alhoon

Ornks have a niche? Really? Wands are equipable? I.e. I can't have a wand on my bag to heal from my quickslots and a weapon for bonuses? Or they can be used as wands normally from the pack and equipped? I don't mind either way, I just think this needs a bit of clarification from someone that doesn't have the mod. Regardless, this is very useful information. Perhaps link the post to the first post?

Then why nobody informed the Council?

This forum needs a double-like feature... Things like this make it harder to resist the pull of this beautiful, beautiful piece of work. Out of curiosity (I only play on normal): What are the changes in Tricky difficulty? I assume Normal is still Normal, without any difficulty adjustments, right?

I thought the discussion was about the journey from deep inside the "illegal Shaping" area to the Shaper Council. Carnelian can Shape up to Vlish so I think she could be able to make it out of Medab, but again not without danger. And that assumes Lying Zakary the Deceiver would allow her to leave the Servants without arresting her. But someone out of the Barzhite lands... that would be difficult without Barzhal being onboard. That said, Zan-? the newbie Shaper that doesn't have a bunch of powerful creations around him does move around pretty nicely after you clear a way to the cities. It seems that once you clear a path it remains safe-ish enough for a Shaper to cross, even as new as Zan-? Dawn on the other hand, the apprentice under the Shaper in Gerth that I cannot even talk to since I am Awakened, is certainly too weak to travel, unless she gets a serious military escort from Barzhites.

As for the Common I think they tell you "Oh, we don't do anything wrong, all is totally legal!" but from the discussions, I think most of them are at some degree aware. Especially in Drypeaks. Others are not aware of Shaper Law as it pertains to Creations. A Shaper told them "Help these serviles build a colony" and they chose to believe that these serviles are not rogue; I doubt Shapers explain to Common what "rogue" is. Well, Shanti didn't make it. Aside of hot-blooded Barzhites that may kill anyone attempting to cross to the Awakened lands, there is also a bunch of Rogues on the way. It is not without danger. Not for a full Shaper, true, with the exception of Shanti who is herself young, but certainly not without danger. The GF2 "apprentice" is at least level 12 at the time he or she reaches the Barzhites and the Barzhites allow him to come and go. If Barzhal wanted you dead, you would have a much harder time leaving.

I remember the inutile from the originals too; Mutagen expanded on them, but so far I have not seen much expansion on them in Infestation. Ehh... they trust them. In the original, Shanti pretty much gave her apprentice free reign to do what he wanted - after teaching him to Shape a few things. That was not against the law and she even mentions (I don't remember O-GF2 but I think there was something similar) that she is not allowed to teach her apprentice more but he or she could learn from Zackary's trainers. In GF3, we have the same with Lord Rhaul (or was it Do-something the Shaper in 2nd island?) saying he will help the Apprentice with his training that was cut short. I also do not get the "they are the bottom of the barrel" to be honest; that annoying guardian outside of Rhaul's palace mentions something about apprentices wandering around. As someone said in the topic of Zansital, he is like the guy that got his doctorate degree and is now cruising research centers to find a job. Zan doesn't seem worthless; he gives me the impression he has options but he is weighting them. I know several M.Sc graduates or docs that spent months to figure where they would like to go next. Not everyone is in a career path following earning a PhD. I seem to recall from GF5 that the Shaper Council eventually assigns prospectives to a job, but that is over a decade (and a war) after GF2. They do seem out of place, that's true. I mean, it is a barred island. Strongly barred.

I am half-way through my first playthrough. Do you suggest I finish my game, pre-Overrun, or do you think I should restart with your mod? I have finished Original GF2 with the Awakened and unaligned. So, when you suggest "second playthrough" do you mean... second playthrough of Infestation or of the story altogether? Some of the changes you present are very intriguing and the more-quests is always a plus for me... EDIT: I think I will finish this run and then try Overrun with a Guardian. We will see if I manage to resist. EDIT2: Not that I have not praised this awesome effort already, but another thing: This mega-mod is a dream come true. I have been in this forum for how many years now, I have always tried to "promote modding" with mods big and small, hoping, dreaming of a mod that had half of what this mod promises. This is a dream come true! Just thinking of the amount of dedication, hours of testing and coding, days of testing and coding that would be needed to bring to the game Slarty's vision is leaving me in awe. IN AWE!

Your answer is of course acceptable. I would just say though that I while I didn't use the mod (yet), I took a look here and there, but didn't want to look at the mod deeply because I see there are quests and I want to avoid spoilers. The reason I asked if submods are allowed is because this seems (by size and previews) an well polished work of art. If I had to choose between using your mod or my mods... I would pick your mod. But there will most probably be a few things here and there that I would probably want to add (like parking Creations to a handler, a couple of quests to give some followers extra abilities, a different ending etc.) Still, it is your mod and an absolute beast at it, so of course we will do as you ask. I can't congratulate you enough over this and of course I will respect your wishes. I just hope that once it is completed, you would rethink about permissions.

Can we get some analysis for Overrun? It is not urgent; I am pretty far in the game to restart it, but I would be helpful.

You say we should not release altered versions of this mod. Could we do submods for this? If not, could I send you, personally, a mod I have done to "park creations" in Eastern Medab instead of killing them, so you could perhaps include it in your next update?

Absolutely massive. A thunderous applaud!!!! You made my week, not my day, my week. Having worked on other mods, I have an inkling of the massive amount of work this would have taken. I fail to express how thankful I am. You did the community a great service!

Wait, if the disease hits Shaped-people instead of Creations... my character needs to start stocking antibiotics.

I don't remember anything like that and from what I remember from Taygen's info, it is deep romantic connections that are frown upon.

Then why did it affect only serviles?

If it run in families, there would be very few Shapers left, as they strongly look down on families. You create life though magic, not through nature! So, I think it is not purely inherent talent because then it would have been "bred out" of the population. PS. I edited my post above after you posted.

That Trakjov's madness was not blatant, doesn't mean it wasn't there. I agree that he handled it well though. As for the "from a Doylist perspective, this has to do with the fact that the exact effects of self-Shaping developed over the course of the series" ... the PC in GF1 becomes more detached than Tuldaric is, a powerhungry psychopath. After you use the Geneforge and go to the continent you see even Shapers as insignificant insects. And the other Shapers that use the Geneforge if you didn't destroy it are the same. Terrestia is ravaged by 12 Monarchs. I have not seen the Barzhite ending of GF2-I but I doubt Barzhal becomes as mad as the GF1-M protagonist. I read in the endings that even Goetch the Shaper that the Sholai stole goes ballistic and lands with a huge force and starts tearing stuff up. Thus... yes, Trakjov seems to the be the one handling it the best from humans. Even the much Lauded GF4 protagonist, that uses a different and lesser one goes mad when he or she downs several canisters. The Drakons handle the Geneforge and the canisters better. And from GF4 (Litalia reigns it in albeit remaining irrevocably lacking empathy and being mad to the end of her days). There is also ample evidence that Shapers are not having a full house up there to begin with. Think of it: They are arrogant, extremely powerful, can create life with a whim and they are reigned in by a very rigid set of laws. Then, Canisters / Geneforge. That's already breaking the laws. So, a Shaper that is ready to do it (Rawal) has already removed the "breaks" (obedience to one of the most sacred parts of Shaper Law) before he even takes his first canister. And he or she does that ... for power. So, again, we already have an individual with the afomentioned traits removing the breaks in the quest for power. Then, we have the progressive lack of empathy and cannister addiction. Addiction makes people do things they wouldn't do and take risks they wouldn't take. Lack of Empathy on someone that can create life with a thought will sooner or later translate on "Life is expendable, cause I can replace it". The thought of "Oh, a car killed your dog? I will replace it with a better dog!" but for people. All those are there BEFORE the madness begins for Shapers.

But it is not just in GF3 though; in all games a disease is mentioned. I mean, in GF2-I there's a big quest to fight a disease.

First, everything the Shapers do in war, is bio-warfare. Second, they do diseases. In GF3 you find one. Also, the Takers use diseases in their fights. However, in the Game's timeframe, the Shapers are in control. Why would they create a disease to fight 16 bandits in the woods or something like an uprising of 10 villages? There is no widespread rebellion or big-sized enemy to necessitate something as double-edged as a disease.

ohhhh... so I should have checked the Original GF1 endings. Got it. I will. Apologies. I will hold my ground on the insects thing, though. I remember seeing the Shapers as insects.

Ehh... I did look for the endings of Mutagen-1 but I didn't see a list.

From what I recall, Trakjov's motivation was madness and powerlust. He was like a never-have-been-good Tuldaric or a not-trained-Barzhite in my books. Creation freedoms was a bleep in his radar. I remember thinking of the Shapers in ... that city I land, as insects.

Because we don't agree on how important it was to take down the Shapers. The war and devastation that follows the Drakon wars are what is needed to dismantle the Shaper Empire and bring justice (or revenge if you want) to the Shapers for their crimes. "in the Awakened ending, that stance works out for the best." A perpetual stalemate the sees the Shaper Empire smaller by a mountain range and weaker by a few thousand Serviles? No, I do not consider that something to be proud about. If I could, I would simply force the Awakened and the Takers to make peace - or at least a Truce. Awakened would guard Drypeak and the Takers could go wild outside - and bring in Serviles and willing Shapers to the Awakened. The Awakened supporting all out war is not something they want, and the Takers giving anything to the Awakened or looking for Shapers to Spare is certainly something they don't want. Thus, it would be very hard to accomplish. Perhaps if beating the Takers hard enough and eliminating their extremists could work. But on the other hand, a moderate Taker that sees his or her leaders killed over ideological differences is unlikely to remain moderate...

And remember there is a bug or something, that items that give Creation Strength don't work, as far as I remember. That said... I strongly recommend to switch to GF2-Infestation. It is a great improvement.

I am officially moving to Lifecrafter from Shaper: 1. I have consumed two cannisters. 2. I am paying a veteran in Eastern Medab to care for my Creations. (<== This is a mod I made, don't look for him). Thus, proving that self-shaping works and refusing to simply kill my creations even if it bites me financially, I am a Lifecrafter. Down with Shaper Tyranny! Glory to the Rebellion!

I didn't say he was a failed Awakened. I said he has shown sympathies for the Serviles. Not enough to call him Awakened, certainly. Would Shanti have saved any Servile from Sucia? Probably not, to be honest. On the rest, we agree. I didn't mean to imply that he did what he did because of his Servile Sympathies and he is quick to throw them away. PS. Pinner's stance is open to ridicule, to be honest. Trying to convince the Shapers to treat them like Common is a bad-cannister dream. The way to acceptance and for the Shapers to change their entire world-view is through brutal war and tearing down the Shaper Empire, and to do that, one has to kill about 80% or so of the Shapers.