A5 review

[VCH]

"As far as main plots go, I liked Avernum 4's better. "

 

Here

[64566788]

Faint.

It seem we post the same review.

[VCH]

Didn't notice the other one.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by VCH:
"As far as main plots go, I liked Avernum 4's better. "

I could actually understand this opinion from someone who hadn't played Avernum 3, but the reviewer apparently has.

[Brother None]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by VCH:
"As far as main plots go, I liked Avernum 4's better. "

I could actually understand this opinion from someone who hadn't played Avernum 3, but the reviewer apparently has.

Actually no, I didn't, Avernum 3 is one of the Spiderweb games I skipped. As much as I like Spiderweb, I don't have the longevity to play all Vogel's games.

So what, did I say something stupid? I didn't think Avernum 4's plot was particularly inspiring either, note, and certainly think A5 the better game, but I felt A4's core plot (note, core plot is just the lead story and nothing else) was slightly better on the originality. A5 felt just like revisiting an old friend, shooting of all possible existing cliches at my head. Seriously, a rebel rebelling to save his kingdom through strength? Been there.

[Mea Tulpa]

So, here's the punch line. The "core plot" of Avernum 4 was EXACTLY the same as Avernum 3: powerful Vahnatai sorceress Rentar-Ihrno tries to get revenge on humans by unleashing hordes of monsters on them. That's why your comment about it being more original sounds so strange.

 

And if we're looking at RPG cliches, you really can't beat "powerful evil wizard, allied with demons, bent on destroying all of humanity, unleashes lots of monsters. Kill the monsters and the wizard." I mean, that's the plot of half the CRPGs ever made, if not more than half.

[Walter]

It sounds like he was probably playing on normal difficulty, if he found it too easy despite making the questionable choice mentioned of taking negative traits (weak mind on fighters and frailty on mages).

[Evnissyen]

So, some people find preferences in A4 over A5... why are the rest of you berating them?

 

Although I disagree that A4 had a stronger plot (I actually feel that A5's plot is a little stronger, or at least it's tended to more fervently)... I do think that you can make at least one valid point in favor of A4 over A5, which is that in A4 I felt a much greater sense of mission than I do in A5.

 

Somebody on these boards mentioned that the npc's in A4 were just petty rich people, tourists and people who didn't know how to react to troublemakers, rather than a nation of strong, fierce people filled with hatred for the Empire... . If I can say one negative thing about A5 (and I do find the game an improvement over A4) it's that the I hate you, please do your business and move on attitude gets a little tiresome after a while. Whenever the game gets away from that, I tend to feel better and start to have more fun.

 

So... I guess that means that I'm hoping that in A6 I get to be Avernum again. Or even Vahnatai: It would be nice to play a Vahnatai in Vahnatai lands if they do, in fact, end up in a war with Avernum & the Empire. I don't want to be an unwelcome stranger in a strange land, again.

[Locmaar]

Quote:

Originally written by Indicative v. Performative:
So, here's the punch line. The "core plot" of Avernum 4 was EXACTLY the same as Avernum 3: powerful Vahnatai sorceress Rentar-Ihrno tries to get revenge on humans by unleashing hordes of monsters on them. That's why your comment about it being more original sounds so strange.

... and while this is true, one wouldn't notice if one had not played Avernum/Exile 3.

Quote:

Originally written by Brother None
As much as I like Spiderweb, I don't have the longevity to play all Vogel's games.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean, Brother None, but I hope that one day I might reach immortality by playing the last of Jeff's games.

Welcome to the boards, albeit for a brief glimpse.

[Student of Trinity]

To each their own, of course, but I really like A5's plot. Not particularly for its originality in broad outline, but stringing previously unimagined chains of events together is not the only way to have a good plot. A large proportion of the world's great works of literature are variations on a small number of classic plot devices, after all. They're classic because they're good, and the implementation details can make them great. So can using a simply implemented classic plot as a framework to support a substantial theme.

 

A5 is a hunt into dangerous unexplored territory, and that's certainly classic. The theme of competition for space runs right through it, and crops up at about a dozen different angles, all of which give one something to think about. At first that seems to be a different story that the hunt has unexpectedly brought you into, but by the end it becomes clearer that it was really what the hunt was about from the beginning. Most of the various versions of the theme are pretty insistent as you encounter them, which is only right, but the game never hits you over the head with any overall message. This seems to me to really work.

[Thralni]

I think it was a nice review, but there is was one thing that bothers me: the core thing that makes Avernum 5 so different from the others in the series, the fact that you play an Empire soldier instead of the Avernite adventurer. I think that this is the thing that amkes Avernum 5 so much better than Avernum 4. It completely changes your pereption of the world you knew very well: it makes it into something you hardly know, and that's, I think, what creates the tension and excitement. I'm not saying it makes the plot a lot better (a crappy plot remains a crappy plot, after all), what I am saying, is that it lifts the plot above the level of Avernum 4 by providing a different view. Not mentioning this big thing in the review seems odd to me, and not realising this means that you have missed the point, to a certain extent.

 

Okay, true, this doesn't count for people who didn't play Avernum 4, 3, 2 and 1, but since the reviewer did, I'm disappointed he didn't mention it.

[Alorael at Large]

Being employees of the Empire wandering in the caves doesn't actually have a huge impact on the game. I mostly forgot about it for most of the time. The same was true in A3: your band of pale Avernites, possibly including sliths who have no business on the surface and nephils who aren't exactly popular either, goes largely without notice. Sometimes you get called out on being Worms, but in an apathetic way.

 

—Alorael, who concludes that the ethnic category of "adventurer" trumps all other considerations. After all, what does species, skin color, or faith matter when they're taking everything in you rhouse that's not nailed down?

[Brother None]

Quote:

Originally written by Indicative v. Performative:
So, here's the punch line. The "core plot" of Avernum 4 was EXACTLY the same as Avernum 3: powerful Vahnatai sorceress Rentar-Ihrno tries to get revenge on humans by unleashing hordes of monsters on them. That's why your comment about it being more original sounds so strange.

Hmmm, ok. As I said, I didn't play A3, so my bad there. Though I should note I'm not just reviewing comparing to other Avernums, but also to other games in general.

Quote:

Originally written by Indicative v. Performative:
And if we're looking at RPG cliches, you really can't beat "powerful evil wizard, allied with demons, bent on destroying all of humanity, unleashes lots of monsters. Kill the monsters and the wizard." I mean, that's the plot of half the CRPGs ever made, if not more than half.

'course, but it's not the basic plot, thinned down, that has the capability to be original, it's how you fill it in.

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
A5 is a hunt into dangerous unexplored territory, and that's certainly classic. The theme of competition for space runs right through it, and crops up at about a dozen different angles, all of which give one something to think about. At first that seems to be a different story that the hunt has unexpectedly brought you into, but by the end it becomes clearer that it was really what the hunt was about from the beginning.

I separate the main plot as story and the individual places you encounter as setting. They are mixed, obviously, but not so much that they can not be treated separately.

Quote:

Originally written by Walter:
Being employees of the Empire wandering in the caves doesn't actually have a huge impact on the game. I mostly forgot about it for most of the time.

Aye, I had the same experience. It's there, but it's hardly prominent.

Quote:

Originally written by Walter:
It sounds like he was probably playing on normal difficulty, if he found it too easy despite making the questionable choice mentioned of taking negative traits (weak mind on fighters and frailty on mages).

I turned up difficulty several times. Like I said in the review, since difficulty is freely adaptable, I consider it an academic point.

As for "questionable choice", I always do this in Avernum games, and it has never let me down. Simply adapt your tactics so your wizards are rarely attacked and use mindshield for your warriors. It has never let me down. Considering I could turn up difficulty and still barely break a sweat in all except the toughest fights (I think difficulty was still turned up in all of the last area), because my characters are so strong, I don't think it can be qualified as a "questionable choice".

[Mea Tulpa]

It really can be qualified as "questionable choice" given how experience works in Avernum 4 and 5. A Slith, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior will only end up a handful of levels behind a character with no advantages, despite a seemingly huge experience penalty, because experience is scaled by level very harshly. And he gets truly disgusting bonuses: at level 30, it's +14 to Blademaster, 6 to Pole Weapons, +6 to Parry, +8 to Magery, +8 to Sharpshooter, 20% free armor and fire resistance. All that and he only misses out on 10 or 20 skill points and a fragment of HP and SP. Likewise, taking disadvantages won't actually earn you a noticeable number of levels.

[Student of Trinity]

Mmm, but you know, it probably gives you that little extra bit of traction in the early game, when things are normally toughest because you haven't got a lot of stuff yet to optimize with. Sure, by the late game it translates into just a couple of levels, which translates into maybe one more point in some skill that's already high — big deal. But by the late game you're generally cruising, anyway. If the bad traits push you into cruise mode sooner, that's making the game significantly easier.

[Mea Tulpa]

Even at level 1, you get +3 Blademaster, +2 Pole Weapons, +2 Parry, +1 Magery and +1 Sharpshooter. And 20% armor. At that point it's a plain old bonus over the disadvantaged character. Of course the disadvantaged character will quickly get 1 level up ahead, and probably 2 level ups ahead fairly soon. Of course by that point the bonuses will have started to increase! But that's still trading 10 skill points for 5+ levels of pole damage and to-hit, 2+ free points in battle disciplines, 2+ parry, and the 20% armor.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record on this one, but the mechanics themselves are a little bit broken.

[Student of Trinity]

All I'm saying is that even the bad traits might still be better than normalcy.

[Randomizer]

I forgot to get traits once in the start and what happens is you gain levels faster to recharge spell energy with minor differences in damage. In the long run you have less powerful characters without all those really nice special skills. Depending upon the traits you might have a harder time because of the extra damage you take.

[Mea Tulpa]

I'm skeptical, SoT, simply because the levels gained from the bad traits wouldn't (I expect) be any larger than the ones lost from the good traits, if both are compared to plain humans. By midgame an advantage of 10 or 15 skill points is really only worth a 2-3 points in skills you care about. Most of the penalties sound worse than that, though we don't have hard data on them.