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The Gazers' right to exist

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Meh, it's fine. Dogs aren't that important, they just have the most similarity with serviles than anything else, is all. We don't need to always focus on that.


"The marking difference on those two is that serviles wouldn't have been recognised without the war"

Personally I don't find that important. Shapers are capable of making more freewill creatures, or fewer; we can have 3, have 5, have 10, history leads us to somewhere and we accept the current situation. We could have made 100 more freewill new species and then give them freedom as well but what's even the point?


"The power over serviles is mostly military not cognitive. Serviles are actually physically more capable than shapers"

Still doesn't change the fact that they're no match for shapers at all. Just imagine how they'll ever be respected at all without help from drakons and human. Feel free to answer that question too, if you'd like: If you're a servile and your master can absorb you within one second, how can you ever be truly free and equal?


"Wether thats right or not its how we work. Always"

You're right on that, you know? We human only ever bother with moral codes when we can afford it. Funny how most people try to justify it to make themselves feel better. My very first viewpoint, is that human turn away from the truth, the real evil within, done by their own hands. Always easier to say someone else is doing it worse, should be punished (while it's more for their own benefit), etc.


"I still do not agree on it. It removes our need to evolve and our freedom. I will not agree on it no matter the pros"

Of course, I would guess over 99.9% of human beings won't like it. Yet, I have a feeling that if a superior being does exist, it won't ever think it's necessary for us to evolve and have freedom at all. For example, would you want dogs to evolve, repeat all mistakes we human once did, and slowly grow to be as powerful as us? Most people will find it a dangerous thing that should be prevented, or at least supervised, never giving them a real chance to do it freely as they wish. If there's any superior being, surely it'll think human evolution is a waste of time and energy.


"The difference between animals and plants is one is animate the other is inanimate"

What about Venus flytraps, then? Examples are rare, but still existent. And besides… Plants do move on their own, if you think carefully about how they function. They can move very slowly by growth, towards where there's light and water. You know, at the beginning, you think I'm someone who's obsessed with being superior; but I actually see everything as equal as us, on a more fundamental level, as living things. The "superiority" I talk about is really just a difference in power, not the superficial kind, but the kind of power that cannot be taken or acquired (at least, without proper evolution).

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Without delving in most of what's been said in the thread:

Cool, if you want analysing I'll give you some! :D Simple question, might be useful: If you see stupid ones earlier, and see smarter ones later, would it still make you feel bad, if your very first impression is "they're supposed to be without will"? Like, you think your tv is just a piece of machine, but one day it talks to you and you see it's alive, and you eventually realise a lot of electronics are with brains, but not all of them - now, do you want to end the existence of other normal "stupid" tv?


Correction. I started watching a series with human-looking robots (Humans TV series). The robots creep the heck out of me, to the point I take breaks from watching the first episode.



And back to the discussion:

If that's what really happened in rebelion, I wouldn't be upset with them so much, you know. Just warn beforehand that you might go insane and disfigured, instead of avoiding mentioning the effects, would be good enough for me. Yet, they choose not to, so that they can utilise such eager people. How's that the same as providing freedom?

It's not. First it was wrong of the rebellion to not warn everyone of the risks involved, that your personality will change you won't just get to shoot firebolts. Second, they did warn some people, just not everyone. Jarred has been warned beforehand.


"Not all Lifecrafters have been geneforged"

True, but the rest of them are made by using canisters. Which just effectively turn you into a cold-blooded inhuman person anyway. Like Litalia, right?

Litalia was made so by Shaper conditioning, like most of them. It's not just the boost from the canisters, it's that power corrupts. And the Shapers take their students in from early age and condition them \ braiwash them. By the time you were in that school in GF3, at like 20, you were in the system for like 5 years.


at least shapers control it honestly, while rebels utilise people without telling them beforehand, using them as mere tools in war.

Yes, Shapers are more honest. They're also more oppressive and way more tyrannical.


That actually resulted in Litalia, though? Very capable, strong discipline, good empathy towards creations. AND emotional, which is actually a key point when combined. Why let past mistakes repeat?

Nope, it didn't result in Litalia. Litalia was very capable, strong discipline, no empathy towards creations and nearly devoid of emotions. She told me in two games she burned serviles alive as they were begging for their lives. She wiped out Drayks, Serviles and Drakons in the Drypeaks mercilessly. She attacked a freaking school and set monsters to go eat people so people would be mad at Shapers.

She lacked empathy.

And another thing since you keep mentioning it: That loyal mage, is asking for more magical spells, not to become a Shaper. She's denied progressing in a different field.


Weird that the one question I pointed out didn't get direct answer. Come on, surely you can tell me, how do you plan to be equal with me if I can absorb you with a wave of hand? Even with rebellion success, Sucia nation functioning, etc? Can you really change the fate of creations, who're always at creator's mercy no matter what?

(Besides, you can't seem to understand why I say power is the only thing that matters. Face it: without geneforge/canister breakthrough, your "should" will never become reality, which is the only problem in here. But we don't have to dwell on "what if", we can just look at creations, and how can you ever find a way to make them equal with their masters, with or without rebellion?)

Hmmm? Shapers can't absorb creations they haven't made themselves, unless the creation is nice and calm and they have it under control. If they could, rebellion would be over pretty quickly. In order to absorb a creation, in GF3, you take control of it, and then slowly dismantle the magic holding it. At that's for a lowly artila BTW, that's not rogue. I think it says somewhere in GF4 that you can't do that to rogues; unless you have them under control, YOUR control, you can't absorb them.

Of course without the Canisters and the Geneforge the rebellion would be lost! I never denied that. Even with the canisters and the geneforges, it took the Unbound to turn the tide and in 4/6 endings in GF5, the rebellion loses anyway.


Nazi might be a bad example here because they kill people instead of just making slaves

I disagree with you, and so does the Rebellion. Better die standing than live on your knees. In our flag the colors symbolize "Freedom or Death". Enslaving a nation\sentient race is worse than killing people.


"But that "yes" still mean you find it ok to kill 10 people instead of 1, if you personally think those 10 people are properly hated."


"If they're murderers, fine, it's fair; but many shapers you kill during rebelion, they're not. They are probably mean to outsiders and they absorb their own creations when needed, the same thing you do during your own gameplay, but that's it. Let alone the real innocent people"


War is a bad business and I admit I have done some pretty horrible things in the 2 games (and probably will do so in GF3).


I have killed or led to the death Shapers or soldiers that were not mean to outsiders. Like those nice people in Rockfall, that I fed to Unbound just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's war. You kill enemies that you have nothing against.


And another thing that goes on in the war and isn't shown in the game too much: In war good people get killed and opportunists survive. When we were fighting the Turks to gain independence, the brave patriotic people were dying and their families hunted down. Same with the Nazi Occupation. Guess who had a much better rate of survival? The collaborators that turned on the enemy only when it was clear which side would win.


Back to wars, I've spoken with veterans. They had to kill people they knew nothing about and that they knew they were fighting for their own country. People they could relay to, but that they were shooting at because they have been born on a different side of the border. They said they could relate to them, realized they shared the same fear, that they had loved ones praying for them and all. Greek soldiers became friends with Italian captives of the war.

My grandfather befriended several german officers after WW2, when he was sent to defeated Germany as occupation force by the allies. He says he has met monsters full of hate and good people that have just been on the other side.


That is what Astoria understands and Alwan doesn't. In an Astoria ending, I could visit my Shaper turret-making friend and have a tea. I could visit Rockfall and lay flowers on the unmarked grave of that commander that had to make do with a broken gate until I led Unbound to attack him from behind. I could visit the guardian that chaffed under Taygen's command and gossip about the hateful old man. I could tell people that badmouthed Agent Miranda (IMO the best Shaper) to F-off, the same way as English and French pilots in WW1 would send to detention people that badmouthed the Red Baron after his death.

We wouldn't be enemies anymore.

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"Correction. I started watching a series with human-looking robots"

I'm merely testing an assumption here - "it's the first impression that matters" - not really saying you actually started from there. Maybe I should use another example instead: If you think plants are supposed to be simple living things, but one day you start to find smart plants that can talk to you, will you find the "dumb" plants creepy and want to eliminate them? Nope, you'll think the smart ones are out of place. It just means: you only think human-like things should be 100% human-like because that's what you learn at first. You'll think dumb ones are abnormal. Yet, for other things, you'll think they're "supposed" to be without a mind, and if they do have one, you'll find that abnormal and you hate the smart ones instead, denying it as well as you can. Just a matter of perception, you being taught what things "should" be like, and hating the "abnormal" ones.


"Second, they did warn some people, just not everyone"

I would bet they look very carefully and only warn those who look like they're willing to pay the price anyway. Which makes it a bit more annoying actually, because it sounds like hypocrite.


"Litalia was made so by Shaper conditioning, like most of them"

"no empathy towards creations"

Are you sure? In G3 it's emphasised several times that her canister symptom is getting more and more severe and she used to care very much (you need to hear her tell you the true past of how she ran away crying like a baby, not the fake past in G4 & G5. Hmm, not really THAT fake, but she leaves out very important details) but not any more. Though you CAN get some emotional and honest response in G3 (probably because she was still in the progress of canister alteration), in G4 and G5 you have no such luck, she's too far gone, no matter how she tries to come back being human again. Pretty much proves that she's ruined by canisters instead of shaper ways, progressively wiping her old self and humanity and empathy clean, and Ghaldring has a hand in this too… Ah, just go play G3 and go for the shaper ending, choose carefully to hear her confess. You'll probably like it.


"Yes, Shapers are more honest. They're also more oppressive and way more tyrannical"

Well, I'm one who prefer people who're honest to humanity, so yeah.


"Hmmm? Shapers can't absorb creations they haven't made themselves"

"In order to absorb a creation, in GF3, you take control of it, and then slowly dismantle the magic holding it"

Yeah, you just told me it's possible to absorb creations made by others. It's kinda hard but don't forget your player is just a mere apprentice. In G1, it's stated more than a dozen of times that absorbing a random servile is perfectly possible by a proper shaper, but being an apprentice, it's impossible alright. In G1 there's sth else too, but it's a huge secret… I won't spoil it for you; just know that shaping power is a LOT stronger than you assumed, a true shaper can wave a hand and things just go die immediately, creation or natural lives all the same. Sadly this strongest form of power was probably lost during history. Go find it yourself when you feel like it.

And based on that, tell me again… If you can't be free even if you try, is freedom a good thing, a right thing, which might just result in getting wiped out as a "failed" species?


"Better die standing than live on your knees"

It's not how humanity works, though. This beautiful slogan can only work when there's a chance to fight back. Otherwise, human can be tamed. We cannot be tamed forever by our own species because like I say, the difference in power is very superficial… But given a much stronger species, believe me, all people with backbones will be killed and only the most obedient ones will be left behind, evolution "helping" us becoming tamed like dogs in just a few generations. It might even become instinct if given a long time. Freedom is not "the right thing", it's only the right thing for those who have a chance. For others, I'd rather praise their loyalty to allow them keep the only bit of dignity they have left, some kind of "meaning" in their lives, instead of causing them self-loathing and leading to suicidal actions. Because true weaklings are better off living like that, pawns, pets, things, and it's truly what weaklings prefer; they don't need things like freedom to suffer even more, Pat pat good dog.


"In war good people get killed and opportunists survive"

Good point. And you should see how shapers, even in war, try to protect human, instead of leaving them there as war fodders. And rebels think like you do: we have no choice, let innocents die because that's what happens in war. You say shapers use human like mere resources… No, rebels use them like resources, a mere method to cause more fear and chaos, go die because we need you to, etc. And shapers, despite all the difficulties during war time, still care, because they have this feeling of honour, of doing right things to be worthy of their own title. It's like some of the bad families out there: suppose there's a kid, and a father. The father is abusive, but in a dire time he'd protect his kid anyway, because it's his kid. The kid also has a friend who worries about him and shows care, encourages him to escape the family and promising further support, but when facing some real danger, this friend abandons the kid in the hope of saving his own ass. Well, guess who the kid will hate more after that? Would he prefer an abusive father who saved him, or a caring friend who used him as fodder?


So enough with "no choice", "has to happen". Surely there're good people who have no bad will, just ending up on the other side, etc. But I only trust it if they really do something. Words are nothing by itself. So show me some examples that rebels help innocents live better in war, how about that? (Hopefully without recruiting them into the rebels; or, hopefully it's really for caring about people, instead of player killing bandits for loot. Anyone but the player should be fine, I guess.) I know real life people can do it, yes. In the game, some shapers are infiltrators in enemy land and can be in danger if not careful, yet they still give local people some help and try to keep them safe. They can say "I can't afford it, I myself might be endangered" but did they? A sense of responsibility, a fact that they actually care, if they as villains can do it, how come the rebels don't?


And yes, my main problem with Astoria is, she accepts this kind of terrorism, believing the ends justifies the means. Your words proves that you think so as well, no matter how much you deny it and how much you say "there's no choice", yes there is, it's called self-defence and it's in G2 rebel ending, worked out great. If you really believe ends don't justifies the means, then you shouldn't do the "necessary evil" - the bad methods - for a good ending. Sticking to Alwan, on the other hand, I can safely say we only target those who have a hand in war, and leave the innocents alone, even protecting them in the meantime.


Btw, would you mind telling me, what do you think of "everyone agrees that shaper law makes sense" in all G5 endings? Which means, in Sucia, they start to let only a handful people have shaping power and close the door to most people? (Because shaper law = control shaping tightly, kill rogues on sight, shapers are god; surely they won't like the other two, so this should be the only entry that everyone agrees upon) I haven't yet seen you answer to that directly. You put your hope in Sucia, but I'd love to hear what you think about this detail.



Ah, on second thought… No, Astoria doesn't support terrorism that much. Maybe a little, but just a little. The moment she realised rebels were breeding bugs deep inside shadow road, she kinda lost hope in them. Hmm. This means she's merely living in an ideal world believing rebels are reasonable and peaceful when given a chance, until Alwan/Litalia throws the fact in her face. Ah well, in that case, I really shouldn't blame her when she herself realised it's a mistake.

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