Ineffable Wingbolt Mosquito---Slayer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Jeff has made it pretty clear that he is gonna stick with the same story for the remake of first triology,Now i am not sure about A1, but i think that if he wanted to do something innovative about A2 he could make the game with empire's point of view, we could actually play as adventurers who stole the crystal souls and we could turn the tables on avernum and vahnahti. seems pretty cool to me what are your views? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 That has no potential because we all know how the story ends - your accomplishments are overturned by a band of greasy cave dwellers, and the best case scenario is that you escape back to the surface in shame. More likely you're inevitably killed. Might make for an interesting BoA/E Scenario, but not a full blown Avernum game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Besides Jeff is lazy and wants to reuse as much as he can from the last version. Maybe someday he might write a game where the Empire is conquering Avernum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Avernum 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 More like Avernum 1.5 - there's the time between Avernum (where there were zero(?) Empire forts/scouts in the underworld) and Avernum 2 where the entire NW of Avernum had been invaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Nikki. More like Avernum 1.5 - there's the time between Avernum (where there were zero(?) Empire forts/scouts in the underworld) and Avernum 2 where the entire NW of Avernum had been invaded. There were a couple of empire outposts in A1. Most notably the one to which Khoth sends you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Depending upon your ending there is also the fort at the end of Avernum 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tyranicus Originally Posted By: Nikki. More like Avernum 1.5 - there's the time between Avernum (where there were zero(?) Empire forts/scouts in the underworld) and Avernum 2 where the entire NW of Avernum had been invaded. There were a couple of empire outposts in A1. Most notably the one to which Khoth sends you. Oh yeah. So A1.5 actually works better than I thought. It could go from just after the assassination of Hawthorne right up until the theft of the Crystal Souls, since that's the period where you've got the biggest Empire presence in the underworld, and the game wouldn't have to be "oh look, you lose. You lose. You lose." I mean. it wouldn't be much fun either way, in my opinion, but each to their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 why? it could be set up like Geneforge, where every faction can win but only one ends up as canon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Well, first, because in Geneforge you don't know in advance which side wins, so you at least have the possibility that your chosen ending will become canon (and then there's G5, which may well remain permanently ambiguous). Second, the Geneforge games start the PC out as either unaligned (G1, G5), or at least quickly present them with clear alternatives to their starting allegiance (G2-4). Neither of these seem like plausible options for an Empire soldier involved in the early stages of the invasion of Avernum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Rent-an-Ihrno Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 There's more than enough wins such a character could experience. The empire definately did succeed in stealing the crystal souls, no? Besides, I think fighting a losing battle, getting more and more desperate, could make for a very exciting game. Also, who said you'd have to have the Empires' interests in mind just because you play an Empire soldier? Would it really be unprecedented if you had the option to betray all sides for your own personal gain? Jeff won't ever remake any of the old Avernums with added faction options, but a new game with that kind of story would certainly be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 The Empire did not steal the Crystal Souls, but struck a deal with a Vahnatai faction to obtain them for research purposes. It would be quite easy to start a game as Empire scouts exploring Avernum and the Vahnatai Lands prior to the War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Jukai Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I can't see an Avernum 1.5 working out, story is too tight for the open-endedness that Jeff likes. Now, a first expedition PREQUEL.... that could have some wings. It would be tough without any cities though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Jukai Now, a first expedition PREQUEL.... that could have some wings. It would be tough without any cities though. Yeah, that's the one Jeff has vaguely mentioned (he's used the word "prequel" at least). I think if that happens he'll go after the First Expedition, and set it around the forming of Avernum; the First Expedition suffers the same problems as that flippant "Avernum 1.5" I threw out earlier - you know that everybody dies, so there's not much to be done with that. If he does set it around the forming of Avernum as a nation (assuming he ever makes it at all, this is pure speculation), you'll have your settlements (it's unlikely there'll be towns yet, but the Castle and the TotM might still be there, and villages etc), and instead of having to die like everybody in the First Expedition did, the party would actually have quite a lot to do in terms of major quests. I mean, there is the fight against the Nephilim, where Avernites push them back so that Fort Avernum could be built. There's the struggle with the Sliths to get established in the north and the Great Cave, and there's Grah-Hoth. And, the kicker here is, I'd love to play this game, and would prefer it to a First Expedition game, which is saying something, given how much I personally love games that do not let you win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Jukai Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Well, there's not a lot said about the first expedition and it's mostly hearsay-- I'm sure with some new information (and perhaps some minor retconning) we could have a new and exciting Avernum prequel. I feel like the game your describing would be too much like Avernum 1, not enough hook, while a first expedition game could be a totally new experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Jukai Well, there's not a lot said about the first expedition and it's mostly hearsay-- Well, sure, but we do know they blunder around and get killed. There are no towns to visit (no friendly ones, anyway), and nobody makes it out of the caves, so you couldn't even have it as some kind of survival RPG where you need to find the way out. (And okay, sure you could, but it goes against canon. And if Jeff does that, pretty much anything is possible and it's useless to speculate.) Edit: And I guess the game I described is a lot like Avernum 1, and the reason I'd play it is because I love Avernum 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Jukai Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Well, once again, the fact that they all blunder and get killed is hearsay... it's what the people of Avernum have heard and pieced together. It's easy to believe that they didn't know the whole story. Not to mention, Jeff hasn't exactly been shy about retconning minor details. I think it's totally possible to describe the adventures of the brave few who got separated from the main crowd and tried to survive a harsh and untamed underground world. Hell, it could even be open ended--- find the escape route, live down there forever, etc. etc. The issue is, as you said, creating a game with almost no towns, no way to sell items, limited social interaction... A lot of Jeff's games are big on dialogue so it would be a departure from normal, but it certainly would be new and innovative. You're right though, when I said "it'd be just like Avernum 1" I said it in a bad way but honestly that's a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 A few make it out to tell the tale. But you encounter plenty of the bodies and their items in Avernum 1. Although the brooches might have allowed the tale to get out when they all died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast *i Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Let's also not forget that there is a way to the surface as of A1. It's quite possible that a few escaped that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: *i Let's also not forget that there is a way to the surface as of A1. It's quite possible that a few escaped that way. This is especially true considering the false exits you find in A1 that are clearly sealed by magic. At the time of the First Expedition, there was more than one way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Mosquito---Slayer Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: Necris Omega we all know how the story ends - your accomplishments are overturned by a band of greasy cave dwellers, and the best case scenario is that you escape back to the surface in shame. More likely you're inevitably killed. . Well as far as i have seen jeff has been geneforgising(if that's a word) his games more and more. A6 was pretty much aveforge without the replay value. So he could assume any story he wants for A3, and maybe give us a option to help either avernum or empire. Originally Posted By: Necris Omega That has no potential Please don't be so cruel, you sound like shaper rawal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Originally Posted By: cute Melnachion Well as far as i have seen jeff has been geneforgising(if that's a word) his games more and more. A6 was pretty much aveforge without the replay value. So he could assume any story he wants for A3, and maybe give us a option to help either avernum or empire. Originally Posted By: Necris Omega That has no potential Please don't be so cruel, you sound like shaper rawal. No matter what "nuances" he works in, the concrete of the story is THE EMPIRE INEVITABLY LOSES. There's no deviating from that fact for there to be an A3. No matter how well you do as an Empire Soldier, no matter how skilled you are, no matter who you assassinate and conquer, your side loses, and that's the end of the discussion. Not only that but it would be such a wild deviation from the original game that it would barely be A2 at all. Not to mention how the Empire at this stage had a total, 100% genocide program for anything that wasn't human. That means an all human party. No thanks. This isn't A5, either. Avernum is not going to accept a bunch of surfacers just running around their lands at this point. It would just be too hard a pill to swallow. "Hi, I'm a part of the genocidal alien force bent on slaughtering your loved ones, can I speak to your mayor and see if she has a quest for me?" ... It doesn't work. Now, again, there is potential in this storyline, but not as a full blown game. If Jeff changed his mind and re-did another Blades game after all, I'd love to see this as an official scenario. But there are too many complications and incompatibilities to make A2 work from this angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Actually, this setup would work just fine Nethergate-style, where you have the choice of playing A2: Avernite or A2: Empire. Sharing areas would be more difficult, but you could still have both sides working against each other. And the ending could either be a foregone conclusion, where the Avernites simply outdo you—that's not a death sentence for a game, as Nethergate shows—or it could be Geneforge-like, where you can get a successful ending and the sequel then moves along with the canonical plot resolution. —Alorael, who still doesn't see it as a full-fledged game. The cool things in Avernum are quite heavily restricted to Avernites. He's sure a good version could be made, but it wouldn't be trivial, and it might have to end up as a shorter game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 If you actually read all of the text in E/A 1 about the First Expedition and what the caves were like before the Empire began exiling people there, there is actually A LOT of information. "Hearsay" doesn't really apply to historical research: the issue is to what degree sources can be verified by archeology, epigraphy, other historical sciences, or by corroboration. In this case, none of the information given ever conflicts with anything else, and since the game text is the only way the author has to communicate this kind of information about the world, it is pretty safe to assume it's true. I'd link to the EE article, but EE is down. Suffice it to say we know A LOT about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 And really, who wants to play a group of people about whom the most memorable statement is, "They were arrogant. They were stupid. And they were slaughtered." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Somebody (Gypsy?) put on plays about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Jukai Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 FnordCola: I guess you didn't like Nethergate =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Not Gypsy, but an actress in Fort Emerald? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 You're right. Eleanor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Who, the Romans? They lost a lot of soldiers, but I think they managed to do pretty well, given the strength of the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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