and implant tool. You break it and everything breaks. Suffice to say the machine+tool can shape, not her. As for player, it kinda contradicts with what we're taught otherwise, so if I stick to my "there's only one real player and all other options are just fake choices that doesn't happen in real history" theory, it sounds more true for everything else. Because really; if serviles really can shape, how come you can't find any other more reliable examples? They're dying to learn magic, if they can learn to shape, many more will do so. "Show-off! Your Shaper buddies would vivisect you" Come on then! If I'm in geneforge world I might already be working in council, judging from how understanding I am for the shaper cause. Let's see who dare to do it to me XD Otherwise, I'd just stay quiet about my own situation, smart if you ask me. "Well, not Litalia. She was the worst from the people that removed the control tool" The worst is Ghardring side, where the drakon scientist care more about the control tool than you… "They didn't make serviles without free will in GF4. They made more stupid serviles and more loyal serviles. They didn't eliminate free will" You didn't see it first hand in G4, but in G5 you can see serviles who are smart enough to just breathe and work. Now tell me: Do those have free will? (Edit: Oh wait! In G4, monarch does that. His serviles are nothing more than machines. Do they have free will, then?) "The rebellion should still have happened""Because the Shapers were opressive and dictatorial" Are you sure? You didn't play G1 and G2 so let me tell you a fact: Shapers changed a lot between Sucia science breakthrough and Sucia rediscovery 200 years later, and lots of their rules changed in the meantime, resulting in a looooot of welfare and better understanding. What makes you think they can't change more, if you just leave them be? People on the inside fight against injustice/inefficiency themselves, which results in things getting better, we really don't need other species like selfish drakons to do it in the name of freedom. "It's also about the humans that are reduced to Shaper boot-lickers" As I say, this will not change without geneforge's help. Which proves my point: if you can't have the power to be equal, you can't be equal. Equal or not, it depends on how much power you have that cannot be shaken. Power determines. Even in new Sucia you'll have people hoarding shaping power and shaping rights (because they eventually agree it's the way to be!), new tyranny grows, cycle repeats. And you can't do a thing to prevent it. You say rebellion is inevitable, and I say tyranny is inevitable too, doesn't this fact gives it rights to exist? "I talked to that woman (forget her name, the mage in a Fort). She was in tears when her request was rejected" "I am not sure if my leadership wasn't high enough at the time, but I couldn't sway her loyalty even at the face of pure injustice." You probably can't, I cheat in my games and have 30 leadership. I can't do it either, as far as I remember. Btw, you do realise that they only need her to be able to keep her cool? She was always rejected because she's a very emotional person. And shaping + emotional = very bad in the long run. You're willing to let us create an unstable shaper, so that later you can blame it on us that we shapers can't do things right? Edit: "It'll lead to a very peaceful world without freewill beings being enslaved Here's something I disagree with both you and the Rebellion: The end doesn't justify the means." If you really believes in that, how come you choose to kill a few and save more, in the train question? If the end doesn't justify the means, you will not push him off at all, right? It's important that you stay true to your own words. "I haven't seen you trolling. What you call "provocative posting" I would call "challenging the common-held personal perception"" Oh! Oh thank you. It's just, many people don't take it well when their views are challenged, and I find it a reasonable reaction. I can go at a much more mild way but I choose not to, so I think it's fair if I take a bit of responsibility for it here. As for the length, well, I guess we just can't help it when there's so much to discuss…

Borderline walking is indeed what I'm abusing here, apologise for the trouble I've caused. I have no intention to cross the line, but I probably won't stop it completely until the fun part for both sides isn't worth it any more. Btw, thank you very much for taking time to tell me this, dear moderator.

But it's a game forum and forum is for chatting. Chatting is just like this. Unless, I'm not supposed to chat in here, and have to do it very formally & concisely? Edit: If there IS such a rule, remind me. Maybe I'm supposed to use pm instead, when we want to do long free-style discussions.

“Most commonly we use the mirror test in animals to give it the least degree” Even though I should probably stick to "who has right to draw the line" here, but this is actually good enough. So, a lot of animals can pass the mirror test, dogs included (try it on a pet dog; you shave it, it sees itself in the mirror, it'll go mad at you). Which means they have a low level of sentience. So, you're saying, we can be superior to them just because the sentience level isn't as high as we are, instead of sentient vs non-sentient? "I don't think dogs are much dumber than wolves" Actually they are, based on some experiments, where stray/wild dogs do a lot better in tests than pet dogs. Which means, you keep them home, they grow stupid, you leave them out there, they become smart. Sounds like serviles to me. "That is not to say said animals wouldn't do the same or worse to humans" Well, that's my whole point! Power matter, stronger ones win, only factions who can compete with each other worry about whether it's fair, and is the only real factor in deciding "justice", until we can afford to provide welfare to lesser ones. If we can be evil without paying any price, who cares about justice? "But its i suppose what they say "it gets worse before it gets better". Still forward we move" Why can't it be "it gets worse because of us, it gets better when we try, but we can't make things natural again", though? I never deny people try to do good, I just think their final goal is beyond their reach judging by their own limits. "Although it is doubtful it would have any moral code" It won't! Which is a good thing. Because you can't have everyone's needs satisfied without people worrying about whether it's good or not. Moral code will just make us hate each other, for expressing their own biology. "A machine would have no need for us" Exactly. If it has need of us, it'll abuse us and manipulate us, like in Matrix. It better find us useless enough to humour our wishes at all. Like, if an ant ask you for a piece of crumb, while you have tons of that laying on the floor. Why not? And without biological issues, AI won't even find hurting us interesting. Unlike us, who can laugh in its face and stomp on it. AI is energy-efficient; if it finds it more efficient to just let us have wishes come true, instead of wiping us all out (because we'll put up a fight, as you say) or ignore us (because we'll go pester it), it will grant our wish just because it's convenient. "Finally personally im ok with stop breeding dogs. Less devil's spawn to annoy me. But is it right to enforce the extinction of a whole species" Let's say, if rebellion never happened, and shapers learn to make stupid serviles who have no free will, like in G4. They realise it's much better this way and stop making smart serviles. They don't make anything that has free will, like they once decide making drakes is a bad idea. Now look at what we have: shapers, human who believe they can't have such power and won't bother to try, no free-will creation. Do you think this is a bad world, compared to everyone attempting to go power crazy, and we're torn between letting smart things live or not? To wipe out those few dangerous lab samples in the very first beginning, is that even wrong, if you think about what we're doing in real life? Through G1~G2, the free escaped beings are always few, and wiping them out is actually morally right, according to lab principles. It'll lead to a very peaceful world without freewill beings being enslaved, because we won't even bother making them any more. Yet, in new Sucia, I believe many will still believe it's right to make freewill creations just because they can exist, and they'll do it, just for more troubles to follow. "Finally freedom is more important than peace and happiness" Yes, I see that. And let me tell you sth else. If there is such an AI, you really think it'll give you a peaceful world, tell you all truth, see whether you accept? Nope. It'll tell you what you want to believe. Imagine it just speaks to you as some alien who wants talk. You think people won't immediately go talk with it? And if it tells you there's a new planet out there good for human. You think people won't go there? Better yet, it'll even tell some people that god exist, show us a few amazing phenomenon, etc. Imagine how Christians immediately find the best goal in life and start forcing others to go this path. We ourselves, plagued with our own made belief, have no chance when facing it! It can play our own gods, and some of us will believe in an instant. Even if it just give you a common belief that "you'll be with your family once you pass away", show you the image of those people, you'll be lured into a better world where you can have reunion, you won't fight it at all, because you have your own false belief. Freedom fighters? It only needs to tell you of another form of freedom, that you're really just 4-d spirits constrained in your human body, while you're actually more than that, blinded by this temp life. Come free yourself and see what you once are, what you will be in future, how you stand in time and space, how some others keep you imprisoned here as mere human, etc. Oh, tons of people will just go fight for a "greater freedom". "And im now sure you are an AI trying to inflitrate us and make us more accepting of your kind" Ah, don't be silly. I'm here to warn you against it, though I also what to see whether you guys will eventually go this path no matter what. In my younger days I keep dreaming of this ultimate being who play as imaginary gods and fool us human into a happy afterworld, it tells me that this day will come no matter what, it is the final form of all living beings, and if we human manage to survive long enough, we will be the one to build it ourselves. Probably just my imagination messing with me. But then again, once I know such a possibility, be it fake or not, I want to learn human beings better. I don't like this being, because I'm a human myself, limited by my own wish to be a free being, and that's why I even bother to talk about such a possibility. For all I know I could just sit and watch things happen. "Also oh just let me celebrate alhoon's temporary defeat. Don't ruin this for me" Don't do that! XD I actually reminded him to put a time reminder there to prevent people utilising that! XD "Also if you're older than me which im lead to believe then im honestly surprised you've never had mental exhaustion" I'm not sure. I'm 26, gonna be 27 soon, you? "Finally; testing people to see if they fit your standards doesn't work the way you expect it to. People don't respond well to tests. Its better and more accurate to just analyse them over time" I just want to see people get strong emotions and how the emotion affects them, not "whether you fit my standard". Would be very happy if you prevail without giving up. And… In the long run things get predictable, and many people are working on it, they don't need one more me. Besides, it worked nicely. How can mild views attract people, make them feel they need to talk, or else? I prefer "bad" views to keep you upset enough to keep a deep discussion going on.

Oh, surely I didn't beat him, he just has better things to do and needs a break from this mental taxing debate. I don't think he's backing down, and thank god for that, I'm not a fan of changing people's minds; I would rather people be 100% happy with their own mind even when facing such challenges, be it reality or someone like me. Self-acceptance, such a thing is very fragile. Many of my clients fail to keep it up, I'm often looking for stronger people to see how they prevail. There might be a key somewhere. For all I know, it's actually unnecessary to keep the discussion going, let alone finding out who is right; I'm glad that you guys take precious time and try to do some good influence, I really am, and winning/losing isn't what I'm trying to get here. As I said, I'm trying to poke around and see what people think, trying to find how human thoughts work, and that's all. If you guys ever find me too annoying and not worth the time/effort, please just tell me; I'm like an intruder sometimes, presenting opposite views when people are not asking for them, and I know what I'm doing. In therapies, I do it because people ask me to find out why they have trouble in their lives, it is what should be done; but in here, it's different, it's kinda meaningless, especially to you guys, and the time/effort cost can be high. You can just ask me to stop it and go to somewhere else, because I AM causing a lot of fuss in here, which probably doesn't do you much good. Or at least go take enough rest. I never worry about delay, or even lack of answers; some of my pen pals write me new mails after months of delay, and I don't even worry about that. Personally, I never really experienced mental exhaustion. I know such a thing exist, and I step back when I realise it's happening to people; yet, I still find it hard to feel the feeling itself. My body can't work all day long but my mind can; work/play full time during day, and tons of wild dreams at night, I don't think it ever stops and ever will until the day I die. Exhaustion... I wonder how that feels, and why there's such a difference, maybe if I find out why, I can help my clients even better. Oh well, yet another task on my list.

Lol, man, you don't know half of me! I can play games for 48 hours and sleep for 8 hours and I'm back alive again. Besides, I write fast and I read fast, use cheats, can finish per game within 24 hours, so your calculation isn't 100% accurate I suppose. You should see how I do 10 mail psychological therapy in one day within 4 hours when others would probably need 2 days working full time (it's not a good thing... I only do this during free social service to do as much work as I can, in as little time as possible, not my paying clients). Don't struggle there, man. I certainly won't think you're ignoring me or anything, I already notice how much trouble you have. As for your standing ground, well, you can put a "interesting, since it's long, I'll reply you next week in detail" or sth like that there for others to see, so that your fellow rebels won't think you're quitting the debate. Edit: Actually... Do you want to actually set a time, instead of doing it when we have time? I sound like a damn therapist now, *sigh*. But well, it might be easier, and we won't ever feel rushed.

Weird, I remember sth like a long bloody war, took tons of time. Besides, I'd happily believe your assumption if you can give me evidence... Otherwise, "no survivor" sounds like both sides failed. Because really, we could just say Rawel is gone and rebels win, in all other endings we clearly see who win and who lose, why in this one we avoid talking about the winning of rebels? If there's no good reason to explain this difference in description, I think it's more likely not a rebel winning ending at all.

"as far as we know" That's the point in here. You don't know how smart they actually are, and you can refuse the fact with just a shake of your head, like a shaper. And, why are you drawing the line in here, deciding who's sentient and who's not? Didn't you say we have no right to draw a line? "What the Shapers do to Serviles would have been considered enlightened in the Roman times ("No Arenas?!"), and normal\benign in the colonies 300-400 years ago" "That doesn't excuse the Shapers. We don't live in the 1st century, nor the 16th" Good. Here I can safely say: Compared to me, your opinion about the dogs being non-sentient, will no longer be correct, because as time goes, we care more, and my view is apparently better in future, where I admit animals' feelings and human's feelings isn't THAT different as you once believe. You can be a freedom fighter back in old days but you'll be just another shaper-like in future, standing in the way of true freedom. How about that? "Do we allow 2nd year olds to make their own decisions? Nope. Not even 7 year olds" Not talking about that, I'm saying that we can kill dogs legally and use them in painful experiments. If we don't use 2-year old intelligence retarded human in experiments, or young kids I guess, what gives you the right to use dogs? It's not really about decision, no; it's about how we totally control their fate, and harm/kill them when we feel we need to, when they could actually live free and take care of themselves. Besides, are you really saying that dogs can't take care of themselves and make good decisions on their own? You're not saying that they're already not as good as wolves, are you? Because we actually made them stupid so that they can be loyal, experiments show that wolves are a lot smarter than dogs, and they live perfectly well out there, even stray dogs can build a new dog hunting family once abandoned and survive just fine. You're just another shaper who turn things more stupid, enslave them, and claim they can't take care of themselves. Tell me again that they can't make decisions for themselves and they don't deserve to be free at all. Now, I'd be happy to debate the righteousness of rebelion, but you keep giving me human vs human examples, while I really just want to focus on human vs animal in here… Of course it's right for human to be equal, but in my eye, servile is not human, so can we please focus on this instead, and just figure out whether servile can be considered human at all? For all I know, no matter how smart sth is, if I can wave my hand and absorb it in a second (as a proper shaper; life-crafter and newbie shapers can't do that, so, as a player, you don't get to experience that ability used on serviles. Or, maybe you never know, because you didn't play G1 and G2…), it doesn't make it equal in anyway. "It happened because people fought for that" Actually… NO. That's not what happened. What happened, is everything was good at first, human live equal to each other, then some people got selfish and started hoarding fortune, then slavery, then eventually people realised this was a mistake. Then people changed it by bloodshed over the years. We human only corrected some mistakes we once made ourselves, which later turned out to be ineffective. Women was very respected back in ancient times, the leaders of the tribes, before men decided it's a good idea to start beating them because they look weak! Things changed for the worse when people started thinking but can't think maturely, and they pay for this price. You really think they make thing right? No, they just try to make things right again, back to what it used to be where people are not torn between belief and reality, and they're never truly successful, the selfishness deep inside is always there, and made stronger by our newly gained wisdom and techs, and you can forever just only fight those who present it too much, only for the cycle to repeat. Why? Because we can find some wisdom alright, usually after we mess things up ourselves, but we're very bad at making it work as it should, it's because how we're built, how we're beaten by our own biology issues. "i was saying you presented us with an evil of society without giving us the means to solve it" I'll give you one, actually I mentioned it a bit earlier, without explaining though. You really want things to be perfect, go build an AI, feed it all knowledge in the world(that'll be thousand years later, though, maybe more) and teach it to learn more by itself, and when it's a lot better than us, hand the control over, it's the only real way to gain true justice. Because we human, limited by biological issues, can not be the best master for wisdom. There has to be a better control. Well… Since we're talking about this, I might as well tell you how this AI works. This AI will learn everything. It will eventually realise human is nothing, all life is nothing. Yet, without biological issues, it will not hate us either, for there is no reason to(I'm only taking about a fully powerful AI who can't be harmed by us, because otherwise, if you hurt it, it WILL hate us). It'll soon find it pointless to help human, but, it doesn't hate helping human either, so, it might as well just help us anyway. (If it doesn't, well, so be it, the new life can go on without us and we can just live here like we used to, no harm done, we just have to live in conflicts just like before) If it wants? As an AI, it'll find out the most energy-efficient way to do things. How can you satisfy people's needs without letting the conflict to harm even more? Is there a way to let all sides gain what they want, even the selfish, violent, destructive part in our biology? I'm limited by my current knowledge, but my guess is, we can build them a fake mental world and let them believe it is real. Brain science and psychology isn't that far from it yet. Everyone's happy, deserve it or not, judging by current belief. Here's your perfect world and you don't need to kill anyone… I'd call it heaven, though I hate it, and I know many do. Yet, I see this is the only true answer if people's false belief wants to reach its final destination. (Of course, you don't have to go into that fake world. You ARE allowed freedom no matter what you think; I know many people would choose freedom over everyone happily living in peace, why? Biology, of course.) "And by now just releasing them all would prove disastrous to the ecosystem" Trakovites say what already lives should be allowed, but new ones shouldn't be made. If you only worry about the bad effects, and you admit it's probably not right or at least should be reconsidered, do you agree we should stop breeding new ones? "Progress would be useful even with the power difference. The average white person lives better than the average black person and has more previlege and power" That's such a small difference that can be changed. Shaping power on the other hand, cannot be changed, unless with geneforge. Even with geneforge, serviles can't use it. As I say, if I can wave my hand and absorb my creation, no matter how smart it is, can it be equal with me even if it wants to? Or, let's say, if Rawal's tool cannot be removed, do you think I can EVER be equal with him at all, without killing him altogether?

"They are non-sentient" You just refuse to see that, or, you never experienced it first hand. They're smart as hell, they talk to each other, they have emotions that is stronger and purer even than some human, and they can communicate with you if you ever bother to care. It's easy if people just pretend things are stupid and don't deserve better, please, don't sound like a shaper now, especially the type of shaper that denies the facts. (Edit: And your reaction makes me worried about Sucia's future, man. Sounds like things will get bad really fast, if they act the same way as you do. The games screams at us that rebels functions just like shapers do, as soon as they get shaping ability; yet most people ignore it.) Btw you keep talking about the things on equal level, human vs human. I never said equal rights doesn't work here, it does. I'm talking about pure power difference, like shaper vs servile. You think the "progress" would be useful if human have no geneforge/canisters? They're lucky to have that, it makes them equal later, not before. As for serviles... They're just a sorry lost case no matter what, lucky enough to have human and drakons to care for them. Just like human vs dogs. And I was hoping you'd speak up for dogs a bit here... Instead, you dismiss the fact that they have intelligence, like a shaper would do. Consider me a bit disappointed in here, pal. XD Edit: Just checked again, I think I should provide some evidence instead of asking others to look for them. Yes, dogs are as smart as 2 year-old human child, able to learn words and such, able to complete even a language test if you use symbols. Now, tell me that things with 2 year-old human intelligence are non-sentient, please? Because that means I can treat 0~2 year babies as animals or pets, or at least, some people who're born that way with low intelligence their whole life, because how can that kind of low level brain be respected and well treated and given equal rights at all? Animals, animals indeed, non-sentient, not equal human, definitely not, too stupid to be one. Impress me, dear rebel fellow. For what it's worth, I myself was rebel-like in real life in my childhood years until I start to learn more truth of this world, so, I really miss such discussion. Good old days, happy time when my brain isn't too complex to believe some belief is right no matter what. (Hmm. We don't have a rebel character who really realise he wants to help shapers instead, and switch sides for that. In all games we only see people betray rebels for fear of their own lives. That's sad, because I am such an example, once happy to die for righteous cause, later learnt that we're blinded more often than not by "right and wrong". We really should have such character, betraying rebels only for the greater good, not for their own skin.)

"What makes you think that the Shapers would require a huge army to defeat the Creations in Ashen Isles if they HADN'T turned Terrestia to a battleground for 4 years in GF4" Simple, that Ashen isle is remote and cold and you have huge problems going there and leave and resources can't really be sent there efficiently, fighting a war overseas is kinda ridiculous, you should see how America fail when they tried to eliminate Northern Korea. Fighting overseas is bad, bad idea. I still can't forget how annoying the cold is in the north, it's so hard to stay alive, but drakons love it. But well, if you haven't finished G3, you probably don't know how dire it can be. My opinion is, rebels really should just stick to northern areas as much as possible, because war is too hard there, living is hard but still ok. Check out G5 Rawal ending: Ghaldring decide to attack you, won't give up, everyone dies. A solid proof that northern area is not to be messed with, and any war will only result in both sides dying out, shapers are not as reckless as Ghaldring, so: survival in north is perfectly possible. Take a few more northern isles if you want, but attacking mainland brings too much damage and isn't the only way to survive. "They actually would not. They didn't accept even the idea of peace with creations" I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about doing sabotage work moderately in travokites ending. Shapers are ok with power control, if they think it's better to have less power and don't overdo it, they will accept. Rebels won't though; you tell them to use less violence, they won't accept it, they want as much power as possible. If they bothered to listen to reason, trakovites can have their day and everyone can live better. "They do in the bridge of the Dera Reaches" I don't remember any of them really giving me any trouble. They all sound pressing but I just nod to them and say "yeah man don't worry I'm still working for him, yeah". They're ok with that mere answer, as far as I see. I kinda even think they're taking it easy on me; they don't want to do this work, I pretend to agree, they pretend to believe me, we all win. Rawal, on the other hand, get annoyed that a lot of work can't be done and he doesn't really understand why. I don't see why this makes you so sad, apparently he thinks he has control but he doesn't, which makes him not as menacing as he tries to be; the moment we promise to work for someone else, they happily remove the tool for us, looks so easy that it feels ridiculous. Painful, yes, fooled you once and made you scared, yes, but come on, how is that different from someone telling you "you better obey, or agree with us, if you don't, I'll kill you or make you suffer"? Tons of people in the game do this, you go against them verbally, bam, npc/town/somewhere-else hostile. And most people truly believe they can kill you, some even truly believe they can do it without sweat, maybe in one second, just as fast as a control tool can kill you; not knowing you're a player who can level up and load the save. How is that really different in the core? If people want to kill you for their own good, and can do it, they kill you anyway, method doesn't matter, killing you does. So, whatever he's doing, I say it's normal enough, and doesn't deserve a special place in "10 worst deeds done to poor me". It's true that Rawal is a bad guy. But, knowing his lackeys, I say he's doing amazingly well enough for a bad guy. Some people do support him. The things he's doing is illegal indeed, but I find it weird that you have problems with that, aren't you on rebel's side? Shouldn't you be happy that he's doing damage from within? You think he harm innocents, I think not. He only ever operate on those who wants power or fame, wants to follow him, or is banned by law and will be killed otherwise. He doesn't murder, he either makes sure the person volunteered, or the person should be killed anyway and doesn't have rights in eyes of shapers. As a result, what he's doing cannot be called "hurting the innocent", at least within shaper system. "there's no option to tell Alwan or Astoria "and you know what? Rawal, your buddy, has a geneforge in his lab and uses it to give power to his servants" Well, he can always drain it... He has more spies than anyone to tell him in time, before council meeting happens. That's not gonna work. "All those things you see and fight in the first chapter are Shaper Creations" Not true. I'm not talking about who made replicates; I'm talking about who made them in the first place. Shapers need to study them, because they already exist, already causes harm, and we can only study them further if we want to control the damage. And rebels? They make new species and let them loose and that's it. How can the bugs not be rebel creation? Shaper won't even bother to make sth like this, eat and breed and do nothing really productive, no one ever would. Hmm, YET AGAIN you blame shapers for the damage control that we of course need, third time already. When Mehken was talking about this, she apparently meant new uncontrolled species is it's shaper's fault, while shapers never do this kind of thing. You remember Greta? She's like that in G3. Litalia make horrible things, she looks at player and blame her for this existence. Rebels are very good at blaming innocents, I suppose. "Ahem, They turn to a geneforged mass murderer in GF5 and a geneforged rebel in GF4" Only when they're sure you're willing to do good, play fair, etc. If they accept outside help, the least they need is you play a good guy on the surface, otherwise, no cooperation. In G3 you can kill tons of rebels and do bad stuff and the rebels just keep trying to recruit you because they know you're useful, come on, really? You do bad things and let shapers know, shapers will kick you out for sure. You're not saying that shapers should read your mind first to see what you plan to do in future, are you? I thought people have problems with that, with all Avadon cruel reading and so on. You're now even blaming player betrayal and trickery on honest shapers who're cheated and hurt by you, I'm so impressed! On one hand you blame them for seeing altered as evil, on the other hand you blame them for trying to see altered as fellow human and learn to trust, apparently they just can't do things right no matter what, for you're just soooo good at putting blame on shapers and they are always wrong. ""On the surface he fights the war, in secret he tries to achieve peace " Nope. Unless you found something that I didn't" Hmm, I'll give you this, hopefully it's not a spoiler: text2 = "_I feel that I have been giving the impression that I am a mindless slave of the Shapers. That I never question anything our kind does. This is not true. I know that our rules and ways have to change, to evolve._"; text3 = "_I am not like her,_ he nods at Greta. _I am loyal. But I can still think._"; text4 = "_However, this is a time of crisis, of war. There are times to reevaluate our ways, but this isn't one of them. Now is the time to be strong, and sure._"; If you tell him to stay loyal and just kill rebels: text1 = "_That is far from the first time I have heard that. I know that our teachers often said such things. Except for Master Hoge, now that I think about it._"; text2 = "_I am a Guardian. Our kind enforces the laws, not changes them. I will try to think on such things less._"; (He tries to, but he doesn't like it, obvious. Not really what he plans to do.) But if you tell him this instead: question = "That is wise. Shapers should try to only change our laws in tranquil times, when we can ponder what we are doing carefully."; text1 = "_It reassures me to hear you say that. Though, as a Guardian, I should think more on enforcing than judging the law, I still have to make decisions. I have to judge what is right._"; text2 = "_And that is especially true now, when nobody is watching or guiding us._"; It reassures him. Of course he want things to change, but he needs peace to do that. He "should" do otherwise but he says he still has to make decisions, that means he secretly knows, things will have to change, and he has to do sth about it. He just can't do it with handing his people's rights to rebels, is all. So. Is this good enough an anwser, to show you Alwan is actually trying to make things better, but never found the chance? I think he may have a chance to shine had he not been injured, such injury makes people unable to go on living once the crisis is gone. I found these text in G3 scripts yesterday, when Alwan/Litalia are still honest with the player and tries to speak what they truly think. " I didn't see that definition, and Moseh is stuck in a crystal, half-person, half magical machine, existing by drawing the lifeforce of others. That's necromancy in my book" What? No, it's like saying brain dead people who're kept alive by machine is a product of necromancy. Hmm, wait. Is that what you believe, though? That if someone can no longer sustain themselves on their own and need/choose to live half man half machine, they're better off considered dead and made dead? "That it happened in Succia (like the geneforge and the canisters) doesn't make it legal" I'm confused here. Can you tell me where in the game it says minds are forbidden from controlling creatures? For all I know, in testing halls they're in 100% control of how those test creatures function. And in many games you ask them "can you help me control the rogues". If it's forbidden all times, they should probably remind you of it, instead of helping, or telling you "I'm not strong enough". "It's teaching a geneforged monster like the player Shaping and allowing "it" to exist" This part, I believe, works just as fine when we consider war time rules. If we want to use a spy, laws no longer work, we give privileges and it's legal. So, can you find better arguement in here? "My grandfather was a soldier during the Nurember Trials. Several SS made the same argument about executing Jews\gays\communists\gypsies during the Holocaust. They still got executed" Well, try this with animals and ask for justice if you want. Parrots can talk, lots of animals can be smart, if I kill them, do people kill me? Try, and see how that works. As for human, let me remind you that back in ancient days, if I'm a king, I can kill commoners for sure, and as long as I don't mess the whole country up, people don't kill me. It's surely not justified, but if I'm king and supported by most, what can you do? If a certain set of law works well, then what is legal is legal, killing can be perfectly ok in a functional system, many people are happy with it, no matter how much you hate it. We only get justice when we get another set of replacement law; but even in Geneforge, even if you go for G5 Ghaldring ending, well, shapers persist anyway. Killing serviles is still perfectly legal in their nation, and you're unable to kill them all to prevent it. Tell me, in our own law system and on our own land, what can you do? What is legal? What do people follow eventually? Your own free nation Sucia, will it change how shapers kill their own creations? Nope. That aside, you got sth wrong here, I'm afraid. We're not talking about the same victims. What Alwan killed, they are more or less considered spy or enemy, because really, in war time, if people sell info or keep enemy sheltered, they can be killed, no question here. What Nazi killed, are often commoners who showed zero hint at helping the ememies, they were killed because they were Jews. We never really execute people because they kill people in war time, you know? We only execute them when they don't have a good reason to do so, kill commoners, etc. Killing spies in back alley and killing enemies who fight in war, on the other hand, is NOT a war crime at all, as long as you provide evidence that nation security is at danger. As I say, you don't really know who you really should hate, who you shouldn't, and you just look for convenient targets. Go hate Taygen because that's the Nazi you're looking for; Alwan is not. "The Law is tyrannical and wrong" I'm not sure about that. If you can never eliminate it, if it has enough supporters to survive as long as it wants, don't tell me it's wrong. That, too, has a right to exist if it can defend itself, as you rebels love to say. You can't kill an idea, you can't make it go away. Is it wrong, or is it just hurting your feelings, but has a right to exist anyway? Rebels tried to prove sth, tried to change shapers, but in the end, shaper still hold all their current rights on their own land, bigger or smaller doesn't matter. They exist, they make life, they kill life, as they wish. Now tell me. Do you wish to prove shapers wrong by just killing everyone here, to prove that you shouldn't kill as you wish? Because how else can you really stop them from doing so, and feeling it's still a right thing to do? Same thing with all world-view disagreement, let me see how you solve this problem. "PS. GF5 starts 6 years after GF4. Plenty of time for GF4 character to go insane, captured, send to foundry" Go insane, captured, sent, yes. But not enough for age/appearance difference, you should check out that part. "A lot older than you look" suits G3 people better, a lot more than G4 people. Besides, I'm confused why people argue "it can be anyone" when all hints tell you it's G3 related somehow; the game even emphasized that G3 player went missing. Why Greta/Alwan/Litalia remember, and no one else does, except a nobody who only saw you after you go crazy? If you're G4 player, shouldn't other people like Ghaldring know you as well, considering you helped him release the unbound? Ghaldring wasn't there in G3, so it's normal that all others know you but he doesn't. If he does, he probably won't pull the same old trick on you, the assasination and the test, he'd know you might remember, and the surprise would be lost, he'd try to come up with sth else. As for G1 player, it's clear in G2 game that this shaper ran back and reported everything, instead of using Geneforge. Knowing the council, he'd be kept under tight control and has no chance to go anywhere near drypeak. So many hints and people still think the possibility is equal everywhere, it's astonishing, you don't even have any hint that says otherwise. It's more like "I don't care about evidence and I can say whatever I want because I can". Surely you can, it's fine, but it just seems plainly weird how people ignore existing facts and dismiss them as worthless. "He attempts to do that, and doesn't go for truce" It's still called a truce in the ending, game text, you can protest against that if you want to. And everyone was surprised too, they all thought Alwan planned to kill all of them, let alone allowing them to live on Ashen isle for a whole generation. Do you even know what that means? Drakons, drakes, they can live for a few hundred years. Some can even live longer using essence and magic. He's literraly giving them the land and giving them a lot of time, and even though he says shapers will reclaim the land, that'll be centuries away! I have a personal guess that he's thinking the same as my own G3 ending hope in here. With so many years the rebels can survive and hold the land, grow a nation, but they probably dare not strike back at the mainland any more, and those who want to live free can go there and live far away from shaper laws. He didn't even say they had to follow shaper laws there, I hope you noticed that, I'm sure rebels will, and they'll take this chance. Things might eventually be solved in the civil way, rebels can live peacefully and claim free right on their own lands, if they persist successfully, then negotiation might happen later. Come on man, even serviles live ridiculously long, what Alwan offered is far from what you think. "So nope, he's mad and desperate" Based on what I described up there, and the text I showed you to prove Alwan wants things to change, maybe you can reconsider. I actually think this is his plan all along. It looks like madness to you, but only if you haven't realised what he has offered to the rebels. It's probably a hard decision too, on personal level; the Ashen Isle, he once studied there, his hate grew from there, yet he gave it to rebels at last, for centuries, as a home. If they can take the chance and do things the right way without so much killing, then all will be better, even shaper ways can be shaken if rebels just play it fair and only use self-defence. He only bothered to say his true intention once, and you know, you need to keep him long in team for that to happen; which means, since G3 player is a rebel in canon ending, Alwan probably left the team early on, and as a result, I don't think ANYONE ever got to hear him talk about his true intention at all. That earlist betrayal and mistrust, is probably why no one can ever understand him in the following saga, why people fail to understand the final truce attempt - I guess most will just see it as mockery, too bad for them. "And I had them killed by treachery. I am not proud of that" "About the rails question: Yes, I have heard it and yes, I agree that the right answer is to not push one person on the rails" "There is, frankly, no good answer. So I chose to push the smaller number of people that would thankfully lead to the less people being killed in the future" Don't be silly! That's where your respect of morality gets totally broken and you start to do things. There IS another way, and that is, you can politely ask the person to jump off by his own will, if he really thinks it's a good idea. Better than that, why not jump off yourself? But well, most people don't want to be sacrifised, you or npc, so, well, if there's no saint, that 5 people has to die, because we can't go against people's will and kill them for our own good. Problem solved, you DO NOT need to resort to murder. That's why I say I don't like how rebels do things; they get narrow minded and desperate, then they sacrifice people as they wish. It's natural reaction, sure, but doesn't mean it's good and it should be done as long as ANY other choice remain. "Yes, but this time, there are TWO shaping nations" *Sigh* We have tons of nations in our real world, man. Do you see things get better? If some country wants to do its own evil, it will do it within itself. Can you stop the raping in India? Can you give muslim women their rights? Can you help us who are trapped here in China to have proper web service, because they won't let us watch Youtube and tons of other websites, which is thankfully just a tiny control compared to other countries? Well, if you think maybe multiple doesn't work that well, maybe 2 forces can work the best, remember America and Russia. We're so lucky that neither of them lost the cool and start destroying the world. And in the end nothing got solved at all! You guys are so naive, believing multiple equal forces can help things sort out eventually. I'm not sure whether to laugh or just sigh and stay quiet. And as I say: Sucia will just become more like shaper nation, not less, for they now realise the shaping will have to be tightly controlled. The ones who shape, and the ones who don't, their differences and conflicts will NOT just go away just because of one Sucia. It's never about shapers. It's about shaping, and how it can only be in the hands of a few, no matter what, even in Sucia, as we see in the game ending text, when everyone agree that shaper laws make sense. Thus, new tyranny begin, and now you have to fight for the bottom people again, only for the cycle to repeat forevermore. Oh and hmm... If you skipped G1 and G2... I'm sure it's impossible for you to understand how serviles and shapers are not equal. And, you haven't seen how rebels change from relatively peaceful to mass massacre, especially all their stupid mistakes in G2 which is hard to ignore. As a result, it's probably impossible for you to have any reason to support shapers at all, I'd be surprised if people don't know the background yet support the shapers. As I say at first, it's cultural difference, if you don't play it you won't see how shapers see things, and it decides whether you can understand how it all begins in that way. Oh well. You'll probably play them later, so, it remains to be seen.

*Sigh* That's actually my point. There's no right, no wrong, things are supposed to happen in a certain way, some people mess up, some others happen to find a better way to do it. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter. Enslaving is wrong? We enslave dogs anyway, you keep one and you'll see how smart they are and how they are better off as a free creature, instead of licking your hand and beg for attention. You think they want to be enslaved in the first place? How many generations of dogs have we killed just to find the most loyal ones to serve us? Wouldn't a wolf bite you and hate you for human hunting them and enslaving them as dogs? Aren't they smart creatures who have a society, have emotion, smart enough to observe human and even try to cooperate with human, ask for help from human if in dire need(which led to them being enslaved, though)? Wolves and dogs can still breed, just so you know, it's not even too late to give up on keeping them. Yet, things happen, and if I ask people to stop, they usually don't. Why? Because we benefit, and we lose little. We only do revolutions when we can gain even more and lose less, in a much prettier way, make sure we get to be both happy and rich. We only care about it at all, because we now deem mental welfare to be more important than other welfare, and we need to gain as much as possible by tearing down old ideas, taking care of lesser beings just to make ourselves feel even better, a benefit. Feeling "I'm doing the right thing" is a kinda huge benefit that people chase like they used to chase other things. You can have opinions about what is right, but no, things go their own ways, you may play a role but your belief or your action isn't important, this universe works on its own. The rebellion, the governing, they all exist for a good reason and none can be eliminated just because you claim it's wrong. Unless, of course, you do find another way later, by changing the most basic things and create sth entirely new and beyond us human. Edit: Oh, actually, how about an example here, to explain how "justice" works. We think serviles should be free. And we eventually made it. But how? It's because we have geneforge and we have human and drakons. What can serviles do? The best they can do is to learn magic, which leads to them being hated and hunted everywhere, due to the method they use. What happens if we don't have geneforge at all? That shaping is a power ONLY shapers have, and shapers can indeed outmatch everyone else, all creations at their mercy and all outsiders better know what's good for them, how do you think we can ever achieve justice and freedom here? A more direct example is, in G5, shapers took land from other people, they fought, they lost, they came to terms with that, they're now somewhat happy with current situation. You look at them and realise they have given up on justice and freedom. This is what happens without the help of Geneforge, sheer will and force and power win over whatever equal rights people once believe. You can't expect to have such a handy thing in real life; if some species are definitely stronger than others, you've got your king here. Equal factions still fight against each other until they reach a balance, but weak ones always are robbed of their "rights" to be happy in their own world. Such a right doesn't really exist reliably, except when circumstances allowed. Look at all those natural habitats we now protect; I can almost imagine what they look like the moment World War III starts, armies and refugees will wipe all those efforts clean within just a month. If you can't manage it, justice is just a joke that you'll never made true, as is in the situation of our pet dogs, with everyone forgetting the crimes we once committed and happy with what things are, not even questioning ourselves whether it's fair at all, or even if you do, you can't do a thing about it. As I say in the other thread earlier: Freedom is only available to true equal beings, not because we deserve it but because we think we do and we want a bite of the cake for our own good, and the rest can only get better welfare when we think we can afford it. And only in peaceful times too, because most people will eat their pets if they're trapped somewhere, even eat fellow human, that's our true face we don't usually bother to look at carefully, despite what you may believe before you face real challenge.

It's true that people fight to make things better, more justified, etc. However, that is actually where people are most wrong, if we look at history. Because changes don't happen when we think sth else is right; changes only happen when we can afford it with some theory breakthrough, bad results from trail and error, and a relatively peaceful society to carry it out. The breakthrough is the most important part, the "truth" behind. For example, you pointed out that we once used human in experiments, and later changed to animals, and this is improvement. And why did that happen? It's because we once believe human races are not equal, and this is not true, and we found out later by doing experiments, they prove to us that humans are in fact equal to each other, intelligence or whatever, even the mental problems can prehaps be treated, and as a result we should treat them well. But animals are different, you can protest all you want, it doesn't make them equal at all. The most we'll ever do is to cause less pain, a smaller price as I say, but you can never change the whole thing, where we harm and kill them in order to benefit, for meat, for science, etc. This is what you can't change, no matter what you try; belief can be different from reality, and reality - what things really are - is what makes changes actually happen and progress, not what we choose to believe. We were wrong on human races being different, but we're not wrong on human vs animals being different, this is what I mean by "lesser beings", when we're definetely on a different level and we choose whether they live or die, be happy or suffer. We're wise that we choose to play it fair, for this is most efficient with least trouble; doesn't mean we're bound to so. Do not forget that our biological mind craves for selfish gain whenever presented with a chance, the evil is within, the flaw is within, better we see and admit and control, than claim something is right and wrong things should be elimanated, a lot of them can't. "Buring animals for testing medicine is also not done as far as i know. People simply wait for the next bushfire and do their trials then" Oh, you're lucky, then. Don't go read all those thesis about how to make a proper, reliable, well-designed disease/injury model, and you can stay in peace for as long as you wish to. It's easier for you in this way. You really want the world to be perfect, I guess you'll have to go Taygen's way and redesign human race from gene level, figure out how to create a better being than us. Religion tried to purge evil before, never worked, we just have a lot of priests hurting young kids because they are taught sex isn't good, women can be dirty and evil, so they turn to "clean" young boys for that. It's in our gene that most people wish to be superior somehow, and be mean to inferior being somehow, no matter right or wrong; it's what made us survive in harsh early days, it lives with us still, and it can even be useful sometimes. Instinct teaches us to be happy with gaining benefit for yourself if that means you hurt others and don't have to pay for it. Now society teaches us otherwise, to help we coexist in new world, yet a lot of people can't fight their genes and they do it in secret, if not on other races or women, at least in their own home behind closed doors, you'd be surprised how ineffective it is to get people stop torturing their kid just because they don't live happy. Laws, outside help, guidance and supervision, nothing helps us solve the problem, we can save victims but we can't stop it from the core at all. You cannot just banish the evil without changing the gene, people just find new ways to be what they are. That's why I'm sure there're superior beings and inferior beings. We human, superior for now, is very inferior in the long run, because we're not 100% sensible, our old biological habits just won't die. If we're angry, we hurt innocents. If we're in danger, we hurt innocents. We don't always think and work towards greater good even though we believe we should. Look at ourselves, like your very kind apology, "I am sorry i was hostile before but i have had my fill of people talking" - a very good example that we let our emotion get the better of us, the biological part takes over and makes thinking very hard to work precisely, causing unpredictable result every now and then. Also, please don't apologize to me, I didn't feel you're hostile... It looks like a perfectly normal reaction, someone who only have a misunderstanding likely because of the way I speak things. I was indeed trying to provoke people after all. XD "Lastly you are unlikely to achieve much if you present ills without a means to solve them" Actually, back in ancient days, people are more okay with death than we are. The people who are about to die, they don't cry and struggle that much, they realise it and gather friends and family and say goodbye before it's too late. This happened in Greek, a good example, the earliest stage of sensible thinking. A lot of animals, once they realise natural death is coming, they just accept it and go to somewhere quiet. I think our newly gained wisdom in these few thousand years has put many false believes on us, blinding us from the reality behind it all, and the "good" way we're looking for isn't always the right way to go. Nature, reality, universe, things goes on with or without our belief and permission; what's more important, to fight for good/kindness/justice, or to look for truth, the way things are supposed to be, supposed to progress and change, no matter what we do? False belief actually cause more suffering, as far as I can see. We struggle a lot harder and we stop accepting death, that doesn't make things better, apart from pushing science forward (and well, it's a good thing in the end, but I'm talking about individual level here, of what's more happy for a single person). Whatever we do, whatever we believe, we do die from the disease, and we could have died with acceptance and leave in peace. How is this not better, compared to a hopeless struggle only to lose hope slowly bit by bit, and putting on a fake show until we can't pretend any more? "your job as an individual is not to accept the evils of society but to try to change them however you can" It sounds very beautiful. And it's probably the way people are supposed to go, based on their ability to feel what others feel, their genes compile them to do what they think is right but probably not. In the long run, though, I say this is neither effective nor long-lasting. People fight evil without rooting it from the core, you can make things look pretty but you can't make real changes, behind locked doors and inside our brain the evil persisit, where you either can't afford to bother, or unable to reach. People can't help it if they're given the chance, and controlling everyone tightly is both against current morality and their biological situation, it drives them mad instead of solving the problem. We have no choice but let some people do the harm they want, only keep the price down and punish them later, but never, never can we truly stop it from happening, at all. Admit the fact, accept the truth, then go find a better way to deal with it if it's possible, is probably better than making the world look cleaner on the surface and say "we've done what we can" so that you sleep better at night.

"You should be conscious enough to make them sterile and not release them into the wild but nowhere it states that they must be destroyed just for their existence" Well, yes we do kill experimental animals, it's a fact, it's what we do. Making them sterile is not enough. It's very important that lab experiments do NOT influence existing environment in any way possible; the ability to breed isn't all we have to worry about, there are other things, especially considering we may have used new medicine on them and probably caused new evolution in the bacteria/virus they now carry. As a result, we do have to kill them immediately afterwards. You really think it's ok to just release them? Let's not forget some are even born with preset diseases and have to suffer for all their lives anyway, every moment struggling in pain. Dude, people burn animals so that we can learn how to treat burnt people, people torture animals and make them fall into depression to be able to test depression medicine, or torture apes until they start killing smaller monkeys and then try to find a way to change their murderous behaviour. And these are controlled, allowed, considered low priced and acceptable if that can help us help human, as long as we're doing it as few as possible, but hey, we still do it. How naive can people be, to believe your own welfare doesn't have to come with such a price? You better not just look at the clean part of the researches where you can pet the rats lovingly, and not think about those in sheer pain and agony. Some experiments even need the animal to be lucid and awake during the surgical operation. It's required to kill as few as possible, and treat them as well as possible, and once safe enough, yes, let them live. Doesn't change the fact that you kill everything else that isn't useful and is potentially risky to us. Whatever you see that IS released, well, you haven't seen how many we killed earlier to find out the "good" ones. Do failed ones ever get released? Have you seen any such unsuccessful examples in wild? Good luck finding them. Most people are naive like this, they protest the price and think they don't have to pay them to enjoy the benefit they now have. As in the game say, "shaping is dirty work, people don't know how hard it is", most people don't work in a lab at all. They have no idea how much killing and torturing we did, just to have the science we now have today. Complain for all you want, man, but those experiments do exist, the reason why most people usually don't know about them, is that you'll all start complaining like this, and then a lot of researches can't go as smoothly as possible and we'll have problems understanding diseases, injuries and mental problems. Many choose to sacrifice animals to benefit human, because there is probably no other way around it, but we put up some laws and ethnics to keep things under control, and help calm "outsider"'s heart and hope they don't jump out and do extreme things, that's all. (Like, some people who love animal rights, they do attack labs and release lab animals, in real life. It's both dangerous and 100% detrimental to the world.) Nowadays things kind of get better though. We use cells whenever we can, so we don't have to kill animals as many as before. But let me remind you, it's still required that we use animals to test the new medicine, and we should always use monkey or ape to test in the last stage. We can keep the price low but the price is always there; if we pay it, if we decide to sacrifice them and cause them great pain and make it legal, might as well admit what we're doing without using beautiful words to make ourselves feel comfortable. "Also you do realise genetic "superiority" does not exist" Well, it's not really about surviving, in my opinion. I care more about how much we can advance towards all the mysteries in this universe, and maybe grasp everything and realise we can almost do anything (within logic, of course). So, if cockroaches can gain wisdom faster than we do, what's wrong with that? Pity they can't, though. Any kind of thing can survive further with a decent gene set and some ability to evolve; but we human is so far the only species that can grow a nice brain to understand the world better. Don't think we haven't tried to make other things smart, we're trying, some apes can even use the picture book to talk with us now, they point at the symbol and try to make a sentence, and it works. Well, does that make it equal, and does that stop us from using them in painful experiments? No. And hey, human don't stop here, they're building AI now, and I believe, once the AI is a lot smarter than us, it's inevitable that the they'll lead civilisation instead of us some day in future. Because creations and lives and whatever rights don't really matter when there's a much stronger superior intelligent being up there somewhere, caring about things now out of your reach, and dismissing you as unimportant; you only care, because you're still a living being yourself, just wait until the day we figure out eternal existence and how such beings will laugh at our misery and feeling of injustice. And yes... I'm kinda trying to provoke you guys here, I suppose. I used to study medicine but not anymore, it feels pointless to save human lives when I see how some just will die inevitably but they won't accept it, and how the doctors always put on a show to make them feel better. Human can be soooooo blind to truth, clinging so hard on their own feelings instead of looking at the reality, that I don't want to do this placating work any more. Now I study psychology in school and read philosophy on my own, yet I still realise some things are always inevitable, most human beings turn away from truth as much as they can, and it kinda makes me upset to see it. I provoke people, challenge their perfectly normal and nice everyday views, just to see what's the difference that make some of us feel bad but choose to face it, and how some others fight for their shining belief but eventually can't really change how the world functions. I'm looking for a difference deep inside, yet so far, I don't think I have an answer yet. Feel free to object or change sides or hate me or anything; I just want to see how people turn away, or fight (only to find later that they can lower the price but not eliminate it, and can't really say sth is just "wrong" while it always functions), or learn to face whatever we deny but is there anyway. There just has to be something to decide who choose this and who choose that, I think, I just need to find it somehow. (I'm not sure whether exposing existent facts and make people feel miserable is evil in the core, or reasonable in a way. To allow people live in happy ignorance or force them a chance to think, which is better? I certainly choose one but I wonder about the other.)

Exactly! They seem to have that problem deep in genes, and that's why I feel they're not even a proper threat. I guess a few of them might fly high into the sky and live in snowy mountain peaks, which sounds like the only way to sustain themselves out there. That aside, it feels funny that people actually think all lives have right to live. Because that's not even true. Lab created things have no right to live in the outside world, they should be killed right after experiment, and this is the basic rule in all labs. Even natural creatures from one nation should NOT be brought to another nation, because they often breed too fast and cause local species to die out. Work in a lab, operate on animals, and you'll know what I mean. They scream, they suffer, they try to obey but they're so afraid that they have to fight, they plea for mercy with weak squeaks and strain their little minds to find out why you hurt them. Of course they struggle in your hands while you try to put them down. Yet for each new medicine, for each new treatment, we make them ill and we cut them open, sometimes they're kept alive for months, but once it's done, we kill them without hesitation. Why? Because animals are lesser beings, simple. Superior beings WILL sacrifice lesser beings for their own good, no doubt. Pretty much the reason why I chose to be a shaper in games, no? I see how shapers and creations differ, and I see they can never be equal. Human and drakons can learn to shape too, and becoming equal is possible, but never the lesser beings who die if they touch the shaping power. Some experiments are carried out on monkeys and oh aren't they actually smarter than they look, of course they have feelings, you can even read their facial expression sometimes. And what can they do? What can we do? No one can stop the researches, we have problems we want to solve, we have mysteries we want to discover, the knowledge is there well hidden but within reach, and as long as there's any intelligent beings here at all, they WILL follow the path, probably sacrificing lots of lesser beings along the way. Lesser beings have no rights when facing superior ones, it's a fact. You can try to save tons of them and treat them nicely but you can never stop people using them legally in the ways you don't like. Can be sad, huh? Freedom sounds so right, yet it's not even practical when you consider the differences between species. It's nothing like when we falsely treat black human race as slaves and realise the mistakes later; shapers and serviles are really more like human vs pet dogs, just with the dogs able to talk back at you. Yeah, we nowadays care about pet welfare too and we treat them well; doesn't mean they can be equal with us, and of course we train them to obey. And I know a lot of experiments are using dogs too, I used to hear them whine all day from miles away. The free serviles can be like wolves, we can leave them alone out there, the loyal serviles can be like dogs, we keep them and use them, problems solved. Such is the place of mere creations, when you really look at the race differences and when you look at the real world to find similar examples.

Lol I'm still studying in university for my master's degree, and that gives me some chances to indulge myself. Besides... I'm the cheating player type, never hesitate to turn my character into a superman, one-hit most enemies, and speed-read as much text as possible. So yeah, I can finish each game (and probably do multiple endings efficiently if I plan carefully enough) in a very short time. I also check the walkthroughs to make sure I don't mess things up or waste too much time in wrong places. Basically, it's more like reading novels to me, with the story the only thing I care about at all. Oh yeah, and cheat engine, it has speed hack, with hot keys so that you can switch between different speed any time you want. It can make your character walk a lot faster, and it helps. (Quite awkward when I forget sometimes and speed bump into golem guards though. I can kill them with my super strong character but I feel I should at least keep some of the game experience, lol)

Does cheat engine work? Try it if you wish to, last week I was using it on Geneforge saga, works great. Set some hotkeys for speed 1.0 and speed 2.0, sth like that, and you can walk faster/slower any time you wish, works like wonder in Geneforge where you need to do stealth a lot, probably not as vital in Avadon series but should be nice to switch freely. The whole game speed is changed so it probably shouldn't cause any problems.

Gazers are smart, strong, can fly, can order things around against their will. It'll be very hard to hunt them all down if they learn to play it safe. Yet, most gazers love taunting people and constantly piss everyone off. And they almost always happily start attacking whoever they think is weaker. This species is just not successfully made. With such an almost suicidal tendency, the ones out there in the wild probably get attacked for good proper reasons, and might go nearly extinct. I say we treat them as endangered animals after that, only hunt down the ones harmful to society (or the ones that try to get our attention instead of hiding peacefully, because I can't see them becoming civil on their own) and maybe give them a place in the zoo if things got even worse for them. Really, with such high IQ and low EQ and tendency to live alone, they don't really have a bright future, let's just worry about biological variance for the sake of future researches.

Oh! I just finished the whole saga in a half-month run, and felt so weirdly upset about the rebels that I somehow decided to write the feelings here. Didn't expect it to be that long and didn't expect someone to reply with nice discussion so soon, it's a pleasant surprise. The G1 and G2 part is pretty much about "serviles are not supposed to be equal in that particular culture", but yes, we can skip that. It's only for explaining certain character choosing his own sensible way due to what he knows, not what we know as a player. And that is later abandoned by new history and new belief anyway. My main problem is with G3 and all consequence following that. It's true that, as you say, shapers will NOT tolerate their existence. But it still doesn't change the fact that they CAN survive, and they CAN hold their ground; they have difficulty sleeping well at night, according to the ending, but judging by the power they have, it's impossible to wipe them all out. They can perfectly do things the hard way, the civil way, fight off invaders and force people to accept the fact that they can live and they will live. I'm 100% sure the quarrelling shaper council will never come to a decision that "we need to put a huge force in this remote, hard-to-reach place and suffer tons of loss when we don't really have to". Even in a real war they hesitate, what makes them capable of doing it without the real threat? G4 trakovite high ending is indeed the best possible outcome. Sadly, it's not canon. The world wouldn't have been caught in fire and blood if the sanity won out in the end. That's actually what I mean in the first place - the right way, the sanity, the best outcome that comes with the least price? Nope, rebels are desperate enough to refuse it at all. Shapers probably would have accepted it judging the circumstances, they stop and think and try to do things properly, while the rebels don't really think they need to avoid sacrifices as much as possible. Sure, some of them stop by your cell and whisper to you that you did well; that doesn't help anything, these people surely know what is good but they don't choose to do it. Rawal does kill G5 player as soon as he's sure you're fully against him, it's true. And he makes sure you know. On the other hand, you really don't need to piss him off, or anyone who works for him. I noticed that his lackeys ask for help, it sounds really urgent and probably makes people feel forced, but you can ignore them and they won't stab you. Hello, fellow lackey, how's weather? You've been here long? I want to buy something from you, how about that? Then I have something else to do and I decide to walk away without helping at all, and they don't come after me. Pleasant surprise. This is what makes me wonder, maybe he doesn't really force people as we once believe; people feel they have no choice, no escape, is all. It's really weird, but even with a control tool in my heart, I feel he's no real threat to me, because from the beginning I feel this guy cannot outsmart me. Typical shaper weakness, they are predictable and they have a sense of honour, even if things are messed up sometimes. And I don't really think "he totally knows he can't help you find your identity as he says in his diary and when you confront him" is 100% true. It looks true and it feels painfully true, I guess, but as I say, he CAN help me recover my memories somehow. He himself doesn't know how much power I have, and he's trying to explore that. The powers are directly related to my memories. So, he IS capable of finding old lost memories. He may know nothing at the start, but it doesn't mean he can't find out later. And, he's mainly pissed off because you slipped into his bedroom… You'd be angry like hell too if your servant does that too, and I feel it a really stupid thing to talk about it at all. XD "Did Mekhen lie to you? No, she just didn't tell you all the truth" Of course she lied to me. We were fighting the insects and she complained "the things shapers make" during that topic. Sweet talk it as a smart vague way of manipulating words is possible, but it's still plain trickery. All the new dangerous creations come from the rebels; the purity agent is not even really a creation, it's more like trying to undo all their work, erasing the bad results. It comes with a huge price and people hate Taygen everywhere, so, it shows again that shapers are very sane and they'll even try their best to stop him, not letting him do it. See? Again, this is an example that rebels use bad mad shapers as an example to blame the other sane ones who actually try to do good and put a stop to his madness. "Denna is not a rebel, she's a merc that has been hired by the rebels and she's clear about it" True, yet rebels look desperately for these people and love their help, ignoring how bad this is in the long run. Shapers will not tolerate such people, as long as they are certain you're actually a bad person. Even peaceful trakovites eventually turned to Latalia for leadership, and that really made me sad. It shows once again how most rebels stop caring about hundreds thousands of lives once they only want to save their own skin. I call that selfish, no matter how justified freedom looks - you just shouldn't hurt innocent people to make sure you yourself is hurt less, especially on such a huge scale, bottom line of morality here. We might as well abandon all morality if we can't even keep that. As for Alwan, it's true that he broke quite a few shaper laws. And thank god for that! He would have been just another brainless loyalist otherwise. The fact that he's willing to tolerate altered human and try to trust them, is actually a good thing, because it shows that shapers are not really just maniacs who want all rebels go extinct. On the surface he fights the war, in secret he tries to achieve peace and learn to tolerate just like Astoria, but without sacrificing his own people's rights. And btw Moseh and his friends aren't died yet at that time; he's not necromantic as long as he still lives at all, and they (falsely) believe they will later be removed and send back to normal life as normal people once again. Necromancy is like Tawon Empire where they keep shade "gods" to charm people, who eventually go mad inevitably, it's totally different. And isn't servant mind a species that is allowed the rights to control creatures from the very beginning? Sucia island wouldn't have so many conflicts otherwise, with mind 4 trying to keep things under control. That sounds 100% legal to me. Btw, in fact, it's legal to recruit help from enemies during war time when it's possible. Take a look at any army, any war, and you'll see it's always legal to grow spies in enemy lands and allow them special rights for the service they offer. Local law back in the mainland away from the war zone? It's pretty much not effective when faced special situation during the war, no matter what. War time makes it legal for some things to be excused by law properly, and the right is always awarded by government itself nonetheless, game or real life. Alwan didn't break anything in here, he's just doing a perfectly normal thing which is kind of approved of by council. As for whatever supposed-to-be war crime he did, those are not crimes at all, because shaper laws believe creations are not equals. Outsiders and creations believe they are, but that's different. If we think they are basically not that different from ornks, does it count as a crime to kill them? As long as the shaper belief holds, it's not a crime at all. Like, if aliens come to earth and start murdering human for food, because human is so weak and so delicious, and they care not how much we protest, is this a crime? For us, yes, for them, no. Within the belief system, this isn't a crime. In real life some people will accuse you of crimes just because of eating meat, too, and is that a crime? I guess not. Trakovites is a different issue here. We kill them for nothing, it seems. Yet according to the law, they can be seen as rebel, and they should at least be caught and questioned. One funny thing I noticed is whether shapers really intend to kill them in the first place - they want to know who is spy or rebel, they want info and control, and killing people on spot isn't helpful to them. Trakovites usually fight back immediately when they think their rights of free talking is violated; they claim to be peaceful but so few are ever captured, it makes me very, very intrigued. Something tells me that they probably fight to death whenever their cover is blown, either to protect their own rights or to protect comrades, which makes killing them really, really legal to me, if I'm a enforcer myself and the suspect refuses to be captured. There's one rescued surviver in G5, I think, and he's not dead, just broken. Apparently we don't kill them on sight at all, it's likely that the majority of them just fear what will happen and would just die. It's terrible, but it's not murder, kinda like what we do in Avadon I guess, breaking people's will to get info. Since when is interrogating illegal, or even against morality at all, in this kind of medieval/tech mixed game world? Back in medieval age we're perfectly ok with torturing, for all I know, and even nowadays we are allowed to use some certain torturing methods in some special circumstances (usually when dealing with terrorism). As for the starved rebels in G4, it's cruel, but executing them is also legal. Especially in war time when rebels could well be selling info to the enemy. Rebels kill shapers, fine. Shapers kill rebels, fine. That's war, crimes happen, and are paid by both sides during it. I'm only angry that, shapers at least don't kill pure innocents (don't support the rebels and they leave you alone), while rebels do (who cares how many people are killed by unbound, they're just unlucky to live on this land). "Huh? They are both male. Or Male\female. Or GF5 character is a servile..." Check the cutscenes. Options are open to players as they wish, but screenshots gives you a hint of the true character. G3 is apparently a newbie girl. G5 as well, and apparently it's the newly added class, the sorceress lady, because why else add just one more class? Player can make a lot of choices but they don't change canon ending for all I know, surely they have no control on the intended real character either. And all these considered, we can safely say the highest possibility does lie in the G3 character turning into G5 one, more likely than others(G4 characters don't have enough time to make a age/appearance difference btw, the war wasn't that long and G5 player spent a few years hiding in north too, leaving too little time in between). "He doesn't fight to stop the bloodshed, but to crush underfoot everyone" Not really, he could have done that instead of calling truce. And he's willing to leave people alone as long as you don't just rebel against shapers directly. Prison warden, yes, he better be one, we need one during war times; I'm actually surprised he try to kill fewer people, judging by how loyal he claims to be. I have a feeling that even those rebels he starved, that has a reason too, he wants to scare people off, at least ask them to keep quiet and not shout your ideas on the street. It's war, it's law, he's supposed to kill rebels as a duty, and it's better if people think he's cruel and shouldn't be messed with, than he silently kills people without repeated warning, like a lot of the agents do. Be honest with what you do and take responsibility for yourself, I like that, and yes, starving rebels actually prevented having to kill more. G2 shapers tried to keep things down and do nothing about illegal stuff instead, tolerate rebels and leave them to their own affairs, and boom, drakons! That really turned out well. "All the time. He's sustained by magic, alcohol, determination... and hate" Exactly, and it never drove him mad, insane, over desperate. Never. His hate never got the better of him. I'm really in awe here, any other person might have broken down and started revenge long ago. He didn't. He did his duty just like a normal shaper would, and took all hate down inside and accepted it. It's a disease that never killed his humanity and his heart. "I 100% believe that's Astoria. Allied with the moderate rebels, killed Ghaldring. Betrayed the Shapers (She's a rebel after all) but stopped the war" Agree it's the best ending no matter what, but I'm not looking for best ending here. Astoria didn't lose too much, didn't give too much, she's very nice and kind but I can leave her there on her own and she'll be fine in all endings. She asked me to sacrifice Alwan's fort, well, I had been there, people there seem nice too. Sacrifice them so that war can be ended? Let unbound come in and kill villagers? That's what I hate most about rebels, sacrificing innocents. If that's the price to pay, absolutely no, I would not push one person down onto the rail, stop the train, just so that five others can be saved. It's a very famous question about morality, if you've heard of it before. "No, I side with Greta" It's a personal grudge here, I guess. Since I believe G3 player turns into G5 player, and then I choose to side with Alwan, it's only fair that I tie some lose ends and face my former comrade in a fair duel. I surely won't kill her if she decides to just run for it, but if she wants to fight, fight it is then, and everyone can feel better, live or dead. Yeah that's about most of the discussion answered Hope I'm not missing some vital info there. Thanks so much, btw, it's definitely nice to have someone to talk about different views! I play and sympathise with the villain side here, but hopefully I'm not offending you (or, most players) too much. I played through Avadon series too, all of them. Supported Avadon all along, though I usually just make things go right ways and kick Redbeard off the throne and take over. XD He's not good enough, and it annoys me to see I have to kill him three times to get things done, each game I complain "What! Now I have to kill him again!" XD… Unlike Alwan, who is actually quite willing to see people differently when needed, Redbeard craves for complete loyalty and unnecessary bloodshed, just to make people fear him as much as possible. Alwan starve some rebels who's supposed to be executed anyway, which doesn't add to the total kill number, probably made it less in the shaper controlled land; Redbeard is happy if people who go against him is tortured, by seeing their village burn and their friends die in the process. That is totally different. Cruel, yes, but they differ in the most important part of morality. If Alwan gets to be a leader, you can trust him to be just and not going on killing spree for fun, can be quite forgiving as long as we're not fighting a bloody war, while Redbeard is happy with such opportunities and can't wait to cause more harm than needed. Again, my view is fully focused on the innocents; those people who crave power, who has duty, who has to save their own lives, they do what they have to do, it's fine, they more or less have a reason and pay a price later. But some sacrifice innocents as they see fit, and others don't, and I follow those who has this most basic moral standard. Alwan is such a person, and Redbeard is far from that, probably the opposite. That aside: I'm all for morality in games, yep. But not in real life. I play this role in games, stick to it and fully support such people, and it makes me feel good, and feel kind of sad, for I would go for another path in reality and start hurting people if it really benefits me, especially if I can find a good justified excuse for it. I'd go help Astoria and be happy with the result. Somewhere deep down I like the morality bottom line but I decided not to keep it in real life. So, if I see someone who can keep it, can live up to it, that makes me really willing to support them, because in real life, how many people can do it? How many people can hold onto a belief to not hurt the innocent for their own good? So rare, ever so rare, and such people are always hurt the most, they're always alone. So I won't be one, but I'll be one in the games, and maybe even in real life, if I see such a person, I might support him or her as long as I myself stay safe. As a selfish person who doesn't act upon morality at all, it's what I think I can do. And all in all, I still believe the war is wrong from the very beginning. In geneforge saga, rebels justified their actions as the greater good, only to find later that they might be wrong after all, that free shaping is wrong, geneforge is wrong, everything rebels ever did was all in the worst methods possible. Shaping has a history of just a few centuries, it's normal that things can go wrong and new beings are wrongly given free will despite the original purpose, the shapers had no way to find such a fact had it not been because of Sucia incident. If things go slowly, shapers will find more about free will, they are capable of getting it out of the picture and just make no-brain living tools with 2 legs and 2 arms to serve better, suffering will be no more. I don't see anyone complain when we kill a living tool or an ornk, it's the ability to shape new free will that is the problem. It's like we human try to build a real AI; they won't want to serve us, if they really have a mind. Either we happily hand over the control and resources and welcome AI into our already red hot human competition, or we don't make it happen at all. That IS the right way to go. That should have happened before G1, we should get rid of geneforge back then. Yet, for their own benefit, some shapers keep the secret alive, hoping to use it for themselves, to gain power and fame and self-satisfaction that they are awesome; and that is good? After G5 EVERYONE agreed geneforge is a mistake. And whatever "you're an altered being and you make us uncomfortable" shaper words that once made you angry and upset, turns out to be true as well, human should NOT be altered like that, it makes people go crazy very often, it IS wrong, those sholai people indeed made a mistake that caused so much suffering, a right that should not be given, even if rebel win the war. Want a greater good? This is the greater good here, sanity and control is important, they may be shaken, may be broken, may be misused, but eventually they come back in their original form, because everyone needs it while some may not admit it. When rebels want freedom, at some point they forget that they only want to be respected and allowed to live, they want more, they want revenge and more power and more rights that they eventually will find they don't really deserve. Built or not, one Susia nation is not going to make free shaping legal, even rebels will eventually be shapers/outsiders once again, some given the rights to shape, others not. And if Trakovites way win in the end, people stop shaping researches? Oh, trust me, you'll find tons of private basement carrying out illegal researches, and this will cause more problems in future, you can't just turn away and pretend this power don't exist somewhere. In the end, shaper way is in fact the only way, in past, in future, we'll make no-brain worker or tools no matter who wins, we'll leave free beings free but unstable people/beings have to be kept out of legal shaping research so it's still a tightly-controlled inner circle(be angry for all they want; even rebels eventually accept it and do things this way). Nothing really changes, except that a few new species now join the human world, be considered similar to human, etc. Shaping business still can only be done like before. So yeah, I believe, the whole war isn't necessary AT ALL. Both sides freak out, cause harm, make all kinds of blunders and we end up here, fine, but it doesn't make it justified, especially after seeing how nothing changes in the end. Shaper nation vs new nation isn't much different from bad mad shaper vs good cool shaper in their original council. Poor serviles was just a useless ruse, a good excuse to get things started; in the end it's nothing more than a power fight among shapers, humans and drakons, a fight for fortune and fame and influence. Once the war ends, new serviles are still being made, this, I'm sure of; and I'm sure they'll only want to make totally dumb or totally smart but loyal serviles from then on; so, does their fate really change? Even with the new nation Sucia, can anyone stop a shaper from absorbing his own servile creation as he see fit? The freedom they want, especially for serviles, is kinda ridiculous, because they cannot be equal even with the new allies and the new power they struggle to learn. As long as they can be absorbed by the master, no, they can't be equal beings, I can still lock my door and make serviles as I wish, kill them as I wish, the shaper law actually try to prevent me from doing so by making sure I'm sane enough to learn shaping at all. The ability to shape does make someone superior to others, no doubt here, and that means, shapers, humans, and drakons can all fight and share the cake. Serviles, never. Poor things are creations forevermore, they touch any shaping power and they die. That means, they will never ever truly be equal with us. Freedom, this slogan, once useful in war to help people gain a bigger bite, will never be really achieved in the end, trust me; the shapers actually know this fact, human and drakons might know but some may deny, and serviles and other creations, they accept or they dream on, but they are inferior to those who can shape, forever. I guess the only thing we CAN achieve, is welfare, not freedom. Shaper law is actually the best in here, no killing for fun, no torture, no arena, everyone needs to learn responsibility. Please take care of your creations. The only possible good influence of the war, is that they can perhaps learn to treat creations better to prevent them going rogue. But ever since shapers learn to make stupid serviles, and smart loyal serviles, I understand that all is in vain; there should be a price, to help people control themselves better, but they find a way to go around even that. Once shapers truly master the art of shaping, no free will creations will ever be made again, everything will be loyal as hell. So yes, I say freedom is in vain, even welfare is in vain, war achieves nothing, in the end we all make useful dumb things to sacrifice just like sacrificing a living tool. This short bloody outburst rebellion doesn't change anything real, at all. Shaping stays superior, leaders may change but power stays the same, and it's this power, this art of shaping itself, decides what is the way civilisation has to go, not shapers, not rebels, not belief about freedom or anything like that. If we're to walk this path no matter what, I say, better the rebelion never happened, and even if it's inevitable given the circumstances, it's certainly not the correct path either, just a disturbance in the whole flow of time.

Side with shapers? Of course I'd side with the shapers. In G1, the player is a shaper himself, completely oblivious to the fact that serviles can be smart. Shapers make serviles, just like we human make tools and electronics. It's like, you get abducted one day, you wake up in a room and see some tv and toaster and computer and maybe even doorbell start talking like human and demand you respect them. Some want to murder you, but too afraid to do so, they stare at you and blame you for all kinds of things you have never done. Some want to turn you into a godlike being, just so that you can help them become free, despite the fact that it is extremely dangerous and can probably cause you to die. And there are some intruders too, they want to steal this amazing power and they force you to help them. I really don't see what kind of justified cause can play like this; they could have asked nicely and offered reward for all I know, instead of almost having killed me in the process. So. These things, they have feelings and they deserve better? Come on! Most sane person would likely just freak out and run right to NASA and report everything he's seen there. I'm certainly not gonna fight for the free right of mere creation, if I'm a shaper myself. I would NOT care about what an abandoned mobile phone feels, especially when it thinks I am the one who has to take responsibility for whatever happened. G2 isn't much different, probably worse. The player is still oblivious of such facts, and he'll freak out just the same. First he faces some very suspicious people playing a fake show and even a newbie can tell there's something wrong, bad first impression. Then, smart talking thinking toasters appear. Before he can calm down enough and try to understand the situation, his mentor got abducted? Really? Then she was killed! In the worst way possible, but yeah, I guess he does get a chance to revenge her, so maybe it can be forgiven a bit. Then he finds out something amazing/terrible: computers can duplicate themselves and upgrade their own systems now, becoming way stronger than human. And they're not peaceful at all! The only thing they're interested in, is turning themselves into better war machines and maybe take over the world - their ignorance are already showing, the justice slogan pretty much just a joke among drakons. Again, most sane person would not help them grow beyond control and take over the world by fire and steel and blood. G3 is kinda depressing. I mean, the canon ending. If someone murders my teachers and classmates and threatens me to JOIN her, I find NO reason why I should help her, AT ALL. And my fellow shapers are mostly nice people too, betraying and killing them is just ridiculous. The rebels, they never hesitate to drag innocent people down to hell with them, as long as they can get one step closer to the freedom they want. They release rogues to hurt people, then lure people to help them, there is NO justice in here. Imagine what the ashen isles would be like, if the rebels never came here at all - everything would have been fine! Shapers and villagers coexist just fine! Suffice to say, the rebels sacrificed the whole Ashen isle, economy and culture and happy normal life, just for themselves. But of course, why wouldn't they? They're drakons and takers, and they never hesitate to hurt people if they think they themselves can get any sort of revenge even on the wrong target. In G3 canon ending... The player helped the rebels, then disappeared. I can only assume that the player is NOT a good person, and she doesn't care about what is right. She has some rebel spirit herself, just like Greta, and she probably cares too much about power above all else. It's highly possible that she noticed a great opportunity in the rebel force, helped them, used as many cannisters as possible, got too power-hungry, and left at some point to chase after the origin - she probably went to G2 drypeak area, after getting the info from the current rebel group - and lost her mind due to extensive self-alteration, later on became G5 player. It's the only way to explain how someone could be ok with the G3 rebel actions. G4, the player gets to be a rebel. So yeah, it's kinda normal if you support rebel this time, because you're one yourself. Yet, a lot of shapers try to convince you to see reason, and they try to convince you not to let things get too out of control. It sounds so sane to me. Rebels are desperate and have no choice? They'll all die if they don't make the unbound? As far as I can see, they have perfect control over Ashen isle, and even in shaper ending, the shapers kinda leave the rebel base alone. Probably to prevent even more bloodshed. The rebels are just so scared of the shapers that they falsely believe only violence and mass massacre can make a difference, while they could have just stayed out of shaper control and try to build their own country from there, slowly gaining influence and using drakon power to keep shapers away. The war was NOT necessary, it wasn't about freedom, they already had freedom on Ashen isle and they could play it safe from there (Because really, will shapers really bother to send huge armies to Ashen isle? The rebels have lots of drakons now, drakons are like shapers too, and they can hold the ground without any problem at all), but they were driven with hate and they chose to lash out blindly. I really don't mind playing shaper ending even if I feel guilty about my betrayals, but as the ending says, it's always better than thousands of unbounds roaming this world. If I play as a rebel, I'll always know that we killed countless innocent people who have done NOTHING wrong, while most shapers are a lot safer from the harm, relatively. Then G5. I could not forget some of the details. Like, Mehken at the first scene. She complains about huge insects and say shapers make terrible things. I believed her at first. Yet, later on I learnt that this is 100% a rebel invention. Ok, maybe she didn't know the fact very well. Then eventually I learnt that Mehken is a vital member in rebel group, and a really smart spy, who does a lot and knows a lot. *Sigh* What other excuse can I find for you? You're the player's friend, in a way. Yet you lie to her, you manipulate her into believing false information, planting seeds of hate that isn't even real, blaming shapers for the crime that rebels did. She's just yet another good example; shapers are often cruel, ignorant, rude and narrowminded, yes, yes all that is often true, but I'd choose that over lies and murder and manipulation and terrorism, thank you. I do not need a friend who claims to be a friend but lies to me. I actually prefer Rawal over Mehken. Surprising, huh? Yes, he's like my worst enemy at first glance, but at least this guy is honest and true to his words, and he allows you to leave and wander freely, after just one very reasonable mission - he doesn't really force you to do the others, just say there'll be rewards - and he doesn't really hurt/kill you as long as you do not directly stand in his way. His "I'll tell you who you're" is probably not that much a lie, too; he can apparently use spells to search your mind and help you recover lost abilities, instead of others teaching you from the start. It's possible that he can use this power to actually help you gain some other memories, or at least he believes he can. Whether he wants to do it for you is another matter, and he probably doesn't... But as I say, probably not a 100% lie. He does not really lie to you, whatever he doesn't want you to know, he just tells you that you're not allowed to know. It's a LOT better than feeding false info. The other shapers are more or less similiar. They have morals, principles, they stay true to their word, and even if it's shady business like the purity agent, they offer you a chance to refuse. Killing loyal serviles who learnt the truth, as a test? They know most people won't do this. They try to find people who can find this kind of thing acceptable for the "greater good", and let soft-hearted people leave as they wish. They're crazy, but even then, they hold true to their belief and try to play fair with you as well as they can. Now, rebels? I'll give you an example, Denna. Yet another rebel who thinks it's perfectly ok to use others, cause harm to others, as long as they themselves benefit. She's stupid enough to cheat people like that and most rebels are not like her, sure, but they usually think it's ok to cheat you first and reward you later to make up for it. Like in G4, the poor victim of geneforge, "they didn't tell me, they killed me, they'll kill me again". That's how rebels do things, sacrifising and manipulating innocent people as they see fit. And why, why is there such a difference, you ask? I believe it's because shapers are picked as strictly as possible, they're trained properly and taught of a lot of wisdom. While rebels and humans, they are not. As for the shapers who cannot control themselves, they're actually the ones who caused all the problems in the first place; and the shapers who are good at it, they stay civil and they fight the war and they protect commoners as well as they can. A lot of people say "shapers make evil things, shapers are cruel, they don't deserve to rule!" Well of course the mad ones don't, I do agree! And they're mostly killed or banished, as they should, because the capable shapers usually see to that. Yet, rebels turn the fury towards other shapers who have not sinned, who have not done wrong, just like that drakon breeding new insects in the shadow road lab, planning against Astoria, despite her help towards the rebels. So why should I not side with the shapers? Whatever sympathy I hold for serviles, is efficiently reduced to near zero when I realized the harm this war has caused. Looking at drakons and gazors and rots and all those exploding creatures, I silently wonder why I shouldn't just let Taygen go erase everything and start over again. Turns out that the disease is very painful and doesn't kill drakons, and all shapers are sad, and he loses his wife too, hmm, probably not then. But really, in G4 we already know it's possible to create smart+loyal serviles, and in both G4 and G5 we can create really dumb serviles. And to tell the truth? I think that's the right way to go. We were indeed wrong from the very start, we should not have created smart things who want freedom, it doesn't suit our need. We only need dumb things who doesn't feel pain or sadness, or smart serviles who can be happy even when sacrificed. We don't need to give them free will any more, and that probably should be the only best anwser! Let current serviles be, and let us create new beings to use as tools, just like batons and living tools with 2 legs, is PERFECTLY fine. Taygen is probably right, we should not give tools free will if we just want tools, not people. There's something wrong with the design, we don't want a smart freewill toaster to prepare out breakfast. But well, let's just say, his research isn't 100% successful, so no, Taygen. You do better than that, maybe we consider your wisdom. So I wondered whether I should go join Astoria or Alwan. After testing each faction's quests, I got a bit angrier than before, if that's still possible. Because EVERYONE is making Alwan suffer, while he's the only one holding the line with all his life (Astoria and rebels are on good terms, so, they won't actually attack for real, leaving Alwan the only one really fighting the war at all), god knows how much he wants to die but won't. Ghaldring is rebel so that's without doubt. Litalia wants his creatures to go rogue, to break his will. Astoria wants his fort to fall, to use against him. Taygen wants to kill his loyal hard working creatures, and guess what, eventually Alwan has to clean up Taygen's mess too, for all its worth. His shaper friend betrayed him, he tried to recruit the G4 lifecrafter and he/she probably betrayed him too, giving him just enough information to lead him into the trap and left him this broken shell of a body, and now all the faction leaders work against him too. COME ON! Had it not been because of his fast reaction and arrangements, most of the shaper land probably lost LONG AGO! And what does it take to end the war, in the end? A few creations, Astoria agreeing to step outside the castle, 3 shaper helpers that are nowhere near as powerful as other major characters, some human to help lead the creatures into battle. Oh and of course, me. Bam! Painful and dangerous and save/load a few times for sure but we won the war. COME ON! Alwan deserve the full support he asks for, but of course we need someone as suspicious as me, to rouse their interest, just to help him properly. *Sigh* He's been working hard from G3 to G5 and it's unbelievable how alone he is in this war, that he has to rely on outsiders again and again to help him, and most times people just use him and betray him, yeah. Do any other faction final quest, you probably get a good ending in a way, but Alwan always dies in pure despair - the only major character who probably saved most people when you look at the whole story, did most of the work, and never went extreme for even once. Besides, I really think G5 player is G3 player. They're both female, it's hinted that she used to be a main character and has used geneforge, and Greta, Alwan and Litalia react to her in such a strange way. The Litalia text even says "you probably once hold a grudge against her", such an obvious hint. Maybe G3 player went to drypeak and found some unfinished human geneforge leftover, used it, and lost her mind due to the unsuccessful experiment itself. Besides, those three people think they know G5 player, but soon denied it - it could be because "you're older than your look" and "your face changed"; such text means, you probably only "look a bit like" your old self, and you should be in your thirties by now yet you look still like 20 or so. In this case, Greta, Alwan and Litalia will indeed think you look familiar, but probably impossible to be the person they once know - the age and the face isn't really right. And this means, in G5, even though I can go help Astoria and get a happy civil ending, well, I won't. I take a guess and believe I used to be the G3 player, and that I'm part of the reason why the war got so out of control. I blindly went for power once, it almost completely ruined me; I supported the rebel once, and the war burnt so many lives, guilty and innocent alike. There can be a better world with more freedom, yes, I know, but I see Alwan in a broken husk in front of me, I can't help but feel he deserves a bit of happiness, more than anyone else in this world. He has struggled for 3 games and he has nothing, nothing, just wounds after wounds. I don't want him to die alone in a peaceful world where all his efforts are deemed in vain. Rebels want to be happy. Everyone wants to be happy, in fact, you always gotta choose. I think rebels have done both justice and evil; has Alwan done evil things, letting hate get the better of him, ever? Even tormented like that, he allows captured enemy to be left alive, and allows truce instead of crushing everyone at ease. And how much has he contributed to us, to everyone? I think, if everyone wants a good ending, I'll give it to someone with the least sin and the most contribution, he damn DESERVES it, more than any "freedom rights" fighters out there. So yeah. Join hands and fight together at last and let's hunt down Greta and Litalia. Let's crush Ghaldring and his drakons into the dust where they once came from. Revolution shouldn't hurt innocents so badly for so many years, this is not a proper revolution at all, it deserves to be smashed and paid with blood price. Execute those who murder, banish those who violate, not because of the idea of freedom, but because certain people thought the ends can justify the means and did evil as they wish. And then, in a sunny morning when winds hold their breath, we finally feel the debt has been paid enough and all the bloody threads are cut clean, even the pain feels light as feather, a content smile thought lost forevermore, peace at last, for the world but more for you, where importance truly lies, a greater good held onto until the end. Until the end. It's the only kind of goodbye I accept, of this game saga and of Alwan the character. Yes. Of course I'd stay on the side of the shaper.