alhoon

I agree. I am just comparing them To Taygen that didn't make those exceptions. Taygen's genocide was unparalleled in history for its efficiency. Enough to push even the Shapers to admit that perhaps the Trakovites have some point. Sharon expected to be punished when found out and when the illegal Shaping started she expected to be executed for her negligence. Khyryk ... I don't remember but in GF4, Trakovites are executed by gibbeting, letting them to die from starvation hanging from a cage. The Shapers are not tolerant of the Trakovites. The Rebels, with the exception of Litalia in GF4 (Lololol) are kinda-tolerant to the Trakovites; most consider them fools and only Litalia hunts them down as dangerous ideology (again, lol). Khyryk is targeted when he is still a sitting Shaper lord though; I don't think they target him in GF4. Unless I remember wrong (and I very well could be), only Litalia wants him dead in GF4, not Greta. That said, your point is again correct: The Takers do not make exceptions for any Shaper that is not on their side. The Rebels may do, but the Rebels are not Takers, they are "Takers and Friends" and it is mostly the "and friends" that are willing to do the exceptions. I understand why the Takers (or even the Rebels) would label even ex-Shapers as the enemy. That doesn't make it right though.

Ah, Taygen... Taygen doesn't do half-measures. The Takers are willing to leave some friendly Shapers and when they form the Great Rebellion, Shapers that change sides (Litalia, Greta, the player character, etc) are tolerated or even elevated depending on how far they go. Taygen? Taygen even kills the batons, the living tools, the doors. He sends the Shapers to the dark age. I also completely agree that "They are out to get uuuuuuuuuuus!!!!" has been used to justify genocide since time immemorial, way before the word genocide was invented 100 years ago. Another very common trope to justify genocide is "they did it first!!" / "Juuusticeeee!!!" See the Rwandan Genocide that started as retaliation by the Hutu against the Tutsi. That said: I am still not convinced the Awakened way leads to anything but a prolonged stalemate that is doomed to end in a collapse 30, 50, 100 years after the game ends. But I will have to reach the ending to find out. And I am still at level 11. And in the case of the Drayks and Drakons? They are right. The Shapers are out to get them.

The Takers would be right for many reasons. 1. The Shapers would come for the Awakened Nation sooner or later, even if a peace holds for 10 or 40 years. 2. The Shapers were hunting and killing them for no reason, there's no reason to think they won't do so again. 3. Putting the interests and Safety of Drayks, Drakons and rogue Serviles aside, the Shakers need to be taken down, because they are an evil, oppressive empire. The Common don't have it bad, compared to Creations or compared to other totalitarian / Theocratic / non-democratic regimes in history. But the Creations? No, they have reason to want to end the Shapers.

I disagree. Vigilantism is not good, but seeking revenge / justice over the slights you suffered doesn't put you in the no-excuse evil box. And it can be argued that Taking your Free is not just suicide-by-Shaper but a desire to die a free being, which is frankly admirable and their most endearing quality.

Xander is a mage servile that is recruitable for the Awakened. Being fond of Xander and always on the lookout for an extra pair of hands (or claws), I made this small mod so that Xander will be useful for a few more levels, without ever being overly powerful. Here is the link for the mod. What the mod does: - It slightly increases Xander's level as the PC gains levels. To do that, you must visit Medab with Xander in the party. Xander gains +1 level when the PC reaches levels 10, 12 and 13. This reflects that as Xander travels with you, he becomes more experienced. However, his potential to reach is not that much; Xander will reach level 15 when the PC reaches level 13 and remain there. - At the PC level 11 Xander does not gain a level. However, the PC can talk to Cayche in the Magus Complex (as long the player is Awakened). If you perform a short fetch quest for her, she will increase Xander's proficiency with his spells. The change won't be dramatic; Xander gets +2 magic skill (+10% damage) and a +2 to +3 to the various spells he already knows. This will boost his damage somewhat without bringing him on par with a tier 3 creation. - Xander receives some minor resistances when you find him. These resistances slowly increase with his level. - Xander, as written in the game, had Searer as a default ranged attack AND as an active ability, which I found strange. I replaced his 2nd searer with a different spell. Installation Instructions: From Steam library, click on geneforge on the list to open the menu, go to "Browse local files", navigate to the "scripts" folder and overwrite the four scripts there with the scripts in the zip file.

That... is a very interesting question. I don't know the answer. I disagree with you that the Awakened are happy for the Drayks to be genocided as the Awakened always talk about thinking creations. They even include the Gazers in that, which the later Rebels do not. But I am not sure all the Awakened are willing to fight to the end for the Drayks, no. They are willing to talk it out with the Shapers. But if it comes to the Shapers saying "And you will not allow Drayks in your lands, or no deal!" ... I don't know, I honestly don't know what the Awakened would say. I am sure some Awakened will say "No. They are thinking creations." But I also sure some Awakened will say "sad, but we had to compromise to end the war." and the "if we have to throw the Drayks under the bus in order to end the war so be it" faction would grow in power as the war goes on. ON THE OTHER HAND: Barrier of the Winds. There is evidence that the Awakened will align with a "new generation" of Drakons that are not Takers. And I doubt even the Awakened will be that stupid to turn on their most powerful guards if the Shapers say "get rid of them, and then we talk." So, to surmise: It is certain that the Awakened will push for Drayk/Drakon rights. I am not so certain if they will go to the end for the Drayks. And I am actually certain they will never ever fight with the tenacity the Drayks will for the Drayks' right to survive. Heck, the Awakened are not willing to fight for their survival with the tenacity that Taker Serviles fight. It is not like the Awakened are not aware what will happen to them if the Shapers win. Even the Obeyers have been purged in Sucia. Let alone the Awakened. And yet, the Awakened are fighting a battle for their own survival with one hand tied behind their back. Against 10 foes. Their plan is to fight with one hand tied behind their back and a big stick in a small corridor so that the 10 foes will come one at a time. If I was a Drayk, I would be against the Awakened too, but not for the reasons you say. Well, kinda. From what I remember the dialogues with the Awakened leaders (plural) they always say "all thinking creations" which includes Drayks. But what the Drayks see is passiveness that will lead to their extermination. Lack of the conviction needed to avoid the genocide. When you are standing on the oil soaked field and the enemy is approaching with the torch, it is not the time to discuss whether you should first shout to the enemy to not do it, to try to reason with him as he holds the torch that will set you and all you love ablaze, before shooting him. And thus, we are back to your question: When genocide is on the line, is a moderate approach even morally good? I don't know. It is a hard question. But I know what a Drayk would think. ================================================================================= Back at being angry at Alvarny. I cleared the enemy encampment. And what do the Serviles do? Do they try to reclaim the supplies of the enemy? How about fortifying the enemy caves so the Takers won't simply slip inside again? Nope, they are tired (understandable) and so they all go back. Not a single guard left for the camp or the other camp. Just a patrol on the road. Which worked so marvelously the previous time.

Level of a creation (not of an NPC but something you made) will reset instantly to what it should be, though. Keep that in mind. Attributes, maximum health etc remain.

Also to address this: The awakened do not want to fight. They want peace. Which is my main issue with them. They take the blows to the chin and try to go high when others go low. At some point, you have to punch back. The Ghandi resistance cannot work when you are a small community of villages surrounded by monsters. When you find the Taker spy, the Awakened are happy to let him flee. Another thing I noticed: There are many Awakened that are too servile (not the race, I couldn't think of another word to show they are too awed by you and quasi-worship you and seem happy to serve you). Some are ex-obeyers, obviously, but I can see why the Takers are getting Sucia-cleansing flashbacks. What I mean is that, honestly, for every Awakened Servile that tells you 'I want to fight' or 'you go clean that mess your people made!' you find someone that goes biiig eyed and say "Shaper! Shaper! Will you save us with your awesome power?" or "You returned one of my ornks! Here is a reward worth x20 what the ornk is worth!". Pinner herself was brow-beaten by an apprentice, because I did not kill that Taker Drayk and still joined. That Drayk deserves to live, as far as I am concerned. I may take down the Roamer-making but unless I have to, I won't kill that Taker in the mines. Example: See that? He simply bows his head happily and obeys my order. The guy is an obeyer / Servant in the wrong side of the tunnel. I am pro-Awakened and I am of half of a mind to help the Takers kill those guys. I do not want absolute purity of ideals but the guy is 80% Servant and 20% Awakened as far as I am concerned. People like him will flee the Shapers when the time comes or worse, they will become the 5th column that will hamper Awakened effort. The Rebellion needs to wean out those people from the fighting force. No, not KILL poor Alvarny, but certainly not give him a weapon when facing Rogues (as they scare the loyal Serviles and he is mostly loyal) or Shapers. He can go fight bandits or something or better, work in the fields and stump those critters the Takers or Barzites send out to destroy crops.

But the Taker and Barzhite war have "no end in sight" just for the forseable future. It is easy to assume the Takers may win after 20-30 years of extremely brutal warfare that leaves entire provinces as ruined wasteland, crawling with shredbugs and whatever those new pests the Takers threw on the Servants are called. We can assume the Barzhites have a decent chance to win throwing armies of cannister junkies on enemy Guardians to the same effect. For the Awakened, at most, they will get the valley at peace and shadow-road a few thousand serviles there, with an eye on how much population the valley can support and all the while fighting renewed Shaper attacks. And after the Serviles start growing too many there will be a system of saving those that are the most helpful to the Awakened Nation, not those that want liberty the most. You will have Serviles saying they don't want more Serviles to come and that the Awakened Nation's obligation is only to the Serviles-within-borders etc. Asylum committees will be set up and all. Pinner's ideals are pure but what about three leaders down the line? How long before the Awakened Nation gets an anti-immigration movement and how long, in the face of Shaper Retaliations of stealing Serviles and increasing population, that xenophobic faction gains power? Is that what Elirah would want? The Takers have the Geneforge though. They can make Shapers not just Cannistered-Commons like Rawals agents (not capital A, the cannistered-up people he uses). The failure rate of the geneforge for humans is ... well not that bad! Presumably not as bad as the Tuldaric's ritual on Serviles. I don't think that is remotely true. I think the Drayks decided to abandon the Awakened and join the Takers. Because the Shapers don't want to talk to the Drayks, they want to kill the drayks. Wyx places it very well. Also, Wyx is a rogue drayk. That you can command. Which Lying Zackary the Deceiver tells you it is impossible. Not hard, impossible. It is not the Barzhites that put up those Spawners, and it is more than "A few rogues". The Takers are spamming Rogues, Litalia-like tactic of making them, sending them away and then severing control, and they send them to starve the Awakened. The Awakened are downright besieged by the Takers, while the Barzhites have much less of an issue (well, they are stronger) and the Servants are taking the less attacks (they are far away though). Because the Awakened are "Defend and talk it out, even in the face of a freaking siege". The Awakened plan is to give 50 chances or so to the Takers. They eventually kill their leaders hoping to stop much of the bloodshed and give a chance to the Takers to sue for peace before the "I win" button of hundreds of powerful flying Drakons taking down the Takers. Zhass-Uss is not attacked and the Awakened have not sent spies to them, which Pinner admits it was a mistake. Not really, no. The Awakened are seen by both Takers and Barzhites as the weak-link. The Takers attack because they are not afraid of retaliation. Many of the Takers hate the Awakened because they are ideologically impure. Check civil wars; the moderates have it worst and those branded as traitors to the cause are the first to be attacked. For pragmatist Takers, the Awakened are easy targets for loot, glory, and research. If the Takers take over the Awakened, they can open a second front on the side of the Barzhites to squeeze them like bugs, and have a big buffer zone for the inevitable Shaper retaliation. It makes absolute tactical sense for the Takers to attack the Awakened when in a stalemate with the Barzhites and it is also very understandable for the rank-and-file that hate the "traitors".

I am pretty sure those islands were not inhabited, or were inhabited by a few fishermen. They are crap even after centuries of Shaper control.

I will see how the new finale plays out, but an eternal stalemate (even if it is that) is not victory.

And on top of that, their ideology is the most benign. In fact, they are too good to win a war against the Shapers. The Awakened want justice, peace and freedom. Nothing more.

We hear about the old cultures here and there in the games, and there are different cultures that play a significant role in GF5.

The awakened are not Slavers. Tuldaric's target-practice creations are rogues they have captured, and those are unintelligent beings. You don't see Taker Serviles used as target practice. Furthermore some soldiers being not-exactly-brave doesn't paint the faction as non-good. The Awakened morals are good morals. How closely the individual Awakened follows them is up to the person. The Shaper doctrine is oppressive and evil. The Taker doctrine espouses intellectual genocide (and for a good reason...) and no-holds-barred fight (again, for understandable reasons). The Barzhites... well, they don't even pretend to not be evil, they just think they should be allowed to be evil and powerhungry and the Shaper Law is too tame for them. The Awakened assassinating enemy leaders and dangerous radicals is absolutely justified; those three Drakons Drayks leading the ideologically closer party, are in open war with the Awakened, sending monsters to kill them and pests to ruin their lands. This is killing the leadership of the enemy army to end the war. The Takers are not attacking the Servants in full force. Noooope, they save their vengeance and the majority of their energy to fight the Awakened. It is no surprise that the Awakened want the leaders dead in a (predictably naive) assumption that this may lead to the Takers humbled, returning back to the Fold. No, the Awakened killing the leaders of the enemy faction that targets them is the Awakened attempt to give a second chance to the Takers, before they will have to crush them with the Barrier of the Winds. It is what is required to extend a bloodied olive branch to the Takers, hoping they will take it (or some of them will take it) before the Awakened press the "I win" button. It is mercy towards the mid-rank and rank-and-file Taker Servile of "we can kill your leaders and we can defeat the Shapers. Join us before it is too late".

I think the Barzhites talked about their Utopia in O-GF2 too. And they walk the walk on that. It was not Lying Zackary the Deceiver that made the valley lush. And for all my love for Awakened, without the Barzhites, they don't do well as evident when you go out of Medhab in that bridge and you are told the fields are weak, or when you go closer to the Taker lands and you are told the valley is not well transformed there. He was still an arrogant butthole in GF1-M, as far as I recall. Greta is limited in her role as leader because she is moderate; Litalia leads the human faction of the Rebellion in GF4 and in GF5, the humans are mostly sidelined. Ghaldring appears rational but he tries to bring the Drakon Lifecrafter Empire after the fall of the Shaper Empire. Well, that's not irrational, but it is backstabbing all of us except his buddies. The Takers/Rebels seem to include at least a Drakon in each game that wants you to kill the competition inside their own faction.

The Awakened are the good guys. But morals don't often win wars. In a few cases, yes. Not often. As for the Takers, BEFORE you are given a chance to be tolerated, they are fighting you and they are fighting those nice people you met that want peace. They are presented as dangerous radicals that would use every trick at their disposal to win. Which is exactly what they are, BTW. The fact that for them it is a fight for the right to exist, not the right to be free, is not something that comes up until after you have been attacked a bunch of times by Takers.

Yes. I have seen all those too. Which is why I said I would need 14 essence mastery and end-level to get 4x4 (four tier four) creations, and even then, the non-Primary ones would be far more expensive (bought levels) and still way below the level I need. And if I invest that heavily in essence mastery, my primary Shaping class will take a severe hit. I am all about playing suboptimal if it is fun, but buying up to 11 essence mastery by the end game is going to seriously gimp my character. It is quite clear you cannot have all the top-tiers. Even getting Rotdhizons, requires battle shaping 5. Battle Shaping 5 requires me to buy 2 more battle shaping. Gazers require me to buy magic shaping 2 (and then wear my magic armor for 3, shape and ditch the armor). And if I do that, the Gazer would be easily 10 levels below the Drakons. At that point, I would be much better off with another drayk. I bought Vlish from Carnelian and the ones I can make, even if I buy every level I can for them, are much weaker than my Fyora. Look, the TL;DR version is: dreaming of the 4x4 is good... as a dream. I have managed it in the past. Now, it is a serious handicap, not just suboptimal, like the challenges people like, like playing solo or pacifist. It requires serious investment of my finite amount of skill points for something very suboptimal. Even if you get the 4x4, the huge level disparity would make your non-primaries as useful as tier 3 of your main path.

Sounds good, I will look it up.

Indeed, but as I said, the previous time they were convincing that my place was with the Awakened... XD Anyway, some Takers are moderate Takers. But the greatest danger to a fanatic is not the enemy, it is the moderates. The moderates are eaten up first in such disputes. Also, the moderates in a civil war are the ones that least expect to be brutally attacked. From what I have seen, when there is a civil war or ideological war between fanatics A and B, with AB moderates somewhere in between, the A will see AB and B as enemies while the B will see AB and A as enemies. For A, AB are 90% guilty. For B AB are also 90% guilty. And for many of those, the AB are traitors not just enemies. For the rest... AB are often easier targets! Either because AB have to defend against both sides or because AB have some faith in A and B and the peaceful solution or a combination of both. I.e. AB are ideologically weaker so the enemies easier to take out.

And I cheat-saw Rotdhizons and they are absolute beasts in battle. I mean, they can get a passive 30% resistance + an active 40% resistance.... that is nuts. That works out as 52% resistance to all, effectively doubling their already high hp. Look, let's be honest here: There are no bad paths. All tier 4s are awesome. Sure, sure, Battle Alphas are disappointing compared to Ghaalks and Drayks, but I think they have that leap, which makes them not-useless and their damage scales with level. Now, the Clawbugs (not the iron ones) were a real disappointment.

Thank you, Twini, for reminding me why I strongly dislike the Shapers to start with. And now, I also feel guilty for using pyroroamers in GF1-M. They were... convenient. Exactly as Twini says. They were to be made in suffering and swiftly die because the Sholai held a bridge and it was convenient to send pyroroamers. I was not aware they were in pain, to be honest. I thought they were not. But I knew very well that I was Shaping them, giving them life, only for the few minutes they needed to rush to the bridge and suicide-bomb the turrets. To my defense, I don't buy Overload for my Creations. Well, if I go back to Rots I will, cause I don't care about Rots. If the Shapers were killing Rots I would find it questionable bit not a reason to go to war. I don't know why. At the time, in the Awakened lands, watching what the Awakened have suffered and what they are willing to accept from the Shapers, I am of half-a-mind to jump ship and join the Takers. Back in GF2, what stopped me from joining the Takers was, of course, the Takers. I need to clear my mind and steel my Awakened conviction. I need to find Takers that will insult me and talk of genocide and work against completely innocent Serviles of the Awakened for their lack of "ideological purity." Frankly, GF2 is "The best argument against a faction is talking to members of that faction and seeing their lands." After the shock of Tuldaric's madness and callousness, after the pacificist naivety of Pinner when my blood boils seeking Shaper heads... I need to find Takers to remind me why I prefer the Awakened.

I did some rough calculations. No, this is not for an optimized run, but for what I think I would like most. In order to have have: 2 well built Drakons (all abilities+1 level) I would need 118 essence. 1 well built Drayk (4 abilities+3 levels) I would need 38 essence 1 Well built Ur-Drakon (4 abilities) I would need 66 essence 1 Rotdhizon/Gazer (all abilities+2/4 levels to account for lacking Battle/Magic shaping) I would need 75/70 essence. I would need about 297 Essence. Leaving a little essence for spells and healing, that's 310 essence. Considering I am not a completionist, I will probably be end-game at level 18-19. To have that dream team by level 18, I would need 14 essence mastery for 304 essence. Assuming I grab three of those free Essence Mastery things, I would need to buy up essence mastery up to 11. I realize this will kinda hamper my creations as essence mastery is anything but cheap. But it is something I need to consider. Chances are, I will never have that dream team...

I didn't sell any mandrake or residue. But I plan to charge my Felix on the guy that killed Shanti as soon as possible. And I have no residue nor I was planning to fight the Infernals.

The way I see his resistances, it is 90% armor, 86% on energy, fire, etc. and immunity to mind (or stun, not sure).

... Crap.